I agree power-wise UA8 monk is fine now thanks to the revision of Stunning Strike, and the extra FoB at 11th level. The problem is that Open Hand monk isn't really giving you anything extra - If you play a monk with no subclass and take the Weapon Mastery feat at 4th level (or a 1 level dip into Fighter), then you'd be functionally indistinguishable from the Open Hand monk 90% of the time (until Quivering Palm that is). It reminds me so much of 2014 Land Druid - it just doesn't really add anything above the base class.
Of all the people I expected to have this difference of opinion with, I'm surprised it's you after your previous comments in other Monk threads.
first off: 3rd level features. Yes, it's true that at level 3 the OHM isn't getting much more utility than another class with Weapon Mastery. Except that there is no equivalent to Addle in the Weapon Mastery rules presented so far, and the OHM Push is significantly more powerful than the WM Push mastery when it connects (further distance pushed, and NO SIZE RESTRICTION). Also, OHM Topple targets a different save than WM Topple. So OHMs actually have 3 Weapon Master style features that are entirely unique to this subclass. Also, unlike other classes with Weapon Master, OH Monks which get a normal WM feature don't need to change weapons to use these unique OHM versions of the Mastery system.
Finally regarding 3rd level features, the 10th level FOB change means that players can attempt to inflict these statuses up to 3 times for a single DP. Not just ona single target, but on multiple targets. And the player still gets their regular Action, which indeed may be used to Topple again or do anything else.
6th level: What does the Monk not really have? An easy way to heal. And it's going to be pretty far forward of the other classes, so that seems pretty important when the party Cleric is still choking on the dust cloud you left behind yourself. Finally, it scales with Monk level and doesn't dip into your DP reserves. Could it be stronger? Yes. But not without costing a resource of some kind, and certainly not without stepping on the toes of the healing-focused Mercy Monk.
11th level feature: Fleet Step is hands down the most broken mobility feature in the game that isn't a teleport. It combines with any other movement features you might have including Unarmored Movement, Acrobatic Movement, any ability to ignore difficult or dangerous terrain you possess and even alternative movement speeds (swimming, flying). And finally, the wording means that you can use it with any other bonus action. You can Dash+Disengage without a DP for only your bonus action (Patient Defense + Fleet Step). You can use dash as a Bonus Action, then Step of the Wind for a 2nd Dash. Yeah, you can triple-Dash a friendly player across a combat map in a single turn. You can Dash+Disengage into the back line of an enemy force and attack someone 5 times for 2DP. These are ridiculous, cost-efficient uses of the kit that core Monk and other Monk subclasses don't receive. They also aren't features that other classes receive either. Show me the Rogue or Ranger that is moving 100 feet and making 5 attacks with the ability to push a creature off a ledge or knock it prone on every hit. I'll wait.
Everything in the OHM subclass kit is built around going fast, hitting hard, and escaping back to the party before things become unmanageable. It's a great melee skirmisher option. It doesn't radically change the core class because it's about turning the core class up to 11 as an outriding skirmisher where other subclasses are looking to change what the Monk represents (Elements as a mid-range battlefield controller, Shadow a fast-moving stealth assassin, or Mercy as a frontline support and control specialist).
Show me the Rogue or Ranger that is moving 100 feet and making 5 attacks with the ability to push a creature off a ledge or knock it prone on every hit. I'll wait.
A Fighter on a Riding Horse (100 gp) can have the horse Dash for 120 ft of movement, and use Action Surge + PAM to make 5 attacks at 5th level, each with the benefits of a weapon mastery. If you play the swap-around weapons game they can get 7 attacks by using Sweep Mastery + Nick Mastery. If they use one of their extra ASIs for Mounted combatant they might also have Adv on all of those attacks.
A Tabaxi Gloomstalker Ranger with 2 levels of Fighter has 40 ft base movement speed, +10 ft from Gloomstalker, doubled by Tabaxi racials, and + 30 ft from Zephyr Strike = 130ft movement speed without provoking AoO, In terms of attacks they get 2 with their Action, 2 with Action Surge. One of these attacks get a +1d8 damage + Adv from Zephyr Strike, all of them can benefit from Weapon Mastery, and one can have a +1d8 + frightened effect from Gloomstalker.
A Paladin with a mount from Find Steed also can have it Dash for 120 ft of movement, and use Weapon Masteries for 1 Polearm attack + 2 Light Weapon Attacks + 1 Sweep Attack + 1 BA Polearm attack = 5 attacks.
Note that in many cases a mount is also capable of carrying two creatures, so both the mounted characters could take a party member with them. Also note that the Paladin get a Flying mount at 13th level (A Bard could get it at 10th level, only 1 level after the Monk gets to... run up walls during their turn...).
PS: Depending on the DM the mounted character might also get to have their mounts attack as well.
Show me the Rogue or Ranger that is moving 100 feet and making 5 attacks with the ability to push a creature off a ledge or knock it prone on every hit. I'll wait.
A Fighter on a Riding Horse (100 gp) can have the horse Dash for 120 ft of movement, and use Action Surge + PAM to make 5 attacks at 5th level, each with the benefits of a weapon mastery. If you play the swap-around weapons game they can get 7 attacks by using Sweep Mastery + Nick Mastery. If they use one of their extra ASIs for Mounted combatant they might also have Adv on all of those attacks.
A Tabaxi Gloomstalker Ranger with 2 levels of Fighter has 40 ft base movement speed, +10 ft from Gloomstalker, doubled by Tabaxi racials, and + 30 ft from Zephyr Strike = 130ft movement speed without provoking AoO, In terms of attacks they get 2 with their Action, 2 with Action Surge. One of these attacks get a +1d8 damage + Adv from Zephyr Strike, all of them can benefit from Weapon Mastery, and one can have a +1d8 + frightened effect from Gloomstalker.
A Paladin with a mount from Find Steed also can have it Dash for 120 ft of movement, and use Weapon Masteries for 1 Polearm attack + 2 Light Weapon Attacks + 1 Sweep Attack + 1 BA Polearm attack = 5 attacks.
Note that in many cases a mount is also capable of carrying two creatures, so both the mounted characters could take a party member with them. Also note that the Paladin get a Flying mount at 13th level (A Valor or Swords Bard could get it at 10th level).
Mounts indeed exist. Monks can also use mounts, so an Open Hand Monk of any race can do this as well. Mount dash for 120ft movement, Monk makes its attacks and BA attacks. With the Weapon Master feat they can use Topple targeting 2 different saves with 4 attacks.
On the next turn, they do it again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
That's 5 DP. After a short rest, or if they use Uncanny Metabolism, they can do it another 5 times.
The point here is that these other classes, with very specific setups, might get to do it once. The OHM gets to do this stuff multiple times every fight if it wants to. It becomes more effective at doing so as it gains later features and more DP. And it doesn't need to rely on a 3rd party creature like a mount or a non-standard racial feature. There's no extra setup. You choose the feature. You spend the DP. It activates. All you needed was a 4th level half-feat. Done.
So after some testing, gonna change the topple effect, too much hassle to keep track of, and watching dice fir new numbers with to little payoff. After one dungeon, I forgot it existed.
changing it to until the creature gets up, + Mod damage on crit.
push d4 and minimum push is fun, addle, I still don't have cause to use much with only two flurry attacks, but the one time used it to set up a save I was satisfied.
How about this for open hand. LEVEL 3: OPEN HAND TECHNIQUE Whenever you hit a creature with an attack granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can impose one of the following effects on that target: Addle. The target can’t make Opportunity Attacks until the start of its next turn and must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or -1d4 from their next Str or Dex saving throw before the start of your next turn. Push. The target is pushed 5ft from you and must succeed on a Strength saving throw, or you push it up to an additional 10 feet away from yourself. Topple. The target’s speed is reduced by 10ft until the end of their next turn, and must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw, or it has the Prone condition.
A Fighter on a Riding Horse (100 gp) can have the horse Dash for 120 ft of movement, and use Action Surge + PAM to make 5 attacks at 5th level, each with the benefits of a weapon mastery.
Yes, I'm sure the Riding Horse's 10 AC and 13 HP will be very useful at level 5, just as I'm sure you can bring a horse with you into every single dungeon and encounter.
How about this for open hand. LEVEL 3: OPEN HAND TECHNIQUE Whenever you hit a creature with an attack granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can impose one of the following effects on that target: Addle. The target can’t make Opportunity Attacks until the start of its next turn and must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or -1d4 from their next Str or Dex saving throw before the start of your next turn. Push. The target is pushed 5ft from you and must succeed on a Strength saving throw, or you push it up to an additional 10 feet away from yourself. Topple. The target’s speed is reduced by 10ft until the end of their next turn, and must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw, or it has the Prone condition.
fairly similar, but scaled back slightly, I prefer mine, but these are acceptable. I think OH needs some damage somewhere though. Its not getting any sub damage boost until 17, which is super rare.
topple, I thought of the lesser movement, but not as a guaranteed effect. Works a bit better guaranteed, because prone, it would only reduce it by half as much, but with it proccing on hit, it can be useful when it doesnt land, and less useful when it does.
A Fighter on a Riding Horse (100 gp) can have the horse Dash for 120 ft of movement, and use Action Surge + PAM to make 5 attacks at 5th level, each with the benefits of a weapon mastery.
Yes, I'm sure the Riding Horse's 10 AC and 13 HP will be very useful at level 5, just as I'm sure you can bring a horse with you into every single dungeon and encounter.
Strange that people think Find Steed is an awesome spell, and I see paladins using mounts in combat on the regular.
PS anywhere you can't take a mount, will be so cramped that you don't need a 100 ft move speed anyway.
How about this for open hand. LEVEL 3: OPEN HAND TECHNIQUE Whenever you hit a creature with an attack granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can impose one of the following effects on that target: Addle. The target can’t make Opportunity Attacks until the start of its next turn and must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or -1d4 from their next Str or Dex saving throw before the start of your next turn. Push. The target is pushed 5ft from you and must succeed on a Strength saving throw, or you push it up to an additional 10 feet away from yourself. Topple. The target’s speed is reduced by 10ft until the end of their next turn, and must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw, or it has the Prone condition.
I was just thinking. What if you get rid of push and topple and OHT allows you to use the Unarmed Strike Shove option without losing out on the damage. Then add a third unique option. Maybe a slow type effect (like the 1DD slow condition they had early on)
Edit: One thing I put in the survey was if OHT could be used on any unarmed attack and not just on FoB. I think I included monk weapons in that statement in one part. But not tying OHT to FoB would widen out what the Open Hand monk can do and when and not cost a DP if you use it outside of FoB.
How about this for open hand. LEVEL 3: OPEN HAND TECHNIQUE Whenever you hit a creature with an attack granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can impose one of the following effects on that target: Addle. The target can’t make Opportunity Attacks until the start of its next turn and must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or -1d4 from their next Str or Dex saving throw before the start of your next turn. Push. The target is pushed 5ft from you and must succeed on a Strength saving throw, or you push it up to an additional 10 feet away from yourself. Topple. The target’s speed is reduced by 10ft until the end of their next turn, and must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw, or it has the Prone condition.
I like it, personally I would change the effect for Addle in case the wisdom save fails, making it so that if it fails, the affected creature drops an object (or creature) that it is holding with its hands (or other extremities that can also grasp). Thus being able to release Weapons, arcane/Druilic focus, bag of components, A grappled creature, etc.
Flurry of Blows should possibly indicate that "Bonus Unarmed Strike" is part free DP, of that feature, so the open-handed monk could take minimal advantage of the level 3 subclass feature if he DON'T want to spend DP, or doesn't have it.
A Fighter on a Riding Horse (100 gp) can have the horse Dash for 120 ft of movement, and use Action Surge + PAM to make 5 attacks at 5th level, each with the benefits of a weapon mastery.
Yes, I'm sure the Riding Horse's 10 AC and 13 HP will be very useful at level 5, just as I'm sure you can bring a horse with you into every single dungeon and encounter.
Strange that people think Find Steed is an awesome spell, and I see paladins using mounts in combat on the regular.
PS anywhere you can't take a mount, will be so cramped that you don't need a 100 ft move speed anyway.
The new version of Find Steed has built-in scaling and passive healing; even the old version though is easily replaceable when lost by recasting. It can also understand you instead of needing Animal Handling checks. A fighter buying a riding horse in town has none of these advantages.
As for "anywhere you can't take a mount would be cramped anyway," that's just not true. For example, anywhere that is only accessible by ladder or rope would be unsuitable for a riding horse, regardless of how big the location is once you've traversed that entry point. A paladin could dismiss their steed and then resummon it on the other side, while a Fighter with a Riding Horse can't do that. Your comparison is specious.
How about this for open hand. LEVEL 3: OPEN HAND TECHNIQUE Whenever you hit a creature with an attack granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can impose one of the following effects on that target: Addle. The target can’t make Opportunity Attacks until the start of its next turn and must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or -1d4 from their next Str or Dex saving throw before the start of your next turn. Push. The target is pushed 5ft from you and must succeed on a Strength saving throw, or you push it up to an additional 10 feet away from yourself. Topple. The target’s speed is reduced by 10ft until the end of their next turn, and must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw, or it has the Prone condition.
I like it, personally I would change the effect for Addle in case the wisdom save fails, making it so that if it fails, the affected creature drops an object (or creature) that it is holding with its hands (or other extremities that can also grasp). Thus being able to release Weapons, arcane/Druilic focus, bag of components, A grappled creature, etc.
Flurry of Blows should possibly indicate that "Bonus Unarmed Strike" is part free DP, of that feature, so the open-handed monk could take minimal advantage of the level 3 subclass feature if he DON'T want to spend DP, or doesn't have it.
I could accept this change:
Whenever you hit a creature with an attack granted by your Flurry of Blows or a Bonus Action Unarmed Strike, you can impose one of the following effects on that target: Addle. The target can’t make Opportunity Attacks until the start of its next turn and must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or they drop one object/creature being held/grappled (you choose which when they fail the save). Push. The target is pushed 5ft from you and must succeed on a Strength saving throw, or you push it up to an additional 10 feet away from yourself. Topple. The target’s speed is reduced by 10ft until the end of their next turn, and must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw, or it has the Prone condition.
Maybe I should reword it so the saving throw effects only activate on spending DP for FoB, but you get the part without the saving throw on every bonus action unarmed attack. Then again maybe I’m overthinking and it’s fine to just work.
Your Addle and Topple are way too powerful, especially for level 3 features.
For Push, entering the enemy's space is unnecessary in 5e since you can move freely before and after attacks. Players who want to follow someone they're pushing can do so, and the players who don't want to have that option too.
I don't mine WoB restoring DP, but tying it to a meta concept like encounter difficulty is far too gamist, on top of potentially revealing information the DM might not want to.
The proposed Addle is of about similar power (and less versatility) to the Silvery Barbs spell.
1- Silvery Barbs is a broken spell, and starting to set the standard for what's more broken only escalates the power curve to the point where soon you'll have superheroes in tier 1. Be cautious with this kind of logic.
2- Even worse, the effect is stronger than Silvery Barbs for the monk's purpose. Whether because Silvery consumes the reaction or because stunning is the strongest condition in the game, and -d4 is too potent for this purpose.
3- Lastly, this effect would still stack with Silvery Barbs, and bane from another player, and I don't need to continue to convey the level of brokenness this reaches.
Your Addle and Topple are way too powerful, especially for level 3 features.
For Push, entering the enemy's space is unnecessary in 5e since you can move freely before and after attacks. Players who want to follow someone they're pushing can do so, and the players who don't want to have that option too.
I don't mine WoB restoring DP, but tying it to a meta concept like encounter difficulty is far too gamist, on top of potentially revealing information the DM might not want to.
The proposed Addle is of about similar power (and less versatility) to the Silvery Barbs spell.
1- Silvery Barbs is a broken spell, and starting to set the standard for what's more broken only escalates the power curve to the point where soon you'll have superheroes in tier 1. Be cautious with this kind of logic.
2- Even worse, the effect is stronger than Silvery Barbs for the monk's purpose. Whether because Silvery consumes the reaction or because stunning is the strongest condition in the game, and -d4 is too potent for this purpose.
3- Lastly, this effect would still stack with Silvery Barbs, and bane from another player, and I don't need to continue to convey the level of brokenness this reaches.
1)I'm not sure at what point you read this, but I changed it to be a similar on hit effect to mind sliver. which is a -d4 to the next save. This is not a slippery slope, and its not even that powerful.
2) stun is far from the strongest condition in the game. You have paralyze, which is literally a 100% better version of stun. You have sleep, which lasts for a minute, sets up a guaranteed crit hit, you can literally end encounters with just sleep. You have suggest when can make npcs do things you wish them to do. You have dominate person where you literally control another npc.
-d4 to your next save is a non damage rider on a cantrip. That tells you exactly what its power budget is in the mind of the designers.(-2 damage per dice of firebolt) its not an unknown power it is literally between 5 and 20% better chance to land an effect auto used up, expended on failure. And since in my skill, its a save, its actually less likely to land than mind sliver. 65% to land the hit, then about 50% to proc the effect. 32.5% chance to land, and it might increase your stunning chance from 40% to 50%
3. mind sliver stacks with the same things and is a cantrip available to essentially every character(lvl 1 feat magic initiate) in the game. It has a higher rate of success.3 players using their various resources to effect one enemy is not OP, its normal gameplay.
And at this point I haven't just theory crafted this, i have playtested it. It Is not OP In any way, shape or form. It was almost never the best choice even with the buff. A grappler OH monk, (which is almost the only reason to play OH instead of using a feat or MC) Will spend the far majority of your FB attacks trying to get prone. Prone gives advantage to all melee users attacks, and disadvantage to attacks on the grappler. In general you can grapple up to 2 enemies.
In the occasions when you have already proned, or don't need to for whatever reason, the guaranteed +d4 and push was likely more useful. I uses this about three times from level 4-7. It was actually useful one of those 3 times. once they made the save, once its d4 had no effect, and once it mattered. Thats actually a higher rate of return than expected. As its 32% chance to land, with a 20% chance that it will change the result of a roll.
the true main benefit of the change in play, is it made you 'feel' like you could set up a combo, or do something useful. Like, I already have this guy proned, I don't want to move them, and maybe I can do something to set up something else that might matter, rather than having no particular synergies at all.
I'll also say after playtesting, I dropped the bonus to prone, not because it was OP, but because it was too rare for me to remember it, and I was basically attempting proning all the time already. Its a bit boring as is, and similar to topple, but, your gonna do it anyway, and the crits won't happen enough to make it memorable in TT.
actually go playtest -d4 next save before monster's next turn and tell me how often it actually made a difference in battle, and how often it wouldn't have been better to do something else.
Your Addle and Topple are way too powerful, especially for level 3 features.
For Push, entering the enemy's space is unnecessary in 5e since you can move freely before and after attacks. Players who want to follow someone they're pushing can do so, and the players who don't want to have that option too.
I don't mine WoB restoring DP, but tying it to a meta concept like encounter difficulty is far too gamist, on top of potentially revealing information the DM might not want to.
The proposed Addle is of about similar power (and less versatility) to the Silvery Barbs spell.
1- Silvery Barbs is a broken spell, and starting to set the standard for what's more broken only escalates the power curve to the point where soon you'll have superheroes in tier 1. Be cautious with this kind of logic.
2- Even worse, the effect is stronger than Silvery Barbs for the monk's purpose. Whether because Silvery consumes the reaction or because stunning is the strongest condition in the game, and -d4 is too potent for this purpose.
3- Lastly, this effect would still stack with Silvery Barbs, and bane from another player, and I don't need to continue to convey the level of brokenness this reaches.
1)I'm not sure at what point you read this, but I changed it to be a similar on hit effect to mind sliver. which is a -d4 to the next save. This is not a slippery slope, and its not even that powerful.
2) stun is far from the strongest condition in the game. You have paralyze, which is literally a 100% better version of stun. You have sleep, which lasts for a minute, sets up a guaranteed crit hit, you can literally end encounters with just sleep. You have suggest when can make npcs do things you wish them to do. You have dominate person where you literally control another npc.
-d4 to your next save is a non damage rider on a cantrip. That tells you exactly what its power budget is in the mind of the designers.(-2 damage per dice of firebolt) its not an unknown power it is literally between 5 and 20% better chance to land an effect auto used up, expended on failure. And since in my skill, its a save, its actually less likely to land than mind sliver. 65% to land the hit, then about 50% to proc the effect. 32.5% chance to land, and it might increase your stunning chance from 40% to 50%
3. mind sliver stacks with the same things and is a cantrip available to essentially every character(lvl 1 feat magic initiate) in the game. It has a higher rate of success.3 players using their various resources to effect one enemy is not OP, its normal gameplay.
And at this point I haven't just theory crafted this, i have playtested it. It Is not OP In any way, shape or form. It was almost never the best choice even with the buff. A grappler OH monk, (which is almost the only reason to play OH instead of using a feat or MC) Will spend the far majority of your FB attacks trying to get prone. Prone gives advantage to all melee users attacks, and disadvantage to attacks on the grappler. In general you can grapple up to 2 enemies.
In the occasions when you have already proned, or don't need to for whatever reason, the guaranteed +d4 and push was likely more useful. I uses this about three times from level 4-7. It was actually useful one of those 3 times. once they made the save, once its d4 had no effect, and once it mattered. Thats actually a higher rate of return than expected. As its 32% chance to land, with a 20% chance that it will change the result of a roll.
the true main benefit of the change in play, is it made you 'feel' like you could set up a combo, or do something useful. Like, I already have this guy proned, I don't want to move them, and maybe I can do something to set up something else that might matter, rather than having no particular synergies at all.
I'll also say after playtesting, I dropped the bonus to prone, not because it was OP, but because it was too rare for me to remember it, and I was basically attempting proning all the time already. Its a bit boring as is, and similar to topple, but, your gonna do it anyway, and the crits won't happen enough to make it memorable in TT.
actually go playtest -d4 next save before monster's next turn and tell me how often it actually made a difference in battle, and how often it wouldn't have been better to do something else.
Well, in 5e, I use my Open Hand with Fey Touched to have access to Bane and focus on those affected by the spell. That alone was already strong. If I manage to scale it with -1d4, I believe it will become even stronger.
Regarding stun being the strongest condition in the game, tell me how many magical items free you from the stun condition and how many monsters are immune to this condition. :)
I played an Open Hand monk for 3 years on a high-turnover server with access to items, so I could test some builds and the monk's scaling. While I appreciate the changes that are coming, your proposals significantly increase the power curve.
Getting a critical hit on a 10 is extremely powerful. You try to look at isolated probability numbers, but it's unlikely that a powerful/medium-difficulty creature would be hit by a 10. Besides increasing the hit range, you are also expanding the critical range. It's a very strong synergy and above-average with all attacking characters.
stun is far from the strongest condition in the game. You have paralyze, which is literally a 100% better version of stun. You have sleep, which lasts for a minute, sets up a guaranteed crit hit, you can literally end encounters with just sleep. You have suggest when can make npcs do things you wish them to do. You have dominate person where you literally control another npc.
LOL, someone's been spending too much time theory crafting and not playing the game. Sleep will maybe end one medium encounter at level 1 if you roll well, by level 3 it will maybe drop one monster that has already be hit a few times, by level 5 it will do nothing ever, and Sleep only requires 1 enemy action to wake the sleeper back up (or less if the enemy uses damage to wake them up) which usually means on the next enemy turn in the initiative order the sleeper is back awake.
Paralysis requires a 5th level spellslot most of the time, monsters are 5x more likely to be immune to paralysis than to stunned (275 vs 58), and 9 have Freedom of Movement on their spell list allowing them to make themselves and their allies immune to paralysis. Plus Paralysis requires concentration so is easily broken by the enemies attacking the caster. It can also be Dispelled, Counterspelled, or cured by Lesser Restoration.
Domination is a Charm effect which means 430 monsters are flat out immune (8x more than stunned), while 41 have advantage against it, in addition to Dispel Magic, Counterspell, and breaking concentration, it can be cured by Greater Restoration, suppressed by Calm Emotions, or broken by the creature taking any damage. It also requires either a 5th or 8th level spellslot to pull off, which is an awful trade considering one slap can break it.
In contrast, there is Aura of Purity for Adv vs Stunned, or Power Word Heal to cure it. The only other way to break it is Mercy Monk's Hand of Healing.
stun is far from the strongest condition in the game. You have paralyze, which is literally a 100% better version of stun. You have sleep, which lasts for a minute, sets up a guaranteed crit hit, you can literally end encounters with just sleep. You have suggest when can make npcs do things you wish them to do. You have dominate person where you literally control another npc.
LOL, someone's been spending too much time theory crafting and not playing the game. Sleep will maybe end one medium encounter at level 1 if you roll well, by level 3 it will maybe drop one monster that has already be hit a few times, by level 5 it will do nothing ever, and Sleep only requires 1 enemy action to wake the sleeper back up (or less if the enemy uses damage to wake them up) which usually means on the next enemy turn in the initiative order the sleeper is back awake.
Paralysis requires a 5th level spellslot most of the time, monsters are 5x more likely to be immune to paralysis than to stunned (275 vs 58), and 9 have Freedom of Movement on their spell list allowing them to make themselves and their allies immune to paralysis. Plus Paralysis requires concentration so is easily broken by the enemies attacking the caster. It can also be Dispelled, Counterspelled, or cured by Lesser Restoration.
Domination is a Charm effect which means 430 monsters are flat out immune (8x more than stunned), while 41 have advantage against it, in addition to Dispel Magic, Counterspell, and breaking concentration, it can be cured by Greater Restoration, suppressed by Calm Emotions, or broken by the creature taking any damage. It also requires either a 5th or 8th level spellslot to pull off, which is an awful trade considering one slap can break it.
In contrast, there is Aura of Purity for Adv vs Stunned, or Power Word Heal to cure it. The only other way to break it is Mercy Monk's Hand of Healing.
I said sleep can end an encounter, not sleep always ends an encounter.
How effective sleep is depends on the tactics of how it is used. A monster waking another monster is STILL a monster wasting one of its turns. you have still gained the value of sleep. Whether a monster is even able to attempt to wake a creature is based on your tactics.
A monster waking another monster versus via damage is likely performing a critical hit on that monster and wasting damage them.
Also, there is sleep the spell and sleep the condition, There are multiple sources of sleep, just as there a multiple sources of stun.
the contention was that stun is the most powerful condition, the context being that being able to give a -2.5 to a stun is the most valuable condition you can place on a creature. Its objectively not the most powerful condition. That's not really debateable. Much of your points are talking about your perceived value of specific spells, or how to obtain them, rather than the effectiveness of the condition. You are debating the value proposition of stun for a monk versus other classes, that is a totally different discussion.
sleep; lasts the duration, or until the enemy takes damage, or someone gives up an action to wake them. guarantees critical to next hit. monk stun lasts until next turn. If I could choose between stun, or sleep on hit as a monk. I would choose sleep. This is not even a question to me which is a more valuable condition. Stun is useful, but at the end of the day, its advantage + enemy loses one turn. sleep is a better tactical tool.
paralysis is objectively stronger, thats not up for debate. 5th level is irrelevant to a discussion on the power of the condition. Its also not the lowest source if the condition.
how easy it is to break concentration is a tactical and build concern. essentially meaning, the odds can be zero, or the odds be greater.
monk stun lasts less than a single round, and only gives advantage .so the value of breaking it is not high. Once again, if I could choose between monk having paralyze on hit or stun on hit. No competition. I would give up stun in a heartbeat.
also, if you are going to evaluate condition power based on number of susceptible monsters, the proper metric would be amount immune/total number of monsters. not relative to each other. For example let's say one condition only has 2 enemies immune, and another has 30. you can say wow 15 times as many enemies are susceptible! however given a pool of 1600 monsters, they are both effective on 98%+ monsters, who cares.
the numbers I can find for official monsters had 93/799 for Para and 20/799 for stun, or you can say Para effective against 89% of enemies and stun effective against 97% of enemies.
considering that paralyze is almost literally twice as effective (guaranteed crits, + save to escape). I think 89% versus 97 is worth it, and I don't think and honest player would claim that it not a way more valuable condition.
Your Addle and Topple are way too powerful, especially for level 3 features.
For Push, entering the enemy's space is unnecessary in 5e since you can move freely before and after attacks. Players who want to follow someone they're pushing can do so, and the players who don't want to have that option too.
I don't mine WoB restoring DP, but tying it to a meta concept like encounter difficulty is far too gamist, on top of potentially revealing information the DM might not want to.
The proposed Addle is of about similar power (and less versatility) to the Silvery Barbs spell.
1- Silvery Barbs is a broken spell, and starting to set the standard for what's more broken only escalates the power curve to the point where soon you'll have superheroes in tier 1. Be cautious with this kind of logic.
2- Even worse, the effect is stronger than Silvery Barbs for the monk's purpose. Whether because Silvery consumes the reaction or because stunning is the strongest condition in the game, and -d4 is too potent for this purpose.
3- Lastly, this effect would still stack with Silvery Barbs, and bane from another player, and I don't need to continue to convey the level of brokenness this reaches.
1)I'm not sure at what point you read this, but I changed it to be a similar on hit effect to mind sliver. which is a -d4 to the next save. This is not a slippery slope, and its not even that powerful.
2) stun is far from the strongest condition in the game. You have paralyze, which is literally a 100% better version of stun. You have sleep, which lasts for a minute, sets up a guaranteed crit hit, you can literally end encounters with just sleep. You have suggest when can make npcs do things you wish them to do. You have dominate person where you literally control another npc.
-d4 to your next save is a non damage rider on a cantrip. That tells you exactly what its power budget is in the mind of the designers.(-2 damage per dice of firebolt) its not an unknown power it is literally between 5 and 20% better chance to land an effect auto used up, expended on failure. And since in my skill, its a save, its actually less likely to land than mind sliver. 65% to land the hit, then about 50% to proc the effect. 32.5% chance to land, and it might increase your stunning chance from 40% to 50%
3. mind sliver stacks with the same things and is a cantrip available to essentially every character(lvl 1 feat magic initiate) in the game. It has a higher rate of success.3 players using their various resources to effect one enemy is not OP, its normal gameplay.
And at this point I haven't just theory crafted this, i have playtested it. It Is not OP In any way, shape or form. It was almost never the best choice even with the buff. A grappler OH monk, (which is almost the only reason to play OH instead of using a feat or MC) Will spend the far majority of your FB attacks trying to get prone. Prone gives advantage to all melee users attacks, and disadvantage to attacks on the grappler. In general you can grapple up to 2 enemies.
In the occasions when you have already proned, or don't need to for whatever reason, the guaranteed +d4 and push was likely more useful. I uses this about three times from level 4-7. It was actually useful one of those 3 times. once they made the save, once its d4 had no effect, and once it mattered. Thats actually a higher rate of return than expected. As its 32% chance to land, with a 20% chance that it will change the result of a roll.
the true main benefit of the change in play, is it made you 'feel' like you could set up a combo, or do something useful. Like, I already have this guy proned, I don't want to move them, and maybe I can do something to set up something else that might matter, rather than having no particular synergies at all.
I'll also say after playtesting, I dropped the bonus to prone, not because it was OP, but because it was too rare for me to remember it, and I was basically attempting proning all the time already. Its a bit boring as is, and similar to topple, but, your gonna do it anyway, and the crits won't happen enough to make it memorable in TT.
actually go playtest -d4 next save before monster's next turn and tell me how often it actually made a difference in battle, and how often it wouldn't have been better to do something else.
Well, in 5e, I use my Open Hand with Fey Touched to have access to Bane and focus on those affected by the spell. That alone was already strong. If I manage to scale it with -1d4, I believe it will become even stronger.
Regarding stun being the strongest condition in the game, tell me how many magical items free you from the stun condition and how many monsters are immune to this condition. :)
I played an Open Hand monk for 3 years on a high-turnover server with access to items, so I could test some builds and the monk's scaling. While I appreciate the changes that are coming, your proposals significantly increase the power curve.
Getting a critical hit on a 10 is extremely powerful. You try to look at isolated probability numbers, but it's unlikely that a powerful/medium-difficulty creature would be hit by a 10. Besides increasing the hit range, you are also expanding the critical range. It's a very strong synergy and above-average with all attacking characters.
You get apparently enjoy the idea of a powerful combo. The reality is you apparently chose a feat, which could have been +1AC/KIsave or +1AC/DMG/Accuracy. In onednd, charger, grappler, or weapon mastery, in exchange for being able to misty step once per day, and use bane once per day. I would certainly hope that its effectiveness was extremely high, and would not clash with mind sliver, seeing as how you paid a hefty price, for a very limited use.
but regardless, the fact remains, bane already stacks with mindsliver, and it apparently has not caused issues. Saying that its going to be OP because a monk is doing it instead of a sorcerer makes no logical sense.
Why are you talking about items that free you from the stun condition? what are the odds that monsters are carrying this items? If DMs are going around giving monsters anti condition items, they could as easily just add can't be stunned to their stat blocks. If you primarily are playing pvp, thats not what dnd 5e's design focus is, and you will have to homebrew and alter rules regardless.
If you are bringing up monster immunity, you'll have to outline your argument, the fact that more are immune alone doesn't really mean much. What the numbers? whats the totals? how common are these monsters who are immune? how often do they appear in modules. Then you at least have a starting point from which you might consider its power, versus the amount of creatures susceptible to it.
As far as increasing your accuracy by making 10 an auto crit, it is at absolute best case scenario, a 5% increase in accuracy. That is never an OP increase. but the reality is, accuracy is such that most of the time if you roll a 10, you were going to hit anyway.
at level 1. the monster needs 16 AC for this to even have a chance of mattering. at level 20 they need 23AC.(assuming no magical items)
The list of monsters in 5e with 23 AC is terrasque (on the list I was looking at 1/428)
the % of monsters you won't hit with a 10 varies as you level. but for your Proper CR, its basically gonna be between 4% and 9% in t1/ t2 and lower than 3% t3/T4
so gaining that much accuracy, against that number of opponents is anegiligable effect.
your statement on difficulty and AC is TOTALLY off base btw.
first off difficulty and AC are not highly correlated. High AC enemies, for their level are more about monster type than difficulty. Some monsters are difficult because they swarm, some are difficult because of resistances, some are deadly because of DPR, some special abilities.
High AC enemies are usually not going to have the highest damage or HP for their CR.
your previous experience is nice, but i don't think you have a valid mathematical, or actual play experience critique here. You haven't playtested it(these changes), and seen it it dominate or trivialize encounters, and you already admitted that the math shows its not a big deal.
your critiques are gut reactions, and a general feeling of dread.
but a character being able to have a 50% chance to make one monster 10% more susceptible to one save, automatically consumed success or fail, is not OP. It already exists, and most people who have the capability choose other options. Which is more common, fire bolt or mind sliver?
You're moving the goal posts so much here, that I don't know what you are arguing now. We are discussing whether giving Monk a debuff to saving throws is OP, thus the valid comparisons are Monk's Stunning Strike vs battlefield control spells. Not stunning strike vs so.e hypothetical ability that would be even more brokenly OP that what you presented here.
Firebolt is more popular than mind whip because Dead is the best condition in the game.
Gwar1, I think I understand why you're not seeing the issue with adding riders to Addle, but honestly getting through some of your posts to understand your main point is a little difficult. You're going off into some kind of tangent over the usefulness of the sleep condition, or maybe it was the sleep spell, or maybe it's both, followed by another for the paralyze condition which most characters including monks won't even have access to so its relative strength is moot... when at the end of the day the main point is that your proposal for Open Hand Technique is still too strong.
You're adding a rider on top of Addle. which is itself a rider. You might think a cantrip rider is reasonable because cantrips are resourceless, whereas Addle effectively costs a resource because it's part of FoB (say, 1/2 or 1/3 of a ki* point depending on how you count it) - but Addle has other things going for it that tip the power budget scales out of whack. There's no opportunity cost because it's part of the main thing OH monks will be doing every round anyway; the damage accompanying flurry already justified its cost even before Addle itself, never mind before whatever rider you're adding on top; unlike most cantrips, flurrying leaves your action free; and as if all that weren't enough, the OH monk can throw stunning fist on top if they have the ki to spare, for no cost other than another ki. So yes, even a cantrip rider is still too much rider.
*I know, it's discipline now, but ki is faster to type
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Of all the people I expected to have this difference of opinion with, I'm surprised it's you after your previous comments in other Monk threads.
first off: 3rd level features. Yes, it's true that at level 3 the OHM isn't getting much more utility than another class with Weapon Mastery. Except that there is no equivalent to Addle in the Weapon Mastery rules presented so far, and the OHM Push is significantly more powerful than the WM Push mastery when it connects (further distance pushed, and NO SIZE RESTRICTION). Also, OHM Topple targets a different save than WM Topple. So OHMs actually have 3 Weapon Master style features that are entirely unique to this subclass. Also, unlike other classes with Weapon Master, OH Monks which get a normal WM feature don't need to change weapons to use these unique OHM versions of the Mastery system.
Finally regarding 3rd level features, the 10th level FOB change means that players can attempt to inflict these statuses up to 3 times for a single DP. Not just ona single target, but on multiple targets. And the player still gets their regular Action, which indeed may be used to Topple again or do anything else.
6th level: What does the Monk not really have? An easy way to heal. And it's going to be pretty far forward of the other classes, so that seems pretty important when the party Cleric is still choking on the dust cloud you left behind yourself. Finally, it scales with Monk level and doesn't dip into your DP reserves. Could it be stronger? Yes. But not without costing a resource of some kind, and certainly not without stepping on the toes of the healing-focused Mercy Monk.
11th level feature: Fleet Step is hands down the most broken mobility feature in the game that isn't a teleport. It combines with any other movement features you might have including Unarmored Movement, Acrobatic Movement, any ability to ignore difficult or dangerous terrain you possess and even alternative movement speeds (swimming, flying). And finally, the wording means that you can use it with any other bonus action. You can Dash+Disengage without a DP for only your bonus action (Patient Defense + Fleet Step). You can use dash as a Bonus Action, then Step of the Wind for a 2nd Dash. Yeah, you can triple-Dash a friendly player across a combat map in a single turn. You can Dash+Disengage into the back line of an enemy force and attack someone 5 times for 2DP. These are ridiculous, cost-efficient uses of the kit that core Monk and other Monk subclasses don't receive. They also aren't features that other classes receive either. Show me the Rogue or Ranger that is moving 100 feet and making 5 attacks with the ability to push a creature off a ledge or knock it prone on every hit. I'll wait.
Everything in the OHM subclass kit is built around going fast, hitting hard, and escaping back to the party before things become unmanageable. It's a great melee skirmisher option. It doesn't radically change the core class because it's about turning the core class up to 11 as an outriding skirmisher where other subclasses are looking to change what the Monk represents (Elements as a mid-range battlefield controller, Shadow a fast-moving stealth assassin, or Mercy as a frontline support and control specialist).
A Fighter on a Riding Horse (100 gp) can have the horse Dash for 120 ft of movement, and use Action Surge + PAM to make 5 attacks at 5th level, each with the benefits of a weapon mastery. If you play the swap-around weapons game they can get 7 attacks by using Sweep Mastery + Nick Mastery. If they use one of their extra ASIs for Mounted combatant they might also have Adv on all of those attacks.
A Tabaxi Gloomstalker Ranger with 2 levels of Fighter has 40 ft base movement speed, +10 ft from Gloomstalker, doubled by Tabaxi racials, and + 30 ft from Zephyr Strike = 130ft movement speed without provoking AoO, In terms of attacks they get 2 with their Action, 2 with Action Surge. One of these attacks get a +1d8 damage + Adv from Zephyr Strike, all of them can benefit from Weapon Mastery, and one can have a +1d8 + frightened effect from Gloomstalker.
A Paladin with a mount from Find Steed also can have it Dash for 120 ft of movement, and use Weapon Masteries for 1 Polearm attack + 2 Light Weapon Attacks + 1 Sweep Attack + 1 BA Polearm attack = 5 attacks.
Note that in many cases a mount is also capable of carrying two creatures, so both the mounted characters could take a party member with them. Also note that the Paladin get a Flying mount at 13th level (A Bard could get it at 10th level, only 1 level after the Monk gets to... run up walls during their turn...).
PS: Depending on the DM the mounted character might also get to have their mounts attack as well.
Mounts indeed exist. Monks can also use mounts, so an Open Hand Monk of any race can do this as well. Mount dash for 120ft movement, Monk makes its attacks and BA attacks. With the Weapon Master feat they can use Topple targeting 2 different saves with 4 attacks.
On the next turn, they do it again.
And again.
And again.
And again.
That's 5 DP. After a short rest, or if they use Uncanny Metabolism, they can do it another 5 times.
The point here is that these other classes, with very specific setups, might get to do it once. The OHM gets to do this stuff multiple times every fight if it wants to. It becomes more effective at doing so as it gains later features and more DP. And it doesn't need to rely on a 3rd party creature like a mount or a non-standard racial feature. There's no extra setup. You choose the feature. You spend the DP. It activates. All you needed was a 4th level half-feat. Done.
So after some testing, gonna change the topple effect, too much hassle to keep track of, and watching dice fir new numbers with to little payoff. After one dungeon, I forgot it existed.
changing it to until the creature gets up, + Mod damage on crit.
push d4 and minimum push is fun, addle, I still don't have cause to use much with only two flurry attacks, but the one time used it to set up a save I was satisfied.
How about this for open hand.
LEVEL 3: OPEN HAND TECHNIQUE
Whenever you hit a creature with an attack granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can impose one of the following effects on that target:
Addle. The target can’t make Opportunity Attacks until the start of its next turn and must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or -1d4 from their next Str or Dex saving throw before the start of your next turn.
Push. The target is pushed 5ft from you and must succeed on a Strength saving throw, or you push it up to an additional 10 feet away from yourself.
Topple. The target’s speed is reduced by 10ft until the end of their next turn, and must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw, or it has the Prone condition.
Yes, I'm sure the Riding Horse's 10 AC and 13 HP will be very useful at level 5, just as I'm sure you can bring a horse with you into every single dungeon and encounter.
fairly similar, but scaled back slightly, I prefer mine, but these are acceptable. I think OH needs some damage somewhere though. Its not getting any sub damage boost until 17, which is super rare.
topple, I thought of the lesser movement, but not as a guaranteed effect. Works a bit better guaranteed, because prone, it would only reduce it by half as much, but with it proccing on hit, it can be useful when it doesnt land, and less useful when it does.
Strange that people think Find Steed is an awesome spell, and I see paladins using mounts in combat on the regular.
PS anywhere you can't take a mount, will be so cramped that you don't need a 100 ft move speed anyway.
I was just thinking. What if you get rid of push and topple and OHT allows you to use the Unarmed Strike Shove option without losing out on the damage. Then add a third unique option. Maybe a slow type effect (like the 1DD slow condition they had early on)
Edit: One thing I put in the survey was if OHT could be used on any unarmed attack and not just on FoB. I think I included monk weapons in that statement in one part. But not tying OHT to FoB would widen out what the Open Hand monk can do and when and not cost a DP if you use it outside of FoB.
I like it, personally I would change the effect for Addle in case the wisdom save fails, making it so that if it fails, the affected creature drops an object (or creature) that it is holding with its hands (or other extremities that can also grasp). Thus being able to release Weapons, arcane/Druilic focus, bag of components, A grappled creature, etc.
Flurry of Blows should possibly indicate that "Bonus Unarmed Strike" is part free DP, of that feature, so the open-handed monk could take minimal advantage of the level 3 subclass feature if he DON'T want to spend DP, or doesn't have it.
The new version of Find Steed has built-in scaling and passive healing; even the old version though is easily replaceable when lost by recasting. It can also understand you instead of needing Animal Handling checks. A fighter buying a riding horse in town has none of these advantages.
As for "anywhere you can't take a mount would be cramped anyway," that's just not true. For example, anywhere that is only accessible by ladder or rope would be unsuitable for a riding horse, regardless of how big the location is once you've traversed that entry point. A paladin could dismiss their steed and then resummon it on the other side, while a Fighter with a Riding Horse can't do that. Your comparison is specious.
I could accept this change:
Whenever you hit a creature with an attack granted by your Flurry of Blows or a Bonus Action Unarmed Strike, you can impose one of the following effects on that target:
Addle. The target can’t make Opportunity Attacks until the start of its next turn and must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or they drop one object/creature being held/grappled (you choose which when they fail the save).
Push. The target is pushed 5ft from you and must succeed on a Strength saving throw, or you push it up to an additional 10 feet away from yourself.
Topple. The target’s speed is reduced by 10ft until the end of their next turn, and must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw, or it has the Prone condition.
Maybe I should reword it so the saving throw effects only activate on spending DP for FoB, but you get the part without the saving throw on every bonus action unarmed attack. Then again maybe I’m overthinking and it’s fine to just work.
1- Silvery Barbs is a broken spell, and starting to set the standard for what's more broken only escalates the power curve to the point where soon you'll have superheroes in tier 1. Be cautious with this kind of logic.
2- Even worse, the effect is stronger than Silvery Barbs for the monk's purpose. Whether because Silvery consumes the reaction or because stunning is the strongest condition in the game, and -d4 is too potent for this purpose.
3- Lastly, this effect would still stack with Silvery Barbs, and bane from another player, and I don't need to continue to convey the level of brokenness this reaches.
1)I'm not sure at what point you read this, but I changed it to be a similar on hit effect to mind sliver. which is a -d4 to the next save. This is not a slippery slope, and its not even that powerful.
2) stun is far from the strongest condition in the game. You have paralyze, which is literally a 100% better version of stun. You have sleep, which lasts for a minute, sets up a guaranteed crit hit, you can literally end encounters with just sleep. You have suggest when can make npcs do things you wish them to do. You have dominate person where you literally control another npc.
-d4 to your next save is a non damage rider on a cantrip. That tells you exactly what its power budget is in the mind of the designers.(-2 damage per dice of firebolt) its not an unknown power it is literally between 5 and 20% better chance to land an effect auto used up, expended on failure. And since in my skill, its a save, its actually less likely to land than mind sliver. 65% to land the hit, then about 50% to proc the effect. 32.5% chance to land, and it might increase your stunning chance from 40% to 50%
3. mind sliver stacks with the same things and is a cantrip available to essentially every character(lvl 1 feat magic initiate) in the game. It has a higher rate of success.3 players using their various resources to effect one enemy is not OP, its normal gameplay.
And at this point I haven't just theory crafted this, i have playtested it. It Is not OP In any way, shape or form. It was almost never the best choice even with the buff. A grappler OH monk, (which is almost the only reason to play OH instead of using a feat or MC) Will spend the far majority of your FB attacks trying to get prone. Prone gives advantage to all melee users attacks, and disadvantage to attacks on the grappler. In general you can grapple up to 2 enemies.
In the occasions when you have already proned, or don't need to for whatever reason, the guaranteed +d4 and push was likely more useful. I uses this about three times from level 4-7. It was actually useful one of those 3 times. once they made the save, once its d4 had no effect, and once it mattered. Thats actually a higher rate of return than expected. As its 32% chance to land, with a 20% chance that it will change the result of a roll.
the true main benefit of the change in play, is it made you 'feel' like you could set up a combo, or do something useful. Like, I already have this guy proned, I don't want to move them, and maybe I can do something to set up something else that might matter, rather than having no particular synergies at all.
I'll also say after playtesting, I dropped the bonus to prone, not because it was OP, but because it was too rare for me to remember it, and I was basically attempting proning all the time already. Its a bit boring as is, and similar to topple, but, your gonna do it anyway, and the crits won't happen enough to make it memorable in TT.
actually go playtest -d4 next save before monster's next turn and tell me how often it actually made a difference in battle, and how often it wouldn't have been better to do something else.
Well, in 5e, I use my Open Hand with Fey Touched to have access to Bane and focus on those affected by the spell. That alone was already strong. If I manage to scale it with -1d4, I believe it will become even stronger.
Regarding stun being the strongest condition in the game, tell me how many magical items free you from the stun condition and how many monsters are immune to this condition. :)
I played an Open Hand monk for 3 years on a high-turnover server with access to items, so I could test some builds and the monk's scaling. While I appreciate the changes that are coming, your proposals significantly increase the power curve.
Getting a critical hit on a 10 is extremely powerful. You try to look at isolated probability numbers, but it's unlikely that a powerful/medium-difficulty creature would be hit by a 10. Besides increasing the hit range, you are also expanding the critical range. It's a very strong synergy and above-average with all attacking characters.
LOL, someone's been spending too much time theory crafting and not playing the game. Sleep will maybe end one medium encounter at level 1 if you roll well, by level 3 it will maybe drop one monster that has already be hit a few times, by level 5 it will do nothing ever, and Sleep only requires 1 enemy action to wake the sleeper back up (or less if the enemy uses damage to wake them up) which usually means on the next enemy turn in the initiative order the sleeper is back awake.
Paralysis requires a 5th level spellslot most of the time, monsters are 5x more likely to be immune to paralysis than to stunned (275 vs 58), and 9 have Freedom of Movement on their spell list allowing them to make themselves and their allies immune to paralysis. Plus Paralysis requires concentration so is easily broken by the enemies attacking the caster. It can also be Dispelled, Counterspelled, or cured by Lesser Restoration.
Domination is a Charm effect which means 430 monsters are flat out immune (8x more than stunned), while 41 have advantage against it, in addition to Dispel Magic, Counterspell, and breaking concentration, it can be cured by Greater Restoration, suppressed by Calm Emotions, or broken by the creature taking any damage. It also requires either a 5th or 8th level spellslot to pull off, which is an awful trade considering one slap can break it.
In contrast, there is Aura of Purity for Adv vs Stunned, or Power Word Heal to cure it. The only other way to break it is Mercy Monk's Hand of Healing.
I said sleep can end an encounter, not sleep always ends an encounter.
How effective sleep is depends on the tactics of how it is used. A monster waking another monster is STILL a monster wasting one of its turns. you have still gained the value of sleep. Whether a monster is even able to attempt to wake a creature is based on your tactics.
A monster waking another monster versus via damage is likely performing a critical hit on that monster and wasting damage them.
Also, there is sleep the spell and sleep the condition, There are multiple sources of sleep, just as there a multiple sources of stun.
the contention was that stun is the most powerful condition, the context being that being able to give a -2.5 to a stun is the most valuable condition you can place on a creature. Its objectively not the most powerful condition. That's not really debateable. Much of your points are talking about your perceived value of specific spells, or how to obtain them, rather than the effectiveness of the condition. You are debating the value proposition of stun for a monk versus other classes, that is a totally different discussion.
sleep; lasts the duration, or until the enemy takes damage, or someone gives up an action to wake them. guarantees critical to next hit. monk stun lasts until next turn. If I could choose between stun, or sleep on hit as a monk. I would choose sleep. This is not even a question to me which is a more valuable condition. Stun is useful, but at the end of the day, its advantage + enemy loses one turn. sleep is a better tactical tool.
paralysis is objectively stronger, thats not up for debate. 5th level is irrelevant to a discussion on the power of the condition. Its also not the lowest source if the condition.
how easy it is to break concentration is a tactical and build concern. essentially meaning, the odds can be zero, or the odds be greater.
monk stun lasts less than a single round, and only gives advantage .so the value of breaking it is not high. Once again, if I could choose between monk having paralyze on hit or stun on hit. No competition. I would give up stun in a heartbeat.
also, if you are going to evaluate condition power based on number of susceptible monsters, the proper metric would be amount immune/total number of monsters. not relative to each other. For example let's say one condition only has 2 enemies immune, and another has 30. you can say wow 15 times as many enemies are susceptible! however given a pool of 1600 monsters, they are both effective on 98%+ monsters, who cares.
the numbers I can find for official monsters had 93/799 for Para and 20/799 for stun, or you can say Para effective against 89% of enemies and stun effective against 97% of enemies.
considering that paralyze is almost literally twice as effective (guaranteed crits, + save to escape). I think 89% versus 97 is worth it, and I don't think and honest player would claim that it not a way more valuable condition.
You get apparently enjoy the idea of a powerful combo. The reality is you apparently chose a feat, which could have been +1AC/KIsave or +1AC/DMG/Accuracy. In onednd, charger, grappler, or weapon mastery, in exchange for being able to misty step once per day, and use bane once per day. I would certainly hope that its effectiveness was extremely high, and would not clash with mind sliver, seeing as how you paid a hefty price, for a very limited use.
but regardless, the fact remains, bane already stacks with mindsliver, and it apparently has not caused issues. Saying that its going to be OP because a monk is doing it instead of a sorcerer makes no logical sense.
Why are you talking about items that free you from the stun condition? what are the odds that monsters are carrying this items? If DMs are going around giving monsters anti condition items, they could as easily just add can't be stunned to their stat blocks. If you primarily are playing pvp, thats not what dnd 5e's design focus is, and you will have to homebrew and alter rules regardless.
If you are bringing up monster immunity, you'll have to outline your argument, the fact that more are immune alone doesn't really mean much. What the numbers? whats the totals? how common are these monsters who are immune? how often do they appear in modules. Then you at least have a starting point from which you might consider its power, versus the amount of creatures susceptible to it.
As far as increasing your accuracy by making 10 an auto crit, it is at absolute best case scenario, a 5% increase in accuracy. That is never an OP increase. but the reality is, accuracy is such that most of the time if you roll a 10, you were going to hit anyway.
at level 1. the monster needs 16 AC for this to even have a chance of mattering. at level 20 they need 23AC.(assuming no magical items)
The list of monsters in 5e with 23 AC is terrasque (on the list I was looking at 1/428)
the % of monsters you won't hit with a 10 varies as you level. but for your Proper CR, its basically gonna be between 4% and 9% in t1/ t2 and lower than 3% t3/T4
so gaining that much accuracy, against that number of opponents is anegiligable effect.
your statement on difficulty and AC is TOTALLY off base btw.
first off difficulty and AC are not highly correlated. High AC enemies, for their level are more about monster type than difficulty. Some monsters are difficult because they swarm, some are difficult because of resistances, some are deadly because of DPR, some special abilities.
High AC enemies are usually not going to have the highest damage or HP for their CR.
your previous experience is nice, but i don't think you have a valid mathematical, or actual play experience critique here. You haven't playtested it(these changes), and seen it it dominate or trivialize encounters, and you already admitted that the math shows its not a big deal.
your critiques are gut reactions, and a general feeling of dread.
but a character being able to have a 50% chance to make one monster 10% more susceptible to one save, automatically consumed success or fail, is not OP. It already exists, and most people who have the capability choose other options. Which is more common, fire bolt or mind sliver?
You're moving the goal posts so much here, that I don't know what you are arguing now. We are discussing whether giving Monk a debuff to saving throws is OP, thus the valid comparisons are Monk's Stunning Strike vs battlefield control spells. Not stunning strike vs so.e hypothetical ability that would be even more brokenly OP that what you presented here.
Firebolt is more popular than mind whip because Dead is the best condition in the game.
Gwar1, I think I understand why you're not seeing the issue with adding riders to Addle, but honestly getting through some of your posts to understand your main point is a little difficult. You're going off into some kind of tangent over the usefulness of the sleep condition, or maybe it was the sleep spell, or maybe it's both, followed by another for the paralyze condition which most characters including monks won't even have access to so its relative strength is moot... when at the end of the day the main point is that your proposal for Open Hand Technique is still too strong.
You're adding a rider on top of Addle. which is itself a rider. You might think a cantrip rider is reasonable because cantrips are resourceless, whereas Addle effectively costs a resource because it's part of FoB (say, 1/2 or 1/3 of a ki* point depending on how you count it) - but Addle has other things going for it that tip the power budget scales out of whack. There's no opportunity cost because it's part of the main thing OH monks will be doing every round anyway; the damage accompanying flurry already justified its cost even before Addle itself, never mind before whatever rider you're adding on top; unlike most cantrips, flurrying leaves your action free; and as if all that weren't enough, the OH monk can throw stunning fist on top if they have the ki to spare, for no cost other than another ki. So yes, even a cantrip rider is still too much rider.
*I know, it's discipline now, but ki is faster to type