Just finished listening to the new Playtest video, and was laughing my hind end off because of the bit at the end around conjurations and summonings.
For several "in-world" reasons, chiefly the notion that summoning is always a ritual and is always doing something to another being that is oppositional to their will, summoning on Wyrlde is a problem.
In addition, all conjurations became "evocations", for similar reasons. Much of this has to do with the way that Rangers and Shamans occupy different aspects of Druids, and with the nature of the shaman's use of spirit creatures and the way that Spirits of the World operate.
And I laughed because while I haven't looked yet, the underlying philosophy and approach is exactly what I did with Shaman's and the world spirits in my setting. Shaman's are going to be a very interesting class now, lol.
That’s funny. I always thought of it that “summoning” involved creatures whereas “conjuring” involved objects. Like, you “summon” a wolf to attack your foes, but you “conjure” a spectral weapon or shield or whatever.
That's how I've always done it in the past, myself -- you Evoke Energy, Conjure Objects, Summon Beings. They opted to go a different way.
WHile I understand the purpose of Spell Schools, I've never really liked them, lol. Or, more accurately, I liked the way they opted to use some very traditional things to create them, but they've never been really clear about them.
One of the spell schools had to go -- not only is 8 a "bad number" (associated with evil and bad luck and stuff) in world, there are only 7 Planes and each plane has a connection to a school. I am still sorta torn between Conjuration or Evocation. Part of it is that I have different Affinities as part of the Spell point system, and I would rather use those:
Arcane: Wizard type magic.
Divine: Powers That Be magic.
Eldritch: Weird, scary magic.
Mystical: Magic around the body, the person.
Primal: Nature magic.
I dunno. We'll see. I bought myself until Christmas Eve, lol.
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Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Wait, they’re getting rid of one of the 8 schools?!?!? Tehfawk?!? Oh, they’re gonna hear about that in feedback. That’s one of those “not D&D anymore” changes.
Wait, they’re getting rid of one of the 8 schools?!?!? Tehfawk?!? Oh, they’re gonna hear about that in feedback. That’s one of those “not D&D anymore” changes.
Oh no, no -- THEY aren't, lol.
I did. For my game world.
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Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Wait, they’re getting rid of one of the 8 schools?!?!?
Conjuration was too woke and got defunded.
No no -- it was Necromancy that was too discriminatory and got canceled.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Wait, they’re getting rid of one of the 8 schools?!?!? Tehfawk?!? Oh, they’re gonna hear about that in feedback. That’s one of those “not D&D anymore” changes.
Oh no, no -- THEY aren't, lol.
I did. For my game world.
Ahh, okay. You do whatever you want with your world.
That’s funny. I always thought of it that “summoning” involved creatures whereas “conjuring” involved objects. Like, you “summon” a wolf to attack your foes, but you “conjure” a spectral weapon or shield or whatever.
I basically see it the same way. A summons is really a call/request. Conjure is just a fancy way to say you're procuring something.
Wait, they’re getting rid of one of the 8 schools?!?!?
Conjuration was too woke and got defunded.
No no -- it was Necromancy that was too discriminatory and got canceled.
🙄
I remind that I do DEI work daily, lol.
I've got hundreds of these...
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Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
And I laughed because while I haven't looked yet, the underlying philosophy and approach is exactly what I did with Shaman's and the world spirits in my setting. Shaman's are going to be a very interesting class now, lol.
Man, I remember catching some Hades for using the word Shaman from someone.... f
Just finished listening to the new Playtest video, and was laughing my hind end off because of the bit at the end around conjurations and summonings.
For several "in-world" reasons, chiefly the notion that summoning is always a ritual and is always doing something to another being that is oppositional to their will, summoning on Wyrlde is a problem.
In addition, all conjurations became "evocations", for similar reasons. Much of this has to do with the way that Rangers and Shamans occupy different aspects of Druids, and with the nature of the shaman's use of spirit creatures and the way that Spirits of the World operate.
And I laughed because while I haven't looked yet, the underlying philosophy and approach is exactly what I did with Shaman's and the world spirits in my setting. Shaman's are going to be a very interesting class now, lol.
That’s funny. I always thought of it that “summoning” involved creatures whereas “conjuring” involved objects. Like, you “summon” a wolf to attack your foes, but you “conjure” a spectral weapon or shield or whatever.
And I laughed because while I haven't looked yet, the underlying philosophy and approach is exactly what I did with Shaman's and the world spirits in my setting. Shaman's are going to be a very interesting class now, lol.
Man, I remember catching some Hades for using the word Shaman from someone.... f
Just finished listening to the new Playtest video, and was laughing my hind end off because of the bit at the end around conjurations and summonings.
For several "in-world" reasons, chiefly the notion that summoning is always a ritual and is always doing something to another being that is oppositional to their will, summoning on Wyrlde is a problem.
In addition, all conjurations became "evocations", for similar reasons. Much of this has to do with the way that Rangers and Shamans occupy different aspects of Druids, and with the nature of the shaman's use of spirit creatures and the way that Spirits of the World operate.
And I laughed because while I haven't looked yet, the underlying philosophy and approach is exactly what I did with Shaman's and the world spirits in my setting. Shaman's are going to be a very interesting class now, lol.
That’s funny. I always thought of it that “summoning” involved creatures whereas “conjuring” involved objects. Like, you “summon” a wolf to attack your foes, but you “conjure” a spectral weapon or shield or whatever.
I am of the same mind.
I am catching it hard from my co-workers, but my layers are adamant, and I don't game with my co-workers, lol.
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Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Each is different, and they are markedly different since they are bringing the SUmmon X spells from Tasha's into the 2024 PHB.
CONJURE MINOR ELEMENTALS Level 4 Conjuration (Druid, Wizard) Casting Time: Action Range: Self (15-foot radius) Components: V, S Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes You summon elemental spirits that a flit around you for the duration. Until the spell ends, any attack you make deals an extra 2d8 damage when you hit a creature within 15 feet of you. This damage is Bludgeoning, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack). In addition, the ground within 15 feet of you is Difficult Terrain for your enemies. At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of level 5 or higher, the damage increases by 2d8 and the range of Difficult Terrain increases by 5 feet for each slot level above 4.
All of them are much like this.
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Each is different, and they are markedly different since they are bringing the SUmmon X spells from Tasha's into the 2024 PHB.
CONJURE MINOR ELEMENTALS Level 4 Conjuration (Druid, Wizard) Casting Time: Action Range: Self (15-foot radius) Components: V, S Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes You summon elemental spirits that a flit around you for the duration. Until the spell ends, any attack you make deals an extra 2d8 damage when you hit a creature within 15 feet of you. This damage is Bludgeoning, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack). In addition, the ground within 15 feet of you is Difficult Terrain for your enemies. At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of level 5 or higher, the damage increases by 2d8 and the range of Difficult Terrain increases by 5 feet for each slot level above 4.
All of them are much like this.
Well, kinda. Conjure minor elementals is a bit of an outlier, because it acts more like spirit shroud. Most of the other spells are more basic AoEs that you can place where you like, except you can move them 30 feet on your turn.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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And I laughed because while I haven't looked yet, the underlying philosophy and approach is exactly what I did with Shaman's and the world spirits in my setting. Shaman's are going to be a very interesting class now, lol.
Man, I remember catching some Hades for using the word Shaman from someone.... f
I am catching it hard from my co-workers, but my layers are adamant, and I don't game with my co-workers, lol.
To be very clear, I was jesting. :)
Shaman, ironically, is one of my favorite characters in Alpha Flight. (Second to Snowbird, who I may have had an unhealthy crush on in my youth)... Uncanny X-Men #121 was one of the first comics I ever got... and it was Alpha Flight and I was hooked.
I got vengeance, though: I asked them to find an archetypal word known colloquially that provides the same sense, and said I would change it if they could.
I got the idea from a challenge dropped in my lap I still haven’t solved around the concept of Women’s Health (whole health, not merely ob/gyn) needing a non-gendered term that works in Farsi, Spanish, English, and Arabic.
sigh.
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Each is different, and they are markedly different since they are bringing the SUmmon X spells from Tasha's into the 2024 PHB.
CONJURE MINOR ELEMENTALS Level 4 Conjuration (Druid, Wizard) Casting Time: Action Range: Self (15-foot radius) Components: V, S Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes You summon elemental spirits that a flit around you for the duration. Until the spell ends, any attack you make deals an extra 2d8 damage when you hit a creature within 15 feet of you. This damage is Bludgeoning, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack). In addition, the ground within 15 feet of you is Difficult Terrain for your enemies. At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of level 5 or higher, the damage increases by 2d8 and the range of Difficult Terrain increases by 5 feet for each slot level above 4.
All of them are much like this.
That's extremely weird. I appreciate a weird design as much as the next girl (much more, in fact), but I don't think this is gonna fly with players.
Time to type up a few thoughts on summoning spells!!
So, what do players want out of a summoning spell? I think it varies a little, but always at least one of the following: 1) They want a meat shield. A summon can get hit and die and it's fine because it's just a summon. 2) They want more action economy. A summon is an ally, and the more allies you have, the better. 3) They want to play with DM toys. Similar to shapeshifting, it's fun to use the enemy's weapons against them. 4) They want to evoke a particular fantasy. My mind goes to villains, like Rita Repulsa, but I understand there are protagonist characters who do this sort of thing too.
I'm not sure which one is the most common. I think (4) is the least common. If you were trying to target just one of these, it would result in some interesting designs: 1) You could just put temporary HP on the caster. Or you could rework the Wall spells. If you don't give the summon HP, though, then players who want (1) don't get it. 2) You could slap an additional action on, like Haste. Or you could restrict enemy action, perhaps say the summon is grappling them or something. If it doesn't affect the action economy, though, then (2) fans are out of luck. 3) You could have a carefully balanced list of monsters that can be used as enemies and summons. Or you could do the same but with action-economy effects: Fire Elemental = on your turn, someone takes fire damage, for example. It would mean that these monsters could only be used in tandem with other monsters, never solo, but that's not the end of the world. But if your summoning spell doesn't cross the border into DM territory, then you're failing the players who want (3). 4) Hard to mess this one up. But easier in a game that doesn't rely so much on specific monster mechanics. When you're trying to continually sell books, it's not good enough to just have a list of 10 conditions and have some monsters impose those conditions on attacks and others do it on saves with varying durations. You need to keep making more. This monster doesn't make you go to sleep, it sends your spirit into the realm of dreams! Etc. And the more of those you make, the harder it is to suspend disbelief regarding summons: An elemental-summoning spell needs to be able to replicate that fancy new elemental that gives targets an unnamed condition where they take fire damage every time they move more than 5ft or whatever, otherwise it doesn't feel like an elemental-summoning spell.
Anyway, the new thing you described kinda fails on all points. (The difficult terrain gestures at (2), but I don't think it means much.) Here's a rough draft of one that would hit them all: You summon an elemental whose form is sustained by your magic. It has HP equal to (some calculation based on the caster) and AC (a flat number). It has all the actions from an elemental monster stat block of your choosing, but its damage is (calculation) instead. (Caveat about legendary monsters or something.)
I don't love it, but it's certainly easier than trying to always make your monster lists balanced for player use.
Well, the Tasha’s stuff is all Summoning, and that is all going to be in the 2024 PHB — which is why they changed these.
those will meet one, two, and three. However…
yeah, folks ain’t happy they can’t summon eight extra bodies to get in the way. Just the one now.
four….
I got nothin.
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To clarify my opinion, (1) and (2) kind of make the game worse, and (3) has the potential to, but with an expert hand behind the design wheel, doesn't have to.
(1) steps on the toes of characters whose "thing" is to take hits, as well as those who want to heal. It makes no sense to play a front-line bruiser when it's possible to put up a big inflatable dragon that blocks off your archers from danger and just shoot instead. If spell slots were really limited, this might change, but we've been over this a thousand times -- it ain't happening.
(2) similarly lets casters be the preeminent front-line experts. Big groups of bodies deal near-guaranteed chip damage to singular targets and can handle groups. Singular bruisers still deal damage off-turn and have infinite disjoint. There's nothing you can do to make this fair, but the closest thing I've seen is with a couple of fiend-summoning spells, where it's possible for the summons to turn against the caster. Now, since it's concentration-based, it's pretty trivial to build in a way that makes it practically impossible for this ever to occur, but the idea is nice. Though, without a way to reestablish control, it probably lends itself pretty strongly to death spirals.
I really, really love when you can bring a character back into the story. I would prefer all the summoning spells to be contextually obtained as quest rewards or something like that. No Summon Elemental, but you could get Summon Watcher Johannes Silvereye, and the NPC you saved in an earlier mission would show up and help you out. Maybe it could simply be Summon Humanoid Spirit for NPCs, Summon Nature Spirit for animals and fairies and whatnot, etc, and they always summon someone specific that have given you the magical permission to summon them, whatever way that manifests in your setting (true names, magic amulets, downloading their spirit, etc).
To clarify my opinion, (1) and (2) kind of make the game worse, and (3) has the potential to, but with an expert hand behind the design wheel, doesn't have to.
(1) steps on the toes of characters whose "thing" is to take hits, as well as those who want to heal. It makes no sense to play a front-line bruiser when it's possible to put up a big inflatable dragon that blocks off your archers from danger and just shoot instead. If spell slots were really limited, this might change, but we've been over this a thousand times -- it ain't happening.
(2) similarly lets casters be the preeminent front-line experts. Big groups of bodies deal near-guaranteed chip damage to singular targets and can handle groups. Singular bruisers still deal damage off-turn and have infinite disjoint. There's nothing you can do to make this fair, but the closest thing I've seen is with a couple of fiend-summoning spells, where it's possible for the summons to turn against the caster. Now, since it's concentration-based, it's pretty trivial to build in a way that makes it practically impossible for this ever to occur, but the idea is nice. Though, without a way to reestablish control, it probably lends itself pretty strongly to death spirals.
I really, really love when you can bring a character back into the story. I would prefer all the summoning spells to be contextually obtained as quest rewards or something like that. No Summon Elemental, but you could get Summon Watcher Johannes Silvereye, and the NPC you saved in an earlier mission would show up and help you out. Maybe it could simply be Summon Humanoid Spirit for NPCs, Summon Nature Spirit for animals and fairies and whatnot, etc, and they always summon someone specific that have given you the magical permission to summon them, whatever way that manifests in your setting (true names, magic amulets, downloading their spirit, etc).
Not much in the way of argument from me.
The rules I have set up for my new world, summoning/conjuring of all kinds does not immediately grant the caster any sort of control over the subject. Doesn't matter if it is an insect, beast, elemental, or Arch-fiend, they can all be summoned, but there is noting that forces them to obey. Tis is a key point, since two things apply: 1 - if they summon a powerful sentient being, then they have to give up their true name to do (meaning they can now be summoned by that being); 2 --n If they make a deal and succeed, they are still going to be able to be summoned themselves, and if there was a rule about obeying, I would have to strip agency from the PC.
Then there's the whole ting about it being really icky to do someone, though perhaps the insect and animal stuff might be "ok". Plus, I have a couple players who have flags on that play.
Not saying that's how it should be for anyone else, just pointing out the stuff for me, because it feeds into this. The tasha stuff calls into being a corporeal spirit, the new conjures (UA) call forth an incorporeal spirit. The currentConjures (2014 PHB) allow people to summon one to eight physical creatures -- so in reality, they are kinda addressing your concerns, even though they do still allow the single being thing.
i do like your idea of a "summon particular person". I think I will add it in, but the reason that this all works better for me is that I have a class that is explicitly structured to be the kind of people who deal in the spirits of the world. The whole point of their archetype is that they are supposed to have these beings do stuff for them and they aren't intended to be all that hot on the physical side of things (all my classes are MAD, and they are Wisdom, Perception, and Charisma -- but as a spell casting class, they also have Mana).
The world has powerful spirit beings that are able to be encountered (Dryads, Nymphs, Woads, etc) and this class deals with them, but I also have things that are very much akin to the Loa and the Numen and these spells are perfect for that. I am kinda upset that I have to take them away from other classes, lol.
in a regular game, this change will make our lives immensely easier as DMs, lol. So I am very much for that -- combat can already slog and adding in a dozen small extra critters is just a pain in the ass.
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I'm in love with the idea that summoning a creature means that same creature can summon YOU. It's a little tricky in a team game, but wow that's so cool.
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That's how I've always done it in the past, myself -- you Evoke Energy, Conjure Objects, Summon Beings. They opted to go a different way.
WHile I understand the purpose of Spell Schools, I've never really liked them, lol. Or, more accurately, I liked the way they opted to use some very traditional things to create them, but they've never been really clear about them.
One of the spell schools had to go -- not only is 8 a "bad number" (associated with evil and bad luck and stuff) in world, there are only 7 Planes and each plane has a connection to a school. I am still sorta torn between Conjuration or Evocation. Part of it is that I have different Affinities as part of the Spell point system, and I would rather use those:
I dunno. We'll see. I bought myself until Christmas Eve, lol.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Wait, they’re getting rid of one of the 8 schools?!?!? Tehfawk?!? Oh, they’re gonna hear about that in feedback. That’s one of those “not D&D anymore” changes.
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Oh no, no -- THEY aren't, lol.
I did. For my game world.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Conjuration was too woke and got defunded.
No no -- it was Necromancy that was too discriminatory and got canceled.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
🙄
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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Ahh, okay. You do whatever you want with your world.
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I basically see it the same way. A summons is really a call/request. Conjure is just a fancy way to say you're procuring something.
I remind that I do DEI work daily, lol.
I've got hundreds of these...
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Man, I remember catching some Hades for using the word Shaman from someone.... f
I am of the same mind.
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I am catching it hard from my co-workers, but my layers are adamant, and I don't game with my co-workers, lol.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
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An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Oh, I like the new Conjure X spells.
Each is different, and they are markedly different since they are bringing the SUmmon X spells from Tasha's into the 2024 PHB.
CONJURE MINOR ELEMENTALS
Level 4 Conjuration (Druid, Wizard)
Casting Time: Action
Range: Self (15-foot radius)
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes
You summon elemental spirits that a flit around you for the duration. Until the spell ends, any attack you make deals an extra 2d8 damage when you hit a creature within 15 feet of you. This damage is Bludgeoning, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack). In addition, the ground within 15 feet of you is Difficult Terrain for your enemies.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of level 5 or higher, the damage increases by 2d8 and the range of Difficult Terrain increases by 5 feet for each slot level above 4.
All of them are much like this.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
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An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
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Well, kinda. Conjure minor elementals is a bit of an outlier, because it acts more like spirit shroud. Most of the other spells are more basic AoEs that you can place where you like, except you can move them 30 feet on your turn.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
To be very clear, I was jesting. :)
Shaman, ironically, is one of my favorite characters in Alpha Flight. (Second to Snowbird, who I may have had an unhealthy crush on in my youth)... Uncanny X-Men #121 was one of the first comics I ever got... and it was Alpha Flight and I was hooked.

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Sadly, I wasn’t.
I got vengeance, though: I asked them to find an archetypal word known colloquially that provides the same sense, and said I would change it if they could.
I got the idea from a challenge dropped in my lap I still haven’t solved around the concept of Women’s Health (whole health, not merely ob/gyn) needing a non-gendered term that works in Farsi, Spanish, English, and Arabic.
sigh.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
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Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
That's extremely weird. I appreciate a weird design as much as the next girl (much more, in fact), but I don't think this is gonna fly with players.
Time to type up a few thoughts on summoning spells!!
So, what do players want out of a summoning spell? I think it varies a little, but always at least one of the following:
1) They want a meat shield. A summon can get hit and die and it's fine because it's just a summon.
2) They want more action economy. A summon is an ally, and the more allies you have, the better.
3) They want to play with DM toys. Similar to shapeshifting, it's fun to use the enemy's weapons against them.
4) They want to evoke a particular fantasy. My mind goes to villains, like Rita Repulsa, but I understand there are protagonist characters who do this sort of thing too.
I'm not sure which one is the most common. I think (4) is the least common. If you were trying to target just one of these, it would result in some interesting designs:
1) You could just put temporary HP on the caster. Or you could rework the Wall spells. If you don't give the summon HP, though, then players who want (1) don't get it.
2) You could slap an additional action on, like Haste. Or you could restrict enemy action, perhaps say the summon is grappling them or something. If it doesn't affect the action economy, though, then (2) fans are out of luck.
3) You could have a carefully balanced list of monsters that can be used as enemies and summons. Or you could do the same but with action-economy effects: Fire Elemental = on your turn, someone takes fire damage, for example. It would mean that these monsters could only be used in tandem with other monsters, never solo, but that's not the end of the world. But if your summoning spell doesn't cross the border into DM territory, then you're failing the players who want (3).
4) Hard to mess this one up. But easier in a game that doesn't rely so much on specific monster mechanics. When you're trying to continually sell books, it's not good enough to just have a list of 10 conditions and have some monsters impose those conditions on attacks and others do it on saves with varying durations. You need to keep making more. This monster doesn't make you go to sleep, it sends your spirit into the realm of dreams! Etc. And the more of those you make, the harder it is to suspend disbelief regarding summons: An elemental-summoning spell needs to be able to replicate that fancy new elemental that gives targets an unnamed condition where they take fire damage every time they move more than 5ft or whatever, otherwise it doesn't feel like an elemental-summoning spell.
Anyway, the new thing you described kinda fails on all points. (The difficult terrain gestures at (2), but I don't think it means much.) Here's a rough draft of one that would hit them all:
You summon an elemental whose form is sustained by your magic. It has HP equal to (some calculation based on the caster) and AC (a flat number). It has all the actions from an elemental monster stat block of your choosing, but its damage is (calculation) instead. (Caveat about legendary monsters or something.)
I don't love it, but it's certainly easier than trying to always make your monster lists balanced for player use.
Well, the Tasha’s stuff is all Summoning, and that is all going to be in the 2024 PHB — which is why they changed these.
those will meet one, two, and three. However…
yeah, folks ain’t happy they can’t summon eight extra bodies to get in the way. Just the one now.
four….
I got nothin.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
To clarify my opinion, (1) and (2) kind of make the game worse, and (3) has the potential to, but with an expert hand behind the design wheel, doesn't have to.
(1) steps on the toes of characters whose "thing" is to take hits, as well as those who want to heal. It makes no sense to play a front-line bruiser when it's possible to put up a big inflatable dragon that blocks off your archers from danger and just shoot instead. If spell slots were really limited, this might change, but we've been over this a thousand times -- it ain't happening.
(2) similarly lets casters be the preeminent front-line experts. Big groups of bodies deal near-guaranteed chip damage to singular targets and can handle groups. Singular bruisers still deal damage off-turn and have infinite disjoint. There's nothing you can do to make this fair, but the closest thing I've seen is with a couple of fiend-summoning spells, where it's possible for the summons to turn against the caster. Now, since it's concentration-based, it's pretty trivial to build in a way that makes it practically impossible for this ever to occur, but the idea is nice. Though, without a way to reestablish control, it probably lends itself pretty strongly to death spirals.
I really, really love when you can bring a character back into the story. I would prefer all the summoning spells to be contextually obtained as quest rewards or something like that. No Summon Elemental, but you could get Summon Watcher Johannes Silvereye, and the NPC you saved in an earlier mission would show up and help you out. Maybe it could simply be Summon Humanoid Spirit for NPCs, Summon Nature Spirit for animals and fairies and whatnot, etc, and they always summon someone specific that have given you the magical permission to summon them, whatever way that manifests in your setting (true names, magic amulets, downloading their spirit, etc).
Not much in the way of argument from me.
The rules I have set up for my new world, summoning/conjuring of all kinds does not immediately grant the caster any sort of control over the subject. Doesn't matter if it is an insect, beast, elemental, or Arch-fiend, they can all be summoned, but there is noting that forces them to obey. Tis is a key point, since two things apply: 1 - if they summon a powerful sentient being, then they have to give up their true name to do (meaning they can now be summoned by that being); 2 --n If they make a deal and succeed, they are still going to be able to be summoned themselves, and if there was a rule about obeying, I would have to strip agency from the PC.
Then there's the whole ting about it being really icky to do someone, though perhaps the insect and animal stuff might be "ok". Plus, I have a couple players who have flags on that play.
Not saying that's how it should be for anyone else, just pointing out the stuff for me, because it feeds into this. The tasha stuff calls into being a corporeal spirit, the new conjures (UA) call forth an incorporeal spirit. The current Conjures (2014 PHB) allow people to summon one to eight physical creatures -- so in reality, they are kinda addressing your concerns, even though they do still allow the single being thing.
i do like your idea of a "summon particular person". I think I will add it in, but the reason that this all works better for me is that I have a class that is explicitly structured to be the kind of people who deal in the spirits of the world. The whole point of their archetype is that they are supposed to have these beings do stuff for them and they aren't intended to be all that hot on the physical side of things (all my classes are MAD, and they are Wisdom, Perception, and Charisma -- but as a spell casting class, they also have Mana).
The world has powerful spirit beings that are able to be encountered (Dryads, Nymphs, Woads, etc) and this class deals with them, but I also have things that are very much akin to the Loa and the Numen and these spells are perfect for that. I am kinda upset that I have to take them away from other classes, lol.
in a regular game, this change will make our lives immensely easier as DMs, lol. So I am very much for that -- combat can already slog and adding in a dozen small extra critters is just a pain in the ass.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I'm in love with the idea that summoning a creature means that same creature can summon YOU. It's a little tricky in a team game, but wow that's so cool.