I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
Mechanically maybe. But I am not a fan of dips for abilities. You are taking a class and that should mean something beyond i get this pile of abilities for the low low cost of one level. Like if you want to play a fighter who is also a wizard, sure fighter and wizard multiclass makes sense. But hey I want to play something like a kensai, have you considered monk and making a pact with the demon blade. On the mechanical side D&D isn't a build a bear system, its multi class system is not designed for that as they over stack the low levels with more abilities so the class comes into its own early on. If everyone at the table is on the same page it can work but usually it means one grossly over powered character and 3 others. On a thematic/story/setting side taking a class should have more meaning than whatever pile of abilities they give you at level 1.
edit given your next post i may have misunderstood you. A single class hexblade does not fit thematically with a martial artist who masters weapons imo.
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
Sorry but what? Hexblade is smooth talking (high CHA class), with no physical abilities at all, just a magic sword that does the fighting for them. Kensei is an agile (DEX-based), warrior with versatility for ranged or melee combat and who forsakes armour instead relying on speed and exceptional reflexes to dodge bullets and deflect blows. A Battlemaster Fighter is closer to a Kensei than a Hexblade Warlock, but lacks the mystical component, Bladesinger is pretty close but is too magic focused.
Think:
TMNTs, Morpheus from the Matrix, most of the characters in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon,, etc...
Or the dozens of IRL martial arts that focus on using weapons not just your body.
Sure you could multiclass monk & fighter to do it, but why not just have a subclass that serves that trope? Many other subclasses are just hybrids of two other classes - EK Fighter, AT Rogue, Hexblade, Swords/Valor Bard, Bladesinger, War Cleric (UA version), Hunter Ranger.
You are reading too heavily into the fluff. There is absolutely NOTHING about the _mechanics_ of the class which require conceptualizing it as getting it's powers from an outside source.
Further, as I've pointed out, the trope of the sword saint includes an exceptional and usually supernatural weapon.
You are not reading into the fluff enough. D&D is not a point buy build your character system without fluff. I love hero games and fantasy hero is one of my favorite fantasy games, but D&D is not that. And even if it were a full caster with a limited range of sword mastery abilities is no where near the same as a martial artist with supernatural abilities. Being able to cast the jump spell at will does not fulfill the crouching tiger imagery. The class does not have the physicality of a monk almost like it gets its power from outside and not within.
You are reading too heavily into the fluff. There is absolutely NOTHING about the _mechanics_ of the class which require conceptualizing it as getting it's powers from an outside source.
Further, as I've pointed out, the trope of the sword saint includes an exceptional and usually supernatural weapon.
You are not reading into the fluff enough. D&D is not a point buy build your character system without fluff. I love hero games and fantasy hero is one of my favorite fantasy games, but D&D is not that. And even if it were a full caster with a limited range of sword mastery abilities is no where near the same as a martial artist with supernatural abilities. Being able to cast the jump spell at will does not fulfill the crouching tiger imagery. The class does not have the physicality of a monk almost like it gets its power from outside and not within.
Tell me, please, how the _mechanics_ of the Hexblade demand that all their powers be conceived as coming from outside the character. Help me understand.
While you're at it, if you wouldn't mind, please explain why it is okay to change both the fluff and the mechanics of the Monk to conceptualize a character whose powers do not come completely from within (namely a kensei who is, in fact, dependent on his weapon), but not okay to change only the fluff of the Hexblade to attain the same goal.
"Being able to cast the jump spell at will does not fulfill the crouching tiger imagery" Why not?
In point of fact, if you examine the sword saint trope, you see many abilities which, in myth and in the game, are magical. These abilities include the ability to hypnotize their opponent (1st level spell Charm Person, 3rd level spell Hypnotic Pattern), the ability to commune with their ancestors (5th level spell Commune), the ability to resist damage (1st level spell Absorb Elements), etc.
Because you are actually casting a spell, chanting and waving your hands and then all you do is jump a bit further. You aren't just jumping further due to your innate abilities and training, you are casting a spell. You aren't running across water, you just jump a bit further. And while a couple spells might match some sword saint myths the rest don't and you have 9 freaking spell levels of this. some spells fitting when 20 that you have don't means its not a great class for this. The hexblade can represent some things if you want to ignore all the fluff which I think is a bad idea, but it wont represent the physicality of what people want from a kensai.
What's a sword-saint? I've never heard of that before. Kensei is a martial artist that uses weapons with those arts. That weapon isn't necessarily magical in anyway, but they can do things that seem like magic because of how skilled they are at using it.
Pandekar:
Silat folklore is replete with tales of fighters possessing such skills as the ability to run very rapidly, vanish in a puff of smoke and reappear, change form, dash across the surface of water, turn invisible, or leap to the roof of a house.
Sounds like a Shadow Monk to me.
Katana from DC is a Kensei Monk holding Blackrazor.
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
You’re right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
I think sometimes you need to divorce yourself from the lore WOTC provides you and remember that the class is a mechanical chassis. If the lore, doesn't make sense but the mechanics do make sense, take the mechanical tool they have provided you, and skin it appropriately to fit your character concept.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
You’re right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
If the Hexbalde's power came from the weapon, then a 1st level character would be just as powerful as a 20th level character. After all, the weapon doesn't change. The Kensei spends his life dedicated to mastering the weapon and it is only through that lifelong dedication that he develops the ability to unlock more of the weapon.
That’s like saying a 1st level fiend warlock should be the same as a 20th level fiend warlock. But that’s not how it works. The patron bestows power incrementally as the PC furthers the patrons goals, knowingly or unknowingly. At least that’s how I see it
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
You’re right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
If the Hexbalde's power came from the weapon, then a 1st level character would be just as powerful as a 20th level character. After all, the weapon doesn't change. The Kensei spends his life dedicated to mastering the weapon and it is only through that lifelong dedication that he develops the ability to unlock more of the weapon.
That’s like saying a 1st level fiend warlock should be the same as a 20th level fiend warlock. But that’s not how it works. The patron bestows power incrementally as the PC furthers the patrons goals, knowingly or unknowingly. At least that’s how I see it
Respectfully, a patron isn't omniscient or all wise. They bestow power incrementally as they perceive / understand / interpret the PC's actions as furthering the patron's goals.
As such, I contend, it is a similar situation to a Kensei mastering a weapon. The kensei masters a weapon and learns to unlock more of the weapon. The warlock grifts his patron and learns to unlock more of the patron's boons.
Having said that, you might have made a stronger argument if you had discussed clerics of gods which are omniscient and all wise. However, I'm not entirely sure that any such deity even exists in a world of multiple equal gods.
Omniscient or all wise had nothing to do with my argument. The warlocks power comes from the patron not the weapon. From the class description:
You have made your pact with a mysterious entity from the Shadowfell — a force that manifests in sentient magic weapons carved from the stuff of shadow. The mighty sword Blackrazor is the most notable of these weapons, which have been spread across the multiverse over the ages. The shadowy force behind these weapons can offer power to warlocks who form pacts with it. Many hexblade warlocks create weapons that emulate those formed in the Shadowfell. Others forgo such arms, content to weave the dark magic of that plane into their spellcasting.
The weapon a Hexblade wields is usually not the actual sentient weapon. A 1st level Hexblade isn’t wielding Blackrazor but may wield a weapon that looks like it, or of Blade pact, form a blade to look like it. Or if they find a magic weapon use that and still have their patrons power. And as part of their pact, the patron grants additional powers over time (levels).
while a Kensei monk hones their inner power and skill with a weapon through dedication and focus and, just like training in anything, gets better over time and “unlocks” new abilities.
Don’t get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem flavoring anything to fit a theme. I could very well see a Hexblade as a weapon master. And I do look at many classes as just a bag of mechanics to create whatever fantasy you’re looking for. I just think of the Kensei as one who gains their abilities from themselves and not gained from outside via a patron. But play it however you like.
None of these are for the PHB obviously because that's a done deal.
1) I want them to take another stab at a true caster-gish monk; make it a 1/3 caster like EK and AT, drawing from the Cleric list. They can bring back the name Sacred Fist from Complete Divine if they want. A monk that can cast healing spells and dive into melee at high levels with Spirit Guardians would be really nice to see.
2) I want them to revisit the Sun Soul as the de facto ranged/ki-blast monk option. The Radiant Sun Bolts are actually decent now (though I'd vastly prefer 60' range), it's the other three abilities that need to be buffed considerably, especially the subcapstone.
3) Astral Self doesn't need much, it just needs to go all-in on being the "Wis-SAD" monk. Let it use Wis for face skills like Fey Wanderer does. Wis to attack and damage is already there. Like Open Hand and Mercy, this should be a monk that doesn't want to even glance at a weapon.
4) Kensei (renamed to Sword Saint maybe? Warrior of Iron?) should be the thematic opposite of Astral Self, this is the monk that wants to use weapons exclusively. Weapon Mastery, archery, fighting styles, flurry with weapons, this should be the monk that pretty much never punches.
The only Monk I don't think they need to revisit is Drunken Master - 2024 Open Hand does pretty much everything it was trying to do, but better.
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
You’re right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
I think sometimes you need to divorce yourself from the lore WOTC provides you and remember that the class is a mechanical chassis. If the lore, doesn't make sense but the mechanics do make sense, take the mechanical tool they have provided you, and skin it appropriately to fit your character concept.
‘yea you can do it but there are many rough edges. Overall it ends up creating a different vibe.
Being defeated by counterspell, anti magic fields, lacking stats in dexterity and wisdom for acrobatics, grapples, resisting mental attacks.
not having unarmed attacks in addition to your weapon.
Then there is a bunch of weapon feats which don’t match the chr stat.
Now missing an ability like deflect attacks.
‘being dependent on medium armor
The hex blade isn’t going to seem like a martial artist with a magic weapon in totality, it’s going to feel like a magic weapon guy. That might fit someone’s fantasy, but it’s not really the same fantasy as monk who has mastered a weapon, and become one with it.
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
You’re right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
I think sometimes you need to divorce yourself from the lore WOTC provides you and remember that the class is a mechanical chassis. If the lore, doesn't make sense but the mechanics do make sense, take the mechanical tool they have provided you, and skin it appropriately to fit your character concept.
‘yea you can do it but there are many rough edges. Overall it ends up creating a different vibe.
Being defeated by counterspell, anti magic fields, lacking stats in dexterity and wisdom for acrobatics, grapples, resisting mental attacks.
not having unarmed attacks in addition to your weapon.
Then there is a bunch of weapon feats which don’t match the chr stat.
Now missing an ability like deflect attacks.
‘being dependent on medium armor
The hex blade isn’t going to seem like a martial artist with a magic weapon in totality, it’s going to feel like a magic weapon guy. That might fit someone’s fantasy, but it’s not really the same fantasy as monk who has mastered a weapon, and become one with it.
I really don't have a problem with it being affected by anti-magic. It is all aspects of the weave. Unlike ki, which is entirely internal to a monk, if the focus is outside of the monk (as a weapon is), I reason that focus-energy should be more vulnerable to being disrupted.
But I'm not going to try to convince you, just try to clarify why ^I^ don't find your arguments convincing. There's enough problems with the game producers telling us what is badwrongfun for us to add anything more to that heap.
im pointing out that what people are looking for from kensei isn’t supplied by a hex blade warlock. I’m not saying the class is bad, or cannot be used to represent some sword fantasies, merely that it isn’t what many people are looking for when they pick kensei.
its fine that it satisfies you, but we are mostly talking about what subclasses monk players are looking for, not so much whether hex blade is cool. ‘and the hex blade, mechanically, and flavor wise offers a fairly different experience.
Based on this thread it would appear that "some" = "everyone other than you".
If you are happy with a "sword saint" that is SAD on Charisma, great good for you. But that isn't what a Kensei Monk is, it is a completely different character. This is the flavour text for what a Kensei monk is:
Monks of the Way of the Kensei train relentlessly with their weapons, to the point where the weapon becomes an extension of the body. Founded on a mastery of sword fighting, the tradition has expanded to include many different weapons.
A kensei sees a weapon in much the same way a calligrapher or painter regards a pen or brush. Whatever the weapon, the kensei views it as a tool used to express the beauty and precision of the martial arts. That such mastery makes a kensei a peerless warrior is but a side effect of intense devotion, practice, and study.
Note that:
Kensei use multiple weapons, Hexblade uses only one.
Kensei using their physical abilities to fight, Hexblade uses charisma & armour.
Kensei is non-magical, Hexblade casts spells, summons specters, and magically teleports around the battlefield.
The only thing they have in common is they both use swords. A Battlemaster Fighter is more similar to a Kensei than a Hexblade is.
Based on this thread it would appear that "some" = "everyone other than you".
If you are happy with a "sword saint" that is SAD on Charisma, great good for you. But that isn't what a Kensei Monk is, it is a completely different character. This is the flavour text for what a Kensei monk is:
Monks of the Way of the Kensei train relentlessly with their weapons, to the point where the weapon becomes an extension of the body. Founded on a mastery of sword fighting, the tradition has expanded to include many different weapons.
A kensei sees a weapon in much the same way a calligrapher or painter regards a pen or brush. Whatever the weapon, the kensei views it as a tool used to express the beauty and precision of the martial arts. That such mastery makes a kensei a peerless warrior is but a side effect of intense devotion, practice, and study.
Note that:
Kensei use multiple weapons, Hexblade uses only one.
Kensei using their physical abilities to fight, Hexblade uses charisma & armour.
Kensei is non-magical, Hexblade casts spells, summons specters, and magically teleports around the battlefield.
The only thing they have in common is they both use swords. A Battlemaster Fighter is more similar to a Kensei than a Hexblade is.
Excellent summation of what many of us think of when we want to play a Kensei
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
You’re right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
I think sometimes you need to divorce yourself from the lore WOTC provides you and remember that the class is a mechanical chassis. If the lore, doesn't make sense but the mechanics do make sense, take the mechanical tool they have provided you, and skin it appropriately to fit your character concept.
‘yea you can do it but there are many rough edges. Overall it ends up creating a different vibe.
Being defeated by counterspell, anti magic fields, lacking stats in dexterity and wisdom for acrobatics, grapples, resisting mental attacks.
not having unarmed attacks in addition to your weapon.
Then there is a bunch of weapon feats which don’t match the chr stat.
Now missing an ability like deflect attacks.
‘being dependent on medium armor
The hex blade isn’t going to seem like a martial artist with a magic weapon in totality, it’s going to feel like a magic weapon guy. That might fit someone’s fantasy, but it’s not really the same fantasy as monk who has mastered a weapon, and become one with it.
I really don't have a problem with it being affected by anti-magic. It is all aspects of the weave. Unlike ki, which is entirely internal to a monk, if the focus is outside of the monk (as a weapon is), I reason that focus-energy should be more vulnerable to being disrupted.
But I'm not going to try to convince you, just try to clarify why ^I^ don't find your arguments convincing. There's enough problems with the game producers telling us what is badwrongfun for us to add anything more to that heap.
im pointing out that what people are looking for from kensei isn’t supplied by a hex blade warlock. I’m not saying the class is bad, or cannot be used to represent some sword fantasies, merely that it isn’t what many people are looking for when they pick kensei.
its fine that it satisfies you, but we are mostly talking about what subclasses monk players are looking for, not so much whether hex blade is cool. ‘and the hex blade, mechanically, and flavor wise offers a fairly different experience.
"im pointing out that what people are looking for from kensei isn’t supplied by a hex blade warlock."
You mean what _some_ people are looking for.
And I've not denied that. I was up front about it from my very first post.
And that's why third-party content exists.
if what you are looking for is not monk, than why post it in a discussion about monk subclasses? Hexblade and warlock represent a mage who uses a magical weapon. not just flavorwise, but mechanically.
It is the same as being like, if i want to play a monk healer, just play cleric. Cleric is nothing like the way of the mercy monk, hexblade is nothing like a kensei monk.
Hexblade would fit some hong kong cinema fantasy charachters, but monk isnt supposed to represent everything you see in a hong kong cinema. Some of those charachters a better represented as sorcerers, fighters, warlocks, etc.
i think you felt like the point of kensei monk is a magic weapon user with cultural flavor, which is not the point, or playstyle at all.
It is just a sharp lump of steel to anyone who isn't a hexblade.
It is magical because it can dematerialize and rematerialize in the hand of it's warlock when summoned. It is fundamentally a magical weapon bound to the warlock, because it is part of a magical contract or "pact" between a magical entity and that warlock.
so can a Monk of the Four Elements
Not in 2024 they cannot be, but also Four Elements is not Kensei. Just because an Arcane Trickster or an Eldritch Knight can be counterspelled doesn't mean an Assassin or a Battlemaster is a magical spellcasting being.
"Not in 2024 they cannot be, but also Four Elements is not Kensei. Just because an Arcane Trickster or an Eldritch Knight can be counterspelled doesn't mean an Assassin or a Battlemaster is a magical spellcasting being."
The argument was made that, since a Hexblade's powers can be dispelled, that means that those powers are something other than what a monk does. I disproved that argument by pointing out that monk powers, such as those of the Path of the Four Elements, can be dispelled.
Yes and my argument which I clearly have to spell out for you is because one subclass has a power doesn't make it an inherent aspect of the class Just because Arcane Trickster can cast spells, and Eldritch Knight can cast spells doesn't mean Fighters or Rogues by their nature cast spells. Hence the fact that 2014 Four elements monk casts spells has nothing to do with whether Kensei or general monk abilities should act like spells..
"Not in 2024 they cannot be, but also Four Elements is not Kensei. Just because an Arcane Trickster or an Eldritch Knight can be counterspelled doesn't mean an Assassin or a Battlemaster is a magical spellcasting being."
The argument was made that, since a Hexblade's powers can be dispelled, that means that those powers are something other than what a monk does. I disproved that argument by pointing out that monk powers, such as those of the Path of the Four Elements, can be dispelled.
Yes and my argument which I clearly have to spell out for you is because one subclass has a power doesn't make it an inherent aspect of the class Just because Arcane Trickster can cast spells, and Eldritch Knight can cast spells doesn't mean Fighters or Rogues by their nature cast spells. Hence the fact that 2014 Four elements monk casts spells has nothing to do with whether Kensei or general monk abilities should act like spells..
I didn't claim that all monk powers are vulnerable to anti-magic. I only pointed out that some monk powers are. And pointing out that some of them are is sufficient to disprove the claim "hexblade powers are fundamentally different from monk powers because they are vulnerable to dispel magic"
Sorry but what is your point? You cherry picked one argument that was slightly poorly phrased to be too general and disproved it with an example that is irrelevant to the topic of the argument.
Are we or are we not arguing that Hexblade Warlock is equivalent to Kensei Monk?
If we are, then Four Elements Monk has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I and others have presented dozens of arguments that they are different none of which you have "disproved" - could you please write your rebuttal to those? If we aren't then could you please clarify what you are arguing?
"Not in 2024 they cannot be, but also Four Elements is not Kensei. Just because an Arcane Trickster or an Eldritch Knight can be counterspelled doesn't mean an Assassin or a Battlemaster is a magical spellcasting being."
The argument was made that, since a Hexblade's powers can be dispelled, that means that those powers are something other than what a monk does. I disproved that argument by pointing out that monk powers, such as those of the Path of the Four Elements, can be dispelled.
Yes and my argument which I clearly have to spell out for you is because one subclass has a power doesn't make it an inherent aspect of the class Just because Arcane Trickster can cast spells, and Eldritch Knight can cast spells doesn't mean Fighters or Rogues by their nature cast spells. Hence the fact that 2014 Four elements monk casts spells has nothing to do with whether Kensei or general monk abilities should act like spells..
I didn't claim that all monk powers are vulnerable to anti-magic. I only pointed out that some monk powers are. And pointing out that some of them are is sufficient to disprove the claim "hexblade powers are fundamentally different from monk powers because they are vulnerable to dispel magic"
Sorry but what is your point? You cherry picked one argument that was slightly poorly phrased to be too general and disproved it with an example that is irrelevant to the topic of the argument.
Are we or are we not arguing that Hexblade Warlock is equivalent to Kensei Monk?
If we are, then Four Elements Monk has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I and others have presented dozens of arguments that they are different none of which you have "disproved" - could you please write your rebuttal to those? If we aren't then could you please clarify what you are arguing?
I addressed several arguments.
1.) the issue about countermagic
2.) the false claim that a haxblade weapon is, itself, magical
If you bind a non magical weapon to you I guess it is not magical. but the one you create out of nothing, i'm pretty sure is. It disappears into nothingness if its more than 5 feet away from you for a short time. non magical things tend not to do that.
Mechanically maybe. But I am not a fan of dips for abilities. You are taking a class and that should mean something beyond i get this pile of abilities for the low low cost of one level. Like if you want to play a fighter who is also a wizard, sure fighter and wizard multiclass makes sense. But hey I want to play something like a kensai, have you considered monk and making a pact with the demon blade. On the mechanical side D&D isn't a build a bear system, its multi class system is not designed for that as they over stack the low levels with more abilities so the class comes into its own early on. If everyone at the table is on the same page it can work but usually it means one grossly over powered character and 3 others. On a thematic/story/setting side taking a class should have more meaning than whatever pile of abilities they give you at level 1.
edit given your next post i may have misunderstood you. A single class hexblade does not fit thematically with a martial artist who masters weapons imo.
A warlock gains their power from an outside source a monk gains it from within.
Sorry but what? Hexblade is smooth talking (high CHA class), with no physical abilities at all, just a magic sword that does the fighting for them. Kensei is an agile (DEX-based), warrior with versatility for ranged or melee combat and who forsakes armour instead relying on speed and exceptional reflexes to dodge bullets and deflect blows. A Battlemaster Fighter is closer to a Kensei than a Hexblade Warlock, but lacks the mystical component, Bladesinger is pretty close but is too magic focused.
Think:
TMNTs, Morpheus from the Matrix, most of the characters in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon,, etc...
Or the dozens of IRL martial arts that focus on using weapons not just your body.
Sure you could multiclass monk & fighter to do it, but why not just have a subclass that serves that trope? Many other subclasses are just hybrids of two other classes - EK Fighter, AT Rogue, Hexblade, Swords/Valor Bard, Bladesinger, War Cleric (UA version), Hunter Ranger.
You are not reading into the fluff enough. D&D is not a point buy build your character system without fluff. I love hero games and fantasy hero is one of my favorite fantasy games, but D&D is not that. And even if it were a full caster with a limited range of sword mastery abilities is no where near the same as a martial artist with supernatural abilities. Being able to cast the jump spell at will does not fulfill the crouching tiger imagery. The class does not have the physicality of a monk almost like it gets its power from outside and not within.
Because you are actually casting a spell, chanting and waving your hands and then all you do is jump a bit further. You aren't just jumping further due to your innate abilities and training, you are casting a spell. You aren't running across water, you just jump a bit further. And while a couple spells might match some sword saint myths the rest don't and you have 9 freaking spell levels of this. some spells fitting when 20 that you have don't means its not a great class for this. The hexblade can represent some things if you want to ignore all the fluff which I think is a bad idea, but it wont represent the physicality of what people want from a kensai.
What's a sword-saint? I've never heard of that before. Kensei is a martial artist that uses weapons with those arts. That weapon isn't necessarily magical in anyway, but they can do things that seem like magic because of how skilled they are at using it.
Pandekar:
Sounds like a Shadow Monk to me.
Katana from DC is a Kensei Monk holding Blackrazor.
I think sometimes you need to divorce yourself from the lore WOTC provides you and remember that the class is a mechanical chassis. If the lore, doesn't make sense but the mechanics do make sense, take the mechanical tool they have provided you, and skin it appropriately to fit your character concept.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
That’s like saying a 1st level fiend warlock should be the same as a 20th level fiend warlock. But that’s not how it works. The patron bestows power incrementally as the PC furthers the patrons goals, knowingly or unknowingly. At least that’s how I see it
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Omniscient or all wise had nothing to do with my argument. The warlocks power comes from the patron not the weapon. From the class description:
The weapon a Hexblade wields is usually not the actual sentient weapon. A 1st level Hexblade isn’t wielding Blackrazor but may wield a weapon that looks like it, or of Blade pact, form a blade to look like it. Or if they find a magic weapon use that and still have their patrons power. And as part of their pact, the patron grants additional powers over time (levels).
while a Kensei monk hones their inner power and skill with a weapon through dedication and focus and, just like training in anything, gets better over time and “unlocks” new abilities.
Don’t get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem flavoring anything to fit a theme. I could very well see a Hexblade as a weapon master. And I do look at many classes as just a bag of mechanics to create whatever fantasy you’re looking for. I just think of the Kensei as one who gains their abilities from themselves and not gained from outside via a patron. But play it however you like.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
None of these are for the PHB obviously because that's a done deal.
1) I want them to take another stab at a true caster-gish monk; make it a 1/3 caster like EK and AT, drawing from the Cleric list. They can bring back the name Sacred Fist from Complete Divine if they want. A monk that can cast healing spells and dive into melee at high levels with Spirit Guardians would be really nice to see.
2) I want them to revisit the Sun Soul as the de facto ranged/ki-blast monk option. The Radiant Sun Bolts are actually decent now (though I'd vastly prefer 60' range), it's the other three abilities that need to be buffed considerably, especially the subcapstone.
3) Astral Self doesn't need much, it just needs to go all-in on being the "Wis-SAD" monk. Let it use Wis for face skills like Fey Wanderer does. Wis to attack and damage is already there. Like Open Hand and Mercy, this should be a monk that doesn't want to even glance at a weapon.
4) Kensei (renamed to Sword Saint maybe? Warrior of Iron?) should be the thematic opposite of Astral Self, this is the monk that wants to use weapons exclusively. Weapon Mastery, archery, fighting styles, flurry with weapons, this should be the monk that pretty much never punches.
The only Monk I don't think they need to revisit is Drunken Master - 2024 Open Hand does pretty much everything it was trying to do, but better.
‘yea you can do it but there are many rough edges. Overall it ends up creating a different vibe.
Being defeated by counterspell, anti magic fields, lacking stats in dexterity and wisdom for acrobatics, grapples, resisting mental attacks.
not having unarmed attacks in addition to your weapon.
Then there is a bunch of weapon feats which don’t match the chr stat.
Now missing an ability like deflect attacks.
‘being dependent on medium armor
The hex blade isn’t going to seem like a martial artist with a magic weapon in totality, it’s going to feel like a magic weapon guy. That might fit someone’s fantasy, but it’s not really the same fantasy as monk who has mastered a weapon, and become one with it.
im pointing out that what people are looking for from kensei isn’t supplied by a hex blade warlock. I’m not saying the class is bad, or cannot be used to represent some sword fantasies, merely that it isn’t what many people are looking for when they pick kensei.
its fine that it satisfies you, but we are mostly talking about what subclasses monk players are looking for, not so much whether hex blade is cool.
‘and the hex blade, mechanically, and flavor wise offers a fairly different experience.
Based on this thread it would appear that "some" = "everyone other than you".
If you are happy with a "sword saint" that is SAD on Charisma, great good for you. But that isn't what a Kensei Monk is, it is a completely different character. This is the flavour text for what a Kensei monk is:
Note that:
Kensei use multiple weapons, Hexblade uses only one.
Kensei using their physical abilities to fight, Hexblade uses charisma & armour.
Kensei is non-magical, Hexblade casts spells, summons specters, and magically teleports around the battlefield.
The only thing they have in common is they both use swords. A Battlemaster Fighter is more similar to a Kensei than a Hexblade is.
Excellent summation of what many of us think of when we want to play a Kensei
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
if what you are looking for is not monk, than why post it in a discussion about monk subclasses? Hexblade and warlock represent a mage who uses a magical weapon. not just flavorwise, but mechanically.
It is the same as being like, if i want to play a monk healer, just play cleric. Cleric is nothing like the way of the mercy monk, hexblade is nothing like a kensei monk.
Hexblade would fit some hong kong cinema fantasy charachters, but monk isnt supposed to represent everything you see in a hong kong cinema. Some of those charachters a better represented as sorcerers, fighters, warlocks, etc.
i think you felt like the point of kensei monk is a magic weapon user with cultural flavor, which is not the point, or playstyle at all.
It is magical because it can dematerialize and rematerialize in the hand of it's warlock when summoned. It is fundamentally a magical weapon bound to the warlock, because it is part of a magical contract or "pact" between a magical entity and that warlock.
Not in 2024 they cannot be, but also Four Elements is not Kensei. Just because an Arcane Trickster or an Eldritch Knight can be counterspelled doesn't mean an Assassin or a Battlemaster is a magical spellcasting being.
Yes and my argument which I clearly have to spell out for you is because one subclass has a power doesn't make it an inherent aspect of the class Just because Arcane Trickster can cast spells, and Eldritch Knight can cast spells doesn't mean Fighters or Rogues by their nature cast spells. Hence the fact that 2014 Four elements monk casts spells has nothing to do with whether Kensei or general monk abilities should act like spells..
Sorry but what is your point? You cherry picked one argument that was slightly poorly phrased to be too general and disproved it with an example that is irrelevant to the topic of the argument.
Are we or are we not arguing that Hexblade Warlock is equivalent to Kensei Monk?
If we are, then Four Elements Monk has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I and others have presented dozens of arguments that they are different none of which you have "disproved" - could you please write your rebuttal to those? If we aren't then could you please clarify what you are arguing?
If you bind a non magical weapon to you I guess it is not magical. but the one you create out of nothing, i'm pretty sure is. It disappears into nothingness if its more than 5 feet away from you for a short time. non magical things tend not to do that.
Here to lay it all out for you:
Hexblade Warlock Features:
Kensei Monk Features:
Please explain how these are at all equivalent.