Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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There was some discussion of ribbon features (the level 17 problem has been well-addressed), and my first thought when I read this class was wondering how it doesn't have a feature that allows it to use "weapon attack as part of spell" or weapon as a material component spells with an unarmed strike. (Green-flame blade and booming blade were my first thoughts, but they aren't the only options.)
That would actually be a decent feature for the subclass, as an additional level 3 feature.
Your unarmed strikes count as weapons for the purpose of any Warrior of the Mystic Arts spell you cast that requires the use of a weapon as part of the spell or cantrip.
I personally like this subclass. Level 17 feature is useless tho
“And the Lord spake, saying, 'First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out! Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thou foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.'"
Other than the level 17 feature I am liking it more than I initially did. It works reasonably well for a ninja style character. Unarmed combat, acrobatics, stealth, weapons that fit with a bit of flavoring to be ninja weapons, ninja magic. Allows you to get it without a multiclass.
I snoozed on the feedback, and never got to make my suggestions:
If Monks can use their Focus Points to create spell slots, then they're almost a substitute for Sorcery Points (almost).
My suggestions would be:
@john Considering Monks still have a majority of their attacks vested in Unarmed Strikes through Flurry of Blows, I don't see a situation where Monks will value WIS > DEX - so True Strike specifically makes little mechanical sense, and currently you can easily just use a simple dagger with your Martial Arts die to enable True Strike, Booming Blade, and Green-Flame Blade. If they made Mystic Monks able to use Sword-cantrips, then I would just have them treat their free hand as a weapon worth 1+ CP for the purpose of spell casting to allow those spells, rather than specifically enabling True Strike.
Personally, I don't think Mystic Monks should dapple in Meta Magic. That's the Sorc' thing and mostly their only unique thing. If you want, you can give them some options that is reminiscent of Meta Magic - possibly also a better solution to tailor some spell bonuses that works for the Monk.
Smites uses your Bonus Action to cast, making it exceptionally problematic on the Monk, who really want to use that BA for their Flurry of Blows, taking Dash/Disengage action or just a straight resource-less Unarmed Strike.
Well, if they wanted to go this route, they could just do something similar to the Eldritch Smite invocation.
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My houserulings.
Monks already have high DPR with FoB; I really doubt they’ll stack something like Smite on top of it.
The subclass very much sets them up as related to a Sorcerer (in the same way that EK and AT are related to a Wizard). Even if they aren't given a free Meta Magic type, they've already got Font of Magic type ability, just based on Focus Points. That could simply just be extended to cover Meta Magic abilities as well. Several of the Meta Magic types could be viewed through a lens of the Monk using their ability to focus inner energy into their spell.
Not problematic at all, just another tradeoff anyone with multiple Bonus Action choices has. The tradeoff in this case is:
A) extra mystical damage on a successful Attack action hit (as if through a kiai type strike)
B) extra attempts to hit
Monk's aren't the only ones make that choice. A Paladin who has an ability (through some means: dual wielding light weapon, a speed weapon (such as a Scimitar of Speed), etc.) to make bonus action attacks has to make the same trade off. Or, more broadly about any bonus action ability vs more damage now: a Rogue making the tradeoff of using any of their Bonus Action abilities ... vs gaining advantage on their attack for Sneak Attack (bc they don't have an ally near the target, or to cancel Disadvantage on an attack when they do have an ally near the target). Or a Sorcerer using Quicken spell to cast a damage spell vs using any of their Bonus Action spells (like Expeditious Retreat or Misty Step).
There are already "do something later via Bonus Action vs do extra damage now but sacrifice your bonus action to do it" tradeoffs that characters make. This just becomes one more of them. And one that parallels an existing ability very directly, and is on-theme for the class (the "kiai" type strike).
That "kiai" type strike is what I'm looking for. It could be via True Strike or a Smite (Wrathful Smite being particularly interesting as a spell based "death touch"/Dim Mak type effect). The pre-2024 weapon cantrips COULD work mechanically, in the same way an unmodified True Strike might work, where you force the Monk to attack with a Monk Weapon even if that makes absolutely no sense thematically/RP-wise. But why are you forcing a non-kensei monk to make a weapon attack instead of letting them do all of their things via unarmed strikes? It's no different than 2014 smite spells vs 2024 smite spells: just let it work with unarmed strikes. Which is another support toward casting monks having at least one Smite spell: they're clearly intended to be used by unarmed attackers, so why isn't the peak unarmed attacker being given any of them via their caster subclass?
It seems rather contradictory that the rule writers would make one category of spells usable for an unarmed striker, and then not give any spells like that to the main unarmed striker's caster subclass ... or that rule writers would be perfectly fine adding unarmed strike compatibility to that category of spells, but leave out one of the adjacent spells (True Strike essentially being a smite* spell, just not a Smite spell).
(* whatever term you want to put here, Smite spells, 2014 Booming Blade, 2014 Green Flame Blade, and 2024 True Strike are all of the same basic category)
I feel like it's more straight forward to make a simple alteration/exception to True Strike (the same one that was made to Smite spells in 2014 vs 2024), or grant them a single Smite spell ... rather than the more extensive reworking you'd have to make to Eldritch Smite (how does the monk get it? Monks don't have a Pact Weapon, so you have to modify that aspect of it as well).
More mechanical modifications are required to give them Eldritch Smite than the mechanical modification/exception to let them use True Strike with Unarmed Strikes. No mechanical modifications are needed to just put Wrathful Smite on their spell list as part of their 6th or 11th level subclass feature.
I just mean that they could give the monk the ability to expend a spell slot for extra damage without rewriting any published spells. I would love True Strike, Green Flame Blade, and Booming Blade to get revisions that allow them to be used with any weapon, regardless of value, or with unarmed strikes, but I don't see that happening.
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My houserulings.
Eldritch Knight doesn't have a spellbook, they don't have those associated benefits of collecting new spells, ritual-casting any spell from their spellbook, nor can swap a spell once per Short Rest that Wizards do, just to name the early level stuff. Just because EK is built on the foundations of the Wizard class, they have very few of their actual features.
Arcane Trickster is in a very similar boat as the EK. They go very niche into specializing the use of Mage Hand but have few of the tools that Wizard does.
Similarly I don't think it would be prudent for Mystic Monk to get straight access to Meta Magic that is a major Sorcerer feature. That they get access to conversion of Focus Points into Spell Slots is already a very lenient tool that functionally can make the Mystic Monk replenish most of their resources on a Short Rest.
The problem I'm talking about is that the subclass provides an option for something they already do: Use their Bonus Action for more damage.
And just talking straight numbers it's tough to beat BA for 2x Unarmed Strikes with a Smite spell, especially if we account resource uses.
At levels 3-6 you compare [ 2x ( 3.5/4.5 + 3/4 ) ~ 13 / 17 avg. DPR ] versus Divine Smite's [ 2 * 4.5 ~ 9 avg. DPR ]. At level 7 when you get 2nd lvl spell slots, it's still not worth by the numbers; [ 3 * 4.5 ~ 13.5 avg. DPR ] versus [ 17 ].
Even if you account for a 70% hit-rate we're comparing at level 7:
2x US: [ 17 * 70% = 11.9 avg. DPR ]
Smite: [ 13.5 * ( 100% - ( 30% miss chance_attack 1 * 30% miss chance_attack 2 ~ 9%) ~ 91% ) = 12.3 avg. DPR ]
Just barely beating the 2x US but at the cost of a 2nd lvl spell slot (3 FP worth) versus 1 FP for Flurry. Accounting for critical hits is a bit more complicated because we have to make assumptions, like that you always smite on the first attack that hits or you risk losing out on Smite damage for the entire turn. More work than I care to account for here. Crits do slightly favor Smites, but marginally.
When we get 3x US per Flurry at level 10, the math swings back in favor of the US.
Smites can afflict conditions, but if that's the goal, I would prefer to grant the Mystic Monk ways to enhance their attacks with magic to inflict those conditions, and leave Smites out of it. That also have the benefit of feeling more in line with Monk features (Stunning Strike) than using Paladin's Smite.
The examples you make with Paladin having a similar trade-off includes an item choice or magic items that adds another way for them to weaponize their BA. Subclasses are more fundamental choices that cannot be replaced as easily and if they clash with their base class features to fulfill the same purpose, that's usually a bad design.
Rogue can utilize their BA for ADV on ATK with Steady Aim or to use it for Dashing or Disengaging - all wildly different applications with different use cases.
I don't really get what you're saying here.
First of all I argued that enabling True Strike specifically to be used with Unarmed Strikes would be a bad design over having the Monk treat their free hand as a fitting material component for spells. Read: I don't argue for specific favoritism that is very short sighted, I argue for broader application. I just stated that you could currently use a Monk weapon to much the same effect, which means giving them this feature is largely inconsequential and should not be considered a problem - aka do it, but if they choose not to, there's still an option to get the same end result - flavor it however you will with your DM.
The reason I specify that Monks must use their free hand as the material component is to keep it in line with other users of those spells and avoid that they carry other stuff in their hands and get to True Strike/Booming Blade/Green-Flame Blade with their legs. I don't have a specific abuse-case in mind, but people will likely find something. It's just easier to mechanically make it similar to avoid opening a can of worms.
Rules may have been changed in 2024 to have broader uses - for instance Smites being usable with Unarmed Strikes - but not have any particular intention aside from better supporting existing classes, multiclassing, features or whatnot. It is not guaranteed to be a shoe-in for a primary Unarmed Strike user like the Monk to acquire Smites. You can argue it is a very fitting spell to give, but then I argue the other way that the Action Economy makes it very awkward to use and that Monks already have ways to weaponize their Bonus Action - thus it seems better to provide something else or adjacent - like the aforementioned magic enhanced strikes that can apply conditions, ala Stunning Strike already does.
I didn't say that the EK and AT _are_ Wizards, nor that the MM is a Sorcerer. I said related to. What I meant was that when the mechanics for these subclasses refer to another bag of mechanics that the subclass draws from, the EK and AT refer to the Wizard, and the MM refers to the Sorcerer.
And, really, just saying that the MM can use FP as a substitute for SP, without granting them any Meta Magic methods directly, would be enough. That would allow them use FP to empower whatever Meta Magic they might get from MetaMagic Adept.
I think I missed that part in your previous comment. I think a statement (in the "Spellcasting Focus" section of their 3rd level "Spellcasting" feature) that they can use their free hand or unarmed strike in the place of any weapon that is specified in a spell component would be enough. A simple and straight forward rule exception.
I also think that Wrathful Smite is very on-theme for them, but can respect that "True Strike" is good enough if we're trying to preserve smite spells as mostly being reserved for Paladins (though some Clerics get one in their subclass lists as well).
MetaMagic Adept is a Tasha's feat that didn't get picked up in the 2024 rules. Yes you can still take it as part of the backwards compatibility rules, but I wouldn't expect WotC to make a hook to something the subclass doesn't do.
Would be kinda similar if you made the Barbarian able to replace an attack from the Attack action for a cantrip they know... if the Barbarians don't inherently have access to that feature, then the hook doesn't make sense.
The only way I could see this happening is if they gave MM a very very limited amount of MetaMagic options - maybe just giving them one specific like Transmute Spell and then plant that hook to use FP in place of SP.
Still... I find that very unlikely to happen with how WotC makes subclasses.
The trouble returns as Unarmed Strikes can be delivered by any body part. You can headbutt to make an Unarmed Strike. I just wanted MM to be on a level playing field to all sword-cantrip users - they need to use a hand.
This monk is already on the same playing field as EK for use blade cantrips. If it wants to use booming blade or green flame blade it needs to be using a weapon. This is a spell casting monk. If you want a magic punching monk they have Elements and Dragon Monks. If you want to make one of you attacks a blade cantrip you need to use a blade. It’s fine. The problems with this monk are it gave nothing special at 3rd level and 17th level feature doesn’t work. Easy fix is to bring the first 6th level feature to 3rd level, and give them an Eldritch Smite like ability that works with unarmed attacks at 17th. The survey has been long closed so we are all just hoping for the best on this one.
To be fair, becoming a 1/3 caster is most of the meat they need for 3rd level- Rogues get a gimmick with Mage Hand and Fighters get a gimmick for weapon summoning. Personally I’d toss in adding WIS mod to Arcana checks so your magic Monk doesn’t have to spread their stats even more to be able to roleplay as magically knowledgeable.
The problem is adding another feature at 3rd without removing one from 6th changes the normal way they build subclasses. I’m sure there is are exceptions, but they usually only give 2 features at either 3rd or 6th level and not both. So moving one down from 6th is the only way to keep with that design choice. If they don’t care about that, I want something more unique than just Wis to arcana. Maybe something like Feel Magic- basically an always active detect magic but the range is touch. Also if you touch/hold the creature/object for an hour which can be done during a short or long rest, you can identify it as if you had cast the identity spell.