So, this is only one way of many, And while i could imagine a very different open hand, that delves deeper into the concept of unarmed monk, i think this follows the general ideas and concepts they put forth, without being too crazy. New parts bold italic. This outlines my issues with open hand, and some ways to improve it.
Also some people said i should give suggestions rather than just point out the problems.
lvl 3: OPEN HAND TECHNIQUE
Whenever you hit a creature with an attack granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can impose one of the following effects on that target:
Addle. The target can’t make Opportunity Attacks until the start of its next turn. The target must succeed a wisdom saving throw, or have disadvantage on its next save-d4 to its next save
Push/RushYou can enter the creatures space, dealing 1d4 damage to that creature pushing it 5 feet in any direction. The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw, or you push it up to 10 additional feet away in any direction. (the creature can only take rush damage once per turn)
Topple. The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw, or it has the Prone condition. Until the start of its next turn, while prone, the creature is critically hit if attackers roll a 10 as well as 20. If a 10 isnt enought to hit, it hits anyway.
Why it needed to change. This is the main feature of OH, and it sets the gameplay loop for the sub class. It needs to feel unique, and useful in comparison to masteries, because it is more limited than masteries. it needs to create interesting moments in play as well. You dont want the subclass feeling like its not as useful as a 1 level martial dip, or taking a feat. I dont wan't to nerf other classes to protect OH identity, its not worth screwing every one else, so improve OH and make it more fun.
this makes addle a good set up skill for other skills, but with save requirement, and it gives opportunity disable. this is worth using now, and competes with other classes simply using push mastery to get away. similar to mind sliver in power/usecase. I had it last longer, but that might be considered too powerful. It makes sense, because you are braining them and making them less able to react, fits the theme. Teammates can also take advantage of this.
Push, becomes a Rush this gives a bare minium push of 5 feet with no save, less than the power of mastery push, but a chance for 15 feet. the damage and space entering is added because this subclass has no damage bump until level 17 which many will never reach, and its fun. its limited to once per turn, per monster, so it isnt that crazy. The step into space and push out gives the feel of knocking enemies around, and the ability to push in any direction makes it unique from other push effects. yes, you mostly could do that anyway by circling, but this saves you a bit of movment, and flavorwise feels more awesome to me. If it had to be nerfed, id drop the damage rider, although i think that makes it cool.
topple is already slightly better than mastery topple, but mastery topple works on every hit, including reactions, extra attacks, bonus attacks, haste attacks, and is therefore better. This barely matters, are 5% increase in chance to crit, but i think it will create fun moments, and make the effect slightly useful even if someone else proned the creature. If its too Op, i would limit it to the monk, if thats too far than until end of turn. I chose 10 for the crit, so that it doesnt clash with any other crit boosting effects, and because maybe on some monsters it will turn a miss into a hit. its also an easy number to remember.
LEVEL 6: WHOLENESS OF BODY
You gain the ability to heal yourself. As a Bonus Action, you can roll your Martial Arts die. You regain a number of Hit Points equal to the number rolled plus your Wisdom modifier (minimum of 1 Hit Point regained).
You also gain 1 DP in moments of calm, or 2 DP in moments of stress
stress could be; (in combat rated medium or higher difficulty, DM's discretion) or (2DP while in initiative) not sure which rule is better
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of
once), and you regain all expended uses when you finish a Long Rest.
Why it needed to change. Most people wouldnt use this in combat before, and as an out of combat heal, its lackluster. The old one had the advantage of being one huge heal for emergencies, which maybe was too rarely useful, but this one, its just a cheap potion, So yeah i might use it out of combat, but its not going to feel special or fun. Its adequate, but i am aiming for better than meh in sub class skill design.
This represents centering your mind and body to rejuvenate your resources
this makes it a real option in combat. giving up one BA attack/dash/disengage for 2 DP later. 1 is too small in combat, because you could just have attacked with that BA, or defended/ran. I nerfed it out of combat, because people probably feel 10 DP over the day is too powerful with no other cost. its still useful out of combat, because it isnt wasting a BA. Though i say at DM discretion, i basically mean, unless the fight is rated easy in encounter building terms, or the DM sees exploits. Most fights players should be getting 2DP
while Openhand doesnt have huge DP costs mid game, more DP would probably allow you to counter attack a bit more, or help with games that have less rests. late game, you can dump ki like water, so this might be helpful. perhaps it should upgrade to 2ki at all times late game..
The other two features can stay the same.
Nothing drastic, but makes it feel more tactical, and has some nice synergies. Thats my perspective, i'm going to test it out in some solo combat avernus simulations.
I agree Open Hand needs work and identity. I am concerned anything too different or complex will be less likely to make it to print. The developers have had 2 UAs to tinker with Open Hand, and have mostly focused on the level 6 and 11 features that needed the most work and level 17 Quivering Palm that needed rebalancing. But the level 3 ability was left more or less unchanged and is overshadowed by Weapon Masteries. The Open Hand Technique did get some ancillary improvements: (1) being able to FoB before Attack, and (2) Magic Items to improve Unarmed Strike accuracy (announced but unseen).
The UA8 Addle is fair, the UA8 Topple is better than Topple Mastery, and the UA8 Push is sad compared to the Push Mastery. The typical strategy is going to be Flurry of Blows Addle and Topple, then main Action attack. The Push is only going to be situationally used. Just to present a couple of more options (in addition for your own) for fixing:
Option 1: Make Open Hand Technique work "Whenever you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike..." instead of only on Flurry of Blows. A simple change that improves Open Hand and makes them more likely to not wield weapons.
Option 2: Remove the saving throw from the Push. This could be balanced by reducing the distance.
Option 3: Drop "Push" from Open Hand Technique. Use a different saving throw to cause a different effect. This is unlikely due to lack of development time.
For the Level 6 Wholeness of Body, I agree the UA8 version is clunky. I'm not sure about restoring Points, but I am curious how it works in your playtesting. I'm trying to think about how Wholeness of Body could be tied to Deflect Attack, but I'm not sure exactly how. Perhaps WIS mod extra uses of Deflect Attack that do not take a Reaction. But that does not fit the name.
UA8 addle isn’t good enough, mastery push is a free disengage already, it has some use cases, but it’s super niche, basically the monk might use it for himself because his push is poor, or they might make an enemy passable for other teammates, but the first case only exists because monk has a bad push, and the second is really rare, Addle only lasts till next turn for monster, so it’s just as effective push a monster off a player, even more effective in fact since the monster has to use movement, and the player might be able to get out of range completely.
topple is ok, but it doesn’t feel unique.
but yes, they could make it every attack, or give a small accuracy or dig boost, or both. However players seem like they are looking for mechanics, or play style things over numbers. Flex was unloved even though for 1handers, it was basically +1 damage per hit.
I wouldn’t say no to those solutions though, not sure if people would care about them though.
they could remove saving throw, lower it to 10 feet, but then it would be exactly like mastery, making people wonder, why not give them mastery with unarmed attacks? Which many people asked for or thought they would.
my assumption is they wanted mastery to be unique, and felt like it had to be on weapons. They could try
regardless to me, the level 3 needs to be defining, right now it feels like an inferior version of mastery, whereas before the open hand monk felt like the martial master of enemy mani-ulation and movement.
wholeness right now to me is a throwaway feature, I don’t hate it, but I also don’t care about it.
anyhow thanks for your feedback, hopefully they improve these even if they go in other directions
Your Addle and Topple are way too powerful, especially for level 3 features.
For Push, entering the enemy's space is unnecessary in 5e since you can move freely before and after attacks. Players who want to follow someone they're pushing can do so, and the players who don't want to have that option too.
I don't mine WoB restoring DP, but tying it to a meta concept like encounter difficulty is far too gamist, on top of potentially revealing information the DM might not want to.
Your Addle and Topple are way too powerful, especially for level 3 features.
For Push, entering the enemy's space is unnecessary in 5e since you can move freely before and after attacks. Players who want to follow someone they're pushing can do so, and the players who don't want to have that option too.
I don't mine WoB restoring DP, but tying it to a meta concept like encounter difficulty is far too gamist, on top of potentially revealing information the DM might not want to.
The proposed Addle is of about similar power (and less versatility) to the Silvery Barbs spell.
Even if that were true (it's not, because unlike SB, Addle can be used on multiple enemies in one flurry), that's not a point in its favor. Silvery Barbs is not uncontroversial in its own right.
Your Addle and Topple are way too powerful, especially for level 3 features.
For Push, entering the enemy's space is unnecessary in 5e since you can move freely before and after attacks. Players who want to follow someone they're pushing can do so, and the players who don't want to have that option too.
I don't mine WoB restoring DP, but tying it to a meta concept like encounter difficulty is far too gamist, on top of potentially revealing information the DM might not want to.
cantrips are the model for masteries, and on hit effects, mind sliver does the same effect and targets a weaker save. they can limit it to the end of monks turn if they have to, but I don't think its necessary. no opportunity attacks is a very weak effect, and would rarely be better than a push or a topple. On its own, its not good enough, people say the same thing about the new shocking grasp. I know they want to use more monster reactions, but op attack removal isnt a good enough on hit effect.
topple effect is a 5% increase in chance for extra dice damage, thats a really tiny increase in DPS. like 2% increase or .2 damage per hit. Its more about uniqueness or creating a rare awesome moment than power. I needed to add some uniqueness, without actually making it a lot stronger since it already targets a weaker save. It also makes it useful even if other members have toppled, even though its a slight use case. You get three attacks, you only get the benefit from push once per enemy, addle only has one use case, so with three attacks on one enemy, you can get some use out of each option, even if its small.
entering the enemies space is flavor, the idea is you are knocking them out of the space while doing damage, but also it allows the any direction push to make more sense. Its not hyper necessary, but it feels more fun in my tests, and may have niche use cases, like getting past chokes. Entering space was always a 'can' option, not a you must thing.
Its not really more gamist to have concept of medium encounters, its in the encounter building guide, DMs are supposed to know it, the guidance is for dms, not really players, they should basically always allow it, unless its obvious manipulation. a medium encounter is actually, in game play, low difficulty, it means the encounter might use some resources. Easy encounters don't use resources, by the encounter guidance. The dm doesnt have to give anything away, if its important that the risk is unknown, let them get full benefit. Its anti exploitation clause. But specific so the dm isnt just guessing, because some DMs, without guidance just over use the Dm approval clauses in other rules/features.
Regardless, if I had to get rid of that, id just keep it at 2ki, the 1ki out of combat was just a slight nod to people who don't like rat exploits, and an in combat use incentive.
Even if that were true (it's not, because unlike SB, Addle can be used on multiple enemies in one flurry), that's not a point in its favor. Silvery Barbs is not uncontroversial in its own right.
its not like silvery barbs because it has to be used ahead of time, and it has a save. Its closer to a mind sliver effect, which is a cantrip. It should compete in use with topple, or push. Its fine to make it -d4 like mind sliver, I was mostly trying to speed it up in play. -2 would be fine as well, but I don't see them do direct minuses often
topple gives advantage to physical attacks, and disadvantage to attacks against you, and wastes half movement.
push allows control of the battle field, and (even in 5e) extra opportunities for damage(fall dmg/aoe), it also effectively removes opportunity attacks until the enemies turn.
so a debuff on saves seems like something people might actually use.
Addle as is, is only useful because OH push is weak. A character who takes tavern brawler (5ft push guaranteed 1/round) has almost no use case. with my push, which is at least 5, they will also have no usecase.
it needs something, preferably something with the flavor of mini stun/lowering ability to react, I think this fits.
I needed to add some uniqueness, without actually making it a lot stronger since it already targets a weaker save.
Not only have you roughly doubled the crit range on a class that can easily get 5-7 attacks per round, you've done so in an unintuitive way (critting on a 10 instead of a 19... why?) I think that in your pursuit of novelty you're abandoning any semblance of consistent or coherent design. Same with the entering space thing - no other push in the game works like that. Again, aside from wacky novelty, why?
Its not really more gamist to have concept of medium encounters, its in the encounter building guide, DMs are supposed to know it, the guidance is for dms, not really players, they should basically always allow it, unless its obvious manipulation.
But by tying how much DP the player gets back to that variable, you're making it nakedly visible to the player. Or are you somehow hiding from them how many points they regain from their feature?
And no, not all encounter difficulties are known. Random encounter tables don't list CR/EL, and plenty of DMs use them. Even the Xanathar's tables cover level ranges that span an entire tier.
I needed to add some uniqueness, without actually making it a lot stronger since it already targets a weaker save.
Not only have you roughly doubled the crit range on a class that can easily get 5-7 attacks per round, you've done so in an unintuitive way (critting on a 10 instead of a 19... why?) I think that in your pursuit of novelty you're abandoning any semblance of consistent or coherent design. Same with the entering space thing - no other push in the game works like that. Again, aside from wacky novelty, why?
Its not really more gamist to have concept of medium encounters, its in the encounter building guide, DMs are supposed to know it, the guidance is for dms, not really players, they should basically always allow it, unless its obvious manipulation.
But by tying how much DP the player gets back to that variable, you're making it nakedly visible to the player. Or are you somehow hiding from them how many points they regain from their feature?
And no, not all encounter difficulties are known. Random encounter tables don't list CR/EL, and plenty of DMs use them. Even the Xanathar's tables cover level ranges that span an entire tier.
its not like silvery barbs because it has to be used ahead of time, and it has a save. Its closer to a mind sliver effect, which is a cantrip.
No. Mind Sliver can't debuff three enemies as a bonus action while still doing greataxe damage even if they save either.
its not a free disengage, every OH technique requires that you expended Ki. For OH its on a per turn basis, not every 10 minutes or something.you probably think of this like its an all the time thing, but its not. Monk at level 3 has 3 things it can do. thats 3 rounds tops. Ki is not infinite.
And its also in competition with push or topple. it has a resource cost, and an opportunity cost, and it isnt worth either cost. People rarely used the previous version, and it was a better skill.
the reason it uses 10, isnt just to be novel, its so that it doesnt conflict with other, or future skills that allow crits on 19. The feature in its base isnt just for monk, its for teamates as well, if your team mate is a champ who goes before the enemy gets its turn they get a benefit. And no, i dont think synergy is bad. And no, while you think crit is insanely powerful its not. Its literally a 5% increased chance to do double dice. 5% is one out of 20 attacks. and the increase in damage is less than 50% its mathematically a tiny boost, that requires you to land a hit.
Cantrips are designed to be weaker than basic attacks, and the masteries, and on hit effects of martials allow the cantrip effect across multiple attacks. This is already the design of martial "cantrips"
slow = cold snap
vex= old true strike
graze= damage on succesful save
push= infestation
pull= thorn wip.
elemental monk at level 3 gets push, or pull on every unarmed attack (not just flurry) for 10 minutes.
getting to mind sliver 3 different enemies, (and its only 2 until level 10) potentially, is totally in fitting with the design, though you would have to hit them, and then have them pass a save 65%hit chance and 50% chance to proc effect= 32% chance (mind sliver only needs a save, not a save AND a hit) and it targets a weaker save(int).
and actually mind sliver at 17 is 4d6, which is approximatelty=14 monks level 17 d12+mod is=11.5. So yes, mind sliver is doing more than d12 damage at high levels.
Even if you dont think addle needs this effect, you should expect it to have a similar effect to other cantrips on a per hit basis and compete with push and topple in usefulness.
For the DP, the DM decides, so the DM can just give them 2 ki, if they dont want the player to know its an easy fight, which is rare. (that a player wouldnt know its an easy fight) To be clear, this is essentially just DM being able to block the bag of rats issue. it could have easily been like skills that use initiative as a prerequisite. As i said, its not that important. im fine with 2ki at all times or require intiative for the effect.
It is free, because it's packaged with the thing you'd be doing with that DP anyway (flurry.)
And no, triple Heighten Spell does not fit in with any kind of design.
free means without cost, it has a cost. 'Distort Value' is free, because you should be using a spell slot anyway by your definition. Free disengage per hit looks like: your unarmed attacks make opponents unable to perform opportunity attacks until the start of next turn. That is not addle.
I'm playtesting OH monk with ele monk and mercy monk, In Descent into Avernus (currently lvl 3)And he can't flurry every turn, You have to decide on each turn if its time to pay the cost. And then you decide if you will use that limited resource on addle, it so far never been a good choice, never worth the cost. Its usecase is hyper rare.
And, you appear to just want addle to be a trash feature, because you think the power of a cantrip effect is too great on multi hits, (nvm that push/topple are cantrip effect level or higher) with lower accuracy. I already conceded to making it a -d4 like sliver. We'll just have to disagree
So, this is only one way of many, And while i could imagine a very different open hand, that delves deeper into the concept of unarmed monk, i think this follows the general ideas and concepts they put forth, without being too crazy. New parts bold italic. This outlines my issues with open hand, and some ways to improve it.
Also some people said i should give suggestions rather than just point out the problems.
lvl 3: OPEN HAND TECHNIQUE
Whenever you hit a creature with an attack granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can impose one of the following effects on that target:
Addle. The target can’t make Opportunity Attacks until the start of its next turn. The target must succeed a wisdom saving throw, or have disadvantage on its next save-d4 to its next save
Push/RushYou can enter the creatures space, dealing 1d4 damage to that creature pushing it 5 feet in any direction. The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw, or you push it up to 10 additional feet away in any direction. (the creature can only take rush damage once per turn)
Topple. The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw, or it has the Prone condition. Until the start of its next turn, while prone, the creature is critically hit if attackers roll a 10 as well as 20. If a 10 isnt enought to hit, it hits anyway.
Why it needed to change. This is the main feature of OH, and it sets the gameplay loop for the sub class. It needs to feel unique, and useful in comparison to masteries, because it is more limited than masteries. it needs to create interesting moments in play as well. You dont want the subclass feeling like its not as useful as a 1 level martial dip, or taking a feat. I dont wan't to nerf other classes to protect OH identity, its not worth screwing every one else, so improve OH and make it more fun.
this makes addle a good set up skill for other skills, but with save requirement, and it gives opportunity disable. this is worth using now, and competes with other classes simply using push mastery to get away. similar to mind sliver in power/usecase. I had it last longer, but that might be considered too powerful. It makes sense, because you are braining them and making them less able to react, fits the theme. Teammates can also take advantage of this.
Push, becomes a Rush this gives a bare minium push of 5 feet with no save, less than the power of mastery push, but a chance for 15 feet. the damage and space entering is added because this subclass has no damage bump until level 17 which many will never reach, and its fun. its limited to once per turn, per monster, so it isnt that crazy. The step into space and push out gives the feel of knocking enemies around, and the ability to push in any direction makes it unique from other push effects. yes, you mostly could do that anyway by circling, but this saves you a bit of movment, and flavorwise feels more awesome to me. If it had to be nerfed, id drop the damage rider, although i think that makes it cool.
topple is already slightly better than mastery topple, but mastery topple works on every hit, including reactions, extra attacks, bonus attacks, haste attacks, and is therefore better. This barely matters, are 5% increase in chance to crit, but i think it will create fun moments, and make the effect slightly useful even if someone else proned the creature. If its too Op, i would limit it to the monk, if thats too far than until end of turn. I chose 10 for the crit, so that it doesnt clash with any other crit boosting effects, and because maybe on some monsters it will turn a miss into a hit. its also an easy number to remember.
LEVEL 6: WHOLENESS OF BODY
You gain the ability to heal yourself. As a Bonus Action, you can roll your Martial Arts die. You regain a number of Hit Points equal to the number rolled plus your Wisdom modifier (minimum of 1 Hit Point regained).
You also gain 1 DP in moments of calm, or 2 DP in moments of stress
stress could be; (in combat rated medium or higher difficulty, DM's discretion) or (2DP while in initiative) not sure which rule is better
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of
once), and you regain all expended uses when you finish a Long Rest.
Why it needed to change. Most people wouldnt use this in combat before, and as an out of combat heal, its lackluster. The old one had the advantage of being one huge heal for emergencies, which maybe was too rarely useful, but this one, its just a cheap potion, So yeah i might use it out of combat, but its not going to feel special or fun. Its adequate, but i am aiming for better than meh in sub class skill design.
This represents centering your mind and body to rejuvenate your resources
this makes it a real option in combat. giving up one BA attack/dash/disengage for 2 DP later. 1 is too small in combat, because you could just have attacked with that BA, or defended/ran. I nerfed it out of combat, because people probably feel 10 DP over the day is too powerful with no other cost. its still useful out of combat, because it isnt wasting a BA. Though i say at DM discretion, i basically mean, unless the fight is rated easy in encounter building terms, or the DM sees exploits. Most fights players should be getting 2DP
while Openhand doesnt have huge DP costs mid game, more DP would probably allow you to counter attack a bit more, or help with games that have less rests. late game, you can dump ki like water, so this might be helpful. perhaps it should upgrade to 2ki at all times late game..
The other two features can stay the same.
Nothing drastic, but makes it feel more tactical, and has some nice synergies. Thats my perspective, i'm going to test it out in some solo combat avernus simulations.
This is really unnecessary.
UA8 OHM is consistently doing more average damage than traditional baseline between 6-11 and is now better than many older Martial classes above 11th level for DPR. Politely, I think you are making a mistake and focusing far too closely on the OHM subclass features individually and not considering how they interact with the UA8 Monk core class changes. The disjointed Bonus Action Unarmed Strikes and the changes to Dextrous Attacks and Stunning Strike by themselves drastically improve the utility and DPR before adding the OHM 3rd level features on top of them.
Addle as written is not a trash feature. In fact, Addle shutting off reactions would be an extraordinarily overpowered feature based on what's been discussed about future monster designs. It is also usable by the OHM to turn off Opportunity Attacks for multiple creatures, not only towards the OHM but towards other players and allied NPCs. This is exactly the sort of battlefield control skill that players have been saying the Monk should excel at.
Push: You just reduced the push distance of this feature by 5 feet in exchange for an unmodified d4 damage. Also, you seem to be unaware that the Crusher feat exists, or that Elements Monk also has movement+damage+control features. This isn't just stepping on the power fantasy of other classes, this is also stepping on the power fantasy of other Monk subclasses at an earlier class level. Also, you haven't considered that the feature doesn't put a size restriction on the target - so your ability allows a Monk to just hip-check a Terrasque 5 feet out of the way by walking up to it and spending a DP.
I am assuming that the expanded crit range of Open hand: Topple was a typo on your number keys and is supposed to be 19 or 20. Even so, expanded crit range is half the 3rd level feature list of the Champion Fighter. Combine this with the Advantage obtained against Prone enemies and you have a 1 in 5 chance to get a Critical Hit with every attack and depending on party composition and buffs provided you may have up to 10 attacks before the target gets their turn. Multiclassing with this feature to get something like Action Surge and then a party member giving Haste would be a brutal 1-2 combo that would end all but the very toughest fights with this setup.
The Wholeness of Body change is unnecessary and thematically inappropriate. There is a subclass already devoted to physical and spiritual recovery, the Mercy Monk. Better to put this effect there as a unique update to a class that will want to frequently use its Discipline Points to heal and fortify itself and others.
Right now, UA8 Monk is in a great place and UA8 Open Hand really maximizes the opportunities to take advantage of that change, including early campaign versatility, mid campaign survivability, a late campaign boost to subclass capabilities across the board, and a massive endgame DPR spike.
Monks have needed a lot of help since 2014. Protecting the huge power spikes they've received here is a perfect place to keep them going foward. Even highly regarded D&D optimizer community members have been noting just how potent the UA8 Open Hand Monk is without further changes. I don't think there's much to argue for in terms of necessary buffs to any of these features - they don't all need to be 10/10 on the power curve especially when some other subclasses could maybe use some of that additional DPR and versatility.
Monks have needed a lot of help since 2014. Protecting the huge power spikes they've received here is a perfect place to keep them going foward. Even highly regarded D&D optimizer community members have been noting just how potent the UA8 Open Hand Monk is without further changes. I don't think there's much to argue for in terms of necessary buffs to any of these features - they don't all need to be 10/10 on the power curve especially when some other subclasses could maybe use some of that additional DPR and versatility.
I agree power-wise UA8 monk is fine now thanks to the revision of Stunning Strike, and the extra FoB at 11th level. The problem is that Open Hand monk isn't really giving you anything extra - If you play a monk with no subclass and take the Weapon Mastery feat at 4th level (or a 1 level dip into Fighter), then you'd be functionally indistinguishable from the Open Hand monk 90% of the time (until Quivering Palm that is). It reminds me so much of 2014 Land Druid - it just doesn't really add anything above the base class.
I am evaluating the subclass with its new context, but ultimately it is a subclass, and the question is what it adds to the base class, and how it compares with other subclasses. These features aren't doing enough.
To be clear, base monk is fine. OH monk is not.
Yes, BA decoupling is nice, but no it doesnt really make the level 3 feature good enough, primarily because all classes can now push/topple at the beginning of their turns, WITHOUT using a resource. If monk couldn't do so, it would be clearly inferior. They would either have to decouple, or make it work on all UA in order for it to be as useful as mastery, they chose the first, thats fine, but its not a great boon to the class,
I understand they have new plans for reactions, so addle needed to be changed, thats why I'm proposing a different added functionality, in line with the flavor and use cases of monk.
compare addle to mastery push. AoO are basically attacks when you leave melee range of an enemy, so if you push an enemy 5 to 10 feet away, any enemies whose square they threatened, will no longer be threatened. Both of these will only work until the monsters next turn. So push does what addle does + it has more usecases and control. The only usecase for addle is an unpushable monster, which is too niche.
also, you seem to have misread my push, it has guaranteed 5ft push, d4 on successful hit with 10 feet more on save. Elements does not own pushing, this isn't toe stepping, OH monk is the OG pushing concept. Elements monk didnt even necesarilly get push ever. if toes has been stepped, mastery and other have stepped on OH monk toes. Yes, they can hip check a tarrasque IF they land a hit, AND use Ki, AND choose push out of 3 options. these are on hit effects, you don't do them without making a roll. Not to mention, eldritch blast already can push 10 feet, no check, from a range, no resource, no subclass. All undoing here is a minimum distance push, with a damage rider, once per turn. This is far from OP or crazy.
elements can push, or pull from 15 feet away, while flying, and various elemental damage. Element's toes is AOE/aoe setup and movement, it can't own pushing.
my expanded crit range is intentionally 10 so it doesnt clash with other characters (champ, warlocks) sources of crit. its 1/20 chance of showing up, and a less than 1/10 chance with advantage. You are adding the normal chance, but that has nothing to do with the monk's power. that was always a possibility. the monk is increasing damage by .1*average dice value. per hit. this is .35 damage per hit for d6 and .65 damage per hit for d12. this is substantially less than flex, which people said was weak. And, you need to land a hit, and then land a topple+use a topple attack before you can put the debuff on a creature. And it only lasts until start of its next turn. This is a really tame boost To dps. Keep in mind OH monk in u8 has no DPS increase until 17. Meanwhile, mercy has harm, elements has fall damage, Astral gets an MA die, Ascendant has aoe breath, and others, kensei gets +1-3 per hit and AC, Shadow gets advantage/disadvantage without a save, or having to land a hit.
but OK, some fear the low power and unpredictability of the critical. Regardless OH monk isnt boosting the group dps much with no native dps, and advantage having way more sources now.
Heres the thing, people are hyped on main class monk, and not realizing OH monk is bringing very little to the table. take one lvl of fighter on any monk, you are better than OH monk until 11, or 17. And your 11 just gives more mobility, which is nice, but rarely going to be useful. fighting style+3masteries+secondwind. 3 masteries = better than OH technique. No other subclass monk, can you get a better version of the same functionality with a one level dip. except drunken master, that sub is just really bad.
don't have to like my changes, but the level 3 needs to at least be as good as 3 masteries. IMO it should be better since this costs Ki, is limited to flurry attacks, and this was originally OH monk's unique thing, but it needs to be at the very least as good. right now, topple is a better save, push is less useful 90% of the time, an addle is worse than mastery push 85% of the time. thats at best 2/3 fail.
wholeness is meh feature, and mercy monk doesnt have the space of returning ki.
people saying open hand is good early on..., it just isnt. A 1lvl dip shouldn't defeat a subclass. that just means, hit lv, 5 with a different sub, and take a dip.
shadow monk5/1fighter versus openhand6 whats the benefit? 10% more topple and 9more hp per day?
in exchange for a fighting style(AC or maneuver or damage) and 3rd mastery better than addle. and a movable darkness shadow with darkvision Come on
free means without cost, it has a cost. 'Distort Value' is free, because you should be using a spell slot anyway by your definition. Free disengage per hit looks like: your unarmed attacks make opponents unable to perform opportunity attacks until the start of next turn. That is not addle.
The cost that actually matters here is the opportunity cost, which Addle doesn't have. Without grasping that concept, any redesigns you pitch will be ineffective.
I agree power-wise UA8 monk is fine now thanks to the revision of Stunning Strike, and the extra FoB at 11th level. The problem is that Open Hand monk isn't really giving you anything extra - If you play a monk with no subclass and take the Weapon Mastery feat at 4th level (or a 1 level dip into Fighter), then you'd be functionally indistinguishable from the Open Hand monk 90% of the time (until Quivering Palm that is). It reminds me so much of 2014 Land Druid - it just doesn't really add anything above the base class.
Reminder yet again that Open Hand is almost certainly going to be the Basic Monk in 2024 just like it is now. Not deviating too far from the base class' fundamentals is therefore its job. The Land Druid comparison is apt.
But there are depths here for those who know how to optimize them. Being able to Step of the Wind and Flurry simultaneously makes OH the most effective skirmisher in core, and possibly the entire game second only to Echo Knight. Being able to take allies with you on top of that unlocks strategies no other class let alone monk subclass can replicate. The belief that a subclassless monk is indistinguishable from an OHM before Quivering Palm is just false.
free means without cost, it has a cost. 'Distort Value' is free, because you should be using a spell slot anyway by your definition. Free disengage per hit looks like: your unarmed attacks make opponents unable to perform opportunity attacks until the start of next turn. That is not addle.
The cost that actually matters here is the opportunity cost, which Addle doesn't have. Without grasping that concept, any redesigns you pitch will be ineffective.
I agree power-wise UA8 monk is fine now thanks to the revision of Stunning Strike, and the extra FoB at 11th level. The problem is that Open Hand monk isn't really giving you anything extra - If you play a monk with no subclass and take the Weapon Mastery feat at 4th level (or a 1 level dip into Fighter), then you'd be functionally indistinguishable from the Open Hand monk 90% of the time (until Quivering Palm that is). It reminds me so much of 2014 Land Druid - it just doesn't really add anything above the base class.
Reminder yet again that Open Hand is almost certainly going to be the Basic Monk in 2024 just like it is now. Not deviating too far from the base class' fundamentals is therefore its job. The Land Druid comparison is apt.
But there are depths here for those who know how to optimize them. Being able to Step of the Wind and Flurry simultaneously makes OH the most effective skirmisher in core, and possibly the entire game second only to Echo Knight. Being able to take allies with you on top of that unlocks strategies no other class let alone monk subclass can replicate. The belief that a subclassless monk is indistinguishable from an OHM before Quivering Palm is just false.
I don't think you understand opportunity cost.
"Opportunity cost is the potential forgone profit from a missed opportunity—the result of choosing one alternative over another."
1) every Ki spent, is a trading an opportunity cost of anything else you can do with ki. You could stunning strike with ki, you could reaction damage with ki, or you can save it and topple/push later
2) every time you use addle, you are not using topple, you are not using push. is one addle worth a topple or a push
addle is inferior push mastery, with highly niche use case.
I meant the opportunity cost relative to DP expenditure. Addle doesn't cost you any extra DP or damage, because it's baked into the flurry itself. You're not choosing between flurry damage or addle, you get both.
But there are depths here for those who know how to optimize them. Being able to Step of the Wind and Flurry simultaneously makes OH the most effective skirmisher in core, and possibly the entire game second only to Echo Knight. Being able to take allies with you on top of that unlocks strategies no other class let alone monk subclass can replicate. The belief that a subclassless monk is indistinguishable from an OHM before Quivering Palm is just false.
Literally every character can take a willing ally with them without that ally taking AoO when they move from 1st level by first spending 1 attack to grapple that ally before moving. Sure the OH monk can move the most-est while doing so but it really is not any kind of novel tactical option. Plus by the time you get it, the Barbarian has extra movement & extra movement when they rage, the Paladin has a flying mount to carry them into combat, the Bards have flying mounts too from Magical Secrets, Rangers have Zephyr Strike, Rogues have Cunning Action, the Blade-lock has Thunderstep, the Bladesinger has Haste, so you're getting to play bus driver for... the Moondruid and the Fighter?
If you compare OH to the other "generic" subclasses: OH gets Weapon Mastery for unarmed strikes that you'll stop using once you get Stunning Strike, a feature that is just a worse version of Second Wind, an more convenient Cunning action, and a cool unique capstone. Hunter gets bonus offensive options (most of which are unique) they're using hopefully every turn, a unique monster-lore feature, defensive features they'll be using fairly regularly. Thief get the unique ability to use magic items as a BA, a generic movement bonus, the unique ability to stay hidden for an entire combat, be the best at using magic items of any character in the game. Beserker gets a unique damage feature giving them the highest DPR in the game, a great defensive feature, a damage boost they'll be using hopefully every turn, a generic fear ability Champion gets a unique crit-fishing bonus, a generic martial feature, a unique combat bonus, improvement to a unqiue feature, a unique healing feature.
Great, so every other martial can sacrifice half their DPR to do it, or more even since only the monk is likely to have a free hand in melee while still having full damage, and they move much slower so neither of you are able to actually get away from most monsters, and they don't have addle so you're eating an OA trying to do this. Boy, you sure showed me.
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So, this is only one way of many, And while i could imagine a very different open hand, that delves deeper into the concept of unarmed monk, i think this follows the general ideas and concepts they put forth, without being too crazy. New parts bold italic. This outlines my issues with open hand, and some ways to improve it.
Also some people said i should give suggestions rather than just point out the problems.
Why it needed to change. This is the main feature of OH, and it sets the gameplay loop for the sub class. It needs to feel unique, and useful in comparison to masteries, because it is more limited than masteries. it needs to create interesting moments in play as well. You dont want the subclass feeling like its not as useful as a 1 level martial dip, or taking a feat. I dont wan't to nerf other classes to protect OH identity, its not worth screwing every one else, so improve OH and make it more fun.
this makes addle a good set up skill for other skills, but with save requirement, and it gives opportunity disable. this is worth using now, and competes with other classes simply using push mastery to get away. similar to mind sliver in power/usecase. I had it last longer, but that might be considered too powerful. It makes sense, because you are braining them and making them less able to react, fits the theme. Teammates can also take advantage of this.
Push, becomes a Rush this gives a bare minium push of 5 feet with no save, less than the power of mastery push, but a chance for 15 feet. the damage and space entering is added because this subclass has no damage bump until level 17 which many will never reach, and its fun. its limited to once per turn, per monster, so it isnt that crazy. The step into space and push out gives the feel of knocking enemies around, and the ability to push in any direction makes it unique from other push effects. yes, you mostly could do that anyway by circling, but this saves you a bit of movment, and flavorwise feels more awesome to me. If it had to be nerfed, id drop the damage rider, although i think that makes it cool.
topple is already slightly better than mastery topple, but mastery topple works on every hit, including reactions, extra attacks, bonus attacks, haste attacks, and is therefore better. This barely matters, are 5% increase in chance to crit, but i think it will create fun moments, and make the effect slightly useful even if someone else proned the creature. If its too Op, i would limit it to the monk, if thats too far than until end of turn. I chose 10 for the crit, so that it doesnt clash with any other crit boosting effects, and because maybe on some monsters it will turn a miss into a hit. its also an easy number to remember.
Why it needed to change. Most people wouldnt use this in combat before, and as an out of combat heal, its lackluster. The old one had the advantage of being one huge heal for emergencies, which maybe was too rarely useful, but this one, its just a cheap potion, So yeah i might use it out of combat, but its not going to feel special or fun. Its adequate, but i am aiming for better than meh in sub class skill design.
This represents centering your mind and body to rejuvenate your resources
this makes it a real option in combat. giving up one BA attack/dash/disengage for 2 DP later. 1 is too small in combat, because you could just have attacked with that BA, or defended/ran. I nerfed it out of combat, because people probably feel 10 DP over the day is too powerful with no other cost. its still useful out of combat, because it isnt wasting a BA. Though i say at DM discretion, i basically mean, unless the fight is rated easy in encounter building terms, or the DM sees exploits. Most fights players should be getting 2DP
while Openhand doesnt have huge DP costs mid game, more DP would probably allow you to counter attack a bit more, or help with games that have less rests. late game, you can dump ki like water, so this might be helpful. perhaps it should upgrade to 2ki at all times late game..
The other two features can stay the same.
Nothing drastic, but makes it feel more tactical, and has some nice synergies. Thats my perspective, i'm going to test it out in some solo combat avernus simulations.
I agree Open Hand needs work and identity. I am concerned anything too different or complex will be less likely to make it to print. The developers have had 2 UAs to tinker with Open Hand, and have mostly focused on the level 6 and 11 features that needed the most work and level 17 Quivering Palm that needed rebalancing. But the level 3 ability was left more or less unchanged and is overshadowed by Weapon Masteries. The Open Hand Technique did get some ancillary improvements: (1) being able to FoB before Attack, and (2) Magic Items to improve Unarmed Strike accuracy (announced but unseen).
The UA8 Addle is fair, the UA8 Topple is better than Topple Mastery, and the UA8 Push is sad compared to the Push Mastery. The typical strategy is going to be Flurry of Blows Addle and Topple, then main Action attack. The Push is only going to be situationally used. Just to present a couple of more options (in addition for your own) for fixing:
Option 1: Make Open Hand Technique work "Whenever you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike..." instead of only on Flurry of Blows. A simple change that improves Open Hand and makes them more likely to not wield weapons.
Option 2: Remove the saving throw from the Push. This could be balanced by reducing the distance.
Option 3: Drop "Push" from Open Hand Technique. Use a different saving throw to cause a different effect. This is unlikely due to lack of development time.
For the Level 6 Wholeness of Body, I agree the UA8 version is clunky. I'm not sure about restoring Points, but I am curious how it works in your playtesting. I'm trying to think about how Wholeness of Body could be tied to Deflect Attack, but I'm not sure exactly how. Perhaps WIS mod extra uses of Deflect Attack that do not take a Reaction. But that does not fit the name.
UA8 addle isn’t good enough, mastery push is a free disengage already, it has some use cases, but it’s super niche, basically the monk might use it for himself because his push is poor, or they might make an enemy passable for other teammates, but the first case only exists because monk has a bad push, and the second is really rare, Addle only lasts till next turn for monster, so it’s just as effective push a monster off a player, even more effective in fact since the monster has to use movement, and the player might be able to get out of range completely.
topple is ok, but it doesn’t feel unique.
but yes, they could make it every attack, or give a small accuracy or dig boost, or both. However players seem like they are looking for mechanics, or play style things over numbers. Flex was unloved even though for 1handers, it was basically +1 damage per hit.
I wouldn’t say no to those solutions though, not sure if people would care about them though.
they could remove saving throw, lower it to 10 feet, but then it would be exactly like mastery, making people wonder, why not give them mastery with unarmed attacks? Which many people asked for or thought they would.
my assumption is they wanted mastery to be unique, and felt like it had to be on weapons. They could try
regardless to me, the level 3 needs to be defining, right now it feels like an inferior version of mastery, whereas before the open hand monk felt like the martial master of enemy mani-ulation and movement.
wholeness right now to me is a throwaway feature, I don’t hate it, but I also don’t care about it.
anyhow thanks for your feedback, hopefully they improve these even if they go in other directions
Your Addle and Topple are way too powerful, especially for level 3 features.
For Push, entering the enemy's space is unnecessary in 5e since you can move freely before and after attacks. Players who want to follow someone they're pushing can do so, and the players who don't want to have that option too.
I don't mine WoB restoring DP, but tying it to a meta concept like encounter difficulty is far too gamist, on top of potentially revealing information the DM might not want to.
The proposed Addle is of about similar power (and less versatility) to the Silvery Barbs spell.
Even if that were true (it's not, because unlike SB, Addle can be used on multiple enemies in one flurry), that's not a point in its favor. Silvery Barbs is not uncontroversial in its own right.
cantrips are the model for masteries, and on hit effects, mind sliver does the same effect and targets a weaker save. they can limit it to the end of monks turn if they have to, but I don't think its necessary. no opportunity attacks is a very weak effect, and would rarely be better than a push or a topple. On its own, its not good enough, people say the same thing about the new shocking grasp. I know they want to use more monster reactions, but op attack removal isnt a good enough on hit effect.
topple effect is a 5% increase in chance for extra dice damage, thats a really tiny increase in DPS. like 2% increase or .2 damage per hit. Its more about uniqueness or creating a rare awesome moment than power. I needed to add some uniqueness, without actually making it a lot stronger since it already targets a weaker save. It also makes it useful even if other members have toppled, even though its a slight use case. You get three attacks, you only get the benefit from push once per enemy, addle only has one use case, so with three attacks on one enemy, you can get some use out of each option, even if its small.
entering the enemies space is flavor, the idea is you are knocking them out of the space while doing damage, but also it allows the any direction push to make more sense. Its not hyper necessary, but it feels more fun in my tests, and may have niche use cases, like getting past chokes. Entering space was always a 'can' option, not a you must thing.
Its not really more gamist to have concept of medium encounters, its in the encounter building guide, DMs are supposed to know it, the guidance is for dms, not really players, they should basically always allow it, unless its obvious manipulation. a medium encounter is actually, in game play, low difficulty, it means the encounter might use some resources. Easy encounters don't use resources, by the encounter guidance. The dm doesnt have to give anything away, if its important that the risk is unknown, let them get full benefit. Its anti exploitation clause. But specific so the dm isnt just guessing, because some DMs, without guidance just over use the Dm approval clauses in other rules/features.
Regardless, if I had to get rid of that, id just keep it at 2ki, the 1ki out of combat was just a slight nod to people who don't like rat exploits, and an in combat use incentive.
its not like silvery barbs because it has to be used ahead of time, and it has a save. Its closer to a mind sliver effect, which is a cantrip. It should compete in use with topple, or push. Its fine to make it -d4 like mind sliver, I was mostly trying to speed it up in play. -2 would be fine as well, but I don't see them do direct minuses often
topple gives advantage to physical attacks, and disadvantage to attacks against you, and wastes half movement.
push allows control of the battle field, and (even in 5e) extra opportunities for damage(fall dmg/aoe), it also effectively removes opportunity attacks until the enemies turn.
so a debuff on saves seems like something people might actually use.
Addle as is, is only useful because OH push is weak. A character who takes tavern brawler (5ft push guaranteed 1/round) has almost no use case. with my push, which is at least 5, they will also have no usecase.
it needs something, preferably something with the flavor of mini stun/lowering ability to react, I think this fits.
It's an entire free disengage, on a class that already has high speed, and you're proposing they put free Heighten Spell on top of it. Disagree.
Not only have you roughly doubled the crit range on a class that can easily get 5-7 attacks per round, you've done so in an unintuitive way (critting on a 10 instead of a 19... why?) I think that in your pursuit of novelty you're abandoning any semblance of consistent or coherent design. Same with the entering space thing - no other push in the game works like that. Again, aside from wacky novelty, why?
But by tying how much DP the player gets back to that variable, you're making it nakedly visible to the player. Or are you somehow hiding from them how many points they regain from their feature?
And no, not all encounter difficulties are known. Random encounter tables don't list CR/EL, and plenty of DMs use them. Even the Xanathar's tables cover level ranges that span an entire tier.
No. Mind Sliver can't debuff three enemies as a bonus action while still doing greataxe damage even if they save either.
its not a free disengage, every OH technique requires that you expended Ki. For OH its on a per turn basis, not every 10 minutes or something.you probably think of this like its an all the time thing, but its not. Monk at level 3 has 3 things it can do. thats 3 rounds tops. Ki is not infinite.
And its also in competition with push or topple. it has a resource cost, and an opportunity cost, and it isnt worth either cost. People rarely used the previous version, and it was a better skill.
the reason it uses 10, isnt just to be novel, its so that it doesnt conflict with other, or future skills that allow crits on 19. The feature in its base isnt just for monk, its for teamates as well, if your team mate is a champ who goes before the enemy gets its turn they get a benefit. And no, i dont think synergy is bad. And no, while you think crit is insanely powerful its not. Its literally a 5% increased chance to do double dice. 5% is one out of 20 attacks. and the increase in damage is less than 50% its mathematically a tiny boost, that requires you to land a hit.
Cantrips are designed to be weaker than basic attacks, and the masteries, and on hit effects of martials allow the cantrip effect across multiple attacks. This is already the design of martial "cantrips"
slow = cold snap
vex= old true strike
graze= damage on succesful save
push= infestation
pull= thorn wip.
elemental monk at level 3 gets push, or pull on every unarmed attack (not just flurry) for 10 minutes.
getting to mind sliver 3 different enemies, (and its only 2 until level 10) potentially, is totally in fitting with the design, though you would have to hit them, and then have them pass a save 65%hit chance and 50% chance to proc effect= 32% chance (mind sliver only needs a save, not a save AND a hit) and it targets a weaker save(int).
and actually mind sliver at 17 is 4d6, which is approximatelty=14 monks level 17 d12+mod is=11.5. So yes, mind sliver is doing more than d12 damage at high levels.
Even if you dont think addle needs this effect, you should expect it to have a similar effect to other cantrips on a per hit basis and compete with push and topple in usefulness.
For the DP, the DM decides, so the DM can just give them 2 ki, if they dont want the player to know its an easy fight, which is rare. (that a player wouldnt know its an easy fight) To be clear, this is essentially just DM being able to block the bag of rats issue. it could have easily been like skills that use initiative as a prerequisite. As i said, its not that important. im fine with 2ki at all times or require intiative for the effect.
It is free, because it's packaged with the thing you'd be doing with that DP anyway (flurry.)
And no, triple Heighten Spell does not fit in with any kind of design.
free means without cost, it has a cost. 'Distort Value' is free, because you should be using a spell slot anyway by your definition. Free disengage per hit looks like: your unarmed attacks make opponents unable to perform opportunity attacks until the start of next turn. That is not addle.
I'm playtesting OH monk with ele monk and mercy monk, In Descent into Avernus (currently lvl 3)And he can't flurry every turn, You have to decide on each turn if its time to pay the cost. And then you decide if you will use that limited resource on addle, it so far never been a good choice, never worth the cost. Its usecase is hyper rare.
And, you appear to just want addle to be a trash feature, because you think the power of a cantrip effect is too great on multi hits, (nvm that push/topple are cantrip effect level or higher) with lower accuracy. I already conceded to making it a -d4 like sliver. We'll just have to disagree
This is really unnecessary.
UA8 OHM is consistently doing more average damage than traditional baseline between 6-11 and is now better than many older Martial classes above 11th level for DPR. Politely, I think you are making a mistake and focusing far too closely on the OHM subclass features individually and not considering how they interact with the UA8 Monk core class changes. The disjointed Bonus Action Unarmed Strikes and the changes to Dextrous Attacks and Stunning Strike by themselves drastically improve the utility and DPR before adding the OHM 3rd level features on top of them.
Addle as written is not a trash feature. In fact, Addle shutting off reactions would be an extraordinarily overpowered feature based on what's been discussed about future monster designs. It is also usable by the OHM to turn off Opportunity Attacks for multiple creatures, not only towards the OHM but towards other players and allied NPCs. This is exactly the sort of battlefield control skill that players have been saying the Monk should excel at.
Push: You just reduced the push distance of this feature by 5 feet in exchange for an unmodified d4 damage. Also, you seem to be unaware that the Crusher feat exists, or that Elements Monk also has movement+damage+control features. This isn't just stepping on the power fantasy of other classes, this is also stepping on the power fantasy of other Monk subclasses at an earlier class level. Also, you haven't considered that the feature doesn't put a size restriction on the target - so your ability allows a Monk to just hip-check a Terrasque 5 feet out of the way by walking up to it and spending a DP.
I am assuming that the expanded crit range of Open hand: Topple was a typo on your number keys and is supposed to be 19 or 20. Even so, expanded crit range is half the 3rd level feature list of the Champion Fighter. Combine this with the Advantage obtained against Prone enemies and you have a 1 in 5 chance to get a Critical Hit with every attack and depending on party composition and buffs provided you may have up to 10 attacks before the target gets their turn. Multiclassing with this feature to get something like Action Surge and then a party member giving Haste would be a brutal 1-2 combo that would end all but the very toughest fights with this setup.
The Wholeness of Body change is unnecessary and thematically inappropriate. There is a subclass already devoted to physical and spiritual recovery, the Mercy Monk. Better to put this effect there as a unique update to a class that will want to frequently use its Discipline Points to heal and fortify itself and others.
Right now, UA8 Monk is in a great place and UA8 Open Hand really maximizes the opportunities to take advantage of that change, including early campaign versatility, mid campaign survivability, a late campaign boost to subclass capabilities across the board, and a massive endgame DPR spike.
Monks have needed a lot of help since 2014. Protecting the huge power spikes they've received here is a perfect place to keep them going foward. Even highly regarded D&D optimizer community members have been noting just how potent the UA8 Open Hand Monk is without further changes. I don't think there's much to argue for in terms of necessary buffs to any of these features - they don't all need to be 10/10 on the power curve especially when some other subclasses could maybe use some of that additional DPR and versatility.
I agree power-wise UA8 monk is fine now thanks to the revision of Stunning Strike, and the extra FoB at 11th level. The problem is that Open Hand monk isn't really giving you anything extra - If you play a monk with no subclass and take the Weapon Mastery feat at 4th level (or a 1 level dip into Fighter), then you'd be functionally indistinguishable from the Open Hand monk 90% of the time (until Quivering Palm that is). It reminds me so much of 2014 Land Druid - it just doesn't really add anything above the base class.
I am evaluating the subclass with its new context, but ultimately it is a subclass, and the question is what it adds to the base class, and how it compares with other subclasses. These features aren't doing enough.
To be clear, base monk is fine. OH monk is not.
Yes, BA decoupling is nice, but no it doesnt really make the level 3 feature good enough, primarily because all classes can now push/topple at the beginning of their turns, WITHOUT using a resource. If monk couldn't do so, it would be clearly inferior. They would either have to decouple, or make it work on all UA in order for it to be as useful as mastery, they chose the first, thats fine, but its not a great boon to the class,
I understand they have new plans for reactions, so addle needed to be changed, thats why I'm proposing a different added functionality, in line with the flavor and use cases of monk.
compare addle to mastery push. AoO are basically attacks when you leave melee range of an enemy, so if you push an enemy 5 to 10 feet away, any enemies whose square they threatened, will no longer be threatened. Both of these will only work until the monsters next turn. So push does what addle does + it has more usecases and control. The only usecase for addle is an unpushable monster, which is too niche.
also, you seem to have misread my push, it has guaranteed 5ft push, d4 on successful hit with 10 feet more on save. Elements does not own pushing, this isn't toe stepping, OH monk is the OG pushing concept. Elements monk didnt even necesarilly get push ever. if toes has been stepped, mastery and other have stepped on OH monk toes. Yes, they can hip check a tarrasque IF they land a hit, AND use Ki, AND choose push out of 3 options. these are on hit effects, you don't do them without making a roll. Not to mention, eldritch blast already can push 10 feet, no check, from a range, no resource, no subclass. All undoing here is a minimum distance push, with a damage rider, once per turn. This is far from OP or crazy.
elements can push, or pull from 15 feet away, while flying, and various elemental damage. Element's toes is AOE/aoe setup and movement, it can't own pushing.
my expanded crit range is intentionally 10 so it doesnt clash with other characters (champ, warlocks) sources of crit. its 1/20 chance of showing up, and a less than 1/10 chance with advantage. You are adding the normal chance, but that has nothing to do with the monk's power. that was always a possibility. the monk is increasing damage by .1*average dice value. per hit. this is .35 damage per hit for d6 and .65 damage per hit for d12. this is substantially less than flex, which people said was weak. And, you need to land a hit, and then land a topple+use a topple attack before you can put the debuff on a creature. And it only lasts until start of its next turn. This is a really tame boost To dps. Keep in mind OH monk in u8 has no DPS increase until 17. Meanwhile, mercy has harm, elements has fall damage, Astral gets an MA die, Ascendant has aoe breath, and others, kensei gets +1-3 per hit and AC, Shadow gets advantage/disadvantage without a save, or having to land a hit.
but OK, some fear the low power and unpredictability of the critical. Regardless OH monk isnt boosting the group dps much with no native dps, and advantage having way more sources now.
Heres the thing, people are hyped on main class monk, and not realizing OH monk is bringing very little to the table. take one lvl of fighter on any monk, you are better than OH monk until 11, or 17. And your 11 just gives more mobility, which is nice, but rarely going to be useful. fighting style+3masteries+secondwind. 3 masteries = better than OH technique. No other subclass monk, can you get a better version of the same functionality with a one level dip. except drunken master, that sub is just really bad.
don't have to like my changes, but the level 3 needs to at least be as good as 3 masteries. IMO it should be better since this costs Ki, is limited to flurry attacks, and this was originally OH monk's unique thing, but it needs to be at the very least as good. right now, topple is a better save, push is less useful 90% of the time, an addle is worse than mastery push 85% of the time. thats at best 2/3 fail.
wholeness is meh feature, and mercy monk doesnt have the space of returning ki.
people saying open hand is good early on..., it just isnt. A 1lvl dip shouldn't defeat a subclass. that just means, hit lv, 5 with a different sub, and take a dip.
shadow monk5/1fighter versus openhand6 whats the benefit? 10% more topple and 9more hp per day?
in exchange for a fighting style(AC or maneuver or damage) and 3rd mastery better than addle. and a movable darkness shadow with darkvision Come on
The cost that actually matters here is the opportunity cost, which Addle doesn't have. Without grasping that concept, any redesigns you pitch will be ineffective.
It's a good feature as currently presented. That you can't see that, or are incapable of utilizing it well, is neither my problem nor WotC's to solve.
Reminder yet again that Open Hand is almost certainly going to be the Basic Monk in 2024 just like it is now. Not deviating too far from the base class' fundamentals is therefore its job. The Land Druid comparison is apt.
But there are depths here for those who know how to optimize them. Being able to Step of the Wind and Flurry simultaneously makes OH the most effective skirmisher in core, and possibly the entire game second only to Echo Knight. Being able to take allies with you on top of that unlocks strategies no other class let alone monk subclass can replicate. The belief that a subclassless monk is indistinguishable from an OHM before Quivering Palm is just false.
I don't think you understand opportunity cost.
"Opportunity cost is the potential forgone profit from a missed opportunity—the result of choosing one alternative over another."
1) every Ki spent, is a trading an opportunity cost of anything else you can do with ki. You could stunning strike with ki, you could reaction damage with ki, or you can save it and topple/push later
2) every time you use addle, you are not using topple, you are not using push. is one addle worth a topple or a push
addle is inferior push mastery, with highly niche use case.
I meant the opportunity cost relative to DP expenditure. Addle doesn't cost you any extra DP or damage, because it's baked into the flurry itself. You're not choosing between flurry damage or addle, you get both.
Literally every character can take a willing ally with them without that ally taking AoO when they move from 1st level by first spending 1 attack to grapple that ally before moving. Sure the OH monk can move the most-est while doing so but it really is not any kind of novel tactical option. Plus by the time you get it, the Barbarian has extra movement & extra movement when they rage, the Paladin has a flying mount to carry them into combat, the Bards have flying mounts too from Magical Secrets, Rangers have Zephyr Strike, Rogues have Cunning Action, the Blade-lock has Thunderstep, the Bladesinger has Haste, so you're getting to play bus driver for... the Moondruid and the Fighter?
If you compare OH to the other "generic" subclasses:
OH gets Weapon Mastery for unarmed strikes that you'll stop using once you get Stunning Strike, a feature that is just a worse version of Second Wind, an more convenient Cunning action, and a cool unique capstone.
Hunter gets bonus offensive options (most of which are unique) they're using hopefully every turn, a unique monster-lore feature, defensive features they'll be using fairly regularly.
Thief get the unique ability to use magic items as a BA, a generic movement bonus, the unique ability to stay hidden for an entire combat, be the best at using magic items of any character in the game.
Beserker gets a unique damage feature giving them the highest DPR in the game, a great defensive feature, a damage boost they'll be using hopefully every turn, a generic fear ability
Champion gets a unique crit-fishing bonus, a generic martial feature, a unique combat bonus, improvement to a unqiue feature, a unique healing feature.
Great, so every other martial can sacrifice half their DPR to do it, or more even since only the monk is likely to have a free hand in melee while still having full damage, and they move much slower so neither of you are able to actually get away from most monsters, and they don't have addle so you're eating an OA trying to do this. Boy, you sure showed me.