I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
You’re right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
I think sometimes you need to divorce yourself from the lore WOTC provides you and remember that the class is a mechanical chassis. If the lore, doesn't make sense but the mechanics do make sense, take the mechanical tool they have provided you, and skin it appropriately to fit your character concept.
‘yea you can do it but there are many rough edges. Overall it ends up creating a different vibe.
Being defeated by counterspell, anti magic fields, lacking stats in dexterity and wisdom for acrobatics, grapples, resisting mental attacks.
not having unarmed attacks in addition to your weapon.
Then there is a bunch of weapon feats which don’t match the chr stat.
Now missing an ability like deflect attacks.
‘being dependent on medium armor
The hex blade isn’t going to seem like a martial artist with a magic weapon in totality, it’s going to feel like a magic weapon guy. That might fit someone’s fantasy, but it’s not really the same fantasy as monk who has mastered a weapon, and become one with it.
I really don't have a problem with it being affected by anti-magic. It is all aspects of the weave. Unlike ki, which is entirely internal to a monk, if the focus is outside of the monk (as a weapon is), I reason that focus-energy should be more vulnerable to being disrupted.
But I'm not going to try to convince you, just try to clarify why ^I^ don't find your arguments convincing. There's enough problems with the game producers telling us what is badwrongfun for us to add anything more to that heap.
im pointing out that what people are looking for from kensei isn’t supplied by a hex blade warlock. I’m not saying the class is bad, or cannot be used to represent some sword fantasies, merely that it isn’t what many people are looking for when they pick kensei.
its fine that it satisfies you, but we are mostly talking about what subclasses monk players are looking for, not so much whether hex blade is cool. ‘and the hex blade, mechanically, and flavor wise offers a fairly different experience.
"im pointing out that what people are looking for from kensei isn’t supplied by a hex blade warlock."
You mean what _some_ people are looking for.
And I've not denied that. I was up front about it from my very first post.
Based on this thread it would appear that "some" = "everyone other than you".
If you are happy with a "sword saint" that is SAD on Charisma, great good for you. But that isn't what a Kensei Monk is, it is a completely different character. This is the flavour text for what a Kensei monk is:
Monks of the Way of the Kensei train relentlessly with their weapons, to the point where the weapon becomes an extension of the body. Founded on a mastery of sword fighting, the tradition has expanded to include many different weapons.
A kensei sees a weapon in much the same way a calligrapher or painter regards a pen or brush. Whatever the weapon, the kensei views it as a tool used to express the beauty and precision of the martial arts. That such mastery makes a kensei a peerless warrior is but a side effect of intense devotion, practice, and study.
Note that:
Kensei use multiple weapons, Hexblade uses only one.
Kensei using their physical abilities to fight, Hexblade uses charisma & armour.
Kensei is non-magical, Hexblade casts spells, summons specters, and magically teleports around the battlefield.
The only thing they have in common is they both use swords. A Battlemaster Fighter is more similar to a Kensei than a Hexblade is.
Based on this thread it would appear that "some" = "everyone other than you".
If you are happy with a "sword saint" that is SAD on Charisma, great good for you. But that isn't what a Kensei Monk is, it is a completely different character. This is the flavour text for what a Kensei monk is:
Monks of the Way of the Kensei train relentlessly with their weapons, to the point where the weapon becomes an extension of the body. Founded on a mastery of sword fighting, the tradition has expanded to include many different weapons.
A kensei sees a weapon in much the same way a calligrapher or painter regards a pen or brush. Whatever the weapon, the kensei views it as a tool used to express the beauty and precision of the martial arts. That such mastery makes a kensei a peerless warrior is but a side effect of intense devotion, practice, and study.
Note that:
Kensei use multiple weapons, Hexblade uses only one.
Kensei using their physical abilities to fight, Hexblade uses charisma & armour.
Kensei is non-magical, Hexblade casts spells, summons specters, and magically teleports around the battlefield.
The only thing they have in common is they both use swords. A Battlemaster Fighter is more similar to a Kensei than a Hexblade is.
Excellent summation of what many of us think of when we want to play a Kensei
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
You’re right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
I think sometimes you need to divorce yourself from the lore WOTC provides you and remember that the class is a mechanical chassis. If the lore, doesn't make sense but the mechanics do make sense, take the mechanical tool they have provided you, and skin it appropriately to fit your character concept.
‘yea you can do it but there are many rough edges. Overall it ends up creating a different vibe.
Being defeated by counterspell, anti magic fields, lacking stats in dexterity and wisdom for acrobatics, grapples, resisting mental attacks.
not having unarmed attacks in addition to your weapon.
Then there is a bunch of weapon feats which don’t match the chr stat.
Now missing an ability like deflect attacks.
‘being dependent on medium armor
The hex blade isn’t going to seem like a martial artist with a magic weapon in totality, it’s going to feel like a magic weapon guy. That might fit someone’s fantasy, but it’s not really the same fantasy as monk who has mastered a weapon, and become one with it.
I really don't have a problem with it being affected by anti-magic. It is all aspects of the weave. Unlike ki, which is entirely internal to a monk, if the focus is outside of the monk (as a weapon is), I reason that focus-energy should be more vulnerable to being disrupted.
But I'm not going to try to convince you, just try to clarify why ^I^ don't find your arguments convincing. There's enough problems with the game producers telling us what is badwrongfun for us to add anything more to that heap.
im pointing out that what people are looking for from kensei isn’t supplied by a hex blade warlock. I’m not saying the class is bad, or cannot be used to represent some sword fantasies, merely that it isn’t what many people are looking for when they pick kensei.
its fine that it satisfies you, but we are mostly talking about what subclasses monk players are looking for, not so much whether hex blade is cool. ‘and the hex blade, mechanically, and flavor wise offers a fairly different experience.
"im pointing out that what people are looking for from kensei isn’t supplied by a hex blade warlock."
You mean what _some_ people are looking for.
And I've not denied that. I was up front about it from my very first post.
And that's why third-party content exists.
if what you are looking for is not monk, than why post it in a discussion about monk subclasses? Hexblade and warlock represent a mage who uses a magical weapon. not just flavorwise, but mechanically.
It is the same as being like, if i want to play a monk healer, just play cleric. Cleric is nothing like the way of the mercy monk, hexblade is nothing like a kensei monk.
Hexblade would fit some hong kong cinema fantasy charachters, but monk isnt supposed to represent everything you see in a hong kong cinema. Some of those charachters a better represented as sorcerers, fighters, warlocks, etc.
i think you felt like the point of kensei monk is a magic weapon user with cultural flavor, which is not the point, or playstyle at all.
I totally get that my opinion is in the minority, but I think Hexblade is entirely sufficient for Kensei.
The trope is becoming a master of a specific weapon which, itself, is credited with being exceptional and often supernatural in some way.
You’re right, I think you are in the minority, lol. I get what you are saying as you can have a Hexblade as a weapon master. But for me, the mastery comes from the patron and not through self discipline, focus, and the power within, that I think of when I think of Kensei.
I think sometimes you need to divorce yourself from the lore WOTC provides you and remember that the class is a mechanical chassis. If the lore, doesn't make sense but the mechanics do make sense, take the mechanical tool they have provided you, and skin it appropriately to fit your character concept.
‘yea you can do it but there are many rough edges. Overall it ends up creating a different vibe.
Being defeated by counterspell, anti magic fields, lacking stats in dexterity and wisdom for acrobatics, grapples, resisting mental attacks.
not having unarmed attacks in addition to your weapon.
Then there is a bunch of weapon feats which don’t match the chr stat.
Now missing an ability like deflect attacks.
‘being dependent on medium armor
The hex blade isn’t going to seem like a martial artist with a magic weapon in totality, it’s going to feel like a magic weapon guy. That might fit someone’s fantasy, but it’s not really the same fantasy as monk who has mastered a weapon, and become one with it.
I really don't have a problem with it being affected by anti-magic. It is all aspects of the weave. Unlike ki, which is entirely internal to a monk, if the focus is outside of the monk (as a weapon is), I reason that focus-energy should be more vulnerable to being disrupted.
But I'm not going to try to convince you, just try to clarify why ^I^ don't find your arguments convincing. There's enough problems with the game producers telling us what is badwrongfun for us to add anything more to that heap.
im pointing out that what people are looking for from kensei isn’t supplied by a hex blade warlock. I’m not saying the class is bad, or cannot be used to represent some sword fantasies, merely that it isn’t what many people are looking for when they pick kensei.
its fine that it satisfies you, but we are mostly talking about what subclasses monk players are looking for, not so much whether hex blade is cool. ‘and the hex blade, mechanically, and flavor wise offers a fairly different experience.
"im pointing out that what people are looking for from kensei isn’t supplied by a hex blade warlock."
You mean what _some_ people are looking for.
And I've not denied that. I was up front about it from my very first post.
And that's why third-party content exists.
if what you are looking for is not monk, than why post it in a discussion about monk subclasses? Hexblade and warlock represent a mage who uses a magical weapon. not just flavorwise, but mechanically.
It is the same as being like, if i want to play a monk healer, just play cleric. Cleric is nothing like the way of the mercy monk, hexblade is nothing like a kensei monk.
Hexblade would fit some hong kong cinema fantasy charachters, but monk isnt supposed to represent everything you see in a hong kong cinema. Some of those charachters a better represented as sorcerers, fighters, warlocks, etc.
i think you felt like the point of kensei monk is a magic weapon user with cultural flavor, which is not the point, or playstyle at all.
What I want is for the core game to focus on the most popular classes and subclasses.
" Hexblade represents a mage who uses a magical weapon. not just flavorwise, but mechanically." It really doesn't. If it were a magical weapon, then someone who wasn't a hexblade or warlock could access its magical powers. It is just a sharp lump of steel to anyone who isn't a hexblade. It doesn't even detect as magic.
And, yes, many of a Hexblade's powers can be counterspelled, but so can a Monk of the Four Elements',
None of this is to say that you are wrong for playing the game as you do. Do whatever makes the game fun for you. Just don't pretend that yours is THE right interpretation.
It is just a sharp lump of steel to anyone who isn't a hexblade.
It is magical because it can dematerialize and rematerialize in the hand of it's warlock when summoned. It is fundamentally a magical weapon bound to the warlock, because it is part of a magical contract or "pact" between a magical entity and that warlock.
so can a Monk of the Four Elements
Not in 2024 they cannot be, but also Four Elements is not Kensei. Just because an Arcane Trickster or an Eldritch Knight can be counterspelled doesn't mean an Assassin or a Battlemaster is a magical spellcasting being.
"It is magical because it can dematerialize and rematerialize in the hand of it's warlock when summoned" First off, only a Pact of the Blade, not a Hexblade who isn't a Pact of the Blade Warlock can do this. Second, the power isn't part of the blade itself, which is why a Warlock can replace one blade with another.
" it is part of a magical contract or "pact" between a magical entity and that warlock." That doesn't make the blade itself magical, nor is the entity the Warlock has a pact with ever restricted to being magical. Great Old Ones, for example, aren't part of the weave and don't get their power from it.
That doesn't make it magical.
"Not in 2024 they cannot be, but also Four Elements is not Kensei. Just because an Arcane Trickster or an Eldritch Knight can be counterspelled doesn't mean an Assassin or a Battlemaster is a magical spellcasting being."
The argument was made that, since a Hexblade's powers can be dispelled, that means that those powers are something other than what a monk does. I disproved that argument by pointing out that monk powers, such as those of the Path of the Four Elements, can be dispelled.
"Not in 2024 they cannot be, but also Four Elements is not Kensei. Just because an Arcane Trickster or an Eldritch Knight can be counterspelled doesn't mean an Assassin or a Battlemaster is a magical spellcasting being."
The argument was made that, since a Hexblade's powers can be dispelled, that means that those powers are something other than what a monk does. I disproved that argument by pointing out that monk powers, such as those of the Path of the Four Elements, can be dispelled.
Yes and my argument which I clearly have to spell out for you is because one subclass has a power doesn't make it an inherent aspect of the class Just because Arcane Trickster can cast spells, and Eldritch Knight can cast spells doesn't mean Fighters or Rogues by their nature cast spells. Hence the fact that 2014 Four elements monk casts spells has nothing to do with whether Kensei or general monk abilities should act like spells..
"Not in 2024 they cannot be, but also Four Elements is not Kensei. Just because an Arcane Trickster or an Eldritch Knight can be counterspelled doesn't mean an Assassin or a Battlemaster is a magical spellcasting being."
The argument was made that, since a Hexblade's powers can be dispelled, that means that those powers are something other than what a monk does. I disproved that argument by pointing out that monk powers, such as those of the Path of the Four Elements, can be dispelled.
Yes and my argument which I clearly have to spell out for you is because one subclass has a power doesn't make it an inherent aspect of the class Just because Arcane Trickster can cast spells, and Eldritch Knight can cast spells doesn't mean Fighters or Rogues by their nature cast spells. Hence the fact that 2014 Four elements monk casts spells has nothing to do with whether Kensei or general monk abilities should act like spells..
I didn't claim that all monk powers are vulnerable to anti-magic. I only pointed out that some monk powers are. And pointing out that some of them are is sufficient to disprove the claim "hexblade powers are fundamentally different from monk powers because they are vulnerable to dispel magic"
"Not in 2024 they cannot be, but also Four Elements is not Kensei. Just because an Arcane Trickster or an Eldritch Knight can be counterspelled doesn't mean an Assassin or a Battlemaster is a magical spellcasting being."
The argument was made that, since a Hexblade's powers can be dispelled, that means that those powers are something other than what a monk does. I disproved that argument by pointing out that monk powers, such as those of the Path of the Four Elements, can be dispelled.
Yes and my argument which I clearly have to spell out for you is because one subclass has a power doesn't make it an inherent aspect of the class Just because Arcane Trickster can cast spells, and Eldritch Knight can cast spells doesn't mean Fighters or Rogues by their nature cast spells. Hence the fact that 2014 Four elements monk casts spells has nothing to do with whether Kensei or general monk abilities should act like spells..
I didn't claim that all monk powers are vulnerable to anti-magic. I only pointed out that some monk powers are. And pointing out that some of them are is sufficient to disprove the claim "hexblade powers are fundamentally different from monk powers because they are vulnerable to dispel magic"
Sorry but what is your point? You cherry picked one argument that was slightly poorly phrased to be too general and disproved it with an example that is irrelevant to the topic of the argument.
Are we or are we not arguing that Hexblade Warlock is equivalent to Kensei Monk?
If we are, then Four Elements Monk has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I and others have presented dozens of arguments that they are different none of which you have "disproved" - could you please write your rebuttal to those? If we aren't then could you please clarify what you are arguing?
"Not in 2024 they cannot be, but also Four Elements is not Kensei. Just because an Arcane Trickster or an Eldritch Knight can be counterspelled doesn't mean an Assassin or a Battlemaster is a magical spellcasting being."
The argument was made that, since a Hexblade's powers can be dispelled, that means that those powers are something other than what a monk does. I disproved that argument by pointing out that monk powers, such as those of the Path of the Four Elements, can be dispelled.
Yes and my argument which I clearly have to spell out for you is because one subclass has a power doesn't make it an inherent aspect of the class Just because Arcane Trickster can cast spells, and Eldritch Knight can cast spells doesn't mean Fighters or Rogues by their nature cast spells. Hence the fact that 2014 Four elements monk casts spells has nothing to do with whether Kensei or general monk abilities should act like spells..
I didn't claim that all monk powers are vulnerable to anti-magic. I only pointed out that some monk powers are. And pointing out that some of them are is sufficient to disprove the claim "hexblade powers are fundamentally different from monk powers because they are vulnerable to dispel magic"
Sorry but what is your point? You cherry picked one argument that was slightly poorly phrased to be too general and disproved it with an example that is irrelevant to the topic of the argument.
Are we or are we not arguing that Hexblade Warlock is equivalent to Kensei Monk?
If we are, then Four Elements Monk has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I and others have presented dozens of arguments that they are different none of which you have "disproved" - could you please write your rebuttal to those? If we aren't then could you please clarify what you are arguing?
I addressed several arguments.
1.) the issue about countermagic
2.) the false claim that a haxblade weapon is, itself, magical
"Not in 2024 they cannot be, but also Four Elements is not Kensei. Just because an Arcane Trickster or an Eldritch Knight can be counterspelled doesn't mean an Assassin or a Battlemaster is a magical spellcasting being."
The argument was made that, since a Hexblade's powers can be dispelled, that means that those powers are something other than what a monk does. I disproved that argument by pointing out that monk powers, such as those of the Path of the Four Elements, can be dispelled.
Yes and my argument which I clearly have to spell out for you is because one subclass has a power doesn't make it an inherent aspect of the class Just because Arcane Trickster can cast spells, and Eldritch Knight can cast spells doesn't mean Fighters or Rogues by their nature cast spells. Hence the fact that 2014 Four elements monk casts spells has nothing to do with whether Kensei or general monk abilities should act like spells..
I didn't claim that all monk powers are vulnerable to anti-magic. I only pointed out that some monk powers are. And pointing out that some of them are is sufficient to disprove the claim "hexblade powers are fundamentally different from monk powers because they are vulnerable to dispel magic"
Sorry but what is your point? You cherry picked one argument that was slightly poorly phrased to be too general and disproved it with an example that is irrelevant to the topic of the argument.
Are we or are we not arguing that Hexblade Warlock is equivalent to Kensei Monk?
If we are, then Four Elements Monk has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I and others have presented dozens of arguments that they are different none of which you have "disproved" - could you please write your rebuttal to those? If we aren't then could you please clarify what you are arguing?
I addressed several arguments.
1.) the issue about countermagic
2.) the false claim that a haxblade weapon is, itself, magical
If you bind a non magical weapon to you I guess it is not magical. but the one you create out of nothing, i'm pretty sure is. It disappears into nothingness if its more than 5 feet away from you for a short time. non magical things tend not to do that.
2.) the false claim that a haxblade weapon is, itself, magical
What do either of these things have to do with the argument though? Again are we or are we not arguing about whether Hexblade warlock is equivalent to Kensei monk?
A Kensei monk can use a magical weapon and they don't stop being a Kensei monk. A Hexblade warlock can swing a non-magical sword but that doesn't make them stop being a Hexblade warlock.
Also are you arguing that flavour text does or doesn't matter? I thought you were arguing flavour text doesn't matter. In which case, why do you think the Hex weapon is the defining feature of Hexblade warlock? It is only one half of one feature of the subclass, and isn't particularly unique - any warlock can use Pact of the Tome to pick up Shillelagh to use CHA for their weapon attacks (Druids, and Clerics can get it as well). There is nothing in the subclass that makes the Hex weapon at all special beyond that one half-feature.
In contrast Hexblade's Curse is a unique ability with 3/6 subclass features dedicated to it. It is HBC that is really the defining feature of the Hexblade subclass.
Even if you do consider the flavour text, this is the flavour text for Hexblade Warlock (emphasis added by me):
You have made your pact with a mysterious entity from the Shadowfell — a force that manifests in sentient magic weapons carved from the stuff of shadow. The mighty sword Blackrazor is the most notable of these weapons, which have been spread across the multiverse over the ages. The shadowy force behind these weapons can offer power to warlocks who form pacts with it. Many hexblade warlocks create weapons that emulate those formed in the Shadowfell. Others forgo such arms, content to weave the dark magic of that plane into their spellcasting.
Flavour-wise, Hexblade doesn't really have much to do with using weapons. The flavour text out right says there are Hexblades that don't use weapons at all and instead are pure spellcasters. There is more "blade" in the name of the subclass than any thing else associated with it.
And for the record , I’m not the one who brought up the poor claims that the Hexblade weapon was magical or that the Hexblade characters powers came from a magical weapon.
You might ask the person who made those arguments how they are relevant.
All I did was point out the flaws in those arguments.
My claim was that the Hexblade captures the concept of the Kensei well - which it does.
How does it though? I certainly don't see it. I'm simply trying to understand what your argument is. You were arguing that flavour doesn't matter only mechanics does so I posted about the mechanics. Now you are arguing the mechanics don't matter the "concept" does? Moving the goal posts much?
But even at the concept level what in specific is your argument - rather than just "because I said so" - because as I see it:
The concept of the Kensei is a martial artist that can use weapons better than anyone else and in ways that nobody else can.
The concept of the Hexblade is a spellcaster that curses their enemies and can choose to use a weapon.
What part of Hexblade supports the concept of "martial artist"? What part of Hexblade supports the concept of "can use weapons better than anyone else"?
Unless Hexblade takes the Pact of the Blade they are awful at using weapons. So is it Hexblade that makes a warlock good at using weapons or it is Pact of the Blade? I remind you, the flavour text of Hexblade even says they don't need to use a weapon at all. Indeed, I've played with multiple Hexblades that hardly ever used a weapon.
The "Hex weapon" isn't even special, it's just a mundane ordinary weapon. And Hexblades are worse at using it than a Fighter or a Rogue or a Barbarian or a Paladin or a Ranger. Nothing about Hexblade makes them particularly good at using weapons in the general context of D&D. Sure they are the best warlock at using weapons but that's not saying much since warlock is very much a subpar / mediocre weapon user.
I think one could argue there is a similarity between the two if you view it as "A character who has a special relationship with a weapon and is good at using it", like, I can see certain character concepts which would fit both the hexblade and the kensei, depending on which aspects of the archetypes you wanna lean into.
That said, when I think Kensei, Im imagining the heroes of kong fu movies, wielding their weapons with superhuman skill and grace, Im imagining someone who truly uses their weapon as a natural extension of themselves. Its all about fighting dressed in a fancy flowing shirt or in a cool robe, doing acrobatics while effortlessly out fencing your opponent.
Needless say, a lot of that fantasy fits very well with the monk, since so much of the base monk class is also based on kong fu movies and I dont think it fits super well with the warlock.
I think one could argue there is a similarity between the two if you view it as "A character who has a special relationship with a weapon and is good at using it", like, I can see certain character concepts which would fit both the hexblade and the kensei, depending on which aspects of the archetypes you wanna lean into.
That said, when I think Kensei, Im imagining the heroes of kong fu movies, wielding their weapons with superhuman skill and grace, Im imagining someone who truly uses their weapon as a natural extension of themselves. Its all about fighting dressed in a fancy flowing shirt or in a cool robe, doing acrobatics while effortlessly out fencing your opponent.
Needless say, a lot of that fantasy fits very well with the monk, since so much of the base monk class is also based on kong fu movies and I dont think it fits super well with the warlock.
As I’ve said before, I have no interest in saying that my take on it is the only correct one. I just don’t think other people should argue that their take on it is the only correct one either.
I visualize the hexblade as like a pendekar, which is most definitely a martial artist. I also don’t think that a monk has to be Far East-inspired. They can be, sure, but they don’t have to be. They could be something completely different.
My claim was that the Hexblade captures the concept of the Kensei well - which it does.
How does it though? I certainly don't see it. I'm simply trying to understand what your argument is. You were arguing that flavour doesn't matter only mechanics does so I posted about the mechanics. Now you are arguing the mechanics don't matter the "concept" does? Moving the goal posts much?
But even at the concept level what in specific is your argument - rather than just "because I said so" - because as I see it:
The concept of the Kensei is a martial artist that can use weapons better than anyone else and in ways that nobody else can.
The concept of the Hexblade is a spellcaster that curses their enemies and can choose to use a weapon.
What part of Hexblade supports the concept of "martial artist"? What part of Hexblade supports the concept of "can use weapons better than anyone else"?
Unless Hexblade takes the Pact of the Blade they are awful at using weapons. So is it Hexblade that makes a warlock good at using weapons or it is Pact of the Blade? I remind you, the flavour text of Hexblade even says they don't need to use a weapon at all. Indeed, I've played with multiple Hexblades that hardly ever used a weapon.
The "Hex weapon" isn't even special, it's just a mundane ordinary weapon. And Hexblades are worse at using it than a Fighter or a Rogue or a Barbarian or a Paladin or a Ranger. Nothing about Hexblade makes them particularly good at using weapons in the general context of D&D. Sure they are the best warlock at using weapons but that's not saying much since warlock is very much a subpar / mediocre weapon user.
I never said that flavor doesn’t matter.
This is only your most recent attempt at misrepresenting what I’ve argued so that you have a straw man. You’ve done it multiple times before.
I was really wanting a thoughtful dialogue, but your repeated attempts to build straw men tells me that isn’t going to happen. So, I’m dropping out of this discussion with you.
If others are wanting to continue, I’m happy to.
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"im pointing out that what people are looking for from kensei isn’t supplied by a hex blade warlock."
You mean what _some_ people are looking for.
And I've not denied that. I was up front about it from my very first post.
And that's why third-party content exists.
Based on this thread it would appear that "some" = "everyone other than you".
If you are happy with a "sword saint" that is SAD on Charisma, great good for you. But that isn't what a Kensei Monk is, it is a completely different character. This is the flavour text for what a Kensei monk is:
Note that:
Kensei use multiple weapons, Hexblade uses only one.
Kensei using their physical abilities to fight, Hexblade uses charisma & armour.
Kensei is non-magical, Hexblade casts spells, summons specters, and magically teleports around the battlefield.
The only thing they have in common is they both use swords. A Battlemaster Fighter is more similar to a Kensei than a Hexblade is.
Excellent summation of what many of us think of when we want to play a Kensei
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
if what you are looking for is not monk, than why post it in a discussion about monk subclasses? Hexblade and warlock represent a mage who uses a magical weapon. not just flavorwise, but mechanically.
It is the same as being like, if i want to play a monk healer, just play cleric. Cleric is nothing like the way of the mercy monk, hexblade is nothing like a kensei monk.
Hexblade would fit some hong kong cinema fantasy charachters, but monk isnt supposed to represent everything you see in a hong kong cinema. Some of those charachters a better represented as sorcerers, fighters, warlocks, etc.
i think you felt like the point of kensei monk is a magic weapon user with cultural flavor, which is not the point, or playstyle at all.
What I want is for the core game to focus on the most popular classes and subclasses.
" Hexblade represents a mage who uses a magical weapon. not just flavorwise, but mechanically." It really doesn't. If it were a magical weapon, then someone who wasn't a hexblade or warlock could access its magical powers. It is just a sharp lump of steel to anyone who isn't a hexblade. It doesn't even detect as magic.
And, yes, many of a Hexblade's powers can be counterspelled, but so can a Monk of the Four Elements',
None of this is to say that you are wrong for playing the game as you do. Do whatever makes the game fun for you. Just don't pretend that yours is THE right interpretation.
It is magical because it can dematerialize and rematerialize in the hand of it's warlock when summoned. It is fundamentally a magical weapon bound to the warlock, because it is part of a magical contract or "pact" between a magical entity and that warlock.
Not in 2024 they cannot be, but also Four Elements is not Kensei. Just because an Arcane Trickster or an Eldritch Knight can be counterspelled doesn't mean an Assassin or a Battlemaster is a magical spellcasting being.
Yes and my argument which I clearly have to spell out for you is because one subclass has a power doesn't make it an inherent aspect of the class Just because Arcane Trickster can cast spells, and Eldritch Knight can cast spells doesn't mean Fighters or Rogues by their nature cast spells. Hence the fact that 2014 Four elements monk casts spells has nothing to do with whether Kensei or general monk abilities should act like spells..
I didn't claim that all monk powers are vulnerable to anti-magic. I only pointed out that some monk powers are. And pointing out that some of them are is sufficient to disprove the claim "hexblade powers are fundamentally different from monk powers because they are vulnerable to dispel magic"
Sorry but what is your point? You cherry picked one argument that was slightly poorly phrased to be too general and disproved it with an example that is irrelevant to the topic of the argument.
Are we or are we not arguing that Hexblade Warlock is equivalent to Kensei Monk?
If we are, then Four Elements Monk has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I and others have presented dozens of arguments that they are different none of which you have "disproved" - could you please write your rebuttal to those? If we aren't then could you please clarify what you are arguing?
I addressed several arguments.
1.) the issue about countermagic
2.) the false claim that a haxblade weapon is, itself, magical
If you bind a non magical weapon to you I guess it is not magical. but the one you create out of nothing, i'm pretty sure is. It disappears into nothingness if its more than 5 feet away from you for a short time. non magical things tend not to do that.
Here to lay it all out for you:
Hexblade Warlock Features:
Kensei Monk Features:
Please explain how these are at all equivalent.
What do either of these things have to do with the argument though? Again are we or are we not arguing about whether Hexblade warlock is equivalent to Kensei monk?
A Kensei monk can use a magical weapon and they don't stop being a Kensei monk. A Hexblade warlock can swing a non-magical sword but that doesn't make them stop being a Hexblade warlock.
Also are you arguing that flavour text does or doesn't matter? I thought you were arguing flavour text doesn't matter. In which case, why do you think the Hex weapon is the defining feature of Hexblade warlock? It is only one half of one feature of the subclass, and isn't particularly unique - any warlock can use Pact of the Tome to pick up Shillelagh to use CHA for their weapon attacks (Druids, and Clerics can get it as well). There is nothing in the subclass that makes the Hex weapon at all special beyond that one half-feature.
In contrast Hexblade's Curse is a unique ability with 3/6 subclass features dedicated to it. It is HBC that is really the defining feature of the Hexblade subclass.
Even if you do consider the flavour text, this is the flavour text for Hexblade Warlock (emphasis added by me):
Flavour-wise, Hexblade doesn't really have much to do with using weapons. The flavour text out right says there are Hexblades that don't use weapons at all and instead are pure spellcasters. There is more "blade" in the name of the subclass than any thing else associated with it.
What do you mean by “equivalent”? Identical mechanics? Who claimed they were identical mechanics?
My claim was that the Hexblade captures the concept of the Kensei well - which it does.
You wouldn’t be trying to build a straw man, would you?
And for the record , I’m not the one who brought up the poor claims that the Hexblade weapon was magical or that the Hexblade characters powers came from a magical weapon.
You might ask the person who made those arguments how they are relevant.
All I did was point out the flaws in those arguments.
How does it though? I certainly don't see it. I'm simply trying to understand what your argument is. You were arguing that flavour doesn't matter only mechanics does so I posted about the mechanics. Now you are arguing the mechanics don't matter the "concept" does? Moving the goal posts much?
But even at the concept level what in specific is your argument - rather than just "because I said so" - because as I see it:
The concept of the Kensei is a martial artist that can use weapons better than anyone else and in ways that nobody else can.
The concept of the Hexblade is a spellcaster that curses their enemies and can choose to use a weapon.
What part of Hexblade supports the concept of "martial artist"? What part of Hexblade supports the concept of "can use weapons better than anyone else"?
Unless Hexblade takes the Pact of the Blade they are awful at using weapons. So is it Hexblade that makes a warlock good at using weapons or it is Pact of the Blade? I remind you, the flavour text of Hexblade even says they don't need to use a weapon at all. Indeed, I've played with multiple Hexblades that hardly ever used a weapon.
The "Hex weapon" isn't even special, it's just a mundane ordinary weapon. And Hexblades are worse at using it than a Fighter or a Rogue or a Barbarian or a Paladin or a Ranger. Nothing about Hexblade makes them particularly good at using weapons in the general context of D&D. Sure they are the best warlock at using weapons but that's not saying much since warlock is very much a subpar / mediocre weapon user.
I think one could argue there is a similarity between the two if you view it as "A character who has a special relationship with a weapon and is good at using it", like, I can see certain character concepts which would fit both the hexblade and the kensei, depending on which aspects of the archetypes you wanna lean into.
That said, when I think Kensei, Im imagining the heroes of kong fu movies, wielding their weapons with superhuman skill and grace, Im imagining someone who truly uses their weapon as a natural extension of themselves. Its all about fighting dressed in a fancy flowing shirt or in a cool robe, doing acrobatics while effortlessly out fencing your opponent.
Needless say, a lot of that fantasy fits very well with the monk, since so much of the base monk class is also based on kong fu movies and I dont think it fits super well with the warlock.
As I’ve said before, I have no interest in saying that my take on it is the only correct one. I just don’t think other people should argue that their take on it is the only correct one either.
I visualize the hexblade as like a pendekar, which is most definitely a martial artist. I also don’t think that a monk has to be Far East-inspired. They can be, sure, but they don’t have to be. They could be something completely different.
I never said that flavor doesn’t matter.
This is only your most recent attempt at misrepresenting what I’ve argued so that you have a straw man. You’ve done it multiple times before.
I was really wanting a thoughtful dialogue, but your repeated attempts to build straw men tells me that isn’t going to happen. So, I’m dropping out of this discussion with you.
If others are wanting to continue, I’m happy to.