the guy I was responding suggests that the stunning strike is too powerful a condition for someone to have their own version of mind sliver. Its me responding to someone literally saying stun is the most powerful condition in the game. Thats the context.
the point is that this combo is far from the most powerful combo, or condition in the game. No goal posts are moved at all.
Gwar1, I think I understand why you're not seeing the issue with adding riders to Addle, but honestly getting through some of your posts to understand your main point is a little difficult. You're going off into some kind of tangent over the usefulness of the sleep condition, or maybe it was the sleep spell, or maybe it's both, followed by another for the paralyze condition which most characters including monks won't even have access to so its relative strength is moot... when at the end of the day the main point is that your proposal for Open Hand Technique is still too strong.
You're adding a rider on top of Addle. which is itself a rider. You might think a cantrip rider is reasonable because cantrips are resourceless, whereas Addle effectively costs a resource because it's part of FoB (say, 1/2 or 1/3 of a ki* point depending on how you count it) - but Addle has other things going for it that tip the power budget scales out of whack. There's no opportunity cost because it's part of the main thing OH monks will be doing every round anyway; the damage accompanying flurry already justified its cost even before Addle itself, never mind before whatever rider you're adding on top; unlike most cantrips, flurrying leaves your action free; and as if all that weren't enough, the OH monk can throw stunning fist on top if they have the ki to spare, for no cost other than another ki. So yes, even a cantrip rider is still too much rider.
*I know, it's discipline now, but ki is faster to type
but there is an opportunity cost for addle.
first opportunity cost is, choosing this subjob over other subjobs. (could have controllable shadows, 15 reach with push/pull, etc)
the second and more direct is versus prone and versus push
imo addle's rider is no longer good enough to be a rider on its own. I also think shocking grasp is too weak now and needs something else going for it.
Even with the buff I added, addle is still a pretty hard sell in actual play. As I said, from level 3-7 I used it like three times, and never primarily for the Aoo effect. That imo means the option needs improvement. Its usecase over push is too narrow, especially if your push is guaranteed.
the best theoretical use for an OH monk with normal addle, might be making it easier for squishy allies to get in close after proning the enemy, and escaping,
but that almost never comes up. First off, you probably would rather prone a new enemy or try again after a fail, and second very few people who would even attempt getting close want to leave melee or strongly fear an AoO at disadvantage.
also, this is not an OP combo. I didnt realize it back when I made this thread, but brutal strike literally has better version of what I suggested for addle.
check staggering blow:
No saves at all, +d10-2d10 damage, no opportunity attacks and disadvantage(more than -d4.) on next saving throw, until next turn (more than until the start of the monsters next turn)
so its not that they find it to be too powerful for a resourceless ability.
addle is currently an almost never use option in real play.
It doesn't have to be "the most powerful combo" to be overtuned, though.
overtuned means its too strong, even with the increased chance of landing the next stun, it still doesnt really compete with the lockdown/control power of grapple+ prone.
without a buff, it is not even a real question 95% of the time which effect you should use.
After testing it, I'm not even particularly enthusiastic about the mind sliver rider, but its better than it is now, basically a non option.
It doesn't have to be "the most powerful combo" to be overtuned, though.
overtuned means its too strong, even with the increased chance of landing the next stun, it still doesnt really compete with the lockdown/control power of grapple+ prone.
without a buff, it is not even a real question 95% of the time which effect you should use.
After testing it, I'm not even particularly enthusiastic about the mind sliver rider, but its better than it is now, basically a non option.
Sorry but what??? Grapple + Prone similar to sleep only requires the enemy to use 1 action to end it, and there are plenty of ways to end it while also dealing damage or doing other useful things -> e.g. Thunderous Smite, Thunderwave, Telekinesis, Levitate, etc... etc... And now with weapon mastery a bunch of weapons end it as well because moving the grappler 5ft away from the grapplee (or moving the grapplee 5ft away from the grappler) instantly ends grapple with no save or check required.
Brutal Strike gets that feature at 13th level (and b/c it costs you Adv the average damage increase is like +2.5)! Not 3rd level. If this was part of an upgrade to the OHT that came online at 11th level it would be fine.
imo addle's rider is no longer good enough to be a rider on its own.
This is what you haven't convinced us of. Flurry was already worth its cost without Addle. Open Hand adding Addle on top at no additional charge is worthy of a subclass feature, especially since it's only one of three effects (four if you count SS, five if you count Fleet Step) that they can choose from to add to their flurry, which again is the thing they'll be doing most anyway. Of those, only SS has an additional cost, and its additional effect is powerful enough to justify that cost. You haven't provided any basis for buffing Addle even further past that, beyond "I just think it should be." They're not behind in damage (anymore), they 're not behind in mobility, and they're not behind in utility/control.
It doesn't have to be "the most powerful combo" to be overtuned, though.
overtuned means its too strong, even with the increased chance of landing the next stun, it still doesnt really compete with the lockdown/control power of grapple+ prone.
without a buff, it is not even a real question 95% of the time which effect you should use.
After testing it, I'm not even particularly enthusiastic about the mind sliver rider, but its better than it is now, basically a non option.
Sorry but what??? Grapple + Prone similar to sleep only requires the enemy to use 1 action to end it, and there are plenty of ways to end it while also dealing damage or doing other useful things -> e.g. Thunderous Smite, Thunderwave, Telekinesis, Levitate, etc... etc... And now with weapon mastery a bunch of weapons end it as well because moving the grappler 5ft away from the grapplee (or moving the grapplee 5ft away from the grappler) instantly ends grapple with no save or check required.
Brutal Strike gets that feature at 13th level (and b/c it costs you Adv the average damage increase is like +2.5)! Not 3rd level. If this was part of an upgrade to the OHT that came online at 11th level it would be fine.
what exactly is your contention here?
I mean I disagree with what you are saying, but what does it have to do with grapple+prone being a better situation to pursue than addle? Are you trying to say grapple or prone is so bad that will make disengage on one enemy some how a better strategy for play?
brutal strike: Staggering blow
1 has no save.
2) disadvantage versus flat reduction; disadvantage assuming 50% chance to make a save will drop your chances to 25% thats the equivalent of -5. this is almost always going to be stronger than a flat -2.5 though it varies with your base chance to escape. in order to equal 2.5 or -12.5% absolute accuracy, you need to have something ridiculous like a 15% chance to escape
3) it lasts longer. addle lasts until the start of enemies next turn, not until the end of your next turn.
so yeah brutal strike:staggering blow is 13, but what I'm proposing here is a lot worse than brutal strike.
Look, I disagree with the contention that mind sliver is an overpowered rider, which to be honest its weird to me that you now think its op. But in my tests it is far from OP, or even significantly powered, so I'm open to other suggestions. The key here is addle's use case is too narrow to compete with push and prone for the way an open hand monk plays. And it gets even worse, by 11, you have fleet step, and its use use shrinks even more, as for 1ki you double your movement speed, have disengage, and can move an ally, while using FOB.
addle is not a good option as is for OH monk, this is like a 5% or lower usecase option as is, its no good.
imo addle's rider is no longer good enough to be a rider on its own.
This is what you haven't convinced us of. Flurry was already worth its cost without Addle. Open Hand adding Addle on top at no additional charge is worthy of a subclass feature, especially since it's only one of three effects (four if you count SS, five if you count Fleet Step) that they can choose from to add to their flurry, which again is the thing they'll be doing most anyway. Of those, only SS has an additional cost, and its additional effect is powerful enough to justify that cost. You haven't provided any basis for buffing Addle even further past that, beyond "I just think it should be." They're not behind in damage (anymore), they 're not behind in mobility, and they're not behind in utility/control.
first off free doesnt mean something is fine, features exist to be useful or interesting, for OH monk addle is neither
second its not free. it has an opportunity cost; ie you give up something else when you use it.
it has to justify its existence against prone and push. IT DOESNT.
It should be part of the reason to take OH over picking up mastery, another subclass, or MC. it is not helping.
this is what opportunity cost means, every time I use addle, I give up the option to use something else.
an option, is only an option if its competitive with other options that use the same resource. Addle is not.
If I say you can choose between a burger, a chicken salad, or a lump of salt for dinner. Lump of salt is not a worthwhile option because its free. No one is picking this option.
by your reasoning staggering strike would also be fine if it was just -AoO, because hey its free, and its only one option.
If your reasoning is, yeah addle is almost completely useless for an OH monk, but its fine because prone and push are useful, we just fundamently disagree on game design, and the purpose of options.
If your reasoning is, yeah addle is almost completely useless for an OH monk, but its fine because prone and push are useful, we just fundamently disagree on game design, and the purpose of options.
That's not my reasoning at all, it's the opposite. Addle is extremely useful for an OH monk, especially given the internal synergy it gains with Fleet Step to let you get in and out of melee range of many enemies without them being able to retaliate, or you needing to spend ki on Disengaging. Thus you buffing it even further feels like overkill, especially buffing it with riders that typically require an action rather than a fraction of a bonus action.
As for comparing it to Push and Topple, remember you usually only need to land Addle once, so you're not actually trading those out for it. You still have 1-2 other hits to try for the other two, if they're even needed after your SS.
If your reasoning is, yeah addle is almost completely useless for an OH monk, but its fine because prone and push are useful, we just fundamently disagree on game design, and the purpose of options.
That's not my reasoning at all, it's the opposite. Addle is extremely useful for an OH monk, especially given the internal synergy it gains with Fleet Step to let you get in and out of melee range of many enemies without them being able to retaliate, or you needing to spend ki on Disengaging. Thus you buffing it even further feels like overkill, especially buffing it with riders that typically require an action rather than a fraction of a bonus action.
As for comparing it to Push and Topple, remember you usually only need to land Addle once, so you're not actually trading those out for it. You still have 1-2 other hits to try for the other two, if they're even needed after your SS.
have you playtested UA8 monk? you will virtually never have good reason to use one or two FOB attempts on addle.
monk no longer generally has a big reason to leave melee range. They have deflect attacks, and prone, and dex grapple. The best reason might be multiple opponents and low HP, in which case addle isn't that effective, disengage/dodge becomes more effective. Monk is generally as tanky as fighter or barbarian versus single targets now. Why are they running? Forcing the enemy to attack someone else isn't helping the team. Even more so with disadvantage. Why are they running away?
The main use of OH movement is to get to/move specific targets now, not getting away. And using your FOB on a dude in the way is not ideal. This is wasting a prone attempt, which increases your accuracy (and other melee) by 17% decreases attempts to hit anyone (from 60% to 36%) reduces movement speed by half, or sets up a very strong CC position paired with grapple. If your goal is locking down an enemy past this one guy, your FOB is much more valuable at locking down/killing that far enemy, than avoiding AoO from that dude in the way.
fleet step gives disengage and dash and carry player for 1 additional ki, at level 11 when your Ki is no longer a huge price. This is a better option in the rare case addle would be of use.
This means addle only serves any purpose at all, if you don't want to spend 1 ki for complete disengage(all enemies, doesnt require hits with FOB). Using addle give you -AoO on one dude, IF you hit him. This means once you have fleet step, you have even less reason to ever use addle again, which already has the rare use case for an OH monk of needing to retreat from enemies so much that advantage+disadvantage would not be a better use of FOB.
OH monk has, at level 3, two other tools with defensive applications on hit, usually better than addle, at level 6, they get more HP recovery per day than other monks(less need to run away), at level 11, they can disengage while using FOB for 1 ki.
Using prone gives them disadvantage to hit you, advantage on ALL following attacks that turn, and synergizes with any form of restrain/speed zero
Push also prevents one enemies AoO and gives you more control of enemy placement on the battlefield. (if the goal is to eliminate AoO and get farther from this opponent, push removes aoo, AND adds up to 15 feet distance)
You are just looking at this on paper, go play UA8 OH monk, you will have almost no use case for addle. I have looked at this on paper, playtestested most one dnd classes, and tested out 4 subjobs of monk. OH monk doesnt get almost any use from this. Its basically a trap option.
in what situation is addle the best answer to what you should spend you FOB special effect on, for an OH UA8 monk?
fleet step gives disengage and dash and carry player for 1 additional ki, at level 11 when your Ki is no longer a huge price. This is a better option in the rare case addle would be of use.
Even if I can afford the 1 ki, 0 extra ki to Addle someone is still better than 1 extra ki to Disengage. In addition, you have 8 levels before fleet step comes online, so Addle more than pays for itself even if FS is your exclusive plan once you get it.
Using prone gives them disadvantage to hit you, advantage on ALL following attacks that turn, and synergizes with any form of restrain/speed zero
Push also prevents one enemies AoO and gives you more control of enemy placement on the battlefield. (if the goal is to eliminate AoO and get farther from this opponent, push removes aoo, AND adds up to 15 feet distance)
in what situation is addle the best answer to what you should spend you FOB special effect on, for an OH UA8 monk?
You get three attacks in a flurry. If you succeeded at Toppling and you don't want to push them, that leaves Addle.
Topple is indeed better in a vacuum, but you're the one whiteroom theorycrafting here. If you already have advantage (say, you landed a SS, or you have caster allies who did... almost anything), landing a Topple is a lot less important, and knocking the enemy prone can even be detrimental to your team by giving any of your ranged allies disadvantage to hit.
As for Push - it has a save, Addle doesn't. And even if I can, I might not want to push that enemy to get away from them anyway, depending on their position on the battlefield and what they might be standing in, or which ally they might be next to.
fleet step gives disengage and dash and carry player for 1 additional ki, at level 11 when your Ki is no longer a huge price. This is a better option in the rare case addle would be of use.
Even if I can afford the 1 ki, 0 extra ki to Addle someone is still better than 1 extra ki to Disengage. In addition, you have 8 levels before fleet step comes online, so Addle more than pays for itself even if FS is your exclusive plan once you get it.
Using prone gives them disadvantage to hit you, advantage on ALL following attacks that turn, and synergizes with any form of restrain/speed zero
Push also prevents one enemies AoO and gives you more control of enemy placement on the battlefield. (if the goal is to eliminate AoO and get farther from this opponent, push removes aoo, AND adds up to 15 feet distance)
in what situation is addle the best answer to what you should spend you FOB special effect on, for an OH UA8 monk?
You get three attacks in a flurry. If you succeeded at Toppling and you don't want to push them, that leaves Addle.
Topple is indeed better in a vacuum, but you're the one whiteroom theorycrafting here. If you already have advantage (say, you landed a SS, or you have caster allies who did... almost anything), landing a Topple is a lot less important, and knocking the enemy prone can even be detrimental to your team by giving any of your ranged allies disadvantage to hit.
As for Push - it has a save, Addle doesn't. And even if I can, I might not want to push that enemy to get away from them anyway, depending on their position on the battlefield and what they might be standing in, or which ally they might be next to.
I'm not white rooming, I've literally playtested this across multiple levels.
in reality, the thing the OH monk is good at, what makes them actually unique from other classes before 11 is currently, basically topple. Thats literally, in the current design, their whole gimmick(might be nice if push/addle had more use/effectiveness). I'll also add, they will probably be taking grappler feat, as its the one with most synergy to topple, as if they just wanted topple, taking a different subclass and picking up topple mastery, will be almost as effective with whatever additional benefit the subclass has access to. Regardless, the OH monk is going to be looking for targets to CC. They are a controller/tank They will be picking the targets that most need to be locked down, and proned. Prone doesn't just give advantage, it also reduces movement, and forces disadvantage. If you have a party with no use for an OH monk proning, or pushing, they probably have no use for an OH monk at all. Your ranged guys get no use out of addle, and would prefer you grappling, pushing or threatening squares, rather than escaping. your melee bros are there to threaten squares, get in the way, or soak damage.
Point being giving addle is generally not useful. it only helps if people want to leave melee with your current target(which is rarely useful). Throwing an addle out that no one makes use of feels exactly the same as doing nothing at all. Which is one of the reasons the level 3 skill needs improvement. In the case where prone isnt useful, and you don't need to push an enemy, addle is also not particularly useful. (aka nothing is useful) and every martial has access to push/prone if they desire it.
you get 3 attacks in flurry, at lvl 10,( before that you have only 2) at lvl 11 you have fleet step, and as I pointed out, for chasing and locking down a specific target, or getting away from a dangerous situation, fleet step+1ki is better than wasting 1 attack and 1 of your FOB effects on something that is not your real target.
Push, for OH monk, should not be worse than push mastery imo(the save makes it usually worse), it should have a minimum push distance of 5. But even if it doesnt, that basically means addle is the lesser version you use because you can't risk a fail. (super low hp) which means, you probably should use a different tactic that won't fail if you miss. like disengage, or step of the wind, dodge or patient defense. If you can risk it, push/prone will give better results.
if the guy isn't worth wasting an attack, you should just risk the AoO, because you have deflect attacks anyway, and they might miss without wasting an attack, FOB, or deflect attacks.
So basically addle is the thing the OH monk uses when it can't do anything useful, that isnt particularly useful for the group, and not very useful for the OH monk.
I play monk, I tested the subclass in real situations, in a real party, in an official module, across multiple encounters. Addle as is, its usecase is too narrow, it rarely serves a purpose. I am not exaggerating when I say from level 3-8 across 5-8 encounters, it was never useful for the OH monk, or his group. And this is with 3 players, so on average more rounds in combat.
in actual play, theory crafting, or just logically, addle doesnt work well for an OH monk. Addle is actually theoretically more useful for other monks, whose features don't make them better at control/tank/chasing/escaping enemies.
They are a controller/tank They will be picking the targets that most need to be locked down, and proned. Prone doesn't just give advantage, it also reduces movement, and forces disadvantage. If you have a party with no use for an OH monk proning, or pushing, they probably have no use for an OH monk at all. Your ranged guys get no use out of addle, and would prefer you grappling, pushing or threatening squares, rather than escaping. your melee bros are there to threaten squares, get in the way, or soak damage.
See... this is where the disagreement really comes from, Monk is not a good tank. The absolutely suck at being a tank. Prior to the UA they are objectively a worse tank than a Rogue and a rogue is a mediocre tank at best. The UA with Deflect attack brings them up to parity with rogue as a tank, which isn't saying much. Proning targets IME is rarely useful, because the best condition you can impose is Dead, which means your optimal strategy as a martial is always focused fire, and grapple + proning a target is a barrier to focused fire b/c it makes it effectively impossible for your ranged party members to hit them since prone = DA and you grappling them is providing 1/2 cover. Since forced movement breaks free of a grapple and the UA has added a huge pile of forced movement and standing up doesn't reduce a target's action economy there is high likelihood of a grapple not costing an enemy any attacks at all. Ranged allies get nothing out of anything a monk can do except Stunning Strike which is why OHT will basically never be used between level 5-11 as SS is just better in everyway compared to FoB (even when FoB is combined with OHT) between those levels ( sure there is the off chance that the ranged ally is in melee and doesn't have XbowXpert but both Ranger & Rogue have excellent ways to escape melee anyway, so you're basically limited to a ranged Fighter that doesn't have XbowXpert actually needing help getting out of melee which is like... nobody...). Plus Prone needs a save which there is a 60% chance the enemy will succeed on b/c your ki DC isn't that great.
Monk is a decent skimisher/controller and OHT leans into that, the problem is that everyone else can now do it too which means OHT really isn't special anymore.
Point being giving addle is generally not useful.
I found on my OH monk that addle was a lifesaver, but only occasionally. Yes much of the time it wasn't particularly useful, but the same was the case for Push and Topple. Topple definitely has the most use - especially for knocking down flying enemies, but Addle and Push are about equally useful. TBH none of the 3rd level monk subclass abilities are all that great. But that's because the role of Monk shifts across levels, in tier 1 they are DPR, tier 2 they are kind of "meh", tier 3 they are controllers, tier 4 they are more support-skirmishers. The UA has made them more DPR/controllers.
They are a controller/tank They will be picking the targets that most need to be locked down, and proned. Prone doesn't just give advantage, it also reduces movement, and forces disadvantage. If you have a party with no use for an OH monk proning, or pushing, they probably have no use for an OH monk at all. Your ranged guys get no use out of addle, and would prefer you grappling, pushing or threatening squares, rather than escaping. your melee bros are there to threaten squares, get in the way, or soak damage.
See... this is where the disagreement really comes from, Monk is not a good tank. The absolutely suck at being a tank. Prior to the UA they are objectively a worse tank than a Rogue and a rogue is a mediocre tank at best. The UA with Deflect attack brings them up to parity with rogue as a tank, which isn't saying much. Proning targets IME is rarely useful, because the best condition you can impose is Dead, which means your optimal strategy as a martial is always focused fire, and grapple + proning a target is a barrier to focused fire b/c it makes it effectively impossible for your ranged party members to hit them since prone = DA and you grappling them is providing 1/2 cover. Since forced movement breaks free of a grapple and the UA has added a huge pile of forced movement and standing up doesn't reduce a target's action economy there is high likelihood of a grapple not costing an enemy any attacks at all. Ranged allies get nothing out of anything a monk can do except Stunning Strike which is why OHT will basically never be used between level 5-11 as SS is just better in everyway compared to FoB (even when FoB is combined with OHT) between those levels ( sure there is the off chance that the ranged ally is in melee and doesn't have XbowXpert but both Ranger & Rogue have excellent ways to escape melee anyway, so you're basically limited to a ranged Fighter that doesn't have XbowXpert actually needing help getting out of melee which is like... nobody...). Plus Prone needs a save which there is a 60% chance the enemy will succeed on b/c your ki DC isn't that great.
Monk is a decent skimisher/controller and OHT leans into that, the problem is that everyone else can now do it too which means OHT really isn't special anymore.
Point being giving addle is generally not useful.
I found on my OH monk that addle was a lifesaver, but only occasionally. Yes much of the time it wasn't particularly useful, but the same was the case for Push and Topple. Topple definitely has the most use - especially for knocking down flying enemies, but Addle and Push are about equally useful. TBH none of the 3rd level monk subclass abilities are all that great. But that's because the role of Monk shifts across levels, in tier 1 they are DPR, tier 2 they are kind of "meh", tier 3 they are controllers, tier 4 they are more support-skirmishers. The UA has made them more DPR/controllers.
when I say 'tank' in 5e, it basically means getting in the way, threatening squares, and soaking some damage. Most parties won't have anyone more tanky than a monk. And OH monk is not a baseline monk, they have prone which limits movement, and push which controls position. they get hp recovery at level 6. Deflect attacks is a HUGE increase in survivability, and I'm not sure why you are saying they are equal to rogues, seeing as how you literally did a write up of how monk was virtually tied with a battlerager fighter. Rogue is survivability in melee is not comparable.
Based on the things you say, I don't think you play normal games, you must be playing pvp where the DM anti picks you, because forced movement, for enemies is not more common in the UA. At this point enemies haven't changed at all. Enemies don't currently have mastery. They can't do multiple unarmed attacks with multi attack, enemies can only use the listed abilities with multi attack. This means either one enemy or their friend needs to expend an action that isn't on damage in order to break grapple. Grappler feat currently auto grapples on hit and gives advantage, so basically you are taking away an enemy action and giving yourself advantage, if they use it, in exchange for no part of your action economy. Even if you use one of your 4 attacks, the enemy is usually giving up all of their action. Even if they break free, their movement is screwed, which is part of tanking in 5e (limiting enemy movement). Its lose/lose for the vast majority of enemies. Either they/or ally waste an action, or they attack with disadvantage, and then you just do it again. You probably have better movement than them.
I don't need to theorize about OH monk's tank potential, I playtested it. I commonly grappled/proned 2 enemies a round, for all encounters. I played with 3 guys total, so they took more attacks than normal. I didnt really have trouble surviving and debilitating enemies level 3+
Not every group has ranged spell attack/ranged attacking allies. Note save based magic is uneffected by prone. Grapple doesnt give half cover? you can move enemies you have grappled and make them face whatever direction you want. And if its between one monk, with advantage, enemy disadvantage on all things within melee, and control of movement, versus one ranger with disadvantage, the answer is the prone is better. the ranger is free to get within five feet if they want the extra damage. If the OH monk wants to do damage, prone is the only thing that increases their, and possibly the teams dps, until level 17. so if the goal is kill fast, thats the way.
Some groups have less synergy, if your group doesn't want you proning things/tanking they have no need for OH monk at all. mastery has a more efficient and useful push, addle doesnt help ranged characters. Thats just the current design of OH monk. They are best served with a primarily melee/save oriented party. if your party has more ranged attack based people than others, you are screwed. Most other monk subs would serve your team better. If they had other options as useful as prone, or more useful than mastery, maybe they'd be useful without prone, but they don't currently.
your UA OH monk found addle a life saver? or your 2014 monk? because those are substantially different. monk can now use disengage and FOB in the same round, OH can fleet step disengage+dash for 1 ki, and they have deflect attacks, and PD is more potent with deflect attacks. The amount of ways to escape and mitigate danger has gone up. And how easily you get in danger has reduced. my OH monk was primary damage target, and they didnt need addle. Maybe you needed it because you weren't making use of prone and grapple, or because you had a MC damage focused low defense build that doesnt really represent the pure OH monk's capabilities. The OH monk without prone, is basically just a monk.
I'll say the end result, agilemind, seems to suggest UA2024 OH monk doesnt provide much of use besides prone. (and you don't find prone that useful) and thing less useful than that (addle/push)
my rework essentially adds slight dmg boost to push (you don't actually have to push to do extra dmg, push implies you can choose how far to push)
and addle can give some party members better chances to land save abilities, or the monk itself(improving chance of control)
this would give them some use cases in situations where prone isn't appropriate, while still fitting its theme of unarmed controller.
my wholeness of body change would give them more Ki, which would likely be used on more deflect attack/lstunning strike early on, and later on more fleet step with ki, and late game more quivering palm. Essentially representing more spiritual stamina. This still fits theme of having more stamina than other monks.
feel free to suggest other things, but the reason I made this rework is because IMO the base sub class isnt offering much but prone. (which has many other sources now) and I don't think thats enough in t1-t2. Fleet step is nice, but its essentially just more movement, which on its own doesn't carry a whole subclass value.
Based on the things you say, I don't think you play normal games, you must be playing pvp where the DM anti picks you, because forced movement, for enemies is not more common in the UA. At this point enemies haven't changed at all. Enemies don't currently have mastery. They can't do multiple unarmed attacks with multi attack, enemies can only use the listed abilities with multi attack.
Our table very justifiably considers both of these rulings completely stupid - e.g. a Stone Giant makes 2 great club attacks, but if you some how disarm them then suddenly they can only punch once with their fist? Or if they pick up a trunk and swing it like it was a club they can only attack once but if that same trunk is shaped a little bit differently so that it is classed as a great club they can suddenly attack twice? - It doesn't make any sense at all. So we rightfully ignore it and treat the Stone Giant as having Extra Attack but that their "Rock" ability is effectively a weapon with the "Loading" property thus can only be used once per round.
Similarly, there is no logical reason for a monster that uses a weapon to not have access to the weapon mastery of that weapon, especially if it is a monster clearly based on a player class like the Spy or Assassin. "Because the book doesn't say so" is a piss-poor excuse for these rulings, the book doesn't have a statblock for a raccoon but that doesn't mean there are no raccoons in Faerun. The vast majority of "Multiattack" is clearly just "Extra Attack" so it is ludicrous to me to treat it otherwise.
I'll say the end result, agilemind, seems to suggest UA2024 OH monk doesnt provide much of use besides prone. (and you don't find prone that useful) and thing less useful than that (addle/push)
Yes, but you are missing the point that it doesn't need to be good - and should not be good. None of the 3rd level subclass features are good for Monk, because Monk is already a powerhouse at 3rd level from their base class features. It's wasn't until Tier 2 (in 5e) that monk became lack-luster but with the changes to Stunning Strike in the latest UA they get to continue to be a powerhouse through Tier 2, and because of the extra FoB at 11th level they remain strong through tier 3 & 4 as well. They are now in the same boat as Fighter where the base class is now really good, so the subclasses should be weak.
Fleet Step and Wholeness of Body are really boring and not very useful, when I played a 5e OH monk in a campaign I used Step of the Wind for that BA Dash exactly once in the entire campaign (I used the extra jump distance a few more times but always outside of combat). And WoB competes with your BA unarmed strike / FoB so you'd be much better off strafing enemies using FoB+Addle to avoid damage than having to use WoB in combat and crippling your DPR.
Most parties won't have anyone more tanky than a monk.
What kind of games do you play in? Almost all of my campaigns have had one of : a paladin, a barbarian, or a moon druid. All of which are far more tanky than a monk.
Based on the things you say, I don't think you play normal games, you must be playing pvp where the DM anti picks you, because forced movement, for enemies is not more common in the UA. At this point enemies haven't changed at all. Enemies don't currently have mastery. They can't do multiple unarmed attacks with multi attack, enemies can only use the listed abilities with multi attack.
Our table very justifiably considers both of these rulings completely stupid - e.g. a Stone Giant makes 2 great club attacks, but if you some how disarm them then suddenly they can only punch once with their fist? Or if they pick up a trunk and swing it like it was a club they can only attack once but if that same trunk is shaped a little bit differently so that it is classed as a great club they can suddenly attack twice? - It doesn't make any sense at all. So we rightfully ignore it and treat the Stone Giant as having Extra Attack but that their "Rock" ability is effectively a weapon with the "Loading" property thus can only be used once per round.
Similarly, there is no logical reason for a monster that uses a weapon to not have access to the weapon mastery of that weapon, especially if it is a monster clearly based on a player class like the Spy or Assassin. "Because the book doesn't say so" is a piss-poor excuse for these rulings, the book doesn't have a statblock for a raccoon but that doesn't mean there are no raccoons in Faerun. The vast majority of "Multiattack" is clearly just "Extra Attack" so it is ludicrous to me to treat it otherwise.
we aren't really talking about Homebrew here, we are talking about how the phb dmg and mm will tell players to play. You cant have a discussion on UA, or proposed changes considering the unique special table rules of every single group.
its possible they change these rules, but I doubt it. Monsters are not designed to be players. If you follow monster creation guidance and give a monster everything players have, their CR would be higher than a player, and that was the 2014 player. (less features per level)
Multi attack isn't extra attack. A whole lot of multi attack is very explicit about what the monster can do, often having one of its options be stronger than the others, or giving monsters multiple weak multi attacks, instead of their strongest attack. And, even behind the curtain MA is basically all sources of attack/features/spell like abilities a monster might have access to per turn. Some are emulating attack+BA, others emulating metamagic, others emulating attack+special ability. etc. IE, A magic enemy who can do two spells in a MA wouldn't have two physical attacks. Monsters have everything baked in, and the guys meant to have multiple push/shoves/grapples per round have it baked in.
And just giving npcs mastery is not going to be balanced. The game has very specific balance when it comes to AC and hit rate in terms of monsters versus players. Giving a ton of npcs vex for example would increase their CR. And monsters who are meant to have mastery like abilities, already have mastery like abilities. (some monsters can push, prone, etc on hit). Your table can do whatever it wants, but what your are talking about would definitely totally unbalance the encounter design even more so than it already is. Your DM might have a balance for their table, or a guesstimate on how this changes encounter building, but standard DMs won't have that. They will be following modules or the DMG.
I do believe they will give monsters more abilities/features/gimmicks but I think they will be curated, tested and specific to the monster. I highly doubt they will give all monsters mastery(which none of them were designed for), or every monster MultiAttack number of unarmed strikes per round. (thats a power boost they weren't designed for)
monsters, even humanoids are not designed like players, take
what level 8 rogue can do (1d6+3 +7d6)*2+4d6 damage per turn? and guaranteed criticals on first round, so 4d6+6 + 8d6 +14d6, looking at about 92.8 damage
notice as well, the multi attack only works with melee, not with its ranged attacks. So the multi attack doesn't represent an extra attack.
monsters and players are intentionally designed and balanced differently.
Most parties won't have anyone more tanky than a monk.
What kind of games do you play in? Almost all of my campaigns have had one of : a paladin, a barbarian, or a moon druid. All of which are far more tanky than a monk.
onednd is different than 2014
barbarian isnt more tanky than a monk any more, except if there are hordes of enemies/MA. Not sure if moon druid still is, it has a lot of recovery/sustain but not a lot of mitigation, and fixed hp. And I wouldn't assume most parties have a paladin, or moon druid anyway. These classes are not extremely more popular than others, and one is a subclass. statistically, based on their released popularity, its 74% chance a 4 man party won't contain a paladin or a moon druid. And I have played and seen many parties without either of these.
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the guy I was responding suggests that the stunning strike is too powerful a condition for someone to have their own version of mind sliver. Its me responding to someone literally saying stun is the most powerful condition in the game. Thats the context.
the point is that this combo is far from the most powerful combo, or condition in the game. No goal posts are moved at all.
It doesn't have to be "the most powerful combo" to be overtuned, though.
but there is an opportunity cost for addle.
first opportunity cost is, choosing this subjob over other subjobs. (could have controllable shadows, 15 reach with push/pull, etc)
the second and more direct is versus prone and versus push
imo addle's rider is no longer good enough to be a rider on its own. I also think shocking grasp is too weak now and needs something else going for it.
Even with the buff I added, addle is still a pretty hard sell in actual play. As I said, from level 3-7 I used it like three times, and never primarily for the Aoo effect. That imo means the option needs improvement. Its usecase over push is too narrow, especially if your push is guaranteed.
the best theoretical use for an OH monk with normal addle, might be making it easier for squishy allies to get in close after proning the enemy, and escaping,
but that almost never comes up. First off, you probably would rather prone a new enemy or try again after a fail, and second very few people who would even attempt getting close want to leave melee or strongly fear an AoO at disadvantage.
also, this is not an OP combo. I didnt realize it back when I made this thread, but brutal strike literally has better version of what I suggested for addle.
check staggering blow:
No saves at all, +d10-2d10 damage, no opportunity attacks and disadvantage(more than -d4.) on next saving throw, until next turn (more than until the start of the monsters next turn)
so its not that they find it to be too powerful for a resourceless ability.
addle is currently an almost never use option in real play.
overtuned means its too strong, even with the increased chance of landing the next stun, it still doesnt really compete with the lockdown/control power of grapple+ prone.
without a buff, it is not even a real question 95% of the time which effect you should use.
After testing it, I'm not even particularly enthusiastic about the mind sliver rider, but its better than it is now, basically a non option.
Sorry but what??? Grapple + Prone similar to sleep only requires the enemy to use 1 action to end it, and there are plenty of ways to end it while also dealing damage or doing other useful things -> e.g. Thunderous Smite, Thunderwave, Telekinesis, Levitate, etc... etc... And now with weapon mastery a bunch of weapons end it as well because moving the grappler 5ft away from the grapplee (or moving the grapplee 5ft away from the grappler) instantly ends grapple with no save or check required.
Brutal Strike gets that feature at 13th level (and b/c it costs you Adv the average damage increase is like +2.5)! Not 3rd level. If this was part of an upgrade to the OHT that came online at 11th level it would be fine.
This is what you haven't convinced us of. Flurry was already worth its cost without Addle. Open Hand adding Addle on top at no additional charge is worthy of a subclass feature, especially since it's only one of three effects (four if you count SS, five if you count Fleet Step) that they can choose from to add to their flurry, which again is the thing they'll be doing most anyway. Of those, only SS has an additional cost, and its additional effect is powerful enough to justify that cost. You haven't provided any basis for buffing Addle even further past that, beyond "I just think it should be." They're not behind in damage (anymore), they 're not behind in mobility, and they're not behind in utility/control.
what exactly is your contention here?
I mean I disagree with what you are saying, but what does it have to do with grapple+prone being a better situation to pursue than addle? Are you trying to say grapple or prone is so bad that will make disengage on one enemy some how a better strategy for play?
brutal strike: Staggering blow
1 has no save.
2) disadvantage versus flat reduction; disadvantage assuming 50% chance to make a save will drop your chances to 25% thats the equivalent of -5. this is almost always going to be stronger than a flat -2.5 though it varies with your base chance to escape. in order to equal 2.5 or -12.5% absolute accuracy, you need to have something ridiculous like a 15% chance to escape
3) it lasts longer. addle lasts until the start of enemies next turn, not until the end of your next turn.
so yeah brutal strike:staggering blow is 13, but what I'm proposing here is a lot worse than brutal strike.
Look, I disagree with the contention that mind sliver is an overpowered rider, which to be honest its weird to me that you now think its op. But in my tests it is far from OP, or even significantly powered, so I'm open to other suggestions. The key here is addle's use case is too narrow to compete with push and prone for the way an open hand monk plays. And it gets even worse, by 11, you have fleet step, and its use use shrinks even more, as for 1ki you double your movement speed, have disengage, and can move an ally, while using FOB.
addle is not a good option as is for OH monk, this is like a 5% or lower usecase option as is, its no good.
first off free doesnt mean something is fine, features exist to be useful or interesting, for OH monk addle is neither
second its not free. it has an opportunity cost; ie you give up something else when you use it.
it has to justify its existence against prone and push. IT DOESNT.
It should be part of the reason to take OH over picking up mastery, another subclass, or MC. it is not helping.
this is what opportunity cost means, every time I use addle, I give up the option to use something else.
an option, is only an option if its competitive with other options that use the same resource. Addle is not.
If I say you can choose between a burger, a chicken salad, or a lump of salt for dinner. Lump of salt is not a worthwhile option because its free. No one is picking this option.
by your reasoning staggering strike would also be fine if it was just -AoO, because hey its free, and its only one option.
If your reasoning is, yeah addle is almost completely useless for an OH monk, but its fine because prone and push are useful, we just fundamently disagree on game design, and the purpose of options.
It sounds like we're at an impasse then.
That's not my reasoning at all, it's the opposite. Addle is extremely useful for an OH monk, especially given the internal synergy it gains with Fleet Step to let you get in and out of melee range of many enemies without them being able to retaliate, or you needing to spend ki on Disengaging. Thus you buffing it even further feels like overkill, especially buffing it with riders that typically require an action rather than a fraction of a bonus action.
As for comparing it to Push and Topple, remember you usually only need to land Addle once, so you're not actually trading those out for it. You still have 1-2 other hits to try for the other two, if they're even needed after your SS.
have you playtested UA8 monk? you will virtually never have good reason to use one or two FOB attempts on addle.
monk no longer generally has a big reason to leave melee range. They have deflect attacks, and prone, and dex grapple. The best reason might be multiple opponents and low HP, in which case addle isn't that effective, disengage/dodge becomes more effective. Monk is generally as tanky as fighter or barbarian versus single targets now. Why are they running? Forcing the enemy to attack someone else isn't helping the team. Even more so with disadvantage. Why are they running away?
The main use of OH movement is to get to/move specific targets now, not getting away. And using your FOB on a dude in the way is not ideal. This is wasting a prone attempt, which increases your accuracy (and other melee) by 17% decreases attempts to hit anyone (from 60% to 36%) reduces movement speed by half, or sets up a very strong CC position paired with grapple. If your goal is locking down an enemy past this one guy, your FOB is much more valuable at locking down/killing that far enemy, than avoiding AoO from that dude in the way.
fleet step gives disengage and dash and carry player for 1 additional ki, at level 11 when your Ki is no longer a huge price. This is a better option in the rare case addle would be of use.
This means addle only serves any purpose at all, if you don't want to spend 1 ki for complete disengage(all enemies, doesnt require hits with FOB). Using addle give you -AoO on one dude, IF you hit him. This means once you have fleet step, you have even less reason to ever use addle again, which already has the rare use case for an OH monk of needing to retreat from enemies so much that advantage+disadvantage would not be a better use of FOB.
OH monk has, at level 3, two other tools with defensive applications on hit, usually better than addle, at level 6, they get more HP recovery per day than other monks(less need to run away), at level 11, they can disengage while using FOB for 1 ki.
Using prone gives them disadvantage to hit you, advantage on ALL following attacks that turn, and synergizes with any form of restrain/speed zero
Push also prevents one enemies AoO and gives you more control of enemy placement on the battlefield. (if the goal is to eliminate AoO and get farther from this opponent, push removes aoo, AND adds up to 15 feet distance)
You are just looking at this on paper, go play UA8 OH monk, you will have almost no use case for addle. I have looked at this on paper, playtestested most one dnd classes, and tested out 4 subjobs of monk. OH monk doesnt get almost any use from this. Its basically a trap option.
in what situation is addle the best answer to what you should spend you FOB special effect on, for an OH UA8 monk?
Even if I can afford the 1 ki, 0 extra ki to Addle someone is still better than 1 extra ki to Disengage. In addition, you have 8 levels before fleet step comes online, so Addle more than pays for itself even if FS is your exclusive plan once you get it.
You get three attacks in a flurry. If you succeeded at Toppling and you don't want to push them, that leaves Addle.
Topple is indeed better in a vacuum, but you're the one whiteroom theorycrafting here. If you already have advantage (say, you landed a SS, or you have caster allies who did... almost anything), landing a Topple is a lot less important, and knocking the enemy prone can even be detrimental to your team by giving any of your ranged allies disadvantage to hit.
As for Push - it has a save, Addle doesn't. And even if I can, I might not want to push that enemy to get away from them anyway, depending on their position on the battlefield and what they might be standing in, or which ally they might be next to.
I'm not white rooming, I've literally playtested this across multiple levels.
in reality, the thing the OH monk is good at, what makes them actually unique from other classes before 11 is currently, basically topple. Thats literally, in the current design, their whole gimmick(might be nice if push/addle had more use/effectiveness). I'll also add, they will probably be taking grappler feat, as its the one with most synergy to topple, as if they just wanted topple, taking a different subclass and picking up topple mastery, will be almost as effective with whatever additional benefit the subclass has access to. Regardless, the OH monk is going to be looking for targets to CC. They are a controller/tank They will be picking the targets that most need to be locked down, and proned. Prone doesn't just give advantage, it also reduces movement, and forces disadvantage. If you have a party with no use for an OH monk proning, or pushing, they probably have no use for an OH monk at all. Your ranged guys get no use out of addle, and would prefer you grappling, pushing or threatening squares, rather than escaping. your melee bros are there to threaten squares, get in the way, or soak damage.
Point being giving addle is generally not useful. it only helps if people want to leave melee with your current target(which is rarely useful). Throwing an addle out that no one makes use of feels exactly the same as doing nothing at all. Which is one of the reasons the level 3 skill needs improvement. In the case where prone isnt useful, and you don't need to push an enemy, addle is also not particularly useful. (aka nothing is useful) and every martial has access to push/prone if they desire it.
you get 3 attacks in flurry, at lvl 10,( before that you have only 2) at lvl 11 you have fleet step, and as I pointed out, for chasing and locking down a specific target, or getting away from a dangerous situation, fleet step+1ki is better than wasting 1 attack and 1 of your FOB effects on something that is not your real target.
Push, for OH monk, should not be worse than push mastery imo(the save makes it usually worse), it should have a minimum push distance of 5. But even if it doesnt, that basically means addle is the lesser version you use because you can't risk a fail. (super low hp) which means, you probably should use a different tactic that won't fail if you miss. like disengage, or step of the wind, dodge or patient defense. If you can risk it, push/prone will give better results.
if the guy isn't worth wasting an attack, you should just risk the AoO, because you have deflect attacks anyway, and they might miss without wasting an attack, FOB, or deflect attacks.
So basically addle is the thing the OH monk uses when it can't do anything useful, that isnt particularly useful for the group, and not very useful for the OH monk.
I play monk, I tested the subclass in real situations, in a real party, in an official module, across multiple encounters. Addle as is, its usecase is too narrow, it rarely serves a purpose. I am not exaggerating when I say from level 3-8 across 5-8 encounters, it was never useful for the OH monk, or his group. And this is with 3 players, so on average more rounds in combat.
in actual play, theory crafting, or just logically, addle doesnt work well for an OH monk. Addle is actually theoretically more useful for other monks, whose features don't make them better at control/tank/chasing/escaping enemies.
See... this is where the disagreement really comes from, Monk is not a good tank. The absolutely suck at being a tank. Prior to the UA they are objectively a worse tank than a Rogue and a rogue is a mediocre tank at best. The UA with Deflect attack brings them up to parity with rogue as a tank, which isn't saying much. Proning targets IME is rarely useful, because the best condition you can impose is Dead, which means your optimal strategy as a martial is always focused fire, and grapple + proning a target is a barrier to focused fire b/c it makes it effectively impossible for your ranged party members to hit them since prone = DA and you grappling them is providing 1/2 cover. Since forced movement breaks free of a grapple and the UA has added a huge pile of forced movement and standing up doesn't reduce a target's action economy there is high likelihood of a grapple not costing an enemy any attacks at all. Ranged allies get nothing out of anything a monk can do except Stunning Strike which is why OHT will basically never be used between level 5-11 as SS is just better in everyway compared to FoB (even when FoB is combined with OHT) between those levels ( sure there is the off chance that the ranged ally is in melee and doesn't have XbowXpert but both Ranger & Rogue have excellent ways to escape melee anyway, so you're basically limited to a ranged Fighter that doesn't have XbowXpert actually needing help getting out of melee which is like... nobody...). Plus Prone needs a save which there is a 60% chance the enemy will succeed on b/c your ki DC isn't that great.
Monk is a decent skimisher/controller and OHT leans into that, the problem is that everyone else can now do it too which means OHT really isn't special anymore.
I found on my OH monk that addle was a lifesaver, but only occasionally. Yes much of the time it wasn't particularly useful, but the same was the case for Push and Topple. Topple definitely has the most use - especially for knocking down flying enemies, but Addle and Push are about equally useful. TBH none of the 3rd level monk subclass abilities are all that great. But that's because the role of Monk shifts across levels, in tier 1 they are DPR, tier 2 they are kind of "meh", tier 3 they are controllers, tier 4 they are more support-skirmishers. The UA has made them more DPR/controllers.
when I say 'tank' in 5e, it basically means getting in the way, threatening squares, and soaking some damage. Most parties won't have anyone more tanky than a monk. And OH monk is not a baseline monk, they have prone which limits movement, and push which controls position. they get hp recovery at level 6. Deflect attacks is a HUGE increase in survivability, and I'm not sure why you are saying they are equal to rogues, seeing as how you literally did a write up of how monk was virtually tied with a battlerager fighter. Rogue is survivability in melee is not comparable.
Based on the things you say, I don't think you play normal games, you must be playing pvp where the DM anti picks you, because forced movement, for enemies is not more common in the UA. At this point enemies haven't changed at all. Enemies don't currently have mastery. They can't do multiple unarmed attacks with multi attack, enemies can only use the listed abilities with multi attack. This means either one enemy or their friend needs to expend an action that isn't on damage in order to break grapple. Grappler feat currently auto grapples on hit and gives advantage, so basically you are taking away an enemy action and giving yourself advantage, if they use it, in exchange for no part of your action economy. Even if you use one of your 4 attacks, the enemy is usually giving up all of their action. Even if they break free, their movement is screwed, which is part of tanking in 5e (limiting enemy movement). Its lose/lose for the vast majority of enemies. Either they/or ally waste an action, or they attack with disadvantage, and then you just do it again. You probably have better movement than them.
I don't need to theorize about OH monk's tank potential, I playtested it. I commonly grappled/proned 2 enemies a round, for all encounters. I played with 3 guys total, so they took more attacks than normal. I didnt really have trouble surviving and debilitating enemies level 3+
Not every group has ranged spell attack/ranged attacking allies. Note save based magic is uneffected by prone. Grapple doesnt give half cover? you can move enemies you have grappled and make them face whatever direction you want. And if its between one monk, with advantage, enemy disadvantage on all things within melee, and control of movement, versus one ranger with disadvantage, the answer is the prone is better. the ranger is free to get within five feet if they want the extra damage. If the OH monk wants to do damage, prone is the only thing that increases their, and possibly the teams dps, until level 17. so if the goal is kill fast, thats the way.
Some groups have less synergy, if your group doesn't want you proning things/tanking they have no need for OH monk at all. mastery has a more efficient and useful push, addle doesnt help ranged characters. Thats just the current design of OH monk. They are best served with a primarily melee/save oriented party. if your party has more ranged attack based people than others, you are screwed. Most other monk subs would serve your team better. If they had other options as useful as prone, or more useful than mastery, maybe they'd be useful without prone, but they don't currently.
your UA OH monk found addle a life saver? or your 2014 monk? because those are substantially different. monk can now use disengage and FOB in the same round, OH can fleet step disengage+dash for 1 ki, and they have deflect attacks, and PD is more potent with deflect attacks. The amount of ways to escape and mitigate danger has gone up. And how easily you get in danger has reduced. my OH monk was primary damage target, and they didnt need addle. Maybe you needed it because you weren't making use of prone and grapple, or because you had a MC damage focused low defense build that doesnt really represent the pure OH monk's capabilities. The OH monk without prone, is basically just a monk.
tagging on my last reply,
I'll say the end result, agilemind, seems to suggest UA2024 OH monk doesnt provide much of use besides prone. (and you don't find prone that useful) and thing less useful than that (addle/push)
my rework essentially adds slight dmg boost to push (you don't actually have to push to do extra dmg, push implies you can choose how far to push)
and addle can give some party members better chances to land save abilities, or the monk itself(improving chance of control)
this would give them some use cases in situations where prone isn't appropriate, while still fitting its theme of unarmed controller.
my wholeness of body change would give them more Ki, which would likely be used on more deflect attack/lstunning strike early on, and later on more fleet step with ki, and late game more quivering palm. Essentially representing more spiritual stamina. This still fits theme of having more stamina than other monks.
feel free to suggest other things, but the reason I made this rework is because IMO the base sub class isnt offering much but prone. (which has many other sources now) and I don't think thats enough in t1-t2. Fleet step is nice, but its essentially just more movement, which on its own doesn't carry a whole subclass value.
Our table very justifiably considers both of these rulings completely stupid - e.g. a Stone Giant makes 2 great club attacks, but if you some how disarm them then suddenly they can only punch once with their fist? Or if they pick up a trunk and swing it like it was a club they can only attack once but if that same trunk is shaped a little bit differently so that it is classed as a great club they can suddenly attack twice? - It doesn't make any sense at all. So we rightfully ignore it and treat the Stone Giant as having Extra Attack but that their "Rock" ability is effectively a weapon with the "Loading" property thus can only be used once per round.
Similarly, there is no logical reason for a monster that uses a weapon to not have access to the weapon mastery of that weapon, especially if it is a monster clearly based on a player class like the Spy or Assassin. "Because the book doesn't say so" is a piss-poor excuse for these rulings, the book doesn't have a statblock for a raccoon but that doesn't mean there are no raccoons in Faerun. The vast majority of "Multiattack" is clearly just "Extra Attack" so it is ludicrous to me to treat it otherwise.
Yes, but you are missing the point that it doesn't need to be good - and should not be good. None of the 3rd level subclass features are good for Monk, because Monk is already a powerhouse at 3rd level from their base class features. It's wasn't until Tier 2 (in 5e) that monk became lack-luster but with the changes to Stunning Strike in the latest UA they get to continue to be a powerhouse through Tier 2, and because of the extra FoB at 11th level they remain strong through tier 3 & 4 as well. They are now in the same boat as Fighter where the base class is now really good, so the subclasses should be weak.
Fleet Step and Wholeness of Body are really boring and not very useful, when I played a 5e OH monk in a campaign I used Step of the Wind for that BA Dash exactly once in the entire campaign (I used the extra jump distance a few more times but always outside of combat). And WoB competes with your BA unarmed strike / FoB so you'd be much better off strafing enemies using FoB+Addle to avoid damage than having to use WoB in combat and crippling your DPR.
What kind of games do you play in? Almost all of my campaigns have had one of : a paladin, a barbarian, or a moon druid. All of which are far more tanky than a monk.
we aren't really talking about Homebrew here, we are talking about how the phb dmg and mm will tell players to play. You cant have a discussion on UA, or proposed changes considering the unique special table rules of every single group.
its possible they change these rules, but I doubt it. Monsters are not designed to be players. If you follow monster creation guidance and give a monster everything players have, their CR would be higher than a player, and that was the 2014 player. (less features per level)
Multi attack isn't extra attack. A whole lot of multi attack is very explicit about what the monster can do, often having one of its options be stronger than the others, or giving monsters multiple weak multi attacks, instead of their strongest attack. And, even behind the curtain MA is basically all sources of attack/features/spell like abilities a monster might have access to per turn. Some are emulating attack+BA, others emulating metamagic, others emulating attack+special ability. etc. IE, A magic enemy who can do two spells in a MA wouldn't have two physical attacks. Monsters have everything baked in, and the guys meant to have multiple push/shoves/grapples per round have it baked in.
And just giving npcs mastery is not going to be balanced. The game has very specific balance when it comes to AC and hit rate in terms of monsters versus players. Giving a ton of npcs vex for example would increase their CR. And monsters who are meant to have mastery like abilities, already have mastery like abilities. (some monsters can push, prone, etc on hit). Your table can do whatever it wants, but what your are talking about would definitely totally unbalance the encounter design even more so than it already is. Your DM might have a balance for their table, or a guesstimate on how this changes encounter building, but standard DMs won't have that. They will be following modules or the DMG.
I do believe they will give monsters more abilities/features/gimmicks but I think they will be curated, tested and specific to the monster. I highly doubt they will give all monsters mastery(which none of them were designed for), or every monster MultiAttack number of unarmed strikes per round. (thats a power boost they weren't designed for)
monsters, even humanoids are not designed like players, take
Assassin: https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/16790-assassin
what level 8 rogue can do (1d6+3 +7d6)*2+4d6 damage per turn? and guaranteed criticals on first round, so 4d6+6 + 8d6 +14d6, looking at about 92.8 damage
notice as well, the multi attack only works with melee, not with its ranged attacks. So the multi attack doesn't represent an extra attack.
monsters and players are intentionally designed and balanced differently.
onednd is different than 2014
barbarian isnt more tanky than a monk any more, except if there are hordes of enemies/MA. Not sure if moon druid still is, it has a lot of recovery/sustain but not a lot of mitigation, and fixed hp. And I wouldn't assume most parties have a paladin, or moon druid anyway. These classes are not extremely more popular than others, and one is a subclass. statistically, based on their released popularity, its 74% chance a 4 man party won't contain a paladin or a moon druid. And I have played and seen many parties without either of these.