Most parties won't have anyone more tanky than a monk.
What kind of games do you play in? Almost all of my campaigns have had one of : a paladin, a barbarian, or a moon druid. All of which are far more tanky than a monk.
onednd is different than 2014
barbarian isnt more tanky than a monk any more, except if there are hordes of enemies/MA. Not sure if moon druid still is, it has a lot of recovery/sustain but not a lot of mitigation, and fixed hp. And I wouldn't assume most parties have a paladin, or moon druid anyway. These classes are not extremely more popular than others, and one is a subclass. statistically, based on their released popularity, its 74% chance a 4 man party won't contain a paladin or a moon druid. And I have played and seen many parties without either of these.
Ok my turn.. what game are you playing in? Monsters haven't changed which means Barbarian is just as tanky as it ever was, and even 5e was designed around multiple enemies with multiple attacks per combat, or solo enemies with even more attacks per round. A dragon gets 6 attacks per round, giants live in groups so you should be fighting half a dozen at a time, vampires get 5 attacks per round and should be surrounded by spawn, mindflayers live in hives, goblinkin live in tribes, beholders have 6 attacks per round (none of which can be Deflected), etc... etc... Monk is as tanky as a Rogue, which isn't particularly tanky at all.
Most parties won't have anyone more tanky than a monk.
What kind of games do you play in? Almost all of my campaigns have had one of : a paladin, a barbarian, or a moon druid. All of which are far more tanky than a monk.
onednd is different than 2014
barbarian isnt more tanky than a monk any more, except if there are hordes of enemies/MA. Not sure if moon druid still is, it has a lot of recovery/sustain but not a lot of mitigation, and fixed hp. And I wouldn't assume most parties have a paladin, or moon druid anyway. These classes are not extremely more popular than others, and one is a subclass. statistically, based on their released popularity, its 74% chance a 4 man party won't contain a paladin or a moon druid. And I have played and seen many parties without either of these.
Ok my turn.. what game are you playing in? Monsters haven't changed which means Barbarian is just as tanky as it ever was, and even 5e was designed around multiple enemies with multiple attacks per combat, or solo enemies with even more attacks per round. A dragon gets 6 attacks per round, giants live in groups so you should be fighting half a dozen at a time, vampires get 5 attacks per round and should be surrounded by spawn, mindflayers live in hives, goblinkin live in tribes, beholders have 6 attacks per round (none of which can be Deflected), etc... etc... Monk is as tanky as a Rogue, which isn't particularly tanky at all.
barbarian has changed, but its still got lots of HP, and rage. But monk has changed to become more defensive with deflect attacks, BA separate from attacks, and heightened discipline PD.
monk is fine with multiple enemies, multiple attacks, the question is how many. They have different strengths and weaknesses defensively, but in average situations they perform similarly.
By the time you are talking about legendary dragons, you are high teir, probably level 14-20.
lets look at CR 14 back dragon.
monk will save 65% of the time versus breath/wing, and take zero damage on save.
barbarian will save 49% of the time, taking half damage on save.
monk will have 19 AC, with dodge/PD they will only get hit 42% of the time. deflect attacks negates 1 attack, PD gives, on average 11 temp HP.
Barbarian will have 19AC with a shield, they will get hit 65% of the time, halving each attack. Mathematically the monk takes less damage per round but Barbarian has more HP.
The monk is actually tankier, but if you throw in some minions, it gets closer. the monk is also using a resource.
A vampire alone wouldn't even break the monks defenses very often versus heightened PD. and deflect, So I hope they have a lot of minions. I doubt anyone else would be doing much better in that situation though.
rogue doesnt have PD, deflect attacks, the ability to dodge and attack in the same round, or heightened PD. They also don't get superior defense, or mind and body. They are no where near monk in terms of mitigation potential in one dnd.
barbarian has changed, but its still got lots of HP, and rage. But monk has changed to become more defensive with deflect attacks, BA separate from attacks, and heightened discipline PD.
monk is fine with multiple enemies, multiple attacks, the question is how many. They have different strengths and weaknesses defensively, but in average situations they perform similarly.
By the time you are talking about legendary dragons, you are high teir, probably level 14-20.
lets look at CR 14 back dragon.
Sorry, but are you saying a party of 4 level 14 players would fight 1x CR 14 black dragon? Sorry but no, that is barely a medium difficulty fight at best, at level 14 you should be fighting 2-3 CR 14 dragons at the same time, probably with some minions as well. And a solo vampire is barely a challenge for level 6 PCs - I just ran a combat with 4x unoptimized level 6 PCs vs 2x buffed giant spiders + 1x vampire and they won without a single character dropping to 0 hp. I've previously run 2x vampires + 3x vampire spawn vs a party of 6x level 7 PCs as a mini-boss fight prior to the BBEG (who was a HBed spellcaster vampire).
A CR 14 black dragon is an appropriate challenge for a level 8-10 party, depending on the number of players. I've personally DMed a CR 13 adult White Dragon against a party of 6x level 6-10 players in a WM game where I gave the dragon 150 extra HP and they won with only 2 characters going unconscious.
When I ran a boss combat for a party of 6x level 12-14 characters (after a 12x shadows mini-combat) it contained: 1x vampire spellcaster (with a HB ability giving -2 penalty to attempts to counterspell her), 1x vampire warrior, 2x iron golems + 1 charmed level 12 PC.
monk will have 19 AC, with dodge/PD they will only get hit 42% of the time. deflect attacks negates 1 attack, PD gives, on average 11 temp HP.
Who in their right mind is using PD, at these levels? Are you crazy?! Giving up more than 50% of your damage to barely match the survivability of a barbarian is utter insanity because it means over the course of that fight you are taking 2X more damage total since the enemy is going to survive 2X as long since you are utterly failing at killing it. Plus you'd be far far better off using Stunning Strike to prevent 100% of the dragon's damage for 1 round while also, you know, being effective at killing it.
barbarian has changed, but its still got lots of HP, and rage. But monk has changed to become more defensive with deflect attacks, BA separate from attacks, and heightened discipline PD.
monk is fine with multiple enemies, multiple attacks, the question is how many. They have different strengths and weaknesses defensively, but in average situations they perform similarly.
By the time you are talking about legendary dragons, you are high teir, probably level 14-20.
lets look at CR 14 back dragon.
Sorry, but are you saying a party of 4 level 14 players would fight 1x CR 14 black dragon? Sorry but no, that is barely a medium difficulty fight at best, at level 14 you should be fighting 2-3 CR 14 dragons at the same time, probably with some minions as well. And a solo vampire is barely a challenge for level 6 PCs - I just ran a combat with 4x unoptimized level 6 PCs vs 2x buffed giant spiders + 1x vampire and they won without a single character dropping to 0 hp. I've previously run 2x vampires + 3x vampire spawn vs a party of 6x level 7 PCs as a mini-boss fight prior to the BBEG (who was a HBed spellcaster vampire).
A CR 14 black dragon is an appropriate challenge for a level 8-10 party, depending on the number of players. I've personally DMed a CR 13 adult White Dragon against a party of 6x level 6-10 players in a WM game where I gave the dragon 150 extra HP and they won with only 2 characters going unconscious.
When I ran a boss combat for a party of 6x level 12-14 characters (after a 12x shadows mini-combat) it contained: 1x vampire spellcaster (with a HB ability giving -2 penalty to attempts to counterspell her), 1x vampire warrior, 2x iron golems + 1 charmed level 12 PC.
monk will have 19 AC, with dodge/PD they will only get hit 42% of the time. deflect attacks negates 1 attack, PD gives, on average 11 temp HP.
Who in their right mind is using PD, at these levels? Are you crazy?! Giving up more than 50% of your damage to barely match the survivability of a barbarian is utter insanity because it means over the course of that fight you are taking 2X more damage total since the enemy is going to survive 2X as long since you are utterly failing at killing it. Plus you'd be far far better off using Stunning Strike to prevent 100% of the dragon's damage for 1 round while also, you know, being effective at killing it.
if you got 4 people, that doesnt mean every monster will be on the tanky charachters in 5e, and other members will be providing damage/cc/support
also the encounter building doesn't reccommed going +6 CR, due to scaling on AC damage, etc. It can be done, but you are likely to perms kill characters. DMs can do it if the table is highly experienced/geared or has higher number of players, but they generally reccomend more enemies, or slight increases in CR.
specifically, an 1 adult dragon CR14 is worth about 2 players in a deadly fight. (deadly means huge resource cost, and players might die) for a 4man group its a normal difficulty fight. so 2 dragons for a 4 man group would still be a deadly fight.
tank in 5e doesnt mean every monster is hitting you, there is no way to force monsters to do that. Tank in 5e means locking down one guy maybe, and threatening 2-4 enemies
you asked about the monk as a tank, if the barb is using reckless, and no shield (about 100% more dps) they perform similar defensively to the monk not using dodge. I'm comparing like to like.
Also the monster doesnt last 2x as long with one person tanking. in a 4 person party, the monk is reducing their DPR, but the other players are not. Also note, the monk can switch to offense any time they don't need to be tanking during the fight (with no action for shield) so they likely won't be 50% the whole time (like if there is only one dragon, and they stun it)
and whats the point of bringing up stunning? the Tank monk or the dps monk will both be using stunning? both will have the benefit.
and whats the point of bringing up stunning? the Tank monk or the dps monk will both be using stunning? both will have the benefit.
They will not b/c PD and SS both require DP, so you can't keep doing both for the whole fight. In general SS > PD, as it offers better DPR and better damage reduction than PD. Beyond level 11, there is no reason to use PD really at all, because FoB + Action-Dodge is better and costs the same as Action-Attack + PD.
Tank in 5e means locking down one guy maybe, and threatening 2-4 enemies
If you are threatening 2-4 enemies then why wouldn't those 2-4 enemies attack you? Are you assuming the entire party is on the frontline? If you're only taking on 1 guy then you're not tanking any more than anyone else in the party is, as you will usually have as many enemies as PCs in any given combat, and in many cases many more enemies than PCs.
and whats the point of bringing up stunning? the Tank monk or the dps monk will both be using stunning? both will have the benefit.
They will not b/c PD and SS both require DP, so you can't keep doing both for the whole fight. In general SS > PD, as it offers better DPR and better damage reduction than PD. Beyond level 11, there is no reason to use PD really at all, because FoB + Action-Dodge is better and costs the same as Action-Attack + PD.
at level 14, you can easily keep up stun+pd, (2ki per round)just like a dps monk will be doing FOB+Stun.(2ki per round) these are not in competition. This shouldn't be a problem from level 11 onwards. the only thing competing is PD and FOB
dodge+FOB is slightly more offense for less defense (PD gives about 11 hp per round) you use each depending on the situation on the ground, I Am talking about PD, because it is the maximum defense, and compares most directly to the two hit barbarian/fighter using a shield. Of course the monk tank will adjust tactics and defense vs offense depending on what is needed in that round.
Gwar1, I once again have no idea what you're arguing for. If you're saying monks will be doing fine in 2024, then why in Zuoken's name are you recommending they add even more free riders to Open Hand Technique? Open Hand is the Basic subclass!
Gwar1, I once again have no idea what you're arguing for. If you're saying monks will be doing fine in 2024, then why in Zuoken's name are you recommending they add even more free riders to Open Hand Technique? Open Hand is the Basic subclass!
Monk base class is fine. Open Hand isnt fine.
There isn't a good reason to take Open Hand over a different subclass.
Having tested Open Hand, the only thing it really has going for it is getting both topple and grapple at level 4 instead of 8, and its flavor is less gimmicky.
If you are willing to MC fighter lvl 1, it has nothing going for it.
1 level of fighter gives;
3 masteries which is better than open hand technique (choose 3 out of push, topple, slow nick vex changeable each day)
1 fighting style, twf+ nick equals an extra attack, defense = more AC, dueling = +4 dpr, superior technique = maneuver.
2 second winds, 1 returns per SR, giving monk essentially 4-5 heals a day. d10+1 which is slightly less than wholeness of body, but you get it earlier
martial weapon access for dedicated weapon. So its essentially with 1 level, better than 6 levels of OH monk.
Open Hand is failing at competing with other monk subclasses. Thats what it needs to do, and its not succeeding.
Shadow has better shutdown, control, and battlefield control
elements, by level 11, has better range, aoe, movement, and battlefield control (flight + pull = prone+damage) and grapple with 15 foot reach.
mercy has better DPR, recovery, team benefit, and can pick up mastery for similar CC,
Open hand is struggling versus the other choices.
There isn't supposed to be one sub clearly worse than the others in the phb, 'basic' or not. If there is, now is the time to solve that issue.
But it's not worse than the others. Topple is a solid damage boost. Push and Fleet Step make you a great team player. Addle enables skirmish tactics the others can't do. Quivering Palm is a huge damage spike.
The one feature I agree with you is on is Wholeness of Body, and I said as much in my survey.
But it's not worse than the others. Topple is a solid damage boost. Push and Fleet Step make you a great team player. Addle enables skirmish tactics the others can't do. Quivering Palm is a huge damage spike.
The one feature I agree with you is on is Wholeness of Body, and I said as much in my survey.
In a world where every martial or martial lite gets 2 masteries, (and last UA monk had mastery) and there is a feat for mastery, open hand technique (the level 3 feature) is not good/unique enough to make the subclass work/compete. Practically any lvl 1 MC martial or warlock dip gets you openhand technique functionality, every other martial can do this for free. Its not relatively good any more. Back before they gave a better version of openhand technique to every martial(2-3 on hit attack riders, from a list of 8, changeable each day), it was good/unique. Now its an (inferior)monk flavored level 1 martial feature at the cost of a level 3 subclass feature.
subclasses can't have their defining features so late game. by level 7 a subclass needs to have at least one game defining feature, because most modules and games don't reach 12+
so while fleet step is unique (though not always useful) and quivering palm may create a new nova dpr loop, those can't be the core reason to play the subclass.
either the 6th or 3rd needs to be a a subclass defining skill, or the level 3 and 6 need to be improved.
We've circled back around to OHT isn't good enough because WM exists despite OHT targeting better saves (and in Push's case, being strictly more powerful) on top of being attached to a superior weapon for the monk. So it looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.
we can agree to disagree, doesn't mean you are correct though. for those reading, looking at the cons of OHT vs Masteries
1)WM exists for every martial at level 1. not as a subclass feature. Subclasses need gamechanging, unique or powerful features early. Its one of the reasons they scrapped brawler, which also had a better version of OHT at level 3. (choose between 6 masteries on hit)
2) push(OH) is 15 feet with a 50% chance to save versus 100% 10 foot push on hit, that applies to attack action, bonus action and reaction attacks. So on average, push will push farther, be more reliable, which literally gives it better utility, like escaping enemies, and reaction based control (like PAM pushing an approaching enemy out of melee range)
3) mastery for barb and fighter(the other pure martials) can choose from 3 effects, out of 8 choices, and change them each day.
4) tied to a better weapon? subjective. masteries can be tied to reach, Pam, gwm, ranged, 2d6 weapons and d12 weapons from level 1. Unarmed attacks are not ' better' than other weapons.
5) OHT is tied to FOB only, which requires Ki, Bonus Action. Mastery applies to any and every attack.
the only thing OHT has going for it is, (usually)10% better chance to land prone, and push works huge+ monsters. That doesn't outweigh its minuses, make it unique enough or powerful enough to justify it as a level 3 subclass feature.
if they had a barbarian sub whose level 3 feature was, +2 to your topple save, push gets a strength save, but works on huge+ monsters and +5 feet, and push and topple only work on attack action attacks, no one would be impressed. And that version of mastery would still be better than OHT.
how many level 3 subclass features are worse than one level 1 subfeature?
We've circled back around to OHT isn't good enough because WM exists despite OHT targeting better saves (and in Push's case, being strictly more powerful) on top of being attached to a superior weapon for the monk. So it looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.
You may be correct that it targets better saves, but is that enough to justify it as a subclasses defining feature? Before WM, it did indeed. But now the differences are so small it doesn’t feel appropriate as the subclasses 3rd level feature.
You may be correct that it targets better saves, but is that enough to justify it as a subclasses defining feature? Before WM, it did indeed. But now the differences are so small it doesn’t feel appropriate as the subclasses 3rd level feature.
"WM exists" is irrelevant for a class that doesn't get it without a feat*, and even with that feat, only gets one, for which Nick would be a far better choice for them than Topple anyway.
"WM exists" is irrelevant for a class that doesn't get it without a feat*, and even with that feat, only gets one, for which Nick would be a far better choice for them than Topple anyway.
*Or multiclass, which has tradeoffs of its own.
This is the main issue. It feels like the only reason WM was taken from the Monk was because how bad Open Hand looks compared to any other subclass using topple WM. WM was presented as this fun new thing that all the weapon focused combatants would have, but then it was taken from the monk because it made an entire subclass seem pointless. It may have been because Nick was probably too good of a low level damage boost since the monks bonus action attack and FOB are still allowed when use Nick, but the timing of them removing WM feels like it was because of the problems it caused Open Hand. Open Hand as presented is worse than any other UA monk when you look at providing a unique fun experience to the player.
I recommend you take another look at Silvva's build if you truly believe Open Hand is worse than every other monk subclass. But if you still believe that.. .well, the survey is closed but you can always insert it into the next one or email them. Personally, aside from Wholeness of Body, I disagree.
I recommend you take another look at Silvva's build if you truly believe Open Hand is worse than every other monk subclass. But if you still believe that.. .well, the survey is closed but you can always insert it into the next one or email them. Personally, aside from Wholeness of Body, I disagree.
Open hand technique loses it charm in 5eR. If you truly believe it’s still somehow special I don’t see how. Honestly Shadow was the better pick in 5e and even with some of the best spells that came with shadow missing in the UA it is still better than Open Hand in combat and out. 5e Elements was trash but the new usable Elements is objectively better than Open Hand. Mercy is easily better than open hand. The easiest way to prove all other Monks are better it is to give Monk back WM. There was nothing added to the base Monk’s kit that could be considered a replacement for WM. It shouldn’t have been removed. It’s weird now that Paladin’s, Rangers, Walocks, and a Clericget it, but Monks don’t. I already did the survey. Whatever we get is what will get at this point. I don’t expect too many major changes. I have been off the forums for a while and came back and saw this topic still going. I almost couldn’t believe that someone was arguing that Open Hand is in a good place, but I guess that is just the internet . We will all have our own opinions and most don’t matter anyway. It’s not like every subclass needs to be up to everyone’s standards. Not like anyone would have the opportunity to play all the subclasses in real sessions anyway. Most people want every subclass to be something they want to play. I wouldn’t play open hand monk.
I think I’ve used this example before but if 1DD added Rage to every martial with the exception of the bonus rage damage would that feature on barbarian ( with the rage damage) still make it a satisfying standalone 1st level feature?
Maybe you think it does. But I don’t. Freeing up OHT from FoB would be a step in the right direction
I recommend you take another look at Silvva's build if you truly believe Open Hand is worse than every other monk subclass. But if you still believe that.. .well, the survey is closed but you can always insert it into the next one or email them. Personally, aside from Wholeness of Body, I disagree.
Ok, you mean the mod's comment in another thread, He was theory crafting, I have tested it. You can do the same thing he suggested with an
elements monk with grapple and mastery. or fighter 1 elements monk,
Also, he overestimated the ability to grapple and prone, because grappler feat is once per turn, and requires the attack action.
the main thing he said the class brings is fleet step, which doubles movement, but elements monk only needs to get within 15 feet of targets, so not having to run 15 feet towards, and 15 feet back to the group saves you 30 movement. In fact since he wants to grapple two targets, that saves even more.
also, since elements has flying, they can prone any enemy by dropping them (+d6 damage). so in his scenario, the elements monk can achieve the same exact thing with flying and pull/push with 15 feet movement with more damage. (And they can do it with just the main attack action or just the BA action, instead of needing both) since they can stay 15 feet away, they won't need to use addle at all.
they are also not going to be effected by difficult terrain.
and, since they can grapple from 15 feet in the air, its harder to remove their grapple, and they have no danger from melee attacks on grappled enemies.
on top of that, they excel at AOE. so can take better advantage of grouped up enemies in other turns.
and thats without even a fighter lvl 1 MC, which will give them essentially most of the powers of OH monk, while still having all that.
OH monk isn't cutting it.
Seriously, the big advantage of OH monk is just getting to play with prone and grapple at level 4 instead of later, and a MC fighter Monk can do that at 6, and other subclasses (pure monk) can do it at 8. Elements can do it at 11 via flying.
Ok my turn.. what game are you playing in? Monsters haven't changed which means Barbarian is just as tanky as it ever was, and even 5e was designed around multiple enemies with multiple attacks per combat, or solo enemies with even more attacks per round. A dragon gets 6 attacks per round, giants live in groups so you should be fighting half a dozen at a time, vampires get 5 attacks per round and should be surrounded by spawn, mindflayers live in hives, goblinkin live in tribes, beholders have 6 attacks per round (none of which can be Deflected), etc... etc... Monk is as tanky as a Rogue, which isn't particularly tanky at all.
barbarian has changed, but its still got lots of HP, and rage. But monk has changed to become more defensive with deflect attacks, BA separate from attacks, and heightened discipline PD.
monk is fine with multiple enemies, multiple attacks, the question is how many. They have different strengths and weaknesses defensively, but in average situations they perform similarly.
By the time you are talking about legendary dragons, you are high teir, probably level 14-20.
lets look at CR 14 back dragon.
monk will save 65% of the time versus breath/wing, and take zero damage on save.
barbarian will save 49% of the time, taking half damage on save.
monk will have 19 AC, with dodge/PD they will only get hit 42% of the time. deflect attacks negates 1 attack, PD gives, on average 11 temp HP.
Barbarian will have 19AC with a shield, they will get hit 65% of the time, halving each attack. Mathematically the monk takes less damage per round but Barbarian has more HP.
The monk is actually tankier, but if you throw in some minions, it gets closer. the monk is also using a resource.
A vampire alone wouldn't even break the monks defenses very often versus heightened PD. and deflect, So I hope they have a lot of minions. I doubt anyone else would be doing much better in that situation though.
rogue doesnt have PD, deflect attacks, the ability to dodge and attack in the same round, or heightened PD. They also don't get superior defense, or mind and body. They are no where near monk in terms of mitigation potential in one dnd.
Sorry, but are you saying a party of 4 level 14 players would fight 1x CR 14 black dragon? Sorry but no, that is barely a medium difficulty fight at best, at level 14 you should be fighting 2-3 CR 14 dragons at the same time, probably with some minions as well. And a solo vampire is barely a challenge for level 6 PCs - I just ran a combat with 4x unoptimized level 6 PCs vs 2x buffed giant spiders + 1x vampire and they won without a single character dropping to 0 hp. I've previously run 2x vampires + 3x vampire spawn vs a party of 6x level 7 PCs as a mini-boss fight prior to the BBEG (who was a HBed spellcaster vampire).
A CR 14 black dragon is an appropriate challenge for a level 8-10 party, depending on the number of players. I've personally DMed a CR 13 adult White Dragon against a party of 6x level 6-10 players in a WM game where I gave the dragon 150 extra HP and they won with only 2 characters going unconscious.
When I ran a boss combat for a party of 6x level 12-14 characters (after a 12x shadows mini-combat) it contained: 1x vampire spellcaster (with a HB ability giving -2 penalty to attempts to counterspell her), 1x vampire warrior, 2x iron golems + 1 charmed level 12 PC.
Who in their right mind is using PD, at these levels? Are you crazy?! Giving up more than 50% of your damage to barely match the survivability of a barbarian is utter insanity because it means over the course of that fight you are taking 2X more damage total since the enemy is going to survive 2X as long since you are utterly failing at killing it. Plus you'd be far far better off using Stunning Strike to prevent 100% of the dragon's damage for 1 round while also, you know, being effective at killing it.
if you got 4 people, that doesnt mean every monster will be on the tanky charachters in 5e, and other members will be providing damage/cc/support
also the encounter building doesn't reccommed going +6 CR, due to scaling on AC damage, etc. It can be done, but you are likely to perms kill characters. DMs can do it if the table is highly experienced/geared or has higher number of players, but they generally reccomend more enemies, or slight increases in CR.
specifically, an 1 adult dragon CR14 is worth about 2 players in a deadly fight. (deadly means huge resource cost, and players might die) for a 4man group its a normal difficulty fight. so 2 dragons for a 4 man group would still be a deadly fight.
tank in 5e doesnt mean every monster is hitting you, there is no way to force monsters to do that. Tank in 5e means locking down one guy maybe, and threatening 2-4 enemies
you asked about the monk as a tank, if the barb is using reckless, and no shield (about 100% more dps) they perform similar defensively to the monk not using dodge. I'm comparing like to like.
Also the monster doesnt last 2x as long with one person tanking. in a 4 person party, the monk is reducing their DPR, but the other players are not. Also note, the monk can switch to offense any time they don't need to be tanking during the fight (with no action for shield) so they likely won't be 50% the whole time (like if there is only one dragon, and they stun it)
and whats the point of bringing up stunning? the Tank monk or the dps monk will both be using stunning? both will have the benefit.
They will not b/c PD and SS both require DP, so you can't keep doing both for the whole fight. In general SS > PD, as it offers better DPR and better damage reduction than PD. Beyond level 11, there is no reason to use PD really at all, because FoB + Action-Dodge is better and costs the same as Action-Attack + PD.
If you are threatening 2-4 enemies then why wouldn't those 2-4 enemies attack you? Are you assuming the entire party is on the frontline? If you're only taking on 1 guy then you're not tanking any more than anyone else in the party is, as you will usually have as many enemies as PCs in any given combat, and in many cases many more enemies than PCs.
at level 14, you can easily keep up stun+pd, (2ki per round)just like a dps monk will be doing FOB+Stun.(2ki per round) these are not in competition. This shouldn't be a problem from level 11 onwards. the only thing competing is PD and FOB
dodge+FOB is slightly more offense for less defense (PD gives about 11 hp per round) you use each depending on the situation on the ground, I Am talking about PD, because it is the maximum defense, and compares most directly to the two hit barbarian/fighter using a shield. Of course the monk tank will adjust tactics and defense vs offense depending on what is needed in that round.
Gwar1, I once again have no idea what you're arguing for. If you're saying monks will be doing fine in 2024, then why in Zuoken's name are you recommending they add even more free riders to Open Hand Technique? Open Hand is the Basic subclass!
Monk base class is fine. Open Hand isnt fine.
There isn't a good reason to take Open Hand over a different subclass.
Having tested Open Hand, the only thing it really has going for it is getting both topple and grapple at level 4 instead of 8, and its flavor is less gimmicky.
If you are willing to MC fighter lvl 1, it has nothing going for it.
1 level of fighter gives;
3 masteries which is better than open hand technique (choose 3 out of push, topple, slow nick vex changeable each day)
1 fighting style, twf+ nick equals an extra attack, defense = more AC, dueling = +4 dpr, superior technique = maneuver.
2 second winds, 1 returns per SR, giving monk essentially 4-5 heals a day. d10+1 which is slightly less than wholeness of body, but you get it earlier
martial weapon access for dedicated weapon. So its essentially with 1 level, better than 6 levels of OH monk.
Open Hand is failing at competing with other monk subclasses. Thats what it needs to do, and its not succeeding.
Shadow has better shutdown, control, and battlefield control
elements, by level 11, has better range, aoe, movement, and battlefield control (flight + pull = prone+damage) and grapple with 15 foot reach.
mercy has better DPR, recovery, team benefit, and can pick up mastery for similar CC,
Open hand is struggling versus the other choices.
There isn't supposed to be one sub clearly worse than the others in the phb, 'basic' or not. If there is, now is the time to solve that issue.
But it's not worse than the others. Topple is a solid damage boost. Push and Fleet Step make you a great team player. Addle enables skirmish tactics the others can't do. Quivering Palm is a huge damage spike.
The one feature I agree with you is on is Wholeness of Body, and I said as much in my survey.
In a world where every martial or martial lite gets 2 masteries, (and last UA monk had mastery) and there is a feat for mastery, open hand technique (the level 3 feature) is not good/unique enough to make the subclass work/compete. Practically any lvl 1 MC martial or warlock dip gets you openhand technique functionality, every other martial can do this for free. Its not relatively good any more. Back before they gave a better version of openhand technique to every martial(2-3 on hit attack riders, from a list of 8, changeable each day), it was good/unique. Now its an (inferior)monk flavored level 1 martial feature at the cost of a level 3 subclass feature.
subclasses can't have their defining features so late game. by level 7 a subclass needs to have at least one game defining feature, because most modules and games don't reach 12+
so while fleet step is unique (though not always useful) and quivering palm may create a new nova dpr loop, those can't be the core reason to play the subclass.
either the 6th or 3rd needs to be a a subclass defining skill, or the level 3 and 6 need to be improved.
We've circled back around to OHT isn't good enough because WM exists despite OHT targeting better saves (and in Push's case, being strictly more powerful) on top of being attached to a superior weapon for the monk. So it looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.
we can agree to disagree, doesn't mean you are correct though. for those reading, looking at the cons of OHT vs Masteries
1)WM exists for every martial at level 1. not as a subclass feature. Subclasses need gamechanging, unique or powerful features early. Its one of the reasons they scrapped brawler, which also had a better version of OHT at level 3. (choose between 6 masteries on hit)
2) push(OH) is 15 feet with a 50% chance to save versus 100% 10 foot push on hit, that applies to attack action, bonus action and reaction attacks. So on average, push will push farther, be more reliable, which literally gives it better utility, like escaping enemies, and reaction based control (like PAM pushing an approaching enemy out of melee range)
3) mastery for barb and fighter(the other pure martials) can choose from 3 effects, out of 8 choices, and change them each day.
4) tied to a better weapon? subjective. masteries can be tied to reach, Pam, gwm, ranged, 2d6 weapons and d12 weapons from level 1. Unarmed attacks are not ' better' than other weapons.
5) OHT is tied to FOB only, which requires Ki, Bonus Action. Mastery applies to any and every attack.
the only thing OHT has going for it is, (usually)10% better chance to land prone, and push works huge+ monsters. That doesn't outweigh its minuses, make it unique enough or powerful enough to justify it as a level 3 subclass feature.
if they had a barbarian sub whose level 3 feature was, +2 to your topple save, push gets a strength save, but works on huge+ monsters and +5 feet, and push and topple only work on attack action attacks, no one would be impressed. And that version of mastery would still be better than OHT.
how many level 3 subclass features are worse than one level 1 subfeature?
You may be correct that it targets better saves, but is that enough to justify it as a subclasses defining feature? Before WM, it did indeed. But now the differences are so small it doesn’t feel appropriate as the subclasses 3rd level feature.
You're entitled to your opinion.
"WM exists" is irrelevant for a class that doesn't get it without a feat*, and even with that feat, only gets one, for which Nick would be a far better choice for them than Topple anyway.
*Or multiclass, which has tradeoffs of its own.
This is the main issue. It feels like the only reason WM was taken from the Monk was because how bad Open Hand looks compared to any other subclass using topple WM. WM was presented as this fun new thing that all the weapon focused combatants would have, but then it was taken from the monk because it made an entire subclass seem pointless. It may have been because Nick was probably too good of a low level damage boost since the monks bonus action attack and FOB are still allowed when use Nick, but the timing of them removing WM feels like it was because of the problems it caused Open Hand. Open Hand as presented is worse than any other UA monk when you look at providing a unique fun experience to the player.
I recommend you take another look at Silvva's build if you truly believe Open Hand is worse than every other monk subclass. But if you still believe that.. .well, the survey is closed but you can always insert it into the next one or email them. Personally, aside from Wholeness of Body, I disagree.
Open hand technique loses it charm in 5eR. If you truly believe it’s still somehow special I don’t see how. Honestly Shadow was the better pick in 5e and even with some of the best spells that came with shadow missing in the UA it is still better than Open Hand in combat and out. 5e Elements was trash but the new usable Elements is objectively better than Open Hand. Mercy is easily better than open hand. The easiest way to prove all other Monks are better it is to give Monk back WM. There was nothing added to the base Monk’s kit that could be considered a replacement for WM. It shouldn’t have been removed. It’s weird now that Paladin’s, Rangers, Walocks, and a Clericget it, but Monks don’t.
I already did the survey. Whatever we get is what will get at this point. I don’t expect too many major changes. I have been off the forums for a while and came back and saw this topic still going. I almost couldn’t believe that someone was arguing that Open Hand is in a good place, but I guess that is just the internet . We will all have our own opinions and most don’t matter anyway. It’s not like every subclass needs to be up to everyone’s standards. Not like anyone would have the opportunity to play all the subclasses in real sessions anyway. Most people want every subclass to be something they want to play. I wouldn’t play open hand monk.
I think I’ve used this example before but if 1DD added Rage to every martial with the exception of the bonus rage damage would that feature on barbarian ( with the rage damage) still make it a satisfying standalone 1st level feature?
Maybe you think it does. But I don’t. Freeing up OHT from FoB would be a step in the right direction
Ok, you mean the mod's comment in another thread, He was theory crafting, I have tested it. You can do the same thing he suggested with an
elements monk with grapple and mastery. or fighter 1 elements monk,
Also, he overestimated the ability to grapple and prone, because grappler feat is once per turn, and requires the attack action.
the main thing he said the class brings is fleet step, which doubles movement, but elements monk only needs to get within 15 feet of targets, so not having to run 15 feet towards, and 15 feet back to the group saves you 30 movement. In fact since he wants to grapple two targets, that saves even more.
also, since elements has flying, they can prone any enemy by dropping them (+d6 damage). so in his scenario, the elements monk can achieve the same exact thing with flying and pull/push with 15 feet movement with more damage. (And they can do it with just the main attack action or just the BA action, instead of needing both) since they can stay 15 feet away, they won't need to use addle at all.
they are also not going to be effected by difficult terrain.
and, since they can grapple from 15 feet in the air, its harder to remove their grapple, and they have no danger from melee attacks on grappled enemies.
on top of that, they excel at AOE. so can take better advantage of grouped up enemies in other turns.
and thats without even a fighter lvl 1 MC, which will give them essentially most of the powers of OH monk, while still having all that.
OH monk isn't cutting it.
Seriously, the big advantage of OH monk is just getting to play with prone and grapple at level 4 instead of later, and a MC fighter Monk can do that at 6, and other subclasses (pure monk) can do it at 8. Elements can do it at 11 via flying.