Right, like the other classes that aren't pure full casters need to solve problems. Or if you took Ascendent step as a utility invocation you could always just levitate yourself up since you have unlimited levitate castings.
I’m not a hundred percent sure what you’re saying. Could you reword that?
I still don't get your complaint, even my wizard would use a rope while out adventuring. Unless its like a day off and I have no concerns for my slots I won't use them on things anyone can handle with a bit of effort and a rope. Heck in many cases I will use magic more as a warlock as I have access to unlimited casts of certain spells.
Utility tier.Warlocks can do things like anyone else, they have access to rituals, they with a invocation have access to some spells on a unlimited level and have access to two floating 1st level rituals they can change on a short rest, they can get a invisible familiar, and then their regular spells. They seem to have more utility than most classes imo.
Social tier. Charisma based class, spells that help here and for cheese, the friends cantrip and change self at will, they are doing fine here.
Combat. Spells and eldritch blast. Again they are fine.
Right, like the other classes that aren't pure full casters need to solve problems. Or if you took Ascendent step as a utility invocation you could always just levitate yourself up since you have unlimited levitate castings.
I’m not a hundred percent sure what you’re saying. Could you reword that?
My overall point is, looking at the warlock playstyle through the lens of a full caster like a wizard where everything is solved by slinging a spell is misguided. They were built to be a flexible hybrid chassis where you can focus in on some specific niches to tilt your playstyle in one direction or another. Maybe it is hexblade and your focus is on wading into melee to deal damage like a martial class so your invocations and spell choices/uses support that, maybe it is the archfey and your choices focus on being a mobile blaster, maybe it's the celestial and your choices focus on utility to support a group so you pick a lot of invocations that allow for unlimited uses of specific utility spells. Each choice results in very specific strengths, but also some weaknesses that make the warlock play more or less like specific types of characters. In the hexblade example, if your spell choices and invocation choices are tilting you toward playing like a martial character more than a spellcaster you should expect all of your interactions in the game to be impacted by that choice not just your in combat interactions.
OK, that all makes sense - but warlock doesn’t even have the option for the same level of utility as a wizard even if it specs in that direction, because of its distinct lack of lower-level spellcasting ability - at the very least in the current UA.
If they spec into melee they wont be the best in melee either. It is a flexible class but if it allowed people to be as good as a specialist in its field why would anyone play the specialists. Though wizard is just overpowered. So saying not as good as them is what you can say about every class in the game.
Right, like the other classes that aren't pure full casters need to solve problems. Or if you took Ascendent step as a utility invocation you could always just levitate yourself up since you have unlimited levitate castings.
I’m not a hundred percent sure what you’re saying. Could you reword that?
I still don't get your complaint, even my wizard would use a rope while out adventuring. Unless its like a day off and I have no concerns for my slots I won't use them on things anyone can handle with a bit of effort and a rope. Heck in many cases I will use magic more as a warlock as I have access to unlimited casts of certain spells.
Utility tier.Warlocks can do things like anyone else, they have access to rituals, they with a invocation have access to some spells on a unlimited level and have access to two floating 1st level rituals they can change on a short rest, they can get a invisible familiar, and then their regular spells. They seem to have more utility than most classes imo.
Social tier. Charisma based class, spells that help here and for cheese, the friends cantrip and change self at will, they are doing fine here.
Combat. Spells and eldritch blast. Again they are fine.
Why would the warlock use spells for social situations or utility when it has barely any? It literally has 2 for the vast majority of an average campaign. 2. That’s not something you would blow on a utility spell. The single spell slot from tome is a crutch, and seems to be designed to work with beguiling defence more than anything else. Wizard has far more spells known and can cast any ritual ones as rituals without preparing them. Also, the invocation at-will spells are very limited in their variety. If warlock is meant to be a pure hybrid, not as good as the dedicated class in the role it wants to fill, that means it would be better off as a flavour note at the end of the class section, because there will always be someone better than they are at what they want to do.
Right, like the other classes that aren't pure full casters need to solve problems. Or if you took Ascendent step as a utility invocation you could always just levitate yourself up since you have unlimited levitate castings.
I’m not a hundred percent sure what you’re saying. Could you reword that?
My overall point is, looking at the warlock playstyle through the lens of a full caster like a wizard where everything is solved by slinging a spell is misguided. They were built to be a flexible hybrid chassis where you can focus in on some specific niches to tilt your playstyle in one direction or another. Maybe it is hexblade and your focus is on wading into melee to deal damage like a martial class so your invocations and spell choices/uses support that, maybe it is the archfey and your choices focus on being a mobile blaster, maybe it's the celestial and your choices focus on utility to support a group so you pick a lot of invocations that allow for unlimited uses of specific utility spells. Each choice results in very specific strengths, but also some weaknesses that make the warlock play more or less like specific types of characters. In the hexblade example, if your spell choices and invocation choices are tilting you toward playing like a martial character more than a spellcaster you should expect all of your interactions in the game to be impacted by that choice not just your in combat interactions.
I'm going to f*** this line up.
The warlock is designed to be flexible caster. The pacts are what has generally defined a the type of warlock. The blade warlock was supposed to be your meld of caster/blaster and melee. The tome warlock was meant to get it's unique flavor on a concept of a "full caster" via being more spell oriented than the others, and the chain warlock... well, even though I want it to be a summoner, it felt more akin to a unique flavor similar to a certain ranger subtype, in it's use of the familiar. Unseen servant, mage hand, beast companion, find familiar, feven technically find steed .. they all tend to fill a niche roleplay/utility role that benefits from having an extra hand helping the party do things that PC's simply can't.
Right, like the other classes that aren't pure full casters need to solve problems. Or if you took Ascendent step as a utility invocation you could always just levitate yourself up since you have unlimited levitate castings.
I’m not a hundred percent sure what you’re saying. Could you reword that?
I still don't get your complaint, even my wizard would use a rope while out adventuring. Unless its like a day off and I have no concerns for my slots I won't use them on things anyone can handle with a bit of effort and a rope. Heck in many cases I will use magic more as a warlock as I have access to unlimited casts of certain spells.
Utility tier.Warlocks can do things like anyone else, they have access to rituals, they with a invocation have access to some spells on a unlimited level and have access to two floating 1st level rituals they can change on a short rest, they can get a invisible familiar, and then their regular spells. They seem to have more utility than most classes imo.
Social tier. Charisma based class, spells that help here and for cheese, the friends cantrip and change self at will, they are doing fine here.
Combat. Spells and eldritch blast. Again they are fine.
Why would the warlock use spells for social situations or utility when it has barely any? It literally has 2 for the vast majority of an average campaign. 2. That’s not something you would blow on a utility spell. The single spell slot from tome is a crutch, and seems to be designed to work with beguiling defence more than anything else. Wizard has far more spells known and can cast any ritual ones as rituals without preparing them. Also, the invocation at-will spells are very limited in their variety. If warlock is meant to be a pure hybrid, not as good as the dedicated class in the role it wants to fill, that means it would be better off as a flavour note at the end of the class section, because there will always be someone better than they are at what they want to do.
Why would a wizard, having more slots does not change the fact you might need them when it matters so why use them to get up a hill. I have got tons of utility out of every warlock I've played. If you have not figured out how to swing that, its on you at this point.
If they spec into melee they wont be the best in melee either. It is a flexible class but if it allowed people to be as good as a specialist in its field why would anyone play the specialists. Though wizard is just overpowered. So saying not as good as them is what you can say about every class in the game.
I mean, paladins are also pretty powerful.
Paladins don't cast 9th level spells. Though if they keep this 3rd melee attack in warlocks will be better in melee than more melee focused classes.
Those are people who want their cake and to eat it too, though. If you want to cast a spell every combat play a wizard or a sorcerer. Warlock is designed around spamming "I attack" with their weapon or "I cast EB" and using their Pact Magic only when needed, it's basically like their version of Action Surge. A fighter without short rests isn't bad, I mean most optimizers don't even factor in short rests and fighter is fine.
That's a pretty unfair characterization of the most players. All this means is that players are more interested in focusing on the spellcasting elements as opposed to the EB spamming. I also find it weird that the most flexible class in DnD is being relegated to 1 specific playstyle. (2 if we are generous.)
I'm also of the opinion that Action Surge should recover on initiative rolls, so *shrug*
Yes. The only reason that Warlocks weren't taking ritual spells in 2014 was because, unless you went Pact of the Tome with Book of Ancient Secrets, you couldn't cast ritual spells ritually.
Now you can, so Warlocks are likely going to take a handful of problem solving spells to spend their spell slots on, and the rest being ritual spells you can cast without needing a spell slot. It's something that every arcane caster can do, but Warlocks are incentivized to do it because of their limited spell slots.
Beast Speech, Comprehend Languages, and Detect Magic are ritual spells that Warlocks (as of UA7) have access to from their spell list.
So maybe I'm weird for this, but the reason I liked the invocations was because I essentially had the effects on 24/7. Using my limited spell preparations and casting them as a ritual doesn't really hit the fantasy I'm looking for.
I am a little baffled by some of this conversation. The half caster worked for me I just acknowledged I was going to spend as many invocations as I could to get power spell bombs because my high level casts were limited but I had plenty of low level utility.
This I acknowledge I am going to need to use invocations for my multi use utility because I have plenty of "bombs" but I am also confused by the idea that the warlock doesnt use utility spells.
You have 2 slots and 6 spells known at level 5 (before counting patron spells) if you are only casting the same 2 spells what was the point of knowing 6 spells? At that point why ARENT you using them on ritual spells?
Honestly, when I pick or cast a Warlock spell. I completely ignore the level of the spell. It is just a question "which of these solves x problem best" and those are the spells I take to solve as many potential issues as possible and when that situation shows up I have the staples easy button and I push it.
Imagine that you are a hexblade, and you have already cast Armor of agathys. You have one spell slot left. In your repertoire of spells you have, I don't know, Spider Climb that could help you reach a chest that is in a high position. You could spend that spell slot of, I don't know, lvl 4. But you don't know when you'll be able to recover it, since the short rests are not automatic in your game. Do you spend your precious spell slot, which you could use in the next fight to cast Shadow of moil? Maybe yes, but the vast majority of people are not going to do it. That doesn't happen if you have several spell slots of different levels. You cast your utility spell when you need to, and still have spell slots for other things.
Ok so invocations 1. Ascendant step is level 5 now so it is reasonable to get. Other worldly leap is level 2 now and will add a lot of verticality to characters. Both would help you get the chest without a spell slot. Beyond that, cast fly instead..... on two of your allies. They get the chest and the next fight they will stay out of harms way allowing enemies to hit you thus benefiting from armor of agathys and it will last an hour. or Cast the spell ask for a short rest, they say no, entreat your patron for 1 minute get a spell back and then cast shadow of moil on the next fight and then everyone can enjoy a short rest after get both your spell slots back.
But, in general warlock utility is not the same as wizard utility. you have your at wills, you have rituals and you have the easy botton short rest spells. Before rituals were given to everyone, and when the at wills were higher levels and you got less of them. These are utility spells I used slots on were charm person, invisibility, suggestion, fly, tongues, remove curse, calm emotions (Fey), Dream and scrying, protection from evil and good, misty step.
Not to mention this scenario the player is using both their spell slots for a single fight.
Those are people who want their cake and to eat it too, though. If you want to cast a spell every combat play a wizard or a sorcerer. Warlock is designed around spamming "I attack" with their weapon or "I cast EB" and using their Pact Magic only when needed, it's basically like their version of Action Surge. A fighter without short rests isn't bad, I mean most optimizers don't even factor in short rests and fighter is fine.
That's a pretty unfair characterization of the most players. All this means is that players are more interested in focusing on the spellcasting elements as opposed to the EB spamming. I also find it weird that the most flexible class in DnD is being relegated to 1 specific playstyle. (2 if we are generous.)
I'm also of the opinion that Action Surge should recover on initiative rolls, so *shrug*
Yes. The only reason that Warlocks weren't taking ritual spells in 2014 was because, unless you went Pact of the Tome with Book of Ancient Secrets, you couldn't cast ritual spells ritually.
Now you can, so Warlocks are likely going to take a handful of problem solving spells to spend their spell slots on, and the rest being ritual spells you can cast without needing a spell slot. It's something that every arcane caster can do, but Warlocks are incentivized to do it because of their limited spell slots.
Beast Speech, Comprehend Languages, and Detect Magic are ritual spells that Warlocks (as of UA7) have access to from their spell list.
So maybe I'm weird for this, but the reason I liked the invocations was because I essentially had the effects on 24/7. Using my limited spell preparations and casting them as a ritual doesn't really hit the fantasy I'm looking for.
Point that out in the playtest then. I think its good they were added as a spell to their list but I alsdo don't think that means it should be removed as a invocation. Maybe buff the invocation a bit due to being able to ritual cast it now. Like pick 3 spells from this list you can cast them at will.
My overall point is, looking at the warlock playstyle through the lens of a full caster like a wizard where everything is solved by slinging a spell is misguided. ...
Soooo...this Mage-group spellcasting class should not be able/allowed to solve its problems by casting spells?
Again - the whole "it has high Charisma and access to social skills, that's AWESOME utility!" thing is stupid. EVERY class has A High Stat and acces to High Stat-aligned skills; that's not "awesome utility", it's core baseline functionality of being a PC. The 2014 warlock y'all are so ferociously clinging to has vastly less low-level/baseline utility than a typical spellcaster while also having way less high-level cast utility, and it doesn't usually have more than a few narrow tricks to try and pad that out.
Again, I'm not bagging on the class from a white room - I've played the damn things. Yes, a skilled player can do fine with a warlock, but y'know what? The warlock player has to work harder for less payoff than any other class in D&D 5e. even monks have their best-in-game mundane mobility to help them solve difficult traversal issues, but warlocks? Warlocks get fewer spells and less casting than any other caster including the half-casters and even the third-caster subclasses, they get fewer class features than anything but a full caster, and saying "warlocks can use skill checks and rope and stuff!" is horseshit because everybody can use skill checks and rope and stuff.
Warlock players have to work harder for less payoff than any other character. if that's your jam and you like having to bust your ass to just get to Average, then fine. Enjoy the 2014 build. It's not disappearing. But STOP trying to block improvements to the class in the 2024 build. The rest of us would like access to all the narrative potential of the class without having to break our backs just to get to "Average", thank you.
My overall point is, looking at the warlock playstyle through the lens of a full caster like a wizard where everything is solved by slinging a spell is misguided. ...
Soooo...this Mage-group spellcasting class should not be able/allowed to solve its problems by casting spells?
Again - the whole "it has high Charisma and access to social skills, that's AWESOME utility!" thing is stupid. EVERY class has A High Stat and acces to High Stat-aligned skills; that's not "awesome utility", it's core baseline functionality of being a PC. The 2014 warlock y'all are so ferociously clinging to has vastly less low-level/baseline utility than a typical spellcaster while also having way less high-level cast utility, and it doesn't usually have more than a few narrow tricks to try and pad that out.
Again, I'm not bagging on the class from a white room - I've played the damn things. Yes, a skilled player can do fine with a warlock, but y'know what? The warlock player has to work harder for less payoff than any other class in D&D 5e. even monks have their best-in-game mundane mobility to help them solve difficult traversal issues, but warlocks? Warlocks get fewer spells and less casting than any other caster including the half-casters and even the third-caster subclasses, they get fewer class features than anything but a full caster, and saying "warlocks can use skill checks and rope and stuff!" is horseshit because everybody can use skill checks and rope and stuff.
Warlock players have to work harder for less payoff than any other character. if that's your jam and you like having to bust your ass to just get to Average, then fine. Enjoy the 2014 build. It's not disappearing. But STOP trying to block improvements to the class in the 2024 build. The rest of us would like access to all the narrative potential of the class without having to break our backs just to get to "Average", thank you.
Said it much better than I could have. I’m far too polite for this forum, apparently.
I think part of the problem is that warlock is crazy good in a few multiclassing combos - fighterlock, sorlock, pallylock and roguelock specifically. And hexblade really cemented Warlock’s reputation as the class for minmaxing multiclass dippers, so it sounds more powerful than it actually is.
But for the hypothetical ‘average player’, who probably doesn’t minmax at all, Warlock is just a sub-par option that doesn’t feel as good. ‘I eldritch blast’ gets real tiring after a while.
My overall point is, looking at the warlock playstyle through the lens of a full caster like a wizard where everything is solved by slinging a spell is misguided. ...
Soooo...this Mage-group spellcasting class should not be able/allowed to solve its problems by casting spells?
Again - the whole "it has high Charisma and access to social skills, that's AWESOME utility!" thing is stupid. EVERY class has A High Stat and acces to High Stat-aligned skills; that's not "awesome utility", it's core baseline functionality of being a PC. The 2014 warlock y'all are so ferociously clinging to has vastly less low-level/baseline utility than a typical spellcaster while also having way less high-level cast utility, and it doesn't usually have more than a few narrow tricks to try and pad that out.
Again, I'm not bagging on the class from a white room - I've played the damn things. Yes, a skilled player can do fine with a warlock, but y'know what? The warlock player has to work harder for less payoff than any other class in D&D 5e. even monks have their best-in-game mundane mobility to help them solve difficult traversal issues, but warlocks? Warlocks get fewer spells and less casting than any other caster including the half-casters and even the third-caster subclasses, they get fewer class features than anything but a full caster, and saying "warlocks can use skill checks and rope and stuff!" is horseshit because everybody can use skill checks and rope and stuff.
Warlock players have to work harder for less payoff than any other character. if that's your jam and you like having to bust your ass to just get to Average, then fine. Enjoy the 2014 build. It's not disappearing. But STOP trying to block improvements to the class in the 2024 build. The rest of us would like access to all the narrative potential of the class without having to break our backs just to get to "Average", thank you.
No one said high charisma makes them good at utility. There are 3 tiers of play exploration, social, combat. The Warlock is capable in all 3. You want to play a wizard with a different hat. Just play the damn wizard and give yourself the flavor text of warlock.
My overall point is, looking at the warlock playstyle through the lens of a full caster like a wizard where everything is solved by slinging a spell is misguided. ...
Soooo...this Mage-group spellcasting class should not be able/allowed to solve its problems by casting spells?
Again - the whole "it has high Charisma and access to social skills, that's AWESOME utility!" thing is stupid. EVERY class has A High Stat and acces to High Stat-aligned skills; that's not "awesome utility", it's core baseline functionality of being a PC. The 2014 warlock y'all are so ferociously clinging to has vastly less low-level/baseline utility than a typical spellcaster while also having way less high-level cast utility, and it doesn't usually have more than a few narrow tricks to try and pad that out.
Again, I'm not bagging on the class from a white room - I've played the damn things. Yes, a skilled player can do fine with a warlock, but y'know what? The warlock player has to work harder for less payoff than any other class in D&D 5e. even monks have their best-in-game mundane mobility to help them solve difficult traversal issues, but warlocks? Warlocks get fewer spells and less casting than any other caster including the half-casters and even the third-caster subclasses, they get fewer class features than anything but a full caster, and saying "warlocks can use skill checks and rope and stuff!" is horseshit because everybody can use skill checks and rope and stuff.
Warlock players have to work harder for less payoff than any other character. if that's your jam and you like having to bust your ass to just get to Average, then fine. Enjoy the 2014 build. It's not disappearing. But STOP trying to block improvements to the class in the 2024 build. The rest of us would like access to all the narrative potential of the class without having to break our backs just to get to "Average", thank you.
No one said high charisma makes them good at utility. There are 3 tiers of play exploration, social, combat. The Warlock is capable in all 3. You want to play a wizard with a different hat. Just play the damn wizard and give yourself the flavor text of warlock.
I want upgrades for the classes, just generally not the OneD&D ones.
The sorcerer, monk, and ranger need some big overhauls. The warlock and the rogue need some quality of life issues worked out so everything's not front loaded and favoring very specific builds and a lot of false options/irrelevant abilities (which is what the ranger and monk suffer from without the kick ass features everyone wants to multiclass dip in for).
The wizard and the bard .. JFC. Any time another class has their own "thing" these two classes seem to need to get them too just cause they're some of the most popular classes and their players therefore whine the loudest.
Fighter is pretty good now, so is barbarian. I can't complain much about druid or cleric though some minor changes might be nice.
The spell list itself needs an overhaul at higher levels because it's just too goddamned overpowered.
I would give wish as the penultimate CLERIC spell and deny it to all others. Granting wish is akin to asking the gods for a favor. Why does a wizard have this again????
No one said high charisma makes them good at utility. There are 3 tiers of play exploration, social, combat. The Warlock is capable in all 3. You want to play a wizard with a different hat. Just play the damn wizard and give yourself the flavor text of warlock.
I wantr this spellcasting class to be able to cast spells. That aren't Eldritch Blast. How often have martial players complained over the years about being bored because the only thing they ever get to do in combat is say "I attack with my weapon", and yet you're pushing ferociously to try and ensure warlocks can't ever do anything but say "I cast Eldritch Blast" because you're obsessed with this hyper-low-magic thing that mandates eight hundred and seventy-three short rests a day before the warlock even simply breaks even with an Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster. if you want the sort of gameplay you're after, just replace Pact Magic with "Roll 1d4-3; this is the number of spell slots you have over the course of your character's entire lifetime."
Or better yet, just eliminate Pact Magic entirely and erase the warlocks ability to cast leveled spells at all in your games. Then you will have the no-spellcasting-spellcaster you seem to be pushing so goddamned hard for, ne?
Or better yet, just eliminate Pact Magic entirely and erase the warlocks ability to cast leveled spells at all in your games. Then you will have the no-spellcasting-spellcaster you seem to be pushing so goddamned hard for, ne?
Sounds good to me. I think that's probably the coolest way to balance Warlocks while keeping them unique; give them complete build-a-bear status, where each invocation is a class feature. Some invocations could grant ways to cast spells, some could give you martial abilities, some could give you eldritch blast and let you focus on increasing its power while others could let you forget it entirely. Maybe make a universal Pact Point resource to fuel their features. It just makes sense for no two pacts to be the same.
I know it's probably an unreasonable expectation, but I think it'd be cool anyways.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Or better yet, just eliminate Pact Magic entirely and erase the warlocks ability to cast leveled spells at all in your games. Then you will have the no-spellcasting-spellcaster you seem to be pushing so goddamned hard for, ne?
Sounds good to me. I think that's probably the coolest way to balance Warlocks while keeping them unique; give them complete build-a-bear status, where each invocation is a class feature. Some invocations could grant ways to cast spells, some could give you martial abilities, some could give you eldritch blast and let you focus on increasing its power while others could let you forget it entirely. Maybe make a universal Pact Point resource to fuel their features. It just makes sense for no two pacts to be the same.
I know it's probably an unreasonable expectation, but I think it'd be cool anyways.
.......
I totally would be on board with this. Grab a scaling eldritch blast invocation(something that adds an extra die each 4 levels), grab ritual casting, grab a scalable familiar (even if it takes extra invocations), then grab two or three at will spells like detect magic, charm, and a polymorph or talk to animals...
I think back when the rogue's stuff came out I was mentioning how I would LOVE doing away with subclasses for the ability to choose a (level appropriate or lower) class feature rather than be forced to take crap skills like panache.
It's a new and different way to go about building a character based on class and I didn't:t think about it but invocations are basically a chance to do that:class specific with it's own restrictions based on what has been taken before and what's available
And don't you think that the Warlock should at least have the possibility of having level 1-2-3 spell slots? Pact tome now gives you a level 1 spell slot (which is almost irrelevant in real gameplay, by the way). Don't you think that should scale with the level? I don't know, a lvl 2 spell slot at level 3, and a lvl 3 spell slot at lvl 5. Or maybe the possibility of buying those spell slots with Eldritch Invocations.
Or better yet, just eliminate Pact Magic entirely and erase the warlocks ability to cast leveled spells at all in your games. Then you will have the no-spellcasting-spellcaster you seem to be pushing so goddamned hard for, ne?
Sounds good to me. I think that's probably the coolest way to balance Warlocks while keeping them unique; give them complete build-a-bear status, where each invocation is a class feature. Some invocations could grant ways to cast spells, some could give you martial abilities, some could give you eldritch blast and let you focus on increasing its power while others could let you forget it entirely. Maybe make a universal Pact Point resource to fuel their features. It just makes sense for no two pacts to be the same.
I know it's probably an unreasonable expectation, but I think it'd be cool anyways.
.......
I totally would be on board with this. Grab a scaling eldritch blast invocation(something that adds an extra die each 4 levels), grab ritual casting, grab a scalable familiar (even if it takes extra invocations), then grab two or three at will spells like detect magic, charm, and a polymorph or talk to animals...
I think back when the rogue's stuff came out I was mentioning how I would LOVE doing away with subclasses for the ability to choose a (level appropriate or lower) class feature rather than be forced to take crap skills like panache.
It's a new and different way to go about building a character based on class and I didn't:t think about it but invocations are basically a chance to do that:class specific with it's own restrictions based on what has been taken before and what's available
Well, in that case maybe you should take a look at Pathfinder 2 which works like this.
I also prefer that character building system than the subclasses, but that's a letter to Santa Claus. WoTC went with the subclassing option for a good reason: To make character building easier and faster.
Or better yet, just eliminate Pact Magic entirely and erase the warlocks ability to cast leveled spells at all in your games. Then you will have the no-spellcasting-spellcaster you seem to be pushing so goddamned hard for, ne?
Sounds good to me. I think that's probably the coolest way to balance Warlocks while keeping them unique; give them complete build-a-bear status, where each invocation is a class feature. Some invocations could grant ways to cast spells, some could give you martial abilities, some could give you eldritch blast and let you focus on increasing its power while others could let you forget it entirely. Maybe make a universal Pact Point resource to fuel their features. It just makes sense for no two pacts to be the same.
I know it's probably an unreasonable expectation, but I think it'd be cool anyways.
.......
I totally would be on board with this. Grab a scaling eldritch blast invocation(something that adds an extra die each 4 levels), grab ritual casting, grab a scalable familiar (even if it takes extra invocations), then grab two or three at will spells like detect magic, charm, and a polymorph or talk to animals...
I think back when the rogue's stuff came out I was mentioning how I would LOVE doing away with subclasses for the ability to choose a (level appropriate or lower) class feature rather than be forced to take crap skills like panache.
It's a new and different way to go about building a character based on class and I didn't:t think about it but invocations are basically a chance to do that:class specific with it's own restrictions based on what has been taken before and what's available
Well, in that case maybe you should take a look at Pathfinder 2 which works like this.
I also prefer that character building system than the subclasses, but that's a letter to Santa Claus. WoTC went with the subclassing option for a good reason: To make character building easier and faster.
I would rather do some unpleasant things like eating razorblades fr a week rather than play pathfinder.
The reason I play 5e is because it's not a crunchy system like the pathfinder games are.
Or better yet, just eliminate Pact Magic entirely and erase the warlocks ability to cast leveled spells at all in your games. Then you will have the no-spellcasting-spellcaster you seem to be pushing so goddamned hard for, ne?
Sounds good to me. I think that's probably the coolest way to balance Warlocks while keeping them unique; give them complete build-a-bear status, where each invocation is a class feature. Some invocations could grant ways to cast spells, some could give you martial abilities, some could give you eldritch blast and let you focus on increasing its power while others could let you forget it entirely. Maybe make a universal Pact Point resource to fuel their features. It just makes sense for no two pacts to be the same.
I know it's probably an unreasonable expectation, but I think it'd be cool anyways.
No "pact points" That's essentially swapping the existing spell slots for basically the same thing, except worse because now even your cantrips cost. Also, look at the monk.
Let the warlock spam like most other non-spell classes, just with spells that scale and are level balanced.
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I still don't get your complaint, even my wizard would use a rope while out adventuring. Unless its like a day off and I have no concerns for my slots I won't use them on things anyone can handle with a bit of effort and a rope. Heck in many cases I will use magic more as a warlock as I have access to unlimited casts of certain spells.
Utility tier.Warlocks can do things like anyone else, they have access to rituals, they with a invocation have access to some spells on a unlimited level and have access to two floating 1st level rituals they can change on a short rest, they can get a invisible familiar, and then their regular spells. They seem to have more utility than most classes imo.
Social tier. Charisma based class, spells that help here and for cheese, the friends cantrip and change self at will, they are doing fine here.
Combat. Spells and eldritch blast. Again they are fine.
If they spec into melee they wont be the best in melee either. It is a flexible class but if it allowed people to be as good as a specialist in its field why would anyone play the specialists. Though wizard is just overpowered. So saying not as good as them is what you can say about every class in the game.
Why would the warlock use spells for social situations or utility when it has barely any? It literally has 2 for the vast majority of an average campaign. 2. That’s not something you would blow on a utility spell. The single spell slot from tome is a crutch, and seems to be designed to work with beguiling defence more than anything else. Wizard has far more spells known and can cast any ritual ones as rituals without preparing them. Also, the invocation at-will spells are very limited in their variety. If warlock is meant to be a pure hybrid, not as good as the dedicated class in the role it wants to fill, that means it would be better off as a flavour note at the end of the class section, because there will always be someone better than they are at what they want to do.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
I'm going to f*** this line up.
The warlock is designed to be flexible caster. The pacts are what has generally defined a the type of warlock. The blade warlock was supposed to be your meld of caster/blaster and melee. The tome warlock was meant to get it's unique flavor on a concept of a "full caster" via being more spell oriented than the others, and the chain warlock... well, even though I want it to be a summoner, it felt more akin to a unique flavor similar to a certain ranger subtype, in it's use of the familiar. Unseen servant, mage hand, beast companion, find familiar, feven technically find steed .. they all tend to fill a niche roleplay/utility role that benefits from having an extra hand helping the party do things that PC's simply can't.
Why would a wizard, having more slots does not change the fact you might need them when it matters so why use them to get up a hill. I have got tons of utility out of every warlock I've played. If you have not figured out how to swing that, its on you at this point.
Paladins don't cast 9th level spells. Though if they keep this 3rd melee attack in warlocks will be better in melee than more melee focused classes.
That's a pretty unfair characterization of the most players. All this means is that players are more interested in focusing on the spellcasting elements as opposed to the EB spamming. I also find it weird that the most flexible class in DnD is being relegated to 1 specific playstyle. (2 if we are generous.)
I'm also of the opinion that Action Surge should recover on initiative rolls, so *shrug*
So maybe I'm weird for this, but the reason I liked the invocations was because I essentially had the effects on 24/7. Using my limited spell preparations and casting them as a ritual doesn't really hit the fantasy I'm looking for.
Ok so invocations 1. Ascendant step is level 5 now so it is reasonable to get. Other worldly leap is level 2 now and will add a lot of verticality to characters. Both would help you get the chest without a spell slot. Beyond that, cast fly instead..... on two of your allies. They get the chest and the next fight they will stay out of harms way allowing enemies to hit you thus benefiting from armor of agathys and it will last an hour. or Cast the spell ask for a short rest, they say no, entreat your patron for 1 minute get a spell back and then cast shadow of moil on the next fight and then everyone can enjoy a short rest after get both your spell slots back.
But, in general warlock utility is not the same as wizard utility. you have your at wills, you have rituals and you have the easy botton short rest spells. Before rituals were given to everyone, and when the at wills were higher levels and you got less of them. These are utility spells I used slots on were charm person, invisibility, suggestion, fly, tongues, remove curse, calm emotions (Fey), Dream and scrying, protection from evil and good, misty step.
Not to mention this scenario the player is using both their spell slots for a single fight.
Point that out in the playtest then. I think its good they were added as a spell to their list but I alsdo don't think that means it should be removed as a invocation. Maybe buff the invocation a bit due to being able to ritual cast it now. Like pick 3 spells from this list you can cast them at will.
Soooo...this Mage-group spellcasting class should not be able/allowed to solve its problems by casting spells?
Again - the whole "it has high Charisma and access to social skills, that's AWESOME utility!" thing is stupid. EVERY class has A High Stat and acces to High Stat-aligned skills; that's not "awesome utility", it's core baseline functionality of being a PC. The 2014 warlock y'all are so ferociously clinging to has vastly less low-level/baseline utility than a typical spellcaster while also having way less high-level cast utility, and it doesn't usually have more than a few narrow tricks to try and pad that out.
Again, I'm not bagging on the class from a white room - I've played the damn things. Yes, a skilled player can do fine with a warlock, but y'know what? The warlock player has to work harder for less payoff than any other class in D&D 5e. even monks have their best-in-game mundane mobility to help them solve difficult traversal issues, but warlocks? Warlocks get fewer spells and less casting than any other caster including the half-casters and even the third-caster subclasses, they get fewer class features than anything but a full caster, and saying "warlocks can use skill checks and rope and stuff!" is horseshit because everybody can use skill checks and rope and stuff.
Warlock players have to work harder for less payoff than any other character. if that's your jam and you like having to bust your ass to just get to Average, then fine. Enjoy the 2014 build. It's not disappearing. But STOP trying to block improvements to the class in the 2024 build. The rest of us would like access to all the narrative potential of the class without having to break our backs just to get to "Average", thank you.
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Said it much better than I could have. I’m far too polite for this forum, apparently.
I think part of the problem is that warlock is crazy good in a few multiclassing combos - fighterlock, sorlock, pallylock and roguelock specifically. And hexblade really cemented Warlock’s reputation as the class for minmaxing multiclass dippers, so it sounds more powerful than it actually is.
But for the hypothetical ‘average player’, who probably doesn’t minmax at all, Warlock is just a sub-par option that doesn’t feel as good. ‘I eldritch blast’ gets real tiring after a while.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
No one said high charisma makes them good at utility. There are 3 tiers of play exploration, social, combat. The Warlock is capable in all 3. You want to play a wizard with a different hat. Just play the damn wizard and give yourself the flavor text of warlock.
I want upgrades for the classes, just generally not the OneD&D ones.
The sorcerer, monk, and ranger need some big overhauls. The warlock and the rogue need some quality of life issues worked out so everything's not front loaded and favoring very specific builds and a lot of false options/irrelevant abilities (which is what the ranger and monk suffer from without the kick ass features everyone wants to multiclass dip in for).
The wizard and the bard .. JFC. Any time another class has their own "thing" these two classes seem to need to get them too just cause they're some of the most popular classes and their players therefore whine the loudest.
Fighter is pretty good now, so is barbarian. I can't complain much about druid or cleric though some minor changes might be nice.
The spell list itself needs an overhaul at higher levels because it's just too goddamned overpowered.
I would give wish as the penultimate CLERIC spell and deny it to all others. Granting wish is akin to asking the gods for a favor. Why does a wizard have this again????
I wantr this spellcasting class to be able to cast spells. That aren't Eldritch Blast. How often have martial players complained over the years about being bored because the only thing they ever get to do in combat is say "I attack with my weapon", and yet you're pushing ferociously to try and ensure warlocks can't ever do anything but say "I cast Eldritch Blast" because you're obsessed with this hyper-low-magic thing that mandates eight hundred and seventy-three short rests a day before the warlock even simply breaks even with an Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster. if you want the sort of gameplay you're after, just replace Pact Magic with "Roll 1d4-3; this is the number of spell slots you have over the course of your character's entire lifetime."
Or better yet, just eliminate Pact Magic entirely and erase the warlocks ability to cast leveled spells at all in your games. Then you will have the no-spellcasting-spellcaster you seem to be pushing so goddamned hard for, ne?
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Sounds good to me. I think that's probably the coolest way to balance Warlocks while keeping them unique; give them complete build-a-bear status, where each invocation is a class feature. Some invocations could grant ways to cast spells, some could give you martial abilities, some could give you eldritch blast and let you focus on increasing its power while others could let you forget it entirely. Maybe make a universal Pact Point resource to fuel their features. It just makes sense for no two pacts to be the same.
I know it's probably an unreasonable expectation, but I think it'd be cool anyways.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
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I totally would be on board with this. Grab a scaling eldritch blast invocation(something that adds an extra die each 4 levels), grab ritual casting, grab a scalable familiar (even if it takes extra invocations), then grab two or three at will spells like detect magic, charm, and a polymorph or talk to animals...
I think back when the rogue's stuff came out I was mentioning how I would LOVE doing away with subclasses for the ability to choose a (level appropriate or lower) class feature rather than be forced to take crap skills like panache.
It's a new and different way to go about building a character based on class and I didn't:t think about it but invocations are basically a chance to do that:class specific with it's own restrictions based on what has been taken before and what's available
And don't you think that the Warlock should at least have the possibility of having level 1-2-3 spell slots? Pact tome now gives you a level 1 spell slot (which is almost irrelevant in real gameplay, by the way). Don't you think that should scale with the level? I don't know, a lvl 2 spell slot at level 3, and a lvl 3 spell slot at lvl 5. Or maybe the possibility of buying those spell slots with Eldritch Invocations.
Well, in that case maybe you should take a look at Pathfinder 2 which works like this.
I also prefer that character building system than the subclasses, but that's a letter to Santa Claus. WoTC went with the subclassing option for a good reason: To make character building easier and faster.
I would rather do some unpleasant things like eating razorblades fr a week rather than play pathfinder.
The reason I play 5e is because it's not a crunchy system like the pathfinder games are.
No "pact points" That's essentially swapping the existing spell slots for basically the same thing, except worse because now even your cantrips cost. Also, look at the monk.
Let the warlock spam like most other non-spell classes, just with spells that scale and are level balanced.