Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
Sign in- Marketplace
Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
Sign in
It doesn't fix the Hexblade and the Hexblade needs more melee survivability, preferably before their initiative comes up for the first time. It fixes the problem at the surface while providing nothing that distinguishes the Hexblade from other Warlocks. Let's just make Healing Light an Invocation and call that making the Celestial Warlock a better healer than other Warlocks. Your Pact of the Armor Invocation makes the Hexblade a worse option by adding nothing that other Warlocks can't also do. The only reason to push Pact of Armor is to provide Medium Armor and Shield Proficiency to non-Hexblades and non-Warlocks already considering a Warlock dip. You are not interested in fixing Hexblade, you are further cannibalizing their abilities for other subclasses and classes.
Additionally. the long list of invocations that a Hexblade needs to take in order to function as a Hexblade is designed to function and fully utilize their subclass features means that they will be carbon copies until level 5 or so.
And yet, the Hexblade subclass leans into that meh pick by giving you an AC buff only while not wearing armor or a shield. It's not that I want to take Armor of Shadows, it's that if I want to use that class feature, I have to (or take Magic Initiate/multiclass into an Unarmored Defense class). For a pure Warlock perspective, fully using the subclass as designed, I have to use Armor of Shadows. I have to ignore the Light Armor proficiency of the class.
Because you can't use Accursed Shield with any kind of armor and it doesn't fix Hexblade. What is the point of Hexblade if I can just take Pact of Blade and Pact of Armor and I have my melee Warlock? The UA Hexblade does some neat things, but to fully use the subclasses, you have to utilize a limited resource and forgo armor. Accursed Shield is kind of like what if a Barbarian's Rage or Bladesinger's Bladesong ended when you killed an enemy.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
SmiteMakesRight
Hexblade’s curse is supposed to be what makes a Hexblade be different to other warlocks. Honestly 5e Hexblade was just a patch for the poorly designed 5e Pact of the Blade. Now that 5.5 Pact of the Blade is fixed there isn’t much need for a Hexblade. The UA redesigns feel short which is why it isn’t in the upcoming books. Also I’m not cannibalizing hexblades for other subclasses. I’ve repeatedly stated that if hexblades need more armor and a shield It must be an option for all warlocks. Otherwise you are just making the Hexblade objectively more powerful than all other warlocks. There are other ways to design Hexblade to improve their AC that can be subclass specific. This invocation tax version only exists as long as no one can think of a satisfying way to improve their AC as part of the subclass that doesn’t make them the must pick of all warlocks.
Accursed Shield was bad, but I’m sure plenty of people told them that in the survey. Also remember that all barbarians who use unarmored defense have to ignore the armor training provided by the class. The Beast barbarian has to avoid the weapon training provided by the class. The problem is Accursed Shield is bad, not that it makes you choose something else. You could play a hexblade and avoid melee combat. Honestly you don’t have to take pact of the blade at all. They need to start from the ground up to redesign the Hexblade for 5.5e. Otherwise it is not needed. We don’t need an objectively better than the others warlock.
This. The only good reason to release a new hexblade is to errata the old one out even more.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Now you are started to understand the Hexblade's situation. The Hexblade provided the path for melee Warlocks. With Pact of the Blade taking part of Hexblade's Hex Warrior mechanics, and the revised Hexblade scattering the benefits of Hexblade's Curse from level 3 to across levels 3 (a lesser on death regain HP), 14 (Accursed Critical), and proficiency bonus to damage was just deleted. You can use the feature a few more times per day (Charisma per day versus once per day), but the buff from Accursed Shield won't last through combat unless you are fighting a single enemy or target the enemy you expect to go down last. Hungering Hex doesn't help you stay in the fight unless you target the enemy you expect to go down first.
Unyielding Will is okay ... once per day. Although it's not clear whether you can fail a saving throw to maintain concentration, choose to succeed, and trigger the emanation. If you are worried about concentration, you are probably in melee.
At level 6, Harrowing Hex doesn't require a melee attack but leans into the martial bent. Inescapable Hex is about staying close to your enemy. Armor of Hexes doesn't require you to be in melee range like Accursed Critical does, but it still requires your limited use curse to be on someone.
The Hexblade 5e was a semi-martial subclass with lasting options for frontline and rear-line defense (armor and shield proficiency). Apart from the spells, the UA Hexblade is still martial coded and is more melee coded than in 5e but only has short term defensive options (tied to an enemy being cursed). It even loses defensive spells like Blur and Blink and encourages you to discard the light armor proficiency from your class.
You've repeatedly been wrong. Hexblade's subclass mechanics pushes them into melee combat more than any other subclass. They need the additional survivability to act in the front line. Other Warlocks can wear Light Armor. Their defensive options were changed from being a standing part of Hex Warrior to being tied to being in melee range of their cursed target. In 5e, when their curse target died, they could skip the healing to move the curse to another target, but the UA Hexblade can never do that. They are like Bladesinger Wizards that lose Bladesong when an enemy dies. Whatever form it takes, the defensive benefit from their subclass needs to last all day and not be tied to one fight, let alone one enemy. If the defensive bonus can be removed (effect dispelled or proficient equipment removed), that's fine.
Hexblades were never the must pick of all warlocks, just the ones that wanted to lean into melee or who were level 1 to 19 Paladins (*whistles innocently*).
But piling on another Invocation cannibalized from the 5e Hexblade mechanics and making it available to all Warlocks just begs the question of what is the point of the Hexblade? What does it do that another Warlock doesn't do better? You could even lean into melee more by having Accursed shield be a standing + [2, Proficiency Bonus, Charisma Modifier] AC against melee attacks when wearing Light Armor and not using a shield. That would protect the Warlock in melee, be no benefit to a back line character, and provide a lasting benefit. You could even just make it Shield Proficiency.
Another alternative is to tie more abilities to melee. Sure, you have Medium Armor and/or Shield Proficiency, but Harrowing Hex gives you a Bonus Action melee weapon attack, Armor of Hexes only triggers only melee damage... If you tie more of the class abilities to melee and melee weapons, is the Hexblade going to be the must pick of all warlocks, or just the ones that want to lean into Pact of the Blade?
The 5.24 redesign moving Subclasses for Warlocks from level 1 to level 3 and cannibalizing Hex Warrior into Pact of the Blade already mostly takes care of the single level dip for Hexblade. Your desire to cannibalize the rest of Hex Warrior into a Pact Invocation (all Pact of Invocations are level 1 Invocations) just gives more classes reason to level 1 or 2 dip Warlock. No other Warlock subclass needs the higher defense that the melee focused one. If they get a boost to their defense, it should be tied to that subclass and not generally available or it devalues the subclass. Why should I be a Hexblade when I can pick up Pact of the Blade and be just as good while healing as a Celestial Warlock?
This is an invalid comparison because Unarmored Defense provides a lasting alternative AC formula. It is even theoretically possible (theoretically) for the Unarmored Defense AC to exceed AC via armor proficiency.
An Accursed Armor that was 10 + Charisma Modifier + Dexterity would be more comparable but that probably be way too good, despite being the exact feature College of Dance Bard and Oath of Noble Genies Paladins get (but those classes don't get the ability to use Charisma for weapon attacks without a Warlock dip.
I don't know what WotC's obsession with armorless defense this edition is though. I think only the Armorer gets more proficient with Armor via a subclass. Everyone else gets an unarmored bonus or an unarmored AC formula. It stands out here because it is a subclass that gained armor proficiency and now WotC is removing the perk and encouraging you to streak in combat. It's weird.
Bladesong is a better comparison, but that has a duration independent of other factors and doesn't conflict with any Wizard features.
We'll see what that looks like when it gets updated. As it is now, they don't have to avoid anything. It's an option, but starting at level 5, the abilities can be used interchangeably with their normal attacks. At levels 3-4, the Beast Barbarian can use the tail option to boost their defenses while using their class provided weapon proficiencies (or weapon and shield proficiencies) if they don't want to use the tail to attack. It is also available as a reach weapon for opportunity attacks. If you want to double claw or nom for the heals, that is always an option.
Unlike Form of the Beast and weapon proficiency, Accursed Shield has no option that works alongside Light Armor proficiency.
Starting at level 5, a Beast Barbarian with a Great Axe can attack once with the Great Axe (perhaps triggering cleave), then attack with a Bite (for the once per turn heal) or claw (for the once per turn extra claw) without losing anything from their class or subclass. The tail transformation is less standout at this point because the other abilities are more accessible. However, it's still good in the same way it was at level 3, it gives you a defensive reaction and a surprise reach attack.
After Form of the Beast, Infectious Fury is the only subclass ability that is tied to their "natural weapons" (these will probably be changed to unarmed strikes in 5.24) and that only requires that you use the Bite, Claw, or Tail for that attack which only represents 4-6 attacks out of the day.
No, Path of the Beast Barbarians don't give up any class features to utilize their subclass features. It is more accurate to say that Path of the Beast can, on a turn-by-turn basis, temporarily replace their class weapon proficiency with subclass natural weapon attacks to gain limited extra abilities while a Hexblade has to permanently replace their class armor proficiency in order to use an extremely temporary Subclass defensive ability that does not provide an improvement at any level.
If you think the Hexblade is objectively better than other Warlocks, you were just building hack and slash Warlocks and now complain that no other subclass competes for stabbing people.
With 2024e content only, you can:
These are options available to all Warlock Subclasses. Also, note that going 4 levels in on Bard or Artificer costs you a Mystic Arcanum, but you wind up with the same number of feats (but potentially 2 Boons) at level 20.
The Hexblade, being a, relatively speaking, frontliner needs a single class defense option.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
This argument is disrespectful to everyone who wants to update their Hexblade PC, not replace them.
If you weren't one of the people who enjoyed dragging on a foe's existence as a Specter or wading into combat with your Pact Blade (in a sense, up to two Pact Blades) is no excuse to tear apart the class they played, enjoyed playing, and tell them their subclass is dead now. Their character cannot be updated. They need to reroll.
Everyone should have the opportunity to update their character from 2024 and still feel like it is their character and plays the same way, or close enough at least.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
The old hexblade was 99.999999999% taken as a 1 level dip for charisma casters. It was always designed just as a patch for the crap pact of the blade since they seem to be opposed to just fixing mistakes. And honestly its bad design to have the one true sub class for the melee warlock since pact of the blade is there for any warlock. Some flex where one is a bit better is fine, like great old one has no real benefit towards it but fiend and archfey to have some synergy with it. But none of them have so much of a boost that it would be a bad idea to play anything else. Sadly while not technically needed a 1 level dip to a martial is still massively beneficial a defense invocation that is not utter trash would open it up more to those who want to play a pure class warlock.
But if a sub class is THE path to making a melee warlock they done screwed up and that no longer being the case is a good thing and not a plight upon the very few non dip hexblade players.
It is cool that the 2024 Warlock allows for more than one Pact, but it's also disappointing that they are available at level 1, propagating this issue forward. I don't like being forced to switch up place styles as you go, but I don't see a good fix ... maybe bumping Pacts to level 2+?
It's bad design to have Bladesinger be the one true sub class for the melee Wizard since Mage Armor, Warcaster, and Ruby of the War Mage are there for any Wizard.
Your argument has not support and is not valid.
Keep in mind that Pact of the Blade can be used for ranged attacks either by using a magic ranged weapon or by using a thrown weapon. The Pact of the Blade series can still be useful for Warlocks without any melee synergy. Are you taking that into account? The Hexblade's abilities require or encourage them to be in or near melee, but Pact of the Blade does not technically. For a thrown Pact Weapon, you will need to attack followed by a Bonus Action resummon, which isn't great.
Actually, that summoning a Pact Weapon as part of an attack would be an interesting Hexblade feature. That could be combined with a flat +2 AC while wearing no armor or light armor and not using a shield (call it an aura of unluck) for Accursed Shield. It wouldn't be crazy. I don't know.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
If you do not see the difference between pact of the blade as a feature and mage armor, war caster and ruby of the warmage being options for the wizard it is not my arguments that has not support and is not valid.
It is indeed your arguments which are flawed. You have class features and options for both that provide for some degree of melee viability without multiclassing and independent of subclass. WotC has published a Wizard subclass that is "THE path to making a melee
warlock" Wizard. You claim that making a melee-focused subclass is screwing up. I guess you think it's fine for the Wizard, but not for the Warlock.How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
The obvious difference in the two scenarios is that they attempted to make being a weapon-user something that was viable as a part of the base Warlock class, rather than just splashing it as a subclass. So yes, basically it is fine for the Wizard but not the Warlock, since the classes were built to present different options.
There is no difference.
It's like any other subclass that focuses on one aspect of the parent class. A Kensei Monk is an example of poorly executed version. You can use your Wildshape forms in combat, but Circle of the Moon is THE Wildshape-in-combat subclass. College of Eloquence and College of Lore are different aspects of being Bardier than other Bards. This is nothing new and part of the design of D&D since the release of 5e.
Some Subclasses bring something completely new and some double down on existing features.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
There's a world of difference between class design and subclass design.
And yet I provided multiple examples of subclasses that, like the Hexblade, focused on strengthening class elements.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
SmiteMakesRight you are just wrong.
Hexblade Warlock has nothing in its mechanics that pushes a player into melee. You could easily play the class as a blaster with better defenses. None of the mechanics require melee attacks. Also because invocations shape your warlock more than subclass the 5e Hexblade was just the objectively better pick. Hexblade offers improved damage for spells and melee weapon attacks (hexblade’s curse), and improved AC.
Most of us are reapeatedly telling you if you want Hexblade in 5.5e you can’t have your always on AC improvements because it makes the class objectively better than other warlocks. Hexblade was never meant to be the melee warlock, it was meant to fix the fact that the melee option for all warlocks was broken. The flaw is that it was just the best warlock.
The UA Hexblades were flawed designs. The first was a Hexer no Blade, and the second was just a nothing burger. You could put medium armor on the Arcane UA warlock, and make it so accursed shield’s limitation only be you can’t have a shield. Hindering Curse should be a weapon attack roll or melee attack roll. I do give that UA version credit for trying to have mechanics that push players into melee combat, but more are needed. Just note this version of hexblade’s curse is objectively worse than 5e version. This UA Hexblade with medium armor would not be objectively better than other 5.5e warlocks. I could live with that, but I bet you are going to argue it needs shield a too.
Back at you, but after writing this, I don't think you've been reading my posts. They get long and it's easier to skim.
You can't stay back at distances enemies can't easily reach and blast while still using all of your class features. This is definitely a melee-coded class.
There are fewer melee-coded features here, particularly since the spells aren't always prepared, but it is still encouraging you to melee.
This was a problem. It boosted damage untied to Pact Weapons for a weapon about a "pact" with a weapon patron. The UA Warlock still has this issue, but it is reduced and some elements are changed in level. No more critting with Eldritch Blast at level 3.
For AC, it had:
The UA version has lost all of those features and received a +2 AC while very close to an enemy (probably a strong one). I am not saying give them all of those back. I am not saying give them one back. I am saying that they need more than Accursed Shield, something constant that protects them while the curse is not up. I am also saying that it would be fine to push their special abilities towards having more melee requirements. Make Hungering Hex only allow a melee weapon attack, etc.
You could give them medium armor and no shield proficiency and drop Accursed Shield. Keep the defensive spells from Xanathar's off the list.
I know my posts can be long and maybe tiring to read, but I want a little better melee defense.
Adding just Shield Proficiency is okay, but limits people who want to use a two-hander. Dual Wielding is less of an option now.
Adding just Medium Armor without Shield Proficiency is fine.
Adding just a flat bonus while not wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield is fine and could even be melee only (but should provide a higher bonus if it is melee only).
Medium Armor is the simplest for design and players (I am getting old and forget my temporary modifiers sometimes), but it's not the only solution. We don't need all 4 defensive options back for Hexblades and we don't even need the same options back.
I already suggested making Harrowing Hex restricted to melee weapon attack rolls. I considered it for Hindering Curse and Accursed Critical, but I feel like Hexblade's Curse needs to be better in order for those abilities to be more restricted. You're probably right about Hindering Curse though. I feel like a Hexblade should be more selfish and impose Disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes before the end of your next turn against the Hexblade's abilities. As it is now, to use it yourself, you need a Bonus Action spell that requires a save spell or your next spellcasting Ally will benefit from it.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
No, it's not and it doesn't need medium armor and shields. It just needs something to protect them in melee and it can't be tied to an enemy that won't last long. A Bladesinger gets an AC bonus that last for a minute and can reasonably be expected to last against multiple enemies in a multi-enemy encounter. Accursed Shield lasts through 1 enemy.
I played Warlocks for a variety of Subclasses. I think I had one, maybe two, pure Hexblades. My last was a Genie. I've had a few Fiends.
I also dipped into Hexblade a lot (2014e only, of course) for Charisma on Weapon Attacks as a Paladin, where Medium Armor and Shield proficiency didn't matter. The Pact of the Blade changes actually undermine 2024e's moving subclasses to 3rd level because what I was getting out of it is still a 1 level dip.
That said, yes, it is disrespectful to celebrate the inability of a player to remake their character in the new edition. We're not talking about rebalancing the defensive options for the subclass; we are talking removing 4 defensive options and replacing it with something that might last a few turns. And Arcane Vigor which is good for sustain if you have an adequate AC.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
If you are reading my post you know most of my complaints are about the 5e Hexblade warlock 5e smite spells weren’t that good. A 5e Hexblade was could Hexblade’s curse and use eldritch blast from 30ft away, while having improved defense from all attacks and not worry about disadvantage if something got into melee range. A couple of spells don’t count as mechanics forcing you into melee. Especially on a class that might only cast 1 spell per combat. The problem with the 5e hexblade is that it was the best melee and ranged warlock option at the same time. Most people arguing to bring warlock to 5.5want it to return to that status. I apologize for including you in that group. If you go back in this thread you will see I have made many suggestions for how to improve the Arcane UA hexblade’s melee defense without giving them medium armor and shield. If you go back far enough you might find me arguing they need both in a 5.5e update, but that might be on another thread before I realized how much better the 5e Hexblade is compared to other 5e warlocks.
We agree that Accursed Shield is bad. We agree that the UA Hexblade is bad and needs better defense. I think we only slightly disagree on methods to fix it. I won’t agree to any method that is designed to give them better survivability that would allow them to keep that survivability as a long ranged blaster. The only reason I say medium armor is okay for the UA warlock is because how bad the Hexblade’s curse is designed. If it is improved I might not be okay with medium armor as a fix.
This is a difference of opinion, but let's move on. Thanks for the apology. There has been a lot in this thread and I didn't review it when it popped back up. It sounds like there was a lot of talking past each other and I apologize for that as well.
I think they need better defenses, but there is great liberty in what form that can take. Shifting their abilities to push them into close range also helps. I just want their close-range survivability to be improved as a Subclass feature rather than a class feature or there is no reason to take the subclass. The subclass should encourage the characters to be in melee and make being in melee a realistic option without multiclassing. Ideally, beyond Pact of the Blade, characters should be functional enough that their Invocations aren't copy and pasted at level 3, but that may be difficult and not a hill I will die on.
Also, I should be explicit that my assessment of the class is based on the assumption that Hex does not allow you to change your Hexblade's Curse target.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Here is a version with medium armor and improved defensive abilities compared to the UA. It is very reliant on being within 10ft and hexblade’s curse is really just an aura that other features use. I brought accursed critical down to 6th because I feel that is more important to Hexblade than inescapable hex. I did improve inescapable hex at 14. I did nothing for hindering curse. I think that is meant for an Ally. Or for when you have extra attack you can hit with an attack to trigger hindering curse then attack again and use a smite spell on hit. Honestly it could be argued it works if you use a smite spell on the first hit that triggers hindering curse. I don’t know if I would use smite spells on a pure warlock.
3rd level Hexblade Spells
3 Arcane Vigor, Hex, Shield, Wrathful Smite
5 Bestow Curse, Conjure Barrage
7 Freedom of Movement Staggering Smite
9 Animate Objects, Steel Wind Strike
3rd Level Hexblade’s Curse
Your patron curses you with power that creates an accursed miasma around you. It is an invisible 10 ft emanation that empowers curses you cast and hinders your foes.
Accursed Shield. You gain +2 bonus to your AC against any attack that originates within your miasma as long as you aren't wielding a shield or wearing heavy armor.
Hungering Hex. When a creature cursed by you that is within your miasma drops to 0 hit points you regain 1d8+ your Charisma Modifier hit points.
3rd Level Hex Warrior
Your patron grants you the training necessary to effectively arm yourself for battle and power over curses that make you more effective in close quarters. You gain proficiency with martial weapons and medium armor training.
Hex Weapon. Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with. If the weapon is heavy you ignore disadvantage caused by not having the required Strength or Dexterity score. When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls. As a bonus action you may send the weapon to a pocket dimension or summon it to your hand from that pocket dimension. A weapon returns from the pocket dimension if you die. These benefits last until you finish a long rest. If you have/gain the Pact of the Blade invocation these benefits extend to your pact weapon whether you bond with or conjure it.
Unyielding Will. When you succeed on a saving throw to maintain Concentration, each creature of your choice in your miasma takes 2d6 Necrotic damage. Once you use this benefit, you can’t do so again until the start of your next turn.
In addition, when you fail a saving throw to maintain Concentration, you can choose to succeed instead, and you gain temp hp equal to 1d10 plus your warlock level. Once you use this feature you can't use it again until you finish a long rest.
6th Level Malign Brutality
Accursed Critical. Any attack roll you make against a target cursed by you that is within your miasma scores a Critical Hit on a 19 or 20 on the d20.
Harrowing Hex. After you cast a level 1+ spell that has a casting time of an action, you can make one attack with a weapon as a bonus action.
Hindering Curse. When you hit a target cursed by you that is within your miasma with an attack roll, the target has disadvantage on its next saving throw before the start of your next turn.
10th Level Armor of Hexes
If an enemy that is cursed by you deals damage to you, you can use your reaction to roll a d6. You reduce the damage by your Warlock level + the number rolled. If the attack originated within your miasma and you rolled a 5 or 6 you instead take no damage.
14 Level Master of Hexes
Explosive Hex. When you deal damage to the target cursed by you, you can cause your curse to explode with sinister energy. The target and each creature of your choice in a 30-foot Emanation originating from the target take 3d6 Necrotic, Psychic, or Radiant damage (your choice), and their Speed is reduced by 10 feet until the start of your next turn. Any creature that takes this damage that is in your miasma at the start of their turn takes an additional 3d6 damage of the same type. Once you use this benefit, you can’t use it again until you finish a Long Rest unless you expend a Pact Magic slot (no action required) to restore your use of it.
Inescapable Hex. If a creature cursed by you starts its turn within your miasma and ends its turn outside of your miasma, but still within 500ft you can teleport to an unoccupied space within 10ft of the creature.
So, is getting the static AC boost from medium armor and shields a problem, or not? Because frankly this iteration is still essentially "they get the same AC as a 2014 Hexblade", which sounded like it was an issue for some earlier in the discussion.
Ultimately, I'm not sure there's a way to run effective AC boosts that doesn't make the subclass the far and away best pick for Blade Warlocks. Really, I'd suggest trying something with less general mitigation power and/or more limited uses. Looking at the PHB, we've got Feylock with free Misty Steps for pulling back if melee gets dicey, upgrading to allow its use as a reaction and with a temp HP on cast for some extra buffer, Lightlock with a continuously scaling pool of Bonus Action healing and at higher levels a temp HP buffer that can be refreshed throughout the day, Fiendlock with temp HP on enemy kills and eventually one resistance per day, and GOOlock with admittedly little defensive power. Three of four have some kind of buffer power to keep them going, but one with limits rather than a constant buff. I'd look for something closer to that rather than essentially emulating the 2014 experience.
Maybe build on the Undying Will feature in your concept- seems like something in the right neighborhood.