I designed a cantrip for one of my players who is running a knowledge cleric/druid that they envision to be a bit like Indiana Jones in Descent into Avernus. Thus the cantrip is designed to be like a modified whip shillelagh with less damage and more utility. It ends up being a bit like a weakened shillelagh with more range, a one turn mage hand with limited function, and a weak disarm battle maneuver (e.g., no damage) in one. While a player has to choose between these when they cast it, I wonder if it might be doing too much for a cantrip. What do y'all think? Any feedback positive or negative?
I like it. If I may make a suggestion, this might make it simpler and more balanced. I hope you find it helpful. Please remember, this is just my opinion, I could be wrong.
LEVEL
1st
CASTING TIME
1 Action
RANGE/AREA
Touch
COMPONENTS
S, M *
DURATION
Concentration 1 Minute
SCHOOL
Transmutation
ATTACK/SAVE
STR
DAMAGE/EFFECT
You imbue a whip you are holding with magical energy. For the duration, the whip’s reach extends to 20-foot, and you may use your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage rolls made with it.
If you attack an object weighing 5 lbs. or less with the enchanted weapon, the whip wraps around the object, grabbing it and returning it to you. If the object is being worn or carried, it’s bearer must succeed at a strength saving throw to prevent this effect. You must transfer the object to a free hand before the beginning of their next turn, or the object is dropped.
If you use the enchanted weapon to make an attack against a secure object that a whip could wrap around, the whip grasps it tightly and maintans its grip on that object for 1 minute or until you uses a bonus action to yank it free.
Thank you for the helpful feedback. I like what you've done here, as this does simplify the cantrip significantly. My only objection is that the version you suggest would allow the caster to grab a weapon or item from another individual, and in the same round place it in the caster's hand. This is different than every other disarm ability in the game that I know of, where said weapon would drop from their hand to the ground. This gives the opponent who was disarmed the chance to pick up their weapon on their turn, whereas by this language would be far more powerful, because the disarmed would be deprived of that option.
Otherwise I think I will incorporate much of what you recommend. Please, IamSposta and anyone else, let me know if you have any other suggestions!
Also, I think, if made it again, I would remove the disarm ability from the cantrip and instead make my player take the feat that gives battle maneuvers for the disarm ability. That way I would avoid the risk of an overly useful cantrip that takes the place of other, existing abilities.
Thank you for the helpful feedback. I like what you've done here, as this does simplify the cantrip significantly. My only objection is that the version you suggest would allow the caster to grab a weapon or item from another individual, and in the same round place it in the caster's hand. This is different than every other disarm ability in the game that I know of, where said weapon would drop from their hand. This gives the opponent who was disarmed the chance to pick up their weapon on their turn, whereas this would be far more powerful, because the disarmed would be deprived of that option.
Otherwise I think I will incorporate much of what you recommend. Please, IamSposta and anyone else, let me know if you have any other suggestions!
Also, I think, if made it again, I would remove the disarm ability from the cantrip and instead make my player take the feat that gives battle maneuvers for the disarm ability. That way I would avoid the risk of an overly useful cantrip that takes the place of other, existing abilities.
No worries, we’re all a bit distracted lately what with the riots, looting, fires, global pandemic, murder hornets, etc.
I understand your concerns about my suggestions, but if you’ll observe I also suggested making it a 1st-level, 1-minute Concentration Spell. I think that balances it well enough. IMHO, the effect isn’t the issue, the Cantrip status was. But, like I said, just my opinion.
Yeah, I just noticed it. I will think on the concentration and spell level changes. That restricts its use quite a bit, and the ability I modeled it after (shillelagh) does not use concentration. Since my player will not, in general, be using melee abilities (she won't get multiple attacks for instance) this might make its use undesirable in most situations. I understand the need for something like you suggest if it was designed for a wider audience who might try to power game this, however.
A 20 melee attack they can use their Spellcasting ability modifier for for a minute is no joke. Especially with the added utility too. I have several characters who would LOVE that spell. But if you want a Cantrip then make it a Cantrip. One of the biggest problems with it before was the confuzzled duration and needing an attack and a save for the same spell. Way too complicated for something they could do every turn as a Cantrip.
Totally, the duration was entirely a mistake on my part. I am still navigating home brew on here, my apologies. It should have read instantaneous, one action, no duration. So, the caster would have to recast it every turn. I am seriously considering your recommendation though, don't get me wrong! This is it in its current iteration.
Level
Cantrip
Casting Time
1 Action
Range/Area
Touch
Components
V, S, M *
Duration
Instantaneous
School
Transmutation
Attack/Save
Melee
Damage/Effect
Slashing
You imbue a whip you are holding with magical energy. As a part of this spell, the caster makes a melee spell attack with the whip; the whip’s reach extends to 20-foot, and you may use your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage rolls made with it.
On a successful attack against an object of 5 or less pounds that is not worn or carried, the whip wraps around the object, grabbing it and returning it to you. You must transfer the object to a free hand before the beginning of their next turn, or the object is dropped.
If you use the enchanted weapon to make an attack against a secure object that a whip could wrap around, the whip grasps it tightly and maintains its grip on that object for 1 minute or until you use a bonus action to yank it free.
If you use this spell to attack an object that is worn or carried, the person wearing or carrying the object must make a strength saving throw against the caster’s spell save DC. On a failed save, the object is dropped, falling directly to the down from where it was held.
I think that what I will end up doing if it play tests OP, is break it up into two spells. The first would be a cantrip that just does damage (so it is just whip shillelagh), and then having another 1st level spell that builds out the whip like a more powerful mage hand (can be used for disarming, climbing, and grabbing). In this way, I won't have to make my player having to choose between using their whip powerfully and being able to cast bless. I really have a dark place in my heart for OP homebrewing, so I would hate to fall into that trap in the pursuit of a cool signature spell for my player.
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Hi all,
I designed a cantrip for one of my players who is running a knowledge cleric/druid that they envision to be a bit like Indiana Jones in Descent into Avernus. Thus the cantrip is designed to be like a modified whip shillelagh with less damage and more utility. It ends up being a bit like a weakened shillelagh with more range, a one turn mage hand with limited function, and a weak disarm battle maneuver (e.g., no damage) in one. While a player has to choose between these when they cast it, I wonder if it might be doing too much for a cantrip. What do y'all think? Any feedback positive or negative?
Here is a link to the spell: Sassafras's Whipper Snapper
Thanks for your time and thoughts!
I like it. If I may make a suggestion, this might make it simpler and more balanced. I hope you find it helpful. Please remember, this is just my opinion, I could be wrong.
You imbue a whip you are holding with magical energy. For the duration, the whip’s reach extends to 20-foot, and you may use your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage rolls made with it.
If you attack an object weighing 5 lbs. or less with the enchanted weapon, the whip wraps around the object, grabbing it and returning it to you. If the object is being worn or carried, it’s bearer must succeed at a strength saving throw to prevent this effect. You must transfer the object to a free hand before the beginning of their next turn, or the object is dropped.
If you use the enchanted weapon to make an attack against a secure object that a whip could wrap around, the whip grasps it tightly and maintans its grip on that object for 1 minute or until you uses a bonus action to yank it free.
* - (a bit of thin leather and a whip)
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Sorry for the delay in responding @IamSposta!
Thank you for the helpful feedback. I like what you've done here, as this does simplify the cantrip significantly. My only objection is that the version you suggest would allow the caster to grab a weapon or item from another individual, and in the same round place it in the caster's hand. This is different than every other disarm ability in the game that I know of, where said weapon would drop from their hand to the ground. This gives the opponent who was disarmed the chance to pick up their weapon on their turn, whereas by this language would be far more powerful, because the disarmed would be deprived of that option.
Otherwise I think I will incorporate much of what you recommend. Please, IamSposta and anyone else, let me know if you have any other suggestions!
Also, I think, if made it again, I would remove the disarm ability from the cantrip and instead make my player take the feat that gives battle maneuvers for the disarm ability. That way I would avoid the risk of an overly useful cantrip that takes the place of other, existing abilities.
No worries, we’re all a bit distracted lately what with the riots, looting, fires, global pandemic, murder hornets, etc.
I understand your concerns about my suggestions, but if you’ll observe I also suggested making it a 1st-level, 1-minute Concentration Spell. I think that balances it well enough. IMHO, the effect isn’t the issue, the Cantrip status was. But, like I said, just my opinion.
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You forgot a global economic depression!
Yeah, I just noticed it. I will think on the concentration and spell level changes. That restricts its use quite a bit, and the ability I modeled it after (shillelagh) does not use concentration. Since my player will not, in general, be using melee abilities (she won't get multiple attacks for instance) this might make its use undesirable in most situations. I understand the need for something like you suggest if it was designed for a wider audience who might try to power game this, however.
Again, I really appreciate you taking the time!
A 20 melee attack they can use their Spellcasting ability modifier for for a minute is no joke. Especially with the added utility too. I have several characters who would LOVE that spell. But if you want a Cantrip then make it a Cantrip. One of the biggest problems with it before was the confuzzled duration and needing an attack and a save for the same spell. Way too complicated for something they could do every turn as a Cantrip.
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Totally, the duration was entirely a mistake on my part. I am still navigating home brew on here, my apologies. It should have read instantaneous, one action, no duration. So, the caster would have to recast it every turn. I am seriously considering your recommendation though, don't get me wrong! This is it in its current iteration.
You imbue a whip you are holding with magical energy. As a part of this spell, the caster makes a melee spell attack with the whip; the whip’s reach extends to 20-foot, and you may use your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage rolls made with it.
On a successful attack against an object of 5 or less pounds that is not worn or carried, the whip wraps around the object, grabbing it and returning it to you. You must transfer the object to a free hand before the beginning of their next turn, or the object is dropped.
If you use the enchanted weapon to make an attack against a secure object that a whip could wrap around, the whip grasps it tightly and maintains its grip on that object for 1 minute or until you use a bonus action to yank it free.
If you use this spell to attack an object that is worn or carried, the person wearing or carrying the object must make a strength saving throw against the caster’s spell save DC. On a failed save, the object is dropped, falling directly to the down from where it was held.
* - (a bit of thin leather and a whip)I think that what I will end up doing if it play tests OP, is break it up into two spells. The first would be a cantrip that just does damage (so it is just whip shillelagh), and then having another 1st level spell that builds out the whip like a more powerful mage hand (can be used for disarming, climbing, and grabbing). In this way, I won't have to make my player having to choose between using their whip powerfully and being able to cast bless. I really have a dark place in my heart for OP homebrewing, so I would hate to fall into that trap in the pursuit of a cool signature spell for my player.