so I was writing up a necromancer Wizard for an upcoming one-shot adventure with some friends when something jumped out at me, in the Monster Manual it says that "A Skeleton can fight with weapons and wear armor, can load and fire a catapult or trebuchet, scale a siege ladder, form a shield wall, or dump boiling oil. However, it must receive careful instructions explaining how such tasks are accomplished." this leads me to believe that monsters don't differentiate between light, medium and heavy armors or between simple and martial weapons. simply saying that they can use weapons and armor instead of going all specific on us. (please feel free to correct this if I've misstepped) My questions are:
-Can I give all my Skeletons scale mail, shields, and rapiers? (assuming I have the currency)
-With the Necromancer School's Undead Thralls feature both the Skeleton's HP and it's Damage Per Round increase, with the new equipment furthering that increase, would they remain Cr 1/4 or would their new features raise them to Cr 1? monsters usually use their weapons and armor to help with the Cr calculation, and the undead thralls applies to them forever so this makes sense to me, but I'd like to be sure. (13hp, 13ac, 5dpr, +4 to hit) vs (21hp, 18ac, 10dpr, +4 to hit) this only matters once we hit a cleric that wants to stop my rampage by destroying my undead with Destroy Undead.
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Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
You absolutely can equip them with other items if you have the currency. And in my opinion, yes they are proficient with those weapons/armor. However, personally I'd rule Finesse weapons out since a skeleton always takes the simplest approach to achieve its goal. Considering that attacking something is at its simplest "wail on this guy" I'm not seeing them doing fancy work, feint attacks and such.
I would take a look at your encounters and base your decision on that. Look at their total stats and compare them to other encounters using monsters from the expected CR. Look at damage output, health and defensive abilities and look at the tables in the Dungeon Master Guide. Remember that CR is a guideline and not a hard and fast rule.
The DMG has rules for determining the CR of a monster from its stats.
CR is odd though - the Challenge Rating of a monster is exactly that - it's purpose is to inform a DM on how difficult an encounter is, so that they can provide a challenge to their players without making it too difficult. From there, because CR provides a guide on how tough a monster is, it's been used in several other places, such as druid wildshape and cleric destroy undead.
It perhaps seems a little odd that putting armour on your skeleton and giving it a decent weapon would increase its resistance to destroy undead, but if the equipment improves the stats of the skeleton sufficiently to boost its CR, then it seems reasonable and, as you mention, its expensive to do this.
Overall I'd say it's up to the DM how they choose to handle this.
As an interesting exercise (because I may be thinking of using a Necromancer bad guy in a game):
Scale Mail which changes the AC of the skeleton to 16 (14 + DEX bonus). With the shield, that is 18 AC.
The Player's Handbook states, "Martial weapons, including swords, axes, and polearms, require more specialized training to use effectively." however the standard skeleton comes with a Shortsword (and is utilising the finesse property), which is a martial weapon, so it seems reasonable to say that they are able to use martial weapons, therefore use of a Rapier seems ok. So, the damage of our skeleton is now 1d8+2.
Necromancer feature Undead Thralls. Let's say my Wizard is 10th level. This grants +10 hp (taking the skeleton to 23 hp) and +4 damage (taking the skeleton to 1d8+6 damage).
End result:
Armor Class: 18 Hit Points: 23 Action - Rapier Melee Weapon Attack +4 to hit (1d8+6) piercing damage.
Defensive Challenge rating (based on 23 hp) =1/8, however we check the AC, "If your monster’s AC is at least two points higher or lower than that number, adjust the challenge rating suggested by its hit points up or down by 1 for every 2 points of difference." and, as a typical 1/8 CR monster should have 13 AC, the AC of 18 our equipped skeleton has is 5 points higher, yielding +2 CR, for a defensive CR of 2.125
Offensive Challenge Rating (based on damage per round of 11) is a CR of 1. This gives a suggested attack bonus of +3, which is only a point off our +4, so doesn't change the CR.
Now we calculate the average of those, rounding up, which gives us a CR of 2.
Net result of that equipment and the necromancer's ability is our simple CR 1/8 skeleton is now CR 2!
That feels a little high to me, compared to other CR 2 undead like Minotaur Skeleton but that AC of 18 can make our skeleton pretty durable. If our party is 6th level, a 6th level fighter is going to have around +7 to hit (assuming +4 STR bonus from ASI), the fighter needs an 11 or higher on their d20 to hit the armoured skeleton.
Apologies for the lengthy post, this was as much my own musings as trying to help at all. :)
The Player's Handbook states, "Martial weapons, including swords, axes, and polearms, require more specialized training to use effectively." however the standard skeleton comes with a Shortsword (and is utilising the finesse property), which is a martial weapon, so it seems reasonable to say that they are able to use martial weapons, therefore use of a Rapier seems ok. So, the damage of our skeleton is now 1d8+2.
I should probably specify that I will be using the necromancer as my player character and thus I don’t know the encounters yet. Since CR has some impacts that are pretty hard and fast, like what level of undead qualifies for the Cleric’s Destroy Undead feature, I’d love to know if it can increase from upgrading the creature to avoid having my horde of vastly improved Skeletons be dusted by a low level Cleric
Im fairly sure that Skeletons should be able to use finesse weapons like the short sword that they use in the Monster Manuel. And with the door opened for use of any weapon rapiers seem like the logical progression, being similar in use but with a longer blade.
Since CR has some impacts that are pretty hard and fast, like what level of undead qualifies for the Cleric’s Destroy Undead feature, I’d love to know if it can increase from upgrading the creature to avoid having my horde of vastly improved Skeletons be dusted by a low level Cleric
Only the DM for your game can answer that for you - I encourage you to talk to them about this in advance. :)
This was pretty much what I was looking for, thanks!
I like how you refer to it as an “Armored Skeleton” as it has changed slightly from the basic Skeleton with its new stats and uniform
In the original post I ran through the same calculations with my 8th level character and didn’t quite make it to CR 2 (admittedly using an online CR calculator) but I like the idea of the CR for your goons going up as you level up, keeping them from being Cleric-Fodder at higher levels. I’ll run it by my DM
it feels like this is RAW, seeing as the table for it lives in the DMG, but this might be another sad case of the “depends on the DM” that plagues the Necromancers.
Man raising an army of the dead is so much harder than throwing a fireball, those evokers have it easy.
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Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
it feels like this is RAW, seeing as the table for it lives in the DMG, but this might be another sad case of the “depends on the DM” that plagues the Necromancers.
RAW the Necromancer's Thralls ability does not alter Challenge Rating, so they would be dust. I'm guessing that stereotypically they thought necromancers and clerics that would turn undead don't really see eye to eye.
That said, I don't think it would break the game for you if they would suffer from turn undead; the cleric could easily not use that feature and still be fine. All clerics have alternate uses for their Divine Smite, and if you're not up against undead, why would he use it? Since it's for a one off you could make it a lot easier and ask your dm if it would pose a problem because of the cleric's ability or not. If there are undead baddies, you could ask them if it's ok if your skeletons have turn resistance or something similar?
RAW the Necromancer's Thralls ability does not alter Challenge Rating, so they would be dust. I'm guessing that stereotypically they thought necromancers and clerics that would turn undead don't really see eye to eye.
Does it say this somewhere? The official sources say that CR is based off of a formula (that can be finagled) and when the upgraded Skeletons are plugged into the formula they come out as a higher CR than they did without the buffs they get by being summoned by a better necromancer and the new gear. Is there a “a creature’s CR cannot be changed” rule written somewhere?
the perspective Clerics are not in the party, but are a possible antagonist for the party.
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Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
I don't see a specific rule that covers whether the CR must be recalculated, but it is implied that this is the standard thing to do any time that a monster's stat block is changed.
One of the examples given in the DMG is as simple as changing the weapon of a Hobgoblin, so I would expect that a weapon change and equipping armour onto a skeleton also qualifies.
The best way I can describe it is the rules don't explicitly say you can't give them better equipment, but they also don't say anything about you not being able to do it. This leaves it firmly in "GM fiat" territory. It's like how mounts aren't technically proficient in barding (armor), but it's assumed you can put barding on a warhorse or dog as a mount.
I love that Stormknight started calculating what an undead in improved armor's CR would be. I think that's possibly more work than anyone is planning on doing, but it was rather interesting.
That said I've always been in favor of building Necromancer Barbie's Malibu Dream Horde.
As a note. Skeletons don't have muscle and skin on their bones. Your bones only make up about 15% of your body weight. So you'll want a lot of layers of cloth wrappings to bulk out the body so the armor can be worn. Thinking about that... If you assume the "average" human is 150, that means the "average" skeleton weighs 23 lbs?!
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so I was writing up a necromancer Wizard for an upcoming one-shot adventure with some friends when something jumped out at me, in the Monster Manual it says that "A Skeleton can fight with weapons and wear armor, can load and fire a catapult or trebuchet, scale a siege ladder, form a shield wall, or dump boiling oil. However, it must receive careful instructions explaining how such tasks are accomplished." this leads me to believe that monsters don't differentiate between light, medium and heavy armors or between simple and martial weapons. simply saying that they can use weapons and armor instead of going all specific on us. (please feel free to correct this if I've misstepped) My questions are:
-Can I give all my Skeletons scale mail, shields, and rapiers? (assuming I have the currency)
-With the Necromancer School's Undead Thralls feature both the Skeleton's HP and it's Damage Per Round increase, with the new equipment furthering that increase, would they remain Cr 1/4 or would their new features raise them to Cr 1? monsters usually use their weapons and armor to help with the Cr calculation, and the undead thralls applies to them forever so this makes sense to me, but I'd like to be sure. (13hp, 13ac, 5dpr, +4 to hit) vs (21hp, 18ac, 10dpr, +4 to hit) this only matters once we hit a cleric that wants to stop my rampage by destroying my undead with Destroy Undead.
Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
You absolutely can equip them with other items if you have the currency. And in my opinion, yes they are proficient with those weapons/armor. However, personally I'd rule Finesse weapons out since a skeleton always takes the simplest approach to achieve its goal. Considering that attacking something is at its simplest "wail on this guy" I'm not seeing them doing fancy work, feint attacks and such.
I would take a look at your encounters and base your decision on that. Look at their total stats and compare them to other encounters using monsters from the expected CR. Look at damage output, health and defensive abilities and look at the tables in the Dungeon Master Guide. Remember that CR is a guideline and not a hard and fast rule.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
The DMG has rules for determining the CR of a monster from its stats.
CR is odd though - the Challenge Rating of a monster is exactly that - it's purpose is to inform a DM on how difficult an encounter is, so that they can provide a challenge to their players without making it too difficult. From there, because CR provides a guide on how tough a monster is, it's been used in several other places, such as druid wildshape and cleric destroy undead.
It perhaps seems a little odd that putting armour on your skeleton and giving it a decent weapon would increase its resistance to destroy undead, but if the equipment improves the stats of the skeleton sufficiently to boost its CR, then it seems reasonable and, as you mention, its expensive to do this.
Overall I'd say it's up to the DM how they choose to handle this.
As an interesting exercise (because I may be thinking of using a Necromancer bad guy in a game):
The humble Skeleton is only CR 1/4.
Let's take the equipment changes you proposed:
End result:
The DMG calculation of challenge rating, leads us to calculate:
Defensive Challenge rating (based on 23 hp) =1/8, however we check the AC, "If your monster’s AC is at least two points higher or lower than that number, adjust the challenge rating suggested by its hit points up or down by 1 for every 2 points of difference." and, as a typical 1/8 CR monster should have 13 AC, the AC of 18 our equipped skeleton has is 5 points higher, yielding +2 CR, for a defensive CR of 2.125
Offensive Challenge Rating (based on damage per round of 11) is a CR of 1. This gives a suggested attack bonus of +3, which is only a point off our +4, so doesn't change the CR.
Now we calculate the average of those, rounding up, which gives us a CR of 2.
Net result of that equipment and the necromancer's ability is our simple CR 1/8 skeleton is now CR 2!
That feels a little high to me, compared to other CR 2 undead like Minotaur Skeleton but that AC of 18 can make our skeleton pretty durable. If our party is 6th level, a 6th level fighter is going to have around +7 to hit (assuming +4 STR bonus from ASI), the fighter needs an 11 or higher on their d20 to hit the armoured skeleton.
Apologies for the lengthy post, this was as much my own musings as trying to help at all. :)
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Oh yeah, I did not catch that, good one!
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Thanks for your input!
I should probably specify that I will be using the necromancer as my player character and thus I don’t know the encounters yet. Since CR has some impacts that are pretty hard and fast, like what level of undead qualifies for the Cleric’s Destroy Undead feature, I’d love to know if it can increase from upgrading the creature to avoid having my horde of vastly improved Skeletons be dusted by a low level Cleric
Im fairly sure that Skeletons should be able to use finesse weapons like the short sword that they use in the Monster Manuel. And with the door opened for use of any weapon rapiers seem like the logical progression, being similar in use but with a longer blade.
Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
Only the DM for your game can answer that for you - I encourage you to talk to them about this in advance. :)
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
This was pretty much what I was looking for, thanks!
I like how you refer to it as an “Armored Skeleton” as it has changed slightly from the basic Skeleton with its new stats and uniform
In the original post I ran through the same calculations with my 8th level character and didn’t quite make it to CR 2 (admittedly using an online CR calculator) but I like the idea of the CR for your goons going up as you level up, keeping them from being Cleric-Fodder at higher levels. I’ll run it by my DM
it feels like this is RAW, seeing as the table for it lives in the DMG, but this might be another sad case of the “depends on the DM” that plagues the Necromancers.
Man raising an army of the dead is so much harder than throwing a fireball, those evokers have it easy.
Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
RAW the Necromancer's Thralls ability does not alter Challenge Rating, so they would be dust. I'm guessing that stereotypically they thought necromancers and clerics that would turn undead don't really see eye to eye.
That said, I don't think it would break the game for you if they would suffer from turn undead; the cleric could easily not use that feature and still be fine. All clerics have alternate uses for their Divine Smite, and if you're not up against undead, why would he use it? Since it's for a one off you could make it a lot easier and ask your dm if it would pose a problem because of the cleric's ability or not. If there are undead baddies, you could ask them if it's ok if your skeletons have turn resistance or something similar?
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Does it say this somewhere? The official sources say that CR is based off of a formula (that can be finagled) and when the upgraded Skeletons are plugged into the formula they come out as a higher CR than they did without the buffs they get by being summoned by a better necromancer and the new gear. Is there a “a creature’s CR cannot be changed” rule written somewhere?
the perspective Clerics are not in the party, but are a possible antagonist for the party.
Learning is power, power corrupts, study hard be Evil.
I don't see a specific rule that covers whether the CR must be recalculated, but it is implied that this is the standard thing to do any time that a monster's stat block is changed.
One of the examples given in the DMG is as simple as changing the weapon of a Hobgoblin, so I would expect that a weapon change and equipping armour onto a skeleton also qualifies.
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
I agree with Stormknight,
The best way I can describe it is the rules don't explicitly say you can't give them better equipment, but they also don't say anything about you not being able to do it. This leaves it firmly in "GM fiat" territory. It's like how mounts aren't technically proficient in barding (armor), but it's assumed you can put barding on a warhorse or dog as a mount.
I love that Stormknight started calculating what an undead in improved armor's CR would be. I think that's possibly more work than anyone is planning on doing, but it was rather interesting.
That said I've always been in favor of building Necromancer Barbie's Malibu Dream Horde.
As a note. Skeletons don't have muscle and skin on their bones. Your bones only make up about 15% of your body weight. So you'll want a lot of layers of cloth wrappings to bulk out the body so the armor can be worn.
Thinking about that... If you assume the "average" human is 150, that means the "average" skeleton weighs 23 lbs?!