The table has been discussing an Arcane Trickster build, for a Level 20 one shot. Nobody can agree on what 4th level spells to pick, considering that most Legendary Monsters have blindsight and Greater Invisibility is basically pointless.
Enter Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound. This might not seem like much, with only 4d8 force damage with 5ft range. However, it is a summon that last 8 HOURS. Additionally, it does not require concentration. Additionally, it is invisible, cannot be targeted by anybody else, can move 30 feet per turn, and never takes any damage. In short, an invincible summon that lasts for 8 hours and does not require concentration.
Here are my current concerns/questions about the MFH rules: 1) Is Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound a creature that can be targeted by spells by the caster who cast it? (ie buff spells) 2) Can the MFH hop up and ride a mount, such as a riding horse or Phantom Steed? 3) Can the MFH hop up onto Tenser's Floating Disk and automatically follow the caster while the caster rides a mount (i.e. Phantom Steed?). 4) Can MFH be swallowed by larger creatures, such as the Tarrasque? 5) Can MFH be cast and then stowed away in a Bag of Holding, so that he doesn't bark when you are sneaking around? Or can you muzzle him or just command him not to bark until you put him into "guard mode" or whatever. 6) Can the caster use a magical method to see via the MFH and thereby gain "True Sight" as if looking through a familiar?
I appreciate any and all opinions, as well as suggestions for tactics with MFH if you have used it before in battle. What am I not seeing?
For reference:
Level
4th
Casting Time
1 Action
Range/Area
30 ft.
Components
V, S, M *
Duration
8 Hours
School
Conjuration
Attack/Save
DEX Save
Damage/Effect
Force
You conjure a phantom watchdog in an unoccupied space that you can see within range. The hound remains for the duration or until the two of you are more than 300 feet apart from each other.
No one but you can see the hound, and it is intangible and invulnerable. When a Small or larger creature comes within 30 feet of it without first speaking the password that you specify when you cast this spell, the hound starts barking loudly. The hound has Truesight with a range of 30 feet.
At the start of each of your turns, the hound attempts to bite one enemy within 5 feet of it. That enemy must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 4d8 Force damage.
On your later turns, you can take a Magic action to move the hound up to 30 feet.
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound is not a creature, and the only means by which it can move is the caster using a Magic action to move it, so unfortunately the answer to all of your questions is No.
It is not really a "summon" spell and is probably best thought of as something more along the lines of Guardian of Faith.
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound is not a creature, and the only means by which it can move is the caster using a Magic action to move it, so unfortunately the answer to all of your questions is No.
It is not really a "summon" spell and is probably best thought of as something more along the lines of Guardian of Faith.
Well Guardian of Faith has the summoning tag LOL but I see where you are coming from.
So in your understanding, is a creature defined as something with a stat card? Or can a creature be a “non stat card”?
For instance there are many animals that do not have a stat card, but are still creatures logically.
And a Specter has a stat card so is it safe to say that “spectral” means also a creature in the same way a specter is a creature?
In this case it is a Hound. There is a Mastiff stat card that could be utilized. I’m not sayin this is RAW or even RAI, but I’m just saying a Hound that is not an illusion might be a creature in the same way a familiar is a creature even though it is a summon/conjuration.
But even if it is not a creature per se, the 30 foot movement could be onto a Tenser’s floating disk, yes? And then it could move? Maybe it could also move into a bag of holding? I don’t see the word teleport so I suppose it literally just walks.
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound is not a creature, and the only means by which it can move is the caster using a Magic action to move it, so unfortunately the answer to all of your questions is No.
It is not really a "summon" spell and is probably best thought of as something more along the lines of Guardian of Faith.
Well Guardian of Faith has the summoning tag LOL but I see where you are coming from.
The "summoning" tag is an artifact of D&D Beyond's categorization system and not part of any official rules.
And a Specter has a stat card so is it safe to say that “spectral” means also a creature in the same way a specter is a creature?
...no, that does not make any sense. The fact that the spell uses a descriptive word that is etymologically related to the name of a totally unrelated creature has no impact on the actual rules.
In this case it is a Hound. There is a Mastiff stat card that could be utilized. I’m not sayin this is RAW or even RAI, but I’m just saying a Hound that is not an illusion might be a creature in the same way a familiar is a creature even though it is a summon/conjuration.
I mean, sure, you can house-rule anything you want, but "Do the rules allow me to do X?" and "Can I house-rule that I'm allowed to do X?" are two very different questions, and you're posting in the forum for the former type of question.
A Hound that's not an illusion might be a creature, sure, but under the actual rules, this one is not.
But even if it is not a creature per se, the 30 foot movement could be onto a Tenser’s floating disk, yes? And then it could move? Maybe it could also move into a bag of holding? I don’t see the word teleport so I suppose it literally just walks.
Nothing is saying you can't move the Hound onto a Tenser's Floating Disk, but since the Hound is described as intangible, the disk can't interact with it or support it.
As for a Bag of Holding, I would definitely rule that that doesn't work since the Hound, again, is not intended to be a tangible thing that takes up space or can be put inside things. Attempts to move it around outside of the explicitly defined way you can move it would fall under the "good faith interpretation" principle.
Plus, the Hound disappears if it's more than 300 feet from the caster, and inside a Bag of Holding is literally another universe.
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound is not a creature, and the only means by which it can move is the caster using a Magic action to move it, so unfortunately the answer to all of your questions is No.
It is not really a "summon" spell and is probably best thought of as something more along the lines of Guardian of Faith.
Well Guardian of Faith has the summoning tag LOL but I see where you are coming from.
The "summoning" tag is an artifact of D&D Beyond's categorization system and not part of any official rules.
And a Specter has a stat card so is it safe to say that “spectral” means also a creature in the same way a specter is a creature?
...no, that does not make any sense. The fact that the spell uses a descriptive word that is etymologically related to the name of a totally unrelated creature has no impact on the actual rules.
In this case it is a Hound. There is a Mastiff stat card that could be utilized. I’m not sayin this is RAW or even RAI, but I’m just saying a Hound that is not an illusion might be a creature in the same way a familiar is a creature even though it is a summon/conjuration.
I mean, sure, you can house-rule anything you want, but "Do the rules allow me to do X?" and "Can I house-rule that I'm allowed to do X?" are two very different questions, and you're posting in the forum for the former type of question.
A Hound that's not an illusion might be a creature, sure, but under the actual rules, this one is not.
But even if it is not a creature per se, the 30 foot movement could be onto a Tenser’s floating disk, yes? And then it could move? Maybe it could also move into a bag of holding? I don’t see the word teleport so I suppose it literally just walks.
Nothing is saying you can't move the Hound onto a Tenser's Floating Disk, but since the Hound is described as intangible, the disk can't interact with it or support it.
As for a Bag of Holding, I would definitely rule that that doesn't work since the Hound, again, is not intended to be a tangible thing that takes up space or can be put inside things. Attempts to move it around outside of the explicitly defined way you can move it would fall under the "good faith interpretation" principle.
Plus, the Hound disappears if it's more than 300 feet from the caster, and inside a Bag of Holding is literally another universe.
In rereading it and thinking about it I can understand why it would not be able to receive buff spells because what would I be buffing? Even if it is possible, any concentration buff would be better on the caster rather than the hound.
I think the Exploit/Combo I had in mind was basically using the Tenser’s Floating Disk to follow the caster on Phantom Steed and to get past the 30 ft movement limitation because it would effectively follow me with the MFH aboard.
Additionally I am wondering if metamagic could improve the MFH when I cast it…. basically what are the interactions I can do with an Arcane Trickster build to optimize the Hound?
At the very least, I think I could extend the duration of the hound. Just thinking….. lol
Also I had thought about the Bag of Holding having a doggie tail hanging out of it so it is still “in range” but the face is covered.
In rereading it and thinking about it I can understand why it would not be able to receive buff spells because what would I be buffing? Even if it is possible, any concentration buff would be better on the caster rather than the hound.
That's correct. Since it's not a creature, it can't be the target of spells that target creatures.
Additionally I am wondering if metamagic could improve the MFH when I cast it…. basically what are the interactions I can do with an Arcane Trickster build to optimize the Hound?
At the very least, I think I could extend the duration of the hound. Just thinking….. lol
There are a few Metamagic options that could apply:
Distant Spell could be used to extend the range of the initial deployment of the spell (though it doesn't affect the distance it can be away from you).
Empowered Spell could be used on the Hound's damage rolls.
Extended Spell would increase the spell's duration to 16 hours.
Heightened Spell could apply to someone's saving throws against the damage, but it's unlikely to come up in practice since you'd need to know who the target was when you cast the spell.
Quickened Spell could be used to cast the spell as a bonus action.
Subtle Spell could be used to cast it without any components.
Again, though, the main purpose of this spell is to protect you from ambushes and surprise attacks.
Heightened Spell could apply to someone's saving throws against the damage, but it's unlikely to come up in practice since you'd need to know who the target was when you cast the spell. [...]
I'm ruling that metamagic option differently, based on this opinion from the Dev (Careful Spell has similar wording to Heightened Spell):
@quadhund Just my monthly ask about whether Careful Spell can be used with Cloudkill? @JeremyECrawford Careful Spell is used the turn you cast a spell and is intended to affect saving throws made that turn.
Heightened Spell could apply to someone's saving throws against the damage, but it's unlikely to come up in practice since you'd need to know who the target was when you cast the spell. [...]
I'm ruling that metamagic option differently, based on this opinion from the Dev (Careful Spell has similar wording to Heightened Spell):
@quadhund Just my monthly ask about whether Careful Spell can be used with Cloudkill? @JeremyECrawford Careful Spell is used the turn you cast a spell and is intended to affect saving throws made that turn.
In rereading it and thinking about it I can understand why it would not be able to receive buff spells because what would I be buffing? Even if it is possible, any concentration buff would be better on the caster rather than the hound.
That's correct. Since it's not a creature, it can't be the target of spells that target creatures.
Additionally I am wondering if metamagic could improve the MFH when I cast it…. basically what are the interactions I can do with an Arcane Trickster build to optimize the Hound?
At the very least, I think I could extend the duration of the hound. Just thinking….. lol
There are a few Metamagic options that could apply:
Distant Spell could be used to extend the range of the initial deployment of the spell (though it doesn't affect the distance it can be away from you).
Empowered Spell could be used on the Hound's damage rolls.
Extended Spell would increase the spell's duration to 16 hours.
Heightened Spell could apply to someone's saving throws against the damage, but it's unlikely to come up in practice since you'd need to know who the target was when you cast the spell.
Quickened Spell could be used to cast the spell as a bonus action.
Subtle Spell could be used to cast it without any components.
Again, though, the main purpose of this spell is to protect you from ambushes and surprise attacks.
I think my concept here is basically to have the hound riding on a floating disc behind me while I ride around on a phantom steed and it creates a extra 4d8 damage but I am playing with the mechanics and how exactly it would work out because it I’m not even sure if it’s possible yet.
I also would love to find a way to increase the 4d8 or the range.
The one-shot I have in mind is basically to take down a terrasque that has a few baddies riding on the back to shoot back at flying archers. It will probably be a party of 6, where everyone gets 5-7 “any” magic items and we just have to kill it before it walks a mile and destroys a city.
The MFH is a really good option because the terrasque is so big it could probably be in range of it almost every round if it is set up right. And its invulnerable. I’m just playing around with the concept for a Trickster.
But a Sorceror might have more fun lol
Notes: Please mind formatting and remember to edit your message!
I think my concept here is basically to have the hound riding on a floating disc behind me while I ride around on a phantom steed and it creates a extra 4d8 damage but I am playing with the mechanics and how exactly it would work out because it I’m not even sure if it’s possible yet.
That's already been established that it is not possible. The Hound cannot be carried and does not move on its own. It can only move 30 feet if you take the Magic action to move it. In addition, the Tarrasque will have advantage on the saving throw against the Hound's damage due to Magic Resistance meaning that most turns, the hound will deal no damage. With the Tarrasque's movement, it's going to be hard to pin it in place near the Hound and even if you manage it, it will do pitiful damage.
By the time you are fighting a Tarrasque, there are far better options in terms of actions and spell slots.
I think my concept here is basically to have the hound riding on a floating disc behind me while I ride around on a phantom steed and it creates a extra 4d8 damage but I am playing with the mechanics and how exactly it would work out because it I’m not even sure if it’s possible yet.
That's already been established that it is not possible. The Hound cannot be carried and does not move on its own. It can only move 30 feet if you take the Magic action to move it. In addition, the Tarrasque will have advantage on the saving throw against the Hound's damage due to Magic Resistance meaning that most turns, the hound will deal no damage. With the Tarrasque's movement, it's going to be hard to pin it in place near the Hound and even if you manage it, it will do pitiful damage.
By the time you are fighting a Tarrasque, there are far better options in terms of actions and spell slots.
Theorycrafting being what it is, I am thankful for your input.
Sure The Terrasque has magical resistance. But check out the dex score (+0). By 20 an Arcane Trickster has +5 to spells if my Intelligence is 8, probably +11 if @20 and that is without gear bonuses.
The reason I am thinking MFH is because my character might want to fly in the air and from overhead. So I am looking at non-concentration spells. Getting in melee range is suicidal with that bad boy, but an MFH cannot be killed. 😁 And instead of lasting one minute it lasts 8 hours my dude.
I just have to stay within 300 feet. I am exploring options but am not sure how MFH interacts with everything.
I think my concept here is basically to have the hound riding on a floating disc behind me while I ride around on a phantom steed and it creates a extra 4d8 damage but I am playing with the mechanics and how exactly it would work out because it I’m not even sure if it’s possible yet.
That's already been established that it is not possible. The Hound cannot be carried and does not move on its own. It can only move 30 feet if you take the Magic action to move it. In addition, the Tarrasque will have advantage on the saving throw against the Hound's damage due to Magic Resistance meaning that most turns, the hound will deal no damage. With the Tarrasque's movement, it's going to be hard to pin it in place near the Hound and even if you manage it, it will do pitiful damage.
By the time you are fighting a Tarrasque, there are far better options in terms of actions and spell slots.
Theorycrafting being what it is, I am thankful for your input.
Sure The Terrasque has magical resistance. But check out the dex score (+0). By 20 an Arcane Trickster has +5 to spells if my Intelligence is 8, probably +11 if @20 and that is without gear bonuses.
The reason I am thinking MFH is because my character might want to fly in the air and from overhead. So I am looking at non-concentration spells. Getting in melee range is suicidal with that bad boy, but an MFH cannot be killed. 😁 And instead of lasting one minute it lasts 8 hours my dude.
I just have to stay within 300 feet. I am exploring options but am not sure how MFH interacts with everything.
Tarrasque is proficient in Dex saves, resulting in a +9 with advantage. That's an average of 19.5 on its saves. Also it can outpace the MFH and has no reason to pay the thing any mind, so you're only hitting if OTHER things are holding it back from walking away. And because it only bites at the start of YOUR turn, if it moved even 5 feet away, you're doing nothing to it.
Even my level 20 Paladin/Sorcerer with the Jester's Mask and 22 Cha would hit, at most, 70% of the time if I cast while in Innate Sorcery and use Heightened Spell to offset Magic Resistance. That's, again, assuming the thing is holding still.
I think my concept here is basically to have the hound riding on a floating disc behind me while I ride around on a phantom steed and it creates a extra 4d8 damage but I am playing with the mechanics and how exactly it would work out because it I’m not even sure if it’s possible yet.
That's already been established that it is not possible. The Hound cannot be carried and does not move on its own. It can only move 30 feet if you take the Magic action to move it. In addition, the Tarrasque will have advantage on the saving throw against the Hound's damage due to Magic Resistance meaning that most turns, the hound will deal no damage. With the Tarrasque's movement, it's going to be hard to pin it in place near the Hound and even if you manage it, it will do pitiful damage.
By the time you are fighting a Tarrasque, there are far better options in terms of actions and spell slots.
Theorycrafting being what it is, I am thankful for your input.
Sure The Terrasque has magical resistance. But check out the dex score (+0). By 20 an Arcane Trickster has +5 to spells if my Intelligence is 8, probably +11 if @20 and that is without gear bonuses.
The reason I am thinking MFH is because my character might want to fly in the air and from overhead. So I am looking at non-concentration spells. Getting in melee range is suicidal with that bad boy, but an MFH cannot be killed. 😁 And instead of lasting one minute it lasts 8 hours my dude.
I just have to stay within 300 feet. I am exploring options but am not sure how MFH interacts with everything.
Tarrasque is proficient in Dex saves, resulting in a +9 with advantage. That's an average of 19.5 on its saves. Also it can outpace the MFH and has no reason to pay the thing any mind, so you're only hitting if OTHER things are holding it back from walking away. And because it only bites at the start of YOUR turn, if it moved even 5 feet away, you're doing nothing to it.
Even my level 20 Paladin/Sorcerer with the Jester's Mask and 22 Cha would hit, at most, 70% of the time if I cast while in Innate Sorcery and use Heightened Spell to offset Magic Resistance. That's, again, assuming the thing is holding still.
I am theory crafting here. This is just in the brainstorming stage. My thinking on using the MFH was that since it is intangible the Terrasque could move right through it’s space. And being within 5 feet, the MFH could do damage that does not use an action, bonus action, concentration or reaction. So it is part of a formula I am assembling. It is not the entire formula.
Yes the Terrasque has saving throws. I haven’t crunched the math yet I’m just exploring possibilities. :)
The other thing I am wondering is if Magical Ambush would apply to MFH since it is attacking while invisible and is my spell. Probably not, but its an interesting question.
I am theory crafting here. This is just in the brainstorming stage. My thinking on using the MFH was that since it is intangible the Terrasque could move right through it’s space. And being within 5 feet, the MFH could do damage that does not use an action, bonus action, concentration or reaction. So it is part of a formula I am assembling. It is not the entire formula.
Yes the Terrasque has saving throws. I haven’t crunched the math yet I’m just exploring possibilities. :)
The other thing I am wondering is if Magical Ambush would apply to MFH since it is attacking while invisible and is my spell. Probably not, but its an interesting question.
True, it could do small amounts of damage, but remember that average damage is only ~2.5% of the Tarrasque's average HP. (~1.76% of its max HP according to the block, which if your DM likes to make legendary creatures actually legendary, they might use that like I do. Especially for a one-shot.)
Also remember what I mentioned: The placement of the Tarrasque is checked at the start of your turn, before you get a chance to move it. So if it's moving, you're doing zero damage with this.
As for Magical Ambush: It will NEVER work with Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound. That only applies to spells you cast that turn, and the save doesn't happen the turn the spell is cast.
I am theory crafting here. This is just in the brainstorming stage. My thinking on using the MFH was that since it is intangible the Terrasque could move right through it’s space. And being within 5 feet, the MFH could do damage that does not use an action, bonus action, concentration or reaction. So it is part of a formula I am assembling. It is not the entire formula.
Mordenkanen's Faithful Hound does require an action. It requires an action to move it in range of the target. You've already been informed that the spell doesn't allow you to drag it around on a floating disk or something similar. Unless you are willing to give up your action for a weak attack, you are limited to trying to keep a creature with a high walking speed, a burrowing speed, and a climb speed in range of the spell.
I estimate, that if you can get attacks every round with the hound the DPR will be about 11.52. The most effective way to do so is with the ready action to move the Hound if the Tarrasque moves (hoping that it doesn't move its full 60 foot move or decide to burrow, perhaps after swallowing someone) or to huddle up where the Tarrasque can munch on the entire party. Since you've said that the one-shot involves trying to stop a Tarrasque on the rampage, it's pretty much guaranteed to be using its full movement and the hound can't keep up. The Hound will be a one-shot, hit or miss for 4D6 damage.
Needing to give up that action to maintain range on the Tarrasque means that you are not sneak attacking via an adjacent ally for +10D6 damage on top of 2+ attacks. Even the initial casting is a waste of an action.
Yes the Terrasque has saving throws. I haven’t crunched the math yet I’m just exploring possibilities. :)
If you are targeting it with spells or other magical effects, it's not perfect, but add about +4 to all of its the saves to represent the advantage on the saves.
The other thing I am wondering is if Magical Ambush would apply to MFH since it is attacking while invisible and is my spell. Probably not, but its an interesting question.
No. You are not invisible while casting the spell and Mordenkanen's Faithful Hound is not cast on a creature. It doesn't meet either criteria for Magical Ambush and it needs to meet both to apply.
As for Magical Ambush: It will NEVER work with Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound. That only applies to spells you cast that turn, and the save doesn't happen the turn the spell is cast.
It's even more restrictive than that.
The caster has to be invisible, not the spell effect (the hound).
The spell has to be cast on a creature (Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound is not cast on a creature; it summons an effect in a space). This also rules out any AoEs.
The Arcane Trickster options against a Tarrasque are rough.
I am theory crafting here. This is just in the brainstorming stage. My thinking on using the MFH was that since it is intangible the Terrasque could move right through it’s space. And being within 5 feet, the MFH could do damage that does not use an action, bonus action, concentration or reaction. So it is part of a formula I am assembling. It is not the entire formula.
Yes the Terrasque has saving throws. I haven’t crunched the math yet I’m just exploring possibilities. :)
The other thing I am wondering is if Magical Ambush would apply to MFH since it is attacking while invisible and is my spell. Probably not, but its an interesting question.
True, it could do small amounts of damage, but remember that average damage is only ~2.5% of the Tarrasque's average HP. (~1.76% of its max HP according to the block, which if your DM likes to make legendary creatures actually legendary, they might use that like I do. Especially for a one-shot.)
Also remember what I mentioned: The placement of the Tarrasque is checked at the start of your turn, before you get a chance to move it. So if it's moving, you're doing zero damage with this.
As for Magical Ambush: It will NEVER work with Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound. That only applies to spells you cast that turn, and the save doesn't happen the turn the spell is cast.
Well there are other members of the team that have their own abilities. The Arcane Trickster will probably wait until the Terrasque is walled in by Force Walls or something before it drops MFH.
As part of the concept I think the Terrasque has a driver who is forcing it to run at full speed. So once the driver is killed it stops moving forward and just attacks the team. I imagine it like one of those Oliphants with the saddle carriage on top in Return of the King.
The main obvious issue I see is it has a burrowing speed. So we might make the case that this is a “domesticated” Terrasque trained by XYZ fanatics to fight to the death and not run away. That way we can at least keep it above ground.
I am theory crafting here. This is just in the brainstorming stage. My thinking on using the MFH was that since it is intangible the Terrasque could move right through it’s space. And being within 5 feet, the MFH could do damage that does not use an action, bonus action, concentration or reaction. So it is part of a formula I am assembling. It is not the entire formula.
Mordenkanen's Faithful Hound does require an action. It requires an action to move it in range of the target. You've already been informed that the spell doesn't allow you to drag it around on a floating disk or something similar. Unless you are willing to give up your action for a weak attack, you are limited to trying to keep a creature with a high walking speed, a burrowing speed, and a climb speed in range of the spell.
I estimate, that if you can get attacks every round with the hound the DPR will be about 11.52. The most effective way to do so is with the ready action to move the Hound if the Tarrasque moves (hoping that it doesn't move its full 60 foot move or decide to burrow, perhaps after swallowing someone) or to huddle up where the Tarrasque can munch on the entire party. Since you've said that the one-shot involves trying to stop a Tarrasque on the rampage, it's pretty much guaranteed to be using its full movement and the hound can't keep up. The Hound will be a one-shot, hit or miss for 4D6 damage.
Needing to give up that action to maintain range on the Tarrasque means that you are not sneak attacking via an adjacent ally for +10D6 damage on top of 2+ attacks. Even the initial casting is a waste of an action.
Yes the Terrasque has saving throws. I haven’t crunched the math yet I’m just exploring possibilities. :)
If you are targeting it with spells or other magical effects, it's not perfect, but add about +4 to all of its the saves to represent the advantage on the saves.
The other thing I am wondering is if Magical Ambush would apply to MFH since it is attacking while invisible and is my spell. Probably not, but its an interesting question.
No. You are not invisible while casting the spell and Mordenkanen's Faithful Hound is not cast on a creature. It doesn't meet either criteria for Magical Ambush and it needs to meet both to apply.
Thank you for the input.
In the scenario there is a party of 6 and other players will bring their skills to the table. I am actually thinking they will try to contain the Terrasque with force walls. Since it has low intelligence saves it will be very susceptible to the Mind Sliver cantrip and this will lower its saving throws.
I am exploring the concept as a potential use for the Arcane Trickster’s fourth level spell slot specifically because I think a rogue is going to want to be flying the entire battle and sniping using long range and unstoppable defense.
The team might take a full caster whose entire job is to fly in the air, cast mind sliver every round, and have a whole pack of the hounds. I think it would be a sorceror and we would use metamagic to increase duration of MFH and use up all their 4th level + spells on MFH on the evening prior to the battle and then again the day of. This would create an entire pack of MFH that could enter an opening in the force walls wide enough for us but too small for the Terrasque. Players could attack through the opening on their turn and then retreat.
The Arcane Trickster’s job will be to fly up and snipe the driver and probably kill the saddle carriage along with one other player. The flying sorceror could use level 1-3 spells on the goons.
As far as transporting them I was thinking they could go into a bag of holding but keep their tails hanging out so they are all still in range. How’s that for 🧀.
The table has been discussing an Arcane Trickster build, for a Level 20 one shot. Nobody can agree on what 4th level spells to pick, considering that most Legendary Monsters have blindsight and Greater Invisibility is basically pointless.
Enter Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound. This might not seem like much, with only 4d8 force damage with 5ft range. However, it is a summon that last 8 HOURS. Additionally, it does not require concentration. Additionally, it is invisible, cannot be targeted by anybody else, can move 30 feet per turn, and never takes any damage. In short, an invincible summon that lasts for 8 hours and does not require concentration.
Here are my current concerns/questions about the MFH rules:
1) Is Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound a creature that can be targeted by spells by the caster who cast it? (ie buff spells)
2) Can the MFH hop up and ride a mount, such as a riding horse or Phantom Steed?
3) Can the MFH hop up onto Tenser's Floating Disk and automatically follow the caster while the caster rides a mount (i.e. Phantom Steed?).
4) Can MFH be swallowed by larger creatures, such as the Tarrasque?
5) Can MFH be cast and then stowed away in a Bag of Holding, so that he doesn't bark when you are sneaking around? Or can you muzzle him or just command him not to bark until you put him into "guard mode" or whatever.
6) Can the caster use a magical method to see via the MFH and thereby gain "True Sight" as if looking through a familiar?
I appreciate any and all opinions, as well as suggestions for tactics with MFH if you have used it before in battle. What am I not seeing?
For reference:
You conjure a phantom watchdog in an unoccupied space that you can see within range. The hound remains for the duration or until the two of you are more than 300 feet apart from each other.
No one but you can see the hound, and it is intangible and invulnerable. When a Small or larger creature comes within 30 feet of it without first speaking the password that you specify when you cast this spell, the hound starts barking loudly. The hound has Truesight with a range of 30 feet.
At the start of each of your turns, the hound attempts to bite one enemy within 5 feet of it. That enemy must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 4d8 Force damage.
On your later turns, you can take a Magic action to move the hound up to 30 feet.
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound is not a creature, and the only means by which it can move is the caster using a Magic action to move it, so unfortunately the answer to all of your questions is No.
It is not really a "summon" spell and is probably best thought of as something more along the lines of Guardian of Faith.
pronouns: he/she/they
Well Guardian of Faith has the summoning tag LOL but I see where you are coming from.
So in your understanding, is a creature defined as something with a stat card? Or can a creature be a “non stat card”?
For instance there are many animals that do not have a stat card, but are still creatures logically.
And a Specter has a stat card so is it safe to say that “spectral” means also a creature in the same way a specter is a creature?
In this case it is a Hound. There is a Mastiff stat card that could be utilized. I’m not sayin this is RAW or even RAI, but I’m just saying a Hound that is not an illusion might be a creature in the same way a familiar is a creature even though it is a summon/conjuration.
But even if it is not a creature per se, the 30 foot movement could be onto a Tenser’s floating disk, yes? And then it could move? Maybe it could also move into a bag of holding? I don’t see the word teleport so I suppose it literally just walks.
The "summoning" tag is an artifact of D&D Beyond's categorization system and not part of any official rules.
The spell would need to provide a stat block and/or say explicitly that it was a creature for it to be a creature.
...no, that does not make any sense. The fact that the spell uses a descriptive word that is etymologically related to the name of a totally unrelated creature has no impact on the actual rules.
I mean, sure, you can house-rule anything you want, but "Do the rules allow me to do X?" and "Can I house-rule that I'm allowed to do X?" are two very different questions, and you're posting in the forum for the former type of question.
A Hound that's not an illusion might be a creature, sure, but under the actual rules, this one is not.
Nothing is saying you can't move the Hound onto a Tenser's Floating Disk, but since the Hound is described as intangible, the disk can't interact with it or support it.
As for a Bag of Holding, I would definitely rule that that doesn't work since the Hound, again, is not intended to be a tangible thing that takes up space or can be put inside things. Attempts to move it around outside of the explicitly defined way you can move it would fall under the "good faith interpretation" principle.
Plus, the Hound disappears if it's more than 300 feet from the caster, and inside a Bag of Holding is literally another universe.
pronouns: he/she/they
In rereading it and thinking about it I can understand why it would not be able to receive buff spells because what would I be buffing? Even if it is possible, any concentration buff would be better on the caster rather than the hound.
I think the Exploit/Combo I had in mind was basically using the Tenser’s Floating Disk to follow the caster on Phantom Steed and to get past the 30 ft movement limitation because it would effectively follow me with the MFH aboard.
Additionally I am wondering if metamagic could improve the MFH when I cast it…. basically what are the interactions I can do with an Arcane Trickster build to optimize the Hound?
At the very least, I think I could extend the duration of the hound. Just thinking….. lol
Also I had thought about the Bag of Holding having a doggie tail hanging out of it so it is still “in range” but the face is covered.
That's correct. Since it's not a creature, it can't be the target of spells that target creatures.
There are a few Metamagic options that could apply:
Again, though, the main purpose of this spell is to protect you from ambushes and surprise attacks.
pronouns: he/she/they
If the hound is intangible, can it be moved through walls and floors?
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I don't see why not.
pronouns: he/she/they
I'm ruling that metamagic option differently, based on this opinion from the Dev (Careful Spell has similar wording to Heightened Spell):
This kind of wording was recently debated in RAW, and "When a spell you cast...".
Anyway, I'm not saying my perspective is the only correct one.
I'd rule Careful and Heightened differently in 5.5e. Heightened has text specifying multiple saves and Careful doesn't.
I think my concept here is basically to have the hound riding on a floating disc behind me while I ride around on a phantom steed and it creates a extra 4d8 damage but I am playing with the mechanics and how exactly it would work out because it I’m not even sure if it’s possible yet.
I also would love to find a way to increase the 4d8 or the range.
The one-shot I have in mind is basically to take down a terrasque that has a few baddies riding on the back to shoot back at flying archers. It will probably be a party of 6, where everyone gets 5-7 “any” magic items and we just have to kill it before it walks a mile and destroys a city.
The MFH is a really good option because the terrasque is so big it could probably be in range of it almost every round if it is set up right. And its invulnerable. I’m just playing around with the concept for a Trickster.
But a Sorceror might have more fun lol
That's already been established that it is not possible. The Hound cannot be carried and does not move on its own. It can only move 30 feet if you take the Magic action to move it. In addition, the Tarrasque will have advantage on the saving throw against the Hound's damage due to Magic Resistance meaning that most turns, the hound will deal no damage. With the Tarrasque's movement, it's going to be hard to pin it in place near the Hound and even if you manage it, it will do pitiful damage.
By the time you are fighting a Tarrasque, there are far better options in terms of actions and spell slots.
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Theorycrafting being what it is, I am thankful for your input.
Sure The Terrasque has magical resistance. But check out the dex score (+0). By 20 an Arcane Trickster has +5 to spells if my Intelligence is 8, probably +11 if @20 and that is without gear bonuses.
The reason I am thinking MFH is because my character might want to fly in the air and from overhead. So I am looking at non-concentration spells. Getting in melee range is suicidal with that bad boy, but an MFH cannot be killed. 😁 And instead of lasting one minute it lasts 8 hours my dude.
I just have to stay within 300 feet. I am exploring options but am not sure how MFH interacts with everything.
Tarrasque is proficient in Dex saves, resulting in a +9 with advantage. That's an average of 19.5 on its saves. Also it can outpace the MFH and has no reason to pay the thing any mind, so you're only hitting if OTHER things are holding it back from walking away. And because it only bites at the start of YOUR turn, if it moved even 5 feet away, you're doing nothing to it.
Even my level 20 Paladin/Sorcerer with the Jester's Mask and 22 Cha would hit, at most, 70% of the time if I cast while in Innate Sorcery and use Heightened Spell to offset Magic Resistance. That's, again, assuming the thing is holding still.
I am theory crafting here. This is just in the brainstorming stage. My thinking on using the MFH was that since it is intangible the Terrasque could move right through it’s space. And being within 5 feet, the MFH could do damage that does not use an action, bonus action, concentration or reaction. So it is part of a formula I am assembling. It is not the entire formula.
Yes the Terrasque has saving throws. I haven’t crunched the math yet I’m just exploring possibilities. :)
The other thing I am wondering is if Magical Ambush would apply to MFH since it is attacking while invisible and is my spell. Probably not, but its an interesting question.
True, it could do small amounts of damage, but remember that average damage is only ~2.5% of the Tarrasque's average HP. (~1.76% of its max HP according to the block, which if your DM likes to make legendary creatures actually legendary, they might use that like I do. Especially for a one-shot.)
Also remember what I mentioned: The placement of the Tarrasque is checked at the start of your turn, before you get a chance to move it. So if it's moving, you're doing zero damage with this.
As for Magical Ambush: It will NEVER work with Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound. That only applies to spells you cast that turn, and the save doesn't happen the turn the spell is cast.
Mordenkanen's Faithful Hound does require an action. It requires an action to move it in range of the target. You've already been informed that the spell doesn't allow you to drag it around on a floating disk or something similar. Unless you are willing to give up your action for a weak attack, you are limited to trying to keep a creature with a high walking speed, a burrowing speed, and a climb speed in range of the spell.
I estimate, that if you can get attacks every round with the hound the DPR will be about 11.52. The most effective way to do so is with the ready action to move the Hound if the Tarrasque moves (hoping that it doesn't move its full 60 foot move or decide to burrow, perhaps after swallowing someone) or to huddle up where the Tarrasque can munch on the entire party. Since you've said that the one-shot involves trying to stop a Tarrasque on the rampage, it's pretty much guaranteed to be using its full movement and the hound can't keep up. The Hound will be a one-shot, hit or miss for 4D6 damage.
Needing to give up that action to maintain range on the Tarrasque means that you are not sneak attacking via an adjacent ally for +10D6 damage on top of 2+ attacks. Even the initial casting is a waste of an action.
If you are targeting it with spells or other magical effects, it's not perfect, but add about +4 to all of its the saves to represent the advantage on the saves.
No. You are not invisible while casting the spell and Mordenkanen's Faithful Hound is not cast on a creature. It doesn't meet either criteria for Magical Ambush and it needs to meet both to apply.
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It's even more restrictive than that.
The Arcane Trickster options against a Tarrasque are rough.
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Well there are other members of the team that have their own abilities. The Arcane Trickster will probably wait until the Terrasque is walled in by Force Walls or something before it drops MFH.
As part of the concept I think the Terrasque has a driver who is forcing it to run at full speed. So once the driver is killed it stops moving forward and just attacks the team. I imagine it like one of those Oliphants with the saddle carriage on top in Return of the King.
The main obvious issue I see is it has a burrowing speed. So we might make the case that this is a “domesticated” Terrasque trained by XYZ fanatics to fight to the death and not run away. That way we can at least keep it above ground.
Thank you for the input.
In the scenario there is a party of 6 and other players will bring their skills to the table. I am actually thinking they will try to contain the Terrasque with force walls. Since it has low intelligence saves it will be very susceptible to the Mind Sliver cantrip and this will lower its saving throws.
I am exploring the concept as a potential use for the Arcane Trickster’s fourth level spell slot specifically because I think a rogue is going to want to be flying the entire battle and sniping using long range and unstoppable defense.
The team might take a full caster whose entire job is to fly in the air, cast mind sliver every round, and have a whole pack of the hounds. I think it would be a sorceror and we would use metamagic to increase duration of MFH and use up all their 4th level + spells on MFH on the evening prior to the battle and then again the day of. This would create an entire pack of MFH that could enter an opening in the force walls wide enough for us but too small for the Terrasque. Players could attack through the opening on their turn and then retreat.
The Arcane Trickster’s job will be to fly up and snipe the driver and probably kill the saddle carriage along with one other player. The flying sorceror could use level 1-3 spells on the goons.
As far as transporting them I was thinking they could go into a bag of holding but keep their tails hanging out so they are all still in range. How’s that for 🧀.
A team of 6 has options. ☕️