Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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You are really detached from reality and I do not blame you because a lot of ppl have a big misconception of the 2014 hexblade situation. The actual hexblade subclass from 1-14 was not as great as people seem to think. Beyond the first level features, the rest was nothing to write home about. Accursed specter was very rarely usable due to the humanoid restriction, armor of hexes was very feast or famine (all or nothing), and tied to the curse which was only a once per short rest use and master of hexes is regarded by most as a very lackluster capstone, and it is. The hexblade was broken because it was a very front-loaded subclass which gave you CHA based attacks and a free dmg booster at lvl 1, and due to this fact the hexblade was the best subclass, but not for warlocks, for paladins (and other CHA based weapon wielding classes such as a valor bard). The hexblade was referred to as the best warlock subclass by a mile due to its effectiveness of other classes (mainly paladin) and in fact it was not a very appealing choice to take from 1-14 (or beyond) as a straight up warlock. Somehow this translated into hexblade equal best subclass ever and into this narrative that the hexblade invalidated other warlock subclasses. Many hexblades played with the 2014 version where1/2 level dips on paladins, its very rare in fact to have seem a pure hexblade warlock with 0 multiclassing.
With the CHA attacks moved to PotB (and for some fuked up reason still kept as a lvl1 option meaning paladins can still take a single lvl dips into warlocks for CHA attacks) and also the subclass moved to lvl3, the dip issues are gone as far as the hexblade is concerned and its main identity and appeal needs to be restructured. Yes, PotB allows all warlocks to be able to melee and weapon wield, but, PotB alone does not provide all the necessary tools to do so (and it should not), in fact, many Bladelocks look at a fighter dip at 1st level to optimize and be able to melee properly (which makes the fighter the new hexblade in terms of the 1 level dips), and while this works because on top of the armor proficiencies you get CON saves, which are fantastic on warlock, weapon masteries and a fighting style (while leaving the door open for a 2nd level later on to get action surge), many people feel hamstrung by the fact that of they want to PotB properly they HAVE to multiclass.
In comes the new hexblade, which people where hoping it would be the subclass which gives them the proper tools to build their bladelock without having to multiclass. Sonwhats the problem? Well, apparently WoTC, and also a lot of people how unfortunately have no idea of game design, are so afraid of the infamous hexblade problem (which is no longer possible due to core changes in the warlock class and subclasses coming at lvl3) that they can’t bring themselves to design a proper hexblade that feels and plays good.
A revised hexblade neess to look at doing a couple of things, which in fairness, the designer seem to have identified, but they are all awfully implemented;
- Give frontline AC (they try to do this with accursed shield, but the actual AC boost is unappealing and on top of that has a bunch of conditions which make it unreliable on top of being bad).
- Helping Warlock in melee maintain concentration (unyielding will is decent, but its uses are too limited and the AoE dmg part is weak and does not scale which make it a non-feature after a couple of levels)
- Giving warlocks an incentive to actually be in melee (accursed shield is terrible at this because its not a reward for being in melee, its a punishment when are not, which is terrible design. Malign brutality and its weapon based features are a much better example of this and I think its the best designed feature in the subclass but it still has some issues, with the bonus action attack fighting with A LOT of other bonus action features for the spot and it should just be an attack you make as part of the same action of casting the spell making it closer to what other gishes have withe the ca trip and attack thing, and the movement bit triggering attacks of opportunity and the wording ‘straight’ implying not being able to move around objects, hazards, other creatures, etc. just needs to be a teleport closer to what its invocation counterpart used to be in 2014).
- Giving the D8 melee caster hybrid good defensive options (armor of hexes is not bad but also not great. I would prefer if it was tied to being active while concentrating on a spell rather then tied to a single target limited use debuff, but its ok as is)
The issue with the UA hexblade is not that ppl just want the old, is that this one gives nothing of the old that was good and the new is not exciting either, hexblades curse has been butchered and at lvl3 does nothing except for being a lackluster and unreliable defensive boost (which leaves a bad taste in people’s mouth the feature was historically a single target dmg AMP and the most iconic hexblade feature and such drastic shifts in identity are never gonna be well received), no proper AC fix and the features which are new and good (unyielding will and malign brutality) still have some glaring issues, not to mention the capstone being garbage (2 features which should be part of the base hexblade curse and a oncer per long rest dmg burst which is worst than a cantrip).
Good news all of the issues are (mostly) easily fixed;
- restore hexblades curse to its original function with mild changes (dmg boost, improved crit and healing need to be all present here. They can make it tied to Hex if they want like the horror UA version, but if they do they can’t make a bunch of other features dependent on it.)
- Design a feature that fixes they AC issue properly, without being dependent on hexbaldes curse or any other debilitating conditions and not necessarily with medium armor (make it part of the unyielding will feature, remove the stupid and very lackluster AoE which no one really cares about anyway and implement a new feature which allows warlocks to get a 17/18 AC without needing above 16 DEX to function - I still believe that it should be an AC boost which scales with CHA similarly to Draconic Sorcerers, Bladesingers, Genie Paladins or ‘Dance?’ Bards)
- make some changes to malign brutality and armor hexes so they are mire reliable and less clunky and complicated
- create an actual satisfying, fun and powerful capstone which incentivizes people to take levels into the warlock class as opposed to looking at multiclass options because they do not care for the capstone (it can be the exploding curse but with a lot more dmg and some added utility, if they make hexblades curse tied to hex you can introduce a way to use Hex without concentration, or just straightforward upgrades to the base hexblades curse - crit on 18, more dmg on hit, more healing - it could be a oncer per long rest optional curse upgrade where you make the curse super powerful for one combat.)
The hexblade does not need to be scrapped and ppl just need to get out of their bubble and look at what ppl are actually saying. Most of you have no idea of what good game design is (and its ok its not a skill that anyone possesses like other skills I am sure that you can do things I cant) and unfortunately have a very limited view of how. to construct fun, appealing and functional content.
agree with most of it :)
but in 5e hexblades were not only taken by Paladin's for the chr to hit/dmg but also by sorcerer's to get armor + shield prof and a way to have a good cantrip, the sorcery points they lost could easy be offset by converting pact slots to sorcery points. In DnD 2024 sorcerer's will go down to either figther dip or Paladin dip to get access to armor + shield. There were not many players doing a hexblade as their character, most just for MC. Famous build ( Pal 6 / hex 14 ) + ( Sorc 17 / hex 3 ).
For a Paladin who just wants to get chr to hit/dmg he / she doesn't even need to MC, eldritch adept feat would get him the same, question is there is a feat worth more then the capstone ? that's something every Paladin has to answer for him/herself.
The hexblade in this form in just very bad design and w/o a way to get out of melee like rogue/monk he can not be played as a "gish". He needs some way to get better armor ( taking 2 feats is not a fix ). He can just dip 1 lvl ftr / pala to achieve that but it shouldn't be desinged in a way that neeeds you to MC .....
Giving Hexblades a way to get their chr to AC i'm very divided on that, they would need that ability latest by level 3 and then every Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer would wring their hands to dip 3 levels of hexblade to get access to that.
So regarding the last part, yes, I agree that a feature which adds CHA to AC would be desirable for sorcerers and unfortunately , the same way that a lvl 1 fighter dip is so powerful, there is not a lot you can do, design wise, to prevent that without hampering the class getting the feature. I said this a lot, and I will keep repeating it, the existence of MC should not restrict design and hamstring classes, if an interaction is too powerful DMs have all the power to stop a player from abusing certain MC combinations.
The way you can fix it is either make it the same as draconic sorcerer so it does not stack (10+DEX+CHA), and this way you can get a 17 AC (equivalent to half-plate) with a 14 in DEX. Another way to do it which hampers it a little bit, but not by a lot is something like this: “While concentrating on a spell, if you are not wearing medium or heavy armor, and not wielding a shield, you get a bonus to you AC equal to your current pact magic slot level.” This way it scales naturally and the same roof as CHA modifier would be, but it requires levels in warlock, which would also incentivize straight warlock level builds.
You can't design class features in a vacuum and expect them to be balanced, Multiclassing is absolutely part of that environment that every class feature needs to be evaluated within.
If you make it (10 + DEX + CHA), it's just another Unarmed Defense which a lot of the respondents on this thread have been vocally against. I don't agree that they need medium armor, and giving them an Unarmored Defense or a free (preferably scaling) Armor of Shadows, would be okay with me. However, several people have voiced the desire or perceived need for medium armor. A potential solution is a scaling bonus, either a CHA bonus that caps based on class level or a flat bonus that scales with class level. For example, a constant +1 or a conditional +2 at 3rd level that increases by 1 at level 6 or so while no wearing heavy armor or a shield could be a decent benefit without actually giving medium armor proficiency.
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At the time of its release, hexblade may have been the strongest warlock subclass, but that position was then taken over by the dao genie.
Getting back on topic, I'm hesitant to fix the hexblade's AC problem by giving it a bonus simply because of all the potential interactions with other sources of AC. For instance, if your game allows species from MPMM, then a tortle hexblade would suddenly become very tanky. And it's not just current features that need to be considered, it would also limit design options in the future. I therefore think it's better better to either give medium armor proficiency or a different AC calculation. If 10+dex+cha is too weak (and it probably is), then you could add some kind of bonus to it, but one that only applies when you actually use this formula.
Still will disagree with you on MC balancing. You cannot hamstring features due to MC reasons. You are just wrong on that and anyone with any game design knowledge will tell you the exact same thing. Again, fighter is a prime example of this. Seeing as we will never see eye to eye on this matter its useless to keep going in circles
AC needs to be fixes regardless of how they do it but a flat conditional +2 is definitely not the way.
I mean bladesingers get to straight up add their INT modifier to their AC and everyone seemed to like that in the UA. I do not see why giving it to hexblades would be so terrible. There will always be exploitable interactions, but again in a game as free as DnD you can’t design to account for everything. You have to design in a way that makes the class/subclass in a vacuum (considering easy accessed things like feats and spells but not things like MC options or older content which may be updated) and then leave it up to DMs to put a stop to any broken or exploitable interactions.
For me, just as an example, I would not allow a Paladin to take 1 lvl in warlock or take eldritch adept from 2014 for PotB. Paladins are already good enough and taking another classes feature just to be almost completely SAD is just an exploit IMO (WoTC did not fix this because they made PotB a lvl1 feature again). If they want ChA based attacks they can take shelaighlei (probably butchered the spelling) and do so within the norm of rules and have to use their BA at the start of each combat and thats ok.
Classes and subclasses need to be functional as a standalone and MC possibilities should always be considered a secondary aspect of the game.
I think part of the issue is that WotC may feel pressured to release an update. Whether it is from the fans of the Hexblade or the stance of "backwards compatibility" not really working with the Hexblade. I don't what the reality or perception of 2024 adoption rates are, but the more legacy content that is updated and replaced, the fewer incentives to stay on the 2014 rules there are and the higher the conversion of tables to the 2024 rules, theoretically, the higher sales are for future products. In addition, for tables that have converted, the more updated content means fewer bad experiences and hopefully, better player retention.
That said, I don't think it needs to be updated in the same way. I don't think it needs medium armor proficiency, but it should feel like a pseudo martial. There are few facets of the Hexblade that the UA is missing.
Some potential changes
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Once per dmg boost are really annoying I already hate that design on lifedrinker I hope they steer away from it. It should just be a dmg boost on every hit. Making feature's tied to specific invocations ain't happening for their design approach. Harrowing hex just needs to allow you to cast a spell and attack using the same action. Attack 2/3 times and casting spell would be too overpowered. The AC needs to improve like you suggest, I mean at that point they can tie it to proficiency modifier instead of having to specify the values. But having a pact weapon, for the way they design, I dont see it happening. At this point hopefully we get another UA after this one dedicated to the hexblade and hopefully they deliver this trime.
Once per turn damage increases is something they appear to playing with in 2024. It's seems underwhelming on its own, but it's nice to not be limited to proficiency uses. You could flip around the limit like with Fey Wanderer Ranger and limit each creature to taking the extra damage once, making it an all day buff, but also a multitarget damage buff.
That was pulled from the original Hexblade mechanics. The Hexblade is in a weird place since they gave a decent chunk of the mechanics to Pact of the Blade.
You're probably right about it being overpowered, but allowing attacking and cantrip casting as part of the attack action without giving the Extra Attack feature seems like tying a feature to a specific invocation (Thirsting Blade).
I didn't tie it to proficiency bonus in order to scale it on Warlock level, not class level.
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Yeah the once per turn dmg increase im not a big fan of. I mean GWM master was oncer per turn in the UA and ppl complained it was too weak so they made it on every hit. Lifedrinker got the reverse treatment and went from every hit to once per turn, which for a lvl9 invocation seems really underwhelming. I hope they either tie hexblades curse to Hex so that you get that dmg boost from the spell together with a crit improvement and healing on kill or just give back the 2014 curse (maybe with some tweaks dude to increases uses, healing reduced like in the UA and dmg goes from prof bonus to D6 or something)
The AC bonus i understand why make it tied to warlock level and I agree. What I had suggested was to tie it to pact magic slot level which is very similar to what you did scaling wise but you get higher values quicker. I still believe they can tie it to CHA modifier no problem that way you incentivize CHA focusing which is how warlock is intended to be built anyway.
Regarding harrowing hex they cant give hexblades the classic gish extra attack due to EB and AB. Exchanging 1 out of 2/3 attacks for up to 4 additional attacks would be too strong (grab spell sniper to avoid close range disadvantage or bond to a magical ranged weapon). What I was saying is the following; After you cast a spell that has the casting time of 1 action using a pact magic slot (implies leveled spell but wouldnt work with multiclass spell slots), you can make a weapon attack as part of the same action. This way it works on turns where u want to use hexblades curse, works with animate objects (since u need the Ba to command the objects), and functionally it would be basically the same as what they did in the UA but smoother to use.
A Warlock/College of Valor of Bard can use Eldritch Blast as part of an attack action (and is another Charisma caster). Eldritch Knight is restricted to Wizard Cantrips. Warlock/Bladesinger allows for it, but the subclass hasn't been updated.
I don't know if there are any Species that allow free choice of cantrips or backgrounds/feats that could potentially put Eldritch Blast on another class's class list.
In addition, you have items like All-purpose Tool and Enspelled Staff/Weapon as a pure College of Valor Bard or Bladesinger Wizard.
There may be other opportunities for shenanigans from other sources I can't think of right now.
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Yeah but those all com online due to Multiclassing or magic items which DMs can prevent, ban or workaround as they see fit. If it was something available to just warlock at level 6, it would be insanely broken.
Valor Bard / Warlock 1 -> Conjure minor elements as bard spell, attack, eldritch blast x4, dual wield attack, off hand attack and if you use it at end game 9th lvl cme with the update thats ( scimitar ) 1d6 + 4d10 + 1d6 + 1d6 + 35 ( 7x +5 attribute ) + 7x 7d8 ( cme @9th lvl ) ~300 dps / Round w/o any magic items
Bladesinger can do the same iirc .....
you don't need any sophisticated shenanigans :)
I didn't say its complicated, I meant that it requires MCing which DMs can and should regulate. You meed warlock 2 for agonizing blast and also spell sniper to EB in melee and not suffer disadvantage if you in melee (or just use ranged weapons.) But yeah the interaction between the gish multi attack and EB+AB is insanely broken and at any table I would DM i would not allow such an exploit. Theybhad the right idea with the Hexblades ‘spellattack’ making it a leveled spell to avoid EB shenanigans, but it should be made in one single action like the attack+cantrips other get.
you only need 1 lvl of warlock tbh, the main "interaction" is not to be AB ( ok, would reduce the overall dmg in that case by 20 ) but the interaction with cme, if you would want to get it realy absurb : 17 Valor Bard / 2 Figther / 1 Warlock
Would i ever play such a char ? never
Would i allow a player to play such a char at my table ? for sure not :)
But since MC is no longer optional in 2024 it is very difficult for a DM to rule out that for her / his players
If a GM has to step in and take away official options from players, that's house ruling unbalanced options.
Let's make this Warlock 2 so the numbers match up. I assume a Pact of the Blade Scimitar? At least one of the weapon attacks will need to be using Dexterity instead of Charisma to hit (+2 or more, but not likely to be +5).
It's important to note the difference. Let's compare it to Firebolt. And as an edge case, let's also look at a Selesnia Initiate* pure UA Hexblade Warlock using Harrowing Hex.
* makes Conjure Minor Elemental a Warlock spell
We'll use a Pact Weapon Scimitar and Dagger. No magic items. 20 Charisma. Level 20. I think the Dex only matters if we normalize for hit chance, which I am not doing. The Hexblade can use a weapon with a larger die since they can't use light weapons with Harrowing Hex. Let's use a Halberd.
College of Valor Bard with Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast (Scimitar Weapon Mastery via Weapon Master Feat):
Average: 278 damage for one Attack action and a Bonus Action.
Pure College of Valor Bard with Fire Bolt (Scimitar Weapon Mastery via Weapon Master Feat):
Average: 163.5 damage for one Attack action and a Bonus Action.
Selesnia UA Hexblade with Harrowing Hex (Halberd Weapon Mastery via Weapon Master):
Average: 247 damage for one Attack action and a Bonus Action.
I think, really, the difference here is that's easier for a Bard to get access to CME and upcast it. Without CME, the above Hexblade will be dealing 58 damage per round if there are two adjacent targets.
I feel the Harrowing Hex feature pushing you towards Cleave while the standard attack and cast allow for more weapon masteries, if you decide you want to invest a feat for those perks, or feats like Polearm Master. Light Weapons won't be completely useless, but Harrowing Hex will lock them out of triggering a second attack from the Light property, even if their bonus action would be available if Harrowing Hex didn't use it (ie, they don't need to cast Hex, change the target of Hex, or something else).
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So, i actually playtested this class and subclasses at levels 1-18 across like 24 or so encounters: no magic items, excepted silvered weaapons on one of the hexblades. all encounters in the Hard range (old deadly)
1)The Dm in 5e is supposed to adapt the game however they think benefits the table. You say homebrew like its a bad word when almost every table has its own house rules, and homebrew. Even adventuring league, is essentially an offcal set of house rules. The dmg officially tells you this, and advises you on ways to alter or adapt the game.
2)AC has a high value in 5e. 1 AC (fighting style) is equivalent in value to 5DPR (twf, dueling) things may vary, but 2 AC for the most dangerous part the fight is a big deal. Warlock and hexblade is a class focused on exceling against one enemy at a time. They should be spending the majority of the time within 10 feet of their prime target, and its ok and good that if they can't, they are less efficient. That creates interesting incentives. They even give them a feature that gives them some of the best chase potential.
3)You dont have to pick any innvocations if you dont want to, but its a different thing entirely to say, i shouldnt have to use any of these features designed to improve my ability to survive and deal damage in melee. AND it would be very unbalanced to design a warlock subclass giving it large baseline defense/survivability while not considering people can use innvocations on top of that.
4) Disengaging for a martial, as i have said is rarely useful for any 'warrior" except Rogue. 2024 monk is actually hardwired to tank. Mitigating damage is probably the most important thing they do. Lets say you use dodge, the best thing you can do is stay in range so your deflect attacks/disadvantage to be attacked is useful. A monk disengaging is giving up 50-60% of its damage, and usually its subclass gimmick, and a monk has to melee to be effective every turn. If you are not moving far enough that enemies cant walk up to you, disengaging does very little for you defensively. and a lot lost offensively. Also monks are likely grappling as thats the psuedo mastery of UA strikes. And, back to hexblades, they dont need more AC than fighters/barbarians/paladins to melee. Thats what you are talking about here. they already have access to up to 16-18 AC without any subclass. Barbarian has 17AC with constant disadvantage.
5) have you ever played t3 with zero magic iitems? because the game is balanced without magic items in mind. I have specifically with this class, and it it was one of the least in danger classes. Yes AC becomes less effective in parties without magic items, for everybody, and the hexblade can get 20 base AC with accursed armor, and they have magic items that add AC. but they dont even need it. They get much more powerful defensive spells than paladin, like shaodws of moil, synaptic static, and in t3 they have 3 level 5 spells per SR (as much as other full casters for the whole day), and in t4 they will have 4. They can hypnotic pattern, hold monster.
If you introduce tons of magic items, its up to you to do it fairly, and also find the right difficulty to create proper levels of challenge. but following DMG encounter rules, and no magic items, with a 4 man party, the warlock has zero trouble being in melee, without disengaging, staight up face tanking from 1-20. In fact its way easier than barbarian or fighter to do so. the most difficult teir is t2, and its not actually difficult, just more difficult than t1, t3 and t4. RAW magic items just makes things easier.
i tested it until 18, and basically its a full caster with martial defenses and focus fire. Aka its easy mode. Foresight means you have permanent dsadvantage and advantage, you can control dangerous monsters, or enable your ally to control them. At this point the hexblade and warlock in general is kinda dominating regular martials.
and for your comparison: what teir is this? and in this requires 2 very rare magic items, out of the 7 reccomended for the whole party, so i assume you are giving them wahtever magic items they want, because random item drop that would be unlikely
A 25 AC fighter/paladin is using a shield, the 22AC fighter would be a more apt comparison, but thats OK because thats why warlock has concentration spells, to adjust its playstyle.
t3:
25 AC fighter 25*.4*3=30
21-23 (bracers/ring)AC warlock with shadows of moil. 36%/25% hit rate. cha build: 25*3*.36=27 or for dex build: 25*3*.25=18.75
to mention - 10-15 damage from target per round
less damage taken than a fighter.
or, if you want to maintain your concentration on offense, synaptic static, -3.5 attack. for 42.5%/32.5% that will stack with other sources of disadvantage, and let you deal full dpr damage while defensive as a shield using warrior.
or you can hold monster giving everyone critical attacks and setting the monster's attacks per round to zero.
And thats the big flaw in you guys calculus., the warlock gets powerful magic, mostly specifically designed to let it use magic in addition to martial attacks.
Where in the 2024 PHB is shadows of moil?
What is or how are you getting these individual numbers in the formula cha build: 25*3*.36=27 or for dex build: 25*3*.25=18.75?