OP ability scores

So I'm in a campaign where we all use the standard arrary or point buy in ability scores. Recently a new character joined that used the rolling system. The DM said that we usually use the standards, but the player was unwilling to change their ability scores.

This is because those scores are all incredibly high. I'm not saying that he cheated or anything (even tho we didn't see the rolls in the game log because he'd already made the character), but I think there's a 20, an 18, two 16s, and the lowest is 12 at level 7, while everyone else uses the standard ones. This feels unfair.

What would you do in this situation? Should something like this be allowed?

As an outsider, I can't tell what the dynamic is like and whether I am getting the whole story. Going off what's been stated however:

'The DM said that we usually use the standards, but the player was unwilling to change their ability scores'

And therein lies the main problem; the DM is the one that sets the rules, not the player. If one player is the exception, what does that say about ensuring fair play at the table?

It feels unfair....because it is. Best thing to do is have an open discussion stating that it's unfair that everyone else is playing by the rules except one player. It's just simple table etiquette. 

I would question why the DM would allow this to slide? It would be like allowing everyone access to a common item at the start of the game but giving the Paladin a Holy Avenger.

There is not a lot more to say beyond Lamoon01’s comments. The DM needs to swallow their conflict avoidance anxiety or whatever else it is that’s keeping them from bringing this player in line with the group or it seems problems will only continue to pile up to me.

Quote from PPSS2022 >>

 

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What would you do in this situation? Should something like this be allowed?

 Session 0 determins the way stats are generated, as a Forever DM with a group of players I've had since 2020, I use the dice method unseen because I trust my players, and I tend to run heroic level games, ie I give out good magic items and send monsters that should be too hard for them. As they like a mix of RP and good combat every session. 

This said, if the players at the table use the array or point buy allowing a rolled character becomes unbalanced. That person should set aside their heroic character for a game where heroic characters are the norm, and make a character witth either pointbuy or the array. 

Edit: Also as a long time player and DM, I dislike it when someone feels the need to bring a character from outside a game to the table. If you are new to the group and game, make a new character. Don't bring a character you've had for 5 years from a long dead game. 

Quote from gothicshark >>

Quote from PPSS2022 >>

 

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What would you do in this situation? Should something like this be allowed?

 Session 0 determins the way stats are generated, as a Forever DM with a group of players I've had since 2020, I use the dice method unseen because I trust my players, and I tend to run heroic level games, ie I give out good magic items and send monsters that should be too hard for them. As they like a mix of RP and good combat every session. 

This said, if the players at the table use the array or point buy allowing a rolled character becomes unbalanced. That person should set aside their heroic character for a game where heroic characters are the norm, and make a character witth either pointbuy or the array. 

Edit: Also as a long time player and DM, I dislike it when someone feels the need to bring a character from outside a game to the table. If you are new to the group and game, make a new character. Don't bring a character you've had for 5 years from a long dead game. 

 Yeah, I think that the DM is just generally easy-going, (which isn't a bad thing inherently). Also, the power gap gets worse as well, because the player in question also seems to be an optimizer (again, not inherently bad) but this creates a further unfairness, as the good abilities are all in the best possible scores.

I agree with @Lamoon01 completely.  Standard Array and Point Buy provides a specific range and distribution of ability scores.  With bonuses the highest score would normally be a 16.  So a player having a 20, an 18 and a couple of 16's isn't only unfair but it throws the balance off in regards to the rest of the party.

If the player is 'unwilling to change' his scores then perhaps he needs to find a new game with a different group that allows obvious cheating.  Even if your group is hurting for players.  

In regards to the DM, well, he/she is the DM which means enforcing both rules and table etiquette.  Trying to appease a problem player could come at the cost of regular established players.

I'm both a DM and a player depending on the group.  As a DM I would state clearly that this is the established method of character generation for ALL players.  As a player, I wouldn't play in a group where the DM allows situations such as this to fester. 

If the DM says use standard array, ALL players have to use standard array. If they won't budge, they'll probably cause problems elsewhere, and they probably find a new group.

I'll grant that it's dubious, petty, and unfair to the others to bring these stats to a standard array table, but honestly imo they don't truly make for a "broken" character in and of themselves. On the skill side of things, having +4-5 in a skill is about where a typical level 1 character with prof starts, and it won't grow any further unless it's also a prof, which largely rules out their dominating on skill checks. It can give them a bit more of an edge on consistently making saving throws, but by tier 2 powerful enemies' DCs are in the mid-teens and so a +4-5 alone is still only slightly better than even odds, meaning rolls can still have a lot of weight. As far as attacking goes, very few classes/subclasses care about more than one or two stats, so having extra in others doesn't really do anything on that front. Being able to get +3-4 in CON for HP on a squishy class is nice, but it's also the most passive instance and could easily not come up much in practice.

I'm not saying you're wrong to be against someone coming to the table and pulling this, but I do wonder what exactly is making the character OP, as ability mods alone don't really push the needle that far outside of initial class capabilities imo, particularly after tier 1.

The ability scores themselves aren't the real problem, it's that the GM let the new player run a character that did not use the same rules as everyone else.  That gives the player notice that they can push to get the GM to let them get away with stuff.  But as a player, there's not much you can do beyond politely expressing your concerns to the GM.

I agree with everything said so far EXCEPT about bringing in characters from other campaigns AS LONG AS EVERYONE IS COOL WITH IT. Maybe this isn’t what the commenter meant, but I have a bunch of characters prebuilt for a campaign with items purchased ahead of time that go against the starting currency. That said, only the ones based around a build from one specific campaign I am currently in have rolled stats.

The closest thing to an exception for this rule was a character that took part in a series of oneshot stories that got more items and currency as they went on, but everyone did this. I should also note everyone else had rolled the stats for their characters whereas I didn’t even know what that entailed at the time and just went point buy. I don’t think the DM knew, but he was managing a lot of random players that kept coming and going and doubt he cared too much.

Quote from Maruntoryx >>

If the DM says use standard array, ALL players have to use standard array. If they won't budge, they'll probably cause problems elsewhere, and they probably find a new group.

This, completely. Tell your DM that he has the right to enforce the character creation rules, and if someone is unwilling to budge, they're likely not a team player anyway, so it's best to kicked them from the group now before they cause problems later. Try and talk to other players and get them to publicly back the DM on this as well; if it's a group decision, the DM will feel more at ease standing firm.

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

I'll grant that it's dubious, petty, and unfair to the others to bring these stats to a standard array table, but honestly imo they don't truly make for a "broken" character in and of themselves. On the skill side of things, having +4-5 in a skill is about where a typical level 1 character with prof starts, and it won't grow any further unless it's also a prof, which largely rules out their dominating on skill checks. It can give them a bit more of an edge on consistently making saving throws, but by tier 2 powerful enemies' DCs are in the mid-teens and so a +4-5 alone is still only slightly better than even odds, meaning rolls can still have a lot of weight. As far as attacking goes, very few classes/subclasses care about more than one or two stats, so having extra in others doesn't really do anything on that front. Being able to get +3-4 in CON for HP on a squishy class is nice, but it's also the most passive instance and could easily not come up much in practice.

I'm not saying you're wrong to be against someone coming to the table and pulling this, but I do wonder what exactly is making the character OP, as ability mods alone don't really push the needle that far outside of initial class capabilities imo, particularly after tier 1.

It depends on class also.   For typical rolls, bounded accuracy is really oppressive to the point where you need to go out of your way to break out of it.   That said....  you can still break out of it IF you know what you're doing.  The wizard in our game has +4 INT, but got expertise in Arcana, and paired that with a Mizzium apparatus.  Individually they aren't causing a problem.... but combined it means he matches the floor for the Mizzium apparatus skill check; so any bonus above that means it is impossible for him to fail for lower level spells. 

I have an Artificer that has 22 INT after obtaining one of the Manuals, and we're currently level 8.  We're a generally high powered campaign, but Flash of Genius scales incredibly well, letting me add a +6 to saving throw or skill check. I have am usually able to flip someone's Saving throw to a success without knowing the DC before hand.... just through the sheer size of the bonus.     And I'm pretty sure the DM still does not grasp the significance of how high my skill checks can reach (native +6 to +9) for any given knowledge check, and I can add an extra +6 on top of that.   For once I had a 27 total while researching something, and the DM said I didn't learn anything important to what we were doing.   Not because of the DC, but because we were pursuing the wrong lead.  For reference, the game considers a DC of 25 to be very hard, and 30 to be nearly impossible.  

In practice, the Wizard with an INT of 18, which is completely reasonable to hit in standard array, found a way to get just past broken with the Mizzium Apparatus just by getting expertise in one skill. And with the ever ballooning size of the Wizard spell list, and spells in general being poorly balanced, hes routinely found and deployed spells that can hard counter almost any threat, short of a boss enouncter.   

Meanwhile my Artificer looks more broken on paper.  But the way the class works, and what Flash of Genius can be applied to, I still can't break the boundaries of most situations.  And frankly the DM routinely fails to recognize that I should be getting more information, at least tangentially, with the fact that my favorable range (10 or higher on a d20) for knowledge/investigation checks is 19-35.  

With that in mind, its also not difficult to uplift other players via how scenarios are crafted.  One thing more DMs really need to start understanding is how its OK to simply skip a roll, if the players are doing a good job of assembling and/or executing a plan or idea.  The other players are rewarded for being smarter, not rolling higher.  

I mean, this is more an example of a broken magic item than a flaw in the basic math of ability score, plus the need for expertise underscores my point that simply having +3-5 from a mod in multiple stats doesn’t inherently give the power to hold a definitive lead across the board.

Even if players rolled all 18's by some struck of luck that was better than hitting the lottery a dozen times, it would NOT break the game. They still max out at 20 in only two abilities until they get an Epic Boom or some magical item that increases a stat. 

The monsters in the new MM, are more than capable of humbling new PC's walking around with 18's like they were a proud peacock. 

It's not really about breaking the game, rather it's about having all the players at the same standard.  Otherwise it simply causes issues now and later.  

As a DM, I'd simply explain to the new player that the campaign standards are 'X, Y and Z'.  If they didn't wish to abide by this then I'd simply advise them that they needed to find a new group.

This isn't really about the stats or stat generation technique. The Player in question is refusing to play by the table consensus and the DMs rules. They are not participating in the table contract.
They can either remake the character with the agreed upon rules or they can find a different table. 

I agree with everyone else, having a stat maxed out at first level only really gives an advantage until level 4 when everyone else gets a chance to catch up. The bigger problem is a player not sticking to the rules the DM and table agreed on. If they don't stick to the social contract over this how can you know they'll stick to it the rest of the campaign? 

Quote from CunningSmile >>

I agree with everyone else, having a stat maxed out at first level only really gives an advantage until level 4 when everyone else gets a chance to catch up. The bigger problem is a player not sticking to the rules the DM and table agreed on. If they don't stick to the social contract over this how can you know they'll stick to it the rest of the campaign? 

 Not really. In this player in question, ALL their stats are very good. And they still get ability scores increases, so really the other players won't catch up.

The issue isn't the stats. They're good but I've rolled better (in front of the whole group where we all agreed on rolling).

The issue is that the DM is not being fair. They should be asking the player to use the same ability score generation as the rest of the group and kick them out if they refuse.

Everyone at the table should use the same generation rules. If rolling it should be rolled in front of the DM (and IMO the whole group). 

Quote from PPSS2022 >>

Quote from CunningSmile >>

I agree with everyone else, having a stat maxed out at first level only really gives an advantage until level 4 when everyone else gets a chance to catch up. The bigger problem is a player not sticking to the rules the DM and table agreed on. If they don't stick to the social contract over this how can you know they'll stick to it the rest of the campaign? 

 Not really. In this player in question, ALL their stats are very good. And they still get ability scores increases, so really the other players won't catch up.

 
Eh, that’s not really how this works. As I previously outlined, for saves and skills being in the +3-5 zone is only a marginal boost, and particularly for saves the DCs will scale far past that as they keep leveling. It takes prof and a good mod to be effective in those areas. Multiple high stats has pretty much no benefit to attacks or damage either, so the only areas that might strongly benefit are HP and AC. It’s not nothing, but much more on the low-key and passive side of things than an active and/or dramatic one.