*Hello boys, I'm baaack. For those of you who care and weren't here, last night Kinsley turned one of Perdo's cats into a lycanthrope. She kind of adopted Perdo as her dad, (which Perdo has eventually with much frustration accepted after a long conversation with Kinsley) and he will be giving her "Human lessons."*
Krathian seems concerned about something and is staring at Q'ilbrith (they're communicating telepathically)
Perdo is teaching his new daughter standard table ettiquette
Steve is putting the finishing touches on a new character
*OmGersh, YES!*
Zylna was about to walk over to Perdo before Wolfe started playing.
V is blissfully outside, just barely able to her Wolfe's music.
After the song is over, Perdo's daughter looks really scared. *Teenage human girl with ginger hair, wearing one of Perdo's ponchos and a pair of baggy pants.*
Perdo waves Zylna over, "Hey Z, I need your help with something."
Zylna snaps out of being distracted and walks over. "Hey, Perdo! What is it you need help with?"
He hooks a thumb over at his 'daughter.' "She needs a name, and I'm not the most creative person in the world."
Zylna looks over at her. "Hello! I'm Zylna!" She waves as friendly as possible, then turned back to Perdo. "Do you know what her interests are?"
"Well up until last night, rubbing her face against my pantleg"
"Hmmm." Zylna took a second to think. "Rubbs? No....." She thought for a moment longer. "I got nothing, we're gonna need more info on what she likes. Where'd she come from, any how?"
"Well, she used to be one of my kittens ... until Kinsley changed her into a lycanthrope."
"...................." Zylna looked at the girl, then back to Perdo, then the girl, then Perdo again. "wat?"
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want a place to roleplay in your spare time? Here:Lord'sRestInn
Please don't hide your imperfections, if one part is beautiful, it all is.
*Yeah. I'm currently working on a new character for the tavern, but i want them to be good, so i'm spending a lot of time on them.*
*nice, who are they?*
*Well, i can't reveal much, but they're the first character i've made in a while that isn't made for combat, and more for a utility type thing.*
*intresting, to be honest, i never intended Galax to be for combat as well, though after seeing how many knives you could throw in one turn, how could I resist :)*
*Hello boys, I'm baaack. For those of you who care and weren't here, last night Kinsley turned one of Perdo's cats into a lycanthrope. She kind of adopted Perdo as her dad, (which Perdo has eventually with much frustration accepted after a long conversation with Kinsley) and he will be giving her "Human lessons."*
Krathian seems concerned about something and is staring at Q'ilbrith (they're communicating telepathically)
Perdo is teaching his new daughter standard table ettiquette
Steve is putting the finishing touches on a new character
*OmGersh, YES!*
Zylna was about to walk over to Perdo before Wolfe started playing.
V is blissfully outside, just barely able to her Wolfe's music.
After the song is over, Perdo's daughter looks really scared. *Teenage human girl with ginger hair, wearing one of Perdo's ponchos and a pair of baggy pants.*
Perdo waves Zylna over, "Hey Z, I need your help with something."
Zylna snaps out of being distracted and walks over. "Hey, Perdo! What is it you need help with?"
He hooks a thumb over at his 'daughter.' "She needs a name, and I'm not the most creative person in the world."
Zylna looks over at her. "Hello! I'm Zylna!" She waves as friendly as possible, then turned back to Perdo. "Do you know what her interests are?"
"Well up until last night, rubbing her face against my pantleg"
"Hmmm." Zylna took a second to think. "Rubbs? No....." She thought for a moment longer. "I got nothing, we're gonna need more info on what she likes. Where'd she come from, any how?"
"Well, she used to be one of my kittens ... until Kinsley changed her into a lycanthrope."
"...................." Zylna looked at the girl, then back to Perdo, then the girl, then Perdo again. "wat?"
*Yeah. I'm currently working on a new character for the tavern, but i want them to be good, so i'm spending a lot of time on them.*
*nice, who are they?*
*Well, i can't reveal much, but they're the first character i've made in a while that isn't made for combat, and more for a utility type thing.*
*intresting, to be honest, i never intended Galax to be for combat as well, though after seeing how many knives you could throw in one turn, how could I resist :)*
*How many do you think you can throw? And how exacty?*
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science] Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews! Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya! Characters (Outdated)
*Yeah. I'm currently working on a new character for the tavern, but i want them to be good, so i'm spending a lot of time on them.*
*nice, who are they?*
*Well, i can't reveal much, but they're the first character i've made in a while that isn't made for combat, and more for a utility type thing.*
*intresting, to be honest, i never intended Galax to be for combat as well, though after seeing how many knives you could throw in one turn, how could I resist :)*
*How many do you think you can throw? And how exacty?*
*me and my friends have estimated 20 by level 20, using extra attack, duel wielding, and action surge
*Yeah. I'm currently working on a new character for the tavern, but i want them to be good, so i'm spending a lot of time on them.*
*nice, who are they?*
*Well, i can't reveal much, but they're the first character i've made in a while that isn't made for combat, and more for a utility type thing.*
*intresting, to be honest, i never intended Galax to be for combat as well, though after seeing how many knives you could throw in one turn, how could I resist :)*
*How many do you think you can throw? And how exacty?*
*Extra attack?*
*I've found a homebrew class that gives you like 70 extra attacks, and nothing else*
*Yeah. I'm currently working on a new character for the tavern, but i want them to be good, so i'm spending a lot of time on them.*
*nice, who are they?*
*Well, i can't reveal much, but they're the first character i've made in a while that isn't made for combat, and more for a utility type thing.*
*intresting, to be honest, i never intended Galax to be for combat as well, though after seeing how many knives you could throw in one turn, how could I resist :)*
*How many do you think you can throw? And how exacty?*
*Extra attack?*
*I've found a homebrew class that gives you like 70 extra attacks, and nothing else*
*Yeah. I'm currently working on a new character for the tavern, but i want them to be good, so i'm spending a lot of time on them.*
*nice, who are they?*
*Well, i can't reveal much, but they're the first character i've made in a while that isn't made for combat, and more for a utility type thing.*
*intresting, to be honest, i never intended Galax to be for combat as well, though after seeing how many knives you could throw in one turn, how could I resist :)*
*How many do you think you can throw? And how exacty?*
*Extra attack?*
*I've found a homebrew class that gives you like 70 extra attacks, and nothing else*
*what is the homebrew class?*
*Its called the extra attacker, its an april fools class*
*Yeah. I'm currently working on a new character for the tavern, but i want them to be good, so i'm spending a lot of time on them.*
*nice, who are they?*
*Well, i can't reveal much, but they're the first character i've made in a while that isn't made for combat, and more for a utility type thing.*
*intresting, to be honest, i never intended Galax to be for combat as well, though after seeing how many knives you could throw in one turn, how could I resist :)*
*How many do you think you can throw? And how exacty?*
*me and my friends have estimated 20 by level 20, using extra attack, duel wielding, and action surge
*Thats incorrect. As the rules of interact with an item. You can start a turn holding 2, throwing both with an attack action means you have to use your 1 free interact with an item to take out 1 more, and then you could throw that. After that, it costs a full action to take a new dagger out*
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science] Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews! Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya! Characters (Outdated)
*Yeah. I'm currently working on a new character for the tavern, but i want them to be good, so i'm spending a lot of time on them.*
*nice, who are they?*
*Well, i can't reveal much, but they're the first character i've made in a while that isn't made for combat, and more for a utility type thing.*
*intresting, to be honest, i never intended Galax to be for combat as well, though after seeing how many knives you could throw in one turn, how could I resist :)*
*How many do you think you can throw? And how exacty?*
*me and my friends have estimated 20 by level 20, using extra attack, duel wielding, and action surge
*Thats incorrect. As the rules of interact with an item. You can start a turn holding 2, throwing both with an attack action means you have to use your 1 free interact with an item to take out 1 more, and then you could throw that. After that, it costs a full action to take a new dagger out*
*i belive that is included in the attack action, as with crossbows, you can still use interact with an object, its also up to the dm to decide if I am able to do that, and mine helped me calculate the number*
*Yeah. I'm currently working on a new character for the tavern, but i want them to be good, so i'm spending a lot of time on them.*
*nice, who are they?*
*Well, i can't reveal much, but they're the first character i've made in a while that isn't made for combat, and more for a utility type thing.*
*intresting, to be honest, i never intended Galax to be for combat as well, though after seeing how many knives you could throw in one turn, how could I resist :)*
*How many do you think you can throw? And how exacty?*
*me and my friends have estimated 20 by level 20, using extra attack, duel wielding, and action surge
*Thats incorrect. As the rules of interact with an item. You can start a turn holding 2, throwing both with an attack action means you have to use your 1 free interact with an item to take out 1 more, and then you could throw that. After that, it costs a full action to take a new dagger out*
*i belive that is included in the attack action, as with crossbows, you can still use interact with an object, its also up to the dm to decide if I am able to do that, and mine helped me calculate the number*
*Yes. At the table of your games, the DM can change the ruling. However, we try to stick to RAW combat rules on the thread. For the RAW ruling, it allows you to draw a single weapon as part of the attack action. Not 1 weapon per attack*
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science] Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews! Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya! Characters (Outdated)
*Yeah. I'm currently working on a new character for the tavern, but i want them to be good, so i'm spending a lot of time on them.*
*nice, who are they?*
*Well, i can't reveal much, but they're the first character i've made in a while that isn't made for combat, and more for a utility type thing.*
*intresting, to be honest, i never intended Galax to be for combat as well, though after seeing how many knives you could throw in one turn, how could I resist :)*
*How many do you think you can throw? And how exacty?*
*me and my friends have estimated 20 by level 20, using extra attack, duel wielding, and action surge
*Thats incorrect. As the rules of interact with an item. You can start a turn holding 2, throwing both with an attack action means you have to use your 1 free interact with an item to take out 1 more, and then you could throw that. After that, it costs a full action to take a new dagger out*
*i belive that is included in the attack action, as with crossbows, you can still use interact with an object, its also up to the dm to decide if I am able to do that, and mine helped me calculate the number*
*Yes. At the table of your games, the DM can change the ruling. However, we try to stick to RAW combat rules on the thread. For the RAW ruling, it allows you to draw a single weapon as part of the attack action. Not 1 weapon per attack*
*also the duel wielder feat, so then 4 knives per turn, I can live with that*
*Yeah. I'm currently working on a new character for the tavern, but i want them to be good, so i'm spending a lot of time on them.*
*nice, who are they?*
*Well, i can't reveal much, but they're the first character i've made in a while that isn't made for combat, and more for a utility type thing.*
*intresting, to be honest, i never intended Galax to be for combat as well, though after seeing how many knives you could throw in one turn, how could I resist :)*
*How many do you think you can throw? And how exacty?*
*me and my friends have estimated 20 by level 20, using extra attack, duel wielding, and action surge
*Thats incorrect. As the rules of interact with an item. You can start a turn holding 2, throwing both with an attack action means you have to use your 1 free interact with an item to take out 1 more, and then you could throw that. After that, it costs a full action to take a new dagger out*
*i belive that is included in the attack action, as with crossbows, you can still use interact with an object, its also up to the dm to decide if I am able to do that, and mine helped me calculate the number*
*Yes. At the table of your games, the DM can change the ruling. However, we try to stick to RAW combat rules on the thread. For the RAW ruling, it allows you to draw a single weapon as part of the attack action. Not 1 weapon per attack*
*also the duel wielder feat, so then 4 knives per turn, I can live with that*
*Thats correct. Dual wielder is fun*
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science] Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews! Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya! Characters (Outdated)
*Yeah. I'm currently working on a new character for the tavern, but i want them to be good, so i'm spending a lot of time on them.*
*nice, who are they?*
*Well, i can't reveal much, but they're the first character i've made in a while that isn't made for combat, and more for a utility type thing.*
*intresting, to be honest, i never intended Galax to be for combat as well, though after seeing how many knives you could throw in one turn, how could I resist :)*
*How many do you think you can throw? And how exacty?*
*me and my friends have estimated 20 by level 20, using extra attack, duel wielding, and action surge
*Thats incorrect. As the rules of interact with an item. You can start a turn holding 2, throwing both with an attack action means you have to use your 1 free interact with an item to take out 1 more, and then you could throw that. After that, it costs a full action to take a new dagger out*
*i belive that is included in the attack action, as with crossbows, you can still use interact with an object, its also up to the dm to decide if I am able to do that, and mine helped me calculate the number*
*Yes. At the table of your games, the DM can change the ruling. However, we try to stick to RAW combat rules on the thread. For the RAW ruling, it allows you to draw a single weapon as part of the attack action. Not 1 weapon per attack*
*also the duel wielder feat, so then 4 knives per turn, I can live with that*
*Yeah. I'm currently working on a new character for the tavern, but i want them to be good, so i'm spending a lot of time on them.*
*nice, who are they?*
*Well, i can't reveal much, but they're the first character i've made in a while that isn't made for combat, and more for a utility type thing.*
*intresting, to be honest, i never intended Galax to be for combat as well, though after seeing how many knives you could throw in one turn, how could I resist :)*
*How many do you think you can throw? And how exacty?*
*me and my friends have estimated 20 by level 20, using extra attack, duel wielding, and action surge
*Thats incorrect. As the rules of interact with an item. You can start a turn holding 2, throwing both with an attack action means you have to use your 1 free interact with an item to take out 1 more, and then you could throw that. After that, it costs a full action to take a new dagger out*
*i belive that is included in the attack action, as with crossbows, you can still use interact with an object, its also up to the dm to decide if I am able to do that, and mine helped me calculate the number*
*Yes. At the table of your games, the DM can change the ruling. However, we try to stick to RAW combat rules on the thread. For the RAW ruling, it allows you to draw a single weapon as part of the attack action. Not 1 weapon per attack*
*also the duel wielder feat, so then 4 knives per turn, I can live with that*
*Thats correct. Dual wielder is fun*
*and sharp shooter*
*And mobile*
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science] Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews! Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya! Characters (Outdated)
*Yeah. I'm currently working on a new character for the tavern, but i want them to be good, so i'm spending a lot of time on them.*
*nice, who are they?*
*Well, i can't reveal much, but they're the first character i've made in a while that isn't made for combat, and more for a utility type thing.*
*intresting, to be honest, i never intended Galax to be for combat as well, though after seeing how many knives you could throw in one turn, how could I resist :)*
*How many do you think you can throw? And how exacty?*
*me and my friends have estimated 20 by level 20, using extra attack, duel wielding, and action surge
*Thats incorrect. As the rules of interact with an item. You can start a turn holding 2, throwing both with an attack action means you have to use your 1 free interact with an item to take out 1 more, and then you could throw that. After that, it costs a full action to take a new dagger out*
*i belive that is included in the attack action, as with crossbows, you can still use interact with an object, its also up to the dm to decide if I am able to do that, and mine helped me calculate the number*
*Yes. At the table of your games, the DM can change the ruling. However, we try to stick to RAW combat rules on the thread. For the RAW ruling, it allows you to draw a single weapon as part of the attack action. Not 1 weapon per attack*
*also the duel wielder feat, so then 4 knives per turn, I can live with that*
*Yeah. I'm currently working on a new character for the tavern, but i want them to be good, so i'm spending a lot of time on them.*
*nice, who are they?*
*Well, i can't reveal much, but they're the first character i've made in a while that isn't made for combat, and more for a utility type thing.*
*intresting, to be honest, i never intended Galax to be for combat as well, though after seeing how many knives you could throw in one turn, how could I resist :)*
*How many do you think you can throw? And how exacty?*
*me and my friends have estimated 20 by level 20, using extra attack, duel wielding, and action surge
*Thats incorrect. As the rules of interact with an item. You can start a turn holding 2, throwing both with an attack action means you have to use your 1 free interact with an item to take out 1 more, and then you could throw that. After that, it costs a full action to take a new dagger out*
*i belive that is included in the attack action, as with crossbows, you can still use interact with an object, its also up to the dm to decide if I am able to do that, and mine helped me calculate the number*
*Yes. At the table of your games, the DM can change the ruling. However, we try to stick to RAW combat rules on the thread. For the RAW ruling, it allows you to draw a single weapon as part of the attack action. Not 1 weapon per attack*
*also the duel wielder feat, so then 4 knives per turn, I can live with that*
*Thats correct. Dual wielder is fun*
*and sharp shooter*
*And mobile*
*And alert*
*its only 8th level, and im still creating the character sheet as I have the books but not the stuff on dnd beyond so it takes awhile*
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science] Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews! Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya! Characters (Outdated)
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"...................." Zylna looked at the girl, then back to Perdo, then the girl, then Perdo again. "wat?"
Want a place to roleplay in your spare time? Here: Lord's Rest Inn
Please don't hide your imperfections, if one part is beautiful, it all is.
I don't like rp-heavy games, I LOVE them.
*intresting, to be honest, i never intended Galax to be for combat as well, though after seeing how many knives you could throw in one turn, how could I resist :)*
the biggest screwup since the screw was invented
"whos the new guy?"
the biggest screwup since the screw was invented
*How many do you think you can throw? And how exacty?*
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN
Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG
Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science]
Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews!
Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya!
Characters (Outdated)
*me and my friends have estimated 20 by level 20, using extra attack, duel wielding, and action surge
the biggest screwup since the screw was invented
*Extra attack?*
*I've found a homebrew class that gives you like 70 extra attacks, and nothing else*
I play a miriad of characters at the lord's rest inn
Two things are infinite: The universe, and human stupidity; and I'm not so sure about the universe.
Scifi horror is quite the trip :) Comics and a story
#FreeDND
*what is the homebrew class?*
the biggest screwup since the screw was invented
*Its called the extra attacker, its an april fools class*
I play a miriad of characters at the lord's rest inn
Two things are infinite: The universe, and human stupidity; and I'm not so sure about the universe.
Scifi horror is quite the trip :) Comics and a story
#FreeDND
*Thats incorrect. As the rules of interact with an item. You can start a turn holding 2, throwing both with an attack action means you have to use your 1 free interact with an item to take out 1 more, and then you could throw that. After that, it costs a full action to take a new dagger out*
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN
Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG
Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science]
Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews!
Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya!
Characters (Outdated)
*Heres the link: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Multiattacker_(5e_Class)*
I play a miriad of characters at the lord's rest inn
Two things are infinite: The universe, and human stupidity; and I'm not so sure about the universe.
Scifi horror is quite the trip :) Comics and a story
#FreeDND
*i belive that is included in the attack action, as with crossbows, you can still use interact with an object, its also up to the dm to decide if I am able to do that, and mine helped me calculate the number*
the biggest screwup since the screw was invented
*Yes. At the table of your games, the DM can change the ruling. However, we try to stick to RAW combat rules on the thread. For the RAW ruling, it allows you to draw a single weapon as part of the attack action. Not 1 weapon per attack*
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN
Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG
Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science]
Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews!
Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya!
Characters (Outdated)
*also the duel wielder feat, so then 4 knives per turn, I can live with that*
the biggest screwup since the screw was invented
*Thats correct. Dual wielder is fun*
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN
Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG
Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science]
Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews!
Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya!
Characters (Outdated)
*and sharp shooter*
the biggest screwup since the screw was invented
*And mobile*
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN
Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG
Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science]
Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews!
Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya!
Characters (Outdated)
*And alert*
I play a miriad of characters at the lord's rest inn
Two things are infinite: The universe, and human stupidity; and I'm not so sure about the universe.
Scifi horror is quite the trip :) Comics and a story
#FreeDND
*its only 8th level, and im still creating the character sheet as I have the books but not the stuff on dnd beyond so it takes awhile*
the biggest screwup since the screw was invented
*slow*
the biggest screwup since the screw was invented
*Yup*
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN
Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG
Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science]
Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews!
Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya!
Characters (Outdated)