I had a question about the Staff of the Woodlands in combination with Shillelagh.
One of the effects of Staff of the Woodlands reads; This staff can be wielded as a magic quarterstaff that grants a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it. While holding it, you have a +2 bonus to spell attack rolls. So if I would attack with it normally it would be my Strength (+1) and the +2 from the staff. So +3 to hit.
With Shillelagh; The wood of a club or quarterstaff you are holding is imbued with nature's power. For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon's damage die becomes a d8. The weapon also becomes magical, if it isn't already. The spell ends if you cast it again or if you let go of the weapon.
Shillelagh would allow me to roll my Spell Attack which is +7. ( 5 + 2 from wielding the Staff of the Woodland) If I attack with The staff of the Woodlands, with Shillelagh active, which is a +7 to hit from spell attack , does it also adds the +2 from the Staff of the Woodlands itself since it grants a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the Staff of Woodlands. So a +9 to hit? Or would it just be a +7?
It would just be the +7. When you make an attack with a shillelagh it is not a “spell attack,” it still counts as a “melee weapon attack.” You can just use your Spellcasting ability instead of Str.
That said, I'm sure plenty of DMs allow it, and Sposta's right about the attack.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
A little too heavy on the semantics. They are basically saying this item IS a quarterstaff for all intents and purposes.
"This staff can be wielded as a magic quarterstaff": Bad wording, it is a quarterstaff. "If you expend the last charge, roll a d20. On a 1, the staff loses its properties and becomes a nonmagical quarterstaff". Does it transform into a quarterstaff when it loses it's magical properties? No, it is a quarterstaff.
A little too heavy on the semantics. They are basically saying this item IS a quarterstaff for all intents and purposes.
"This staff can be wielded as a magic quarterstaff": Bad wording, it is a quarterstaff. "If you expend the last charge, roll a d20. On a 1, the staff loses its properties and becomes a nonmagical quarterstaff". Does it transform into a quarterstaff when it loses it's magical properties? No, it is a quarterstaff.
Yeah, that was my reading of it too. I believe that this is RAI.
Yeah, I don't disagree that's probably what the RAI is; just pointing out what the RAW is since that matters.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
RAW is straight-forward... the item is a Staff, and it is not a Quarterstaff. What it can currently be wielded like, and what it becomes after burning all charges & rolling a 1 on the d20 doesn't change what the item is now.
Yes, I know that's BS, and a lot of us know that from the recent thread about spellcasting foci, staves, the quarterstaff, and this specific staff. There's a lot going on, and WotC did not do a great job of keeping things consistent.
If they intended this to be a quarterstaff that also acts as a focus, they ought to have used Quarterstaff as the actual base item with the text saying it can be used as a spellcasting focus while attuned.
[edit] And that's exactly how I would treat this item at my table too: a magical Quarterstaff that is also a focus.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Oddly enough, exactly what a quarterstaff is is not defined in the RAW. The only stats are its value, weight, and damage...even the item description on D&D Beyond does not describe it except to say you can use proficiency bonuses if you are proficient with it (the PH provides no actual description specific to the weapon at all beyond the aforementioned stats).
Because they don't actually define it; I would rule that anything that can be explicitly used "as a quarterstaff" is a quarterstaff (and the magic staff general rules in the DMG say that unless otherwise stated, all staves can be used as a quarterstaff), as there is no actual description of "quarterstaff" to use to distinguish it.
Under this interpretation, all staves (unless stated to be otherwise) are quarterstaves, but not all quarterstaves are staves. But either way, so long as it is made of wood, shillelagh would work on it.
Oddly enough, exactly what a quarterstaff is is not defined in the RAW. The only stats are its value, weight, and damage...even the item description on D&D Beyond does not describe it except to say you can use proficiency bonuses if you are proficient with it (the PH provides no actual description specific to the weapon at all beyond the aforementioned stats).
That's exactly how every single weapon is defined in DDB, so no that does not mean any staff is a quarterstaff. The Quarterstaff is a specific type of melee weapon that is distinct from every other specific type of melee weapon, as is the case with the Shortsword, Longsword, Glaive, etc.
The only things that can (by RAW, not necessarily RAI) be treated as if they are a Quarterstaff are: the Quarterstaff itself, magic weapons with the Quarterstaff base item type, and magical staves that say they are a quarterstaff (not simply wielded as one). Of this latter category, there is only the Skyblinder Staff, yet that does establish a precedent.
By extension of the Improvised Weapons rule, a DM may decide that any Staff can be wielded (allowing the use of your proficiency bonus) as an improvised Quarterstaff, but that's as far as RAW goes. An improvised weapon does not actually become a weapon of that item type, and that's an important distinction for determining whether it can fulfill prerequisites for abilities & spells. I think there's a strong RAI argument for allowing an improvised weapon to fulfill related prerequisites, but that's not spelled out in the RAW.
[edit] I do also take my own advice with the non-improvised RAI here: I personally consider the staves which say they can be wielded as a Quarterstaff to actually be a Quarterstaff that can also act as a spellcasting focus.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sposta, so nowit is your opinion that the Staff of the Woodlands is a Quarterstaff, despite being a "Staff" type item and calling itself a "staff" instead of a "quarterstaff"? Does that mean you now take the position that it can't be used as a Druidic Focus? I'm failing to follow the twists and turns of your "a staff is a quarterstaff but a quarterstaff isn't a staff but this particular staff is a quarterstaff and not a staff but can be used as a staff" logic.
Any Staff or Wooden Staff could also be used as a Quarterstaff. That doesn’t necessarily mean that they are quarterstaffs, just a “counts as” kinda thing. But I think “counts as” is close enough.
That does not necessarily make the inverse also true.
One supposes that, any Staff that is made of wood could also be a “counts as” for a Wooden Staff. I guess the inverse could also be potentially true then as well that any Wooden Staff is also a Staff.
Although, one could also argue that the difference between Druidic and Arcane foci is imparted during their creation. 🤷♂️ I don’t think we have enough RAW to go either way specifically on this point.
But Staff of the Woodlands specifically mentions its use as a Quarterstaff. And it also specifically mentions reverting to one when it is spent. It also specifically calls itself out as being for Druids specifically, so, one presumes a RAI that it should have specifically been called as a Wooden Staff instead of just Staff in the description.
My personal supposition is that either:
Somebody at WotC played fast and loose with their wording. Not a shocker.
Somebody decided to make Wooden Staffs a separate thing and never told the person writing the magic item rules. Or at least not until after this one got written and it slipped through. Also would not be a shocker.
Staff of the Woodlands just sounds cooler than Wooden Staff of the Woodlands and somebody got confused or forgot about the difference when the wrote it. Also would not be a shocker.
But basically, here’s the flow: All Wooden Staffs are also Staffs, and all Staffs are also Quarterstaffs. But that workflow is non-reversible, like my raincoat. (Gosh I hope someone gets that reference.)
All staves are not quarterstaves. There are many magical staves that do not mention being, or being used as, or becoming a quarterstaff at all. That distinction stands in both RAW and RAI.
RAI, I agree all wooden staves are regular staves (as a spellcasting focus) from the discussion in the other thread.
RAW & RAI, some staves are quarterstaves; Skyblinder Staff explicitly, and possibly the ones which say they can be wielded as one. The ones that don't mention anything? Not quarterstaves. The mundane Staff and Wooden Staff? Not quarterstaves; they are purely spellcasting foci. The only leeway here is in how you personally view improvised weapons.
Yes, WotC really screwed things up when it comes to what-doubles-as-what-and-when. My own view (as above, and only at my own table) is that any of the magical staves which say they are or can be wielded as a Quarterstaff really truly are a Quarterstaff base item that is also a spellcasting focus (which is how they should have been created to begin with). The ones that don't say they can be used as a quarterstaff are only a spellcasting focus.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
All staves are not quarterstaves. There are many magical staves that do not mention being, or being used as, or becoming a quarterstaff at all. That distinction stands in both RAW and RAI.
RAI, I agree all wooden staves are regular staves (as a spellcasting focus) from the discussion in the other thread.
RAW & RAI, some staves are quarterstaves; Skyblinder Staff explicitly, and possibly the ones which say they can be wielded as one. The ones that don't mention anything? Not quarterstaves. The mundane Staff and Wooden Staff? Not quarterstaves; they are purely spellcasting foci. The only leeway here is in how you personally view improvised weapons.
Yes, WotC really screwed things up when it comes to what-doubles-as-what-and-when. My own view (as above, and only at my own table) is that any of the magical staves which say they are or can be wielded as a Quarterstaff really truly are a Quarterstaff base item that is also a spellcasting focus (which is how they should have been created to begin with). The ones that don't say they can be used as a quarterstaff are only a spellcasting focus.
"@JeremyECrawford Can I use a Staff of Frost as Quarterstaff (the text didn't say "you can")? If yes, it does count as a magic melee weapon?" ~@DerynDraconis
"A magic staff can be used as a quarterstaff, unless its text says otherwise (see DMG, 140). It is a magic weapon. #DnD" ~@JeremyCrawford
From the DMG (pg140):
... Unless a staff's description says otherwise, a staff can be used as a quarterstaff.
Okily-dokily, so every Staff & Wooden Staff is also a Quarterstaff, except when they aren't, and do any actually say they aren't? Great job WotC...
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Okily-dokily, so every Staff & Wooden Staff is also a Quarterstaff, except when they aren't, and do any actually say they aren't? Great job WotC...
Ding ding ding!!! Now ya got it! Aren’t they (WotC) so clever. 🙄
Yeah... so great
And they can't even follow their own guidelines... as far as I can see, there are zero magic staves which say they are not a quarterstaff, yet there are a ton that specifically reference being or being used as one.
Oh, and there's also the Voyager Staff that explicitly is a Quarterstaff.... so there's two explicit quarterstaff-staves, a bunch of implicit quarterstaff-staves, a bunch of staves with no mention of quarterstaff, and zero explicitly non-quarterstaff-staves. For-****s-Sake.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Seems like an opportunity for someone to create a new magic item, though I'm struggling to imagine anything that could be called a staff with the durability of a magic item that couldn't be used to beat people with, unless the writer were deliberately messing with people. Maybe a cursed item, or a fragile, campaign-specific relic that is used as a plot device.
Of course, that is outside the scope of "Rules & Game Mechanics".
Yuuup... sometimes, at the end of the day, the answer is simply "Jesus-*******-Christ, WotC writers are the worst".
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
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I had a question about the Staff of the Woodlands in combination with Shillelagh.
One of the effects of Staff of the Woodlands reads;
This staff can be wielded as a magic quarterstaff that grants a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it. While holding it, you have a +2 bonus to spell attack rolls.
So if I would attack with it normally it would be my Strength (+1) and the +2 from the staff. So +3 to hit.
With Shillelagh; The wood of a club or quarterstaff you are holding is imbued with nature's power. For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon's damage die becomes a d8. The weapon also becomes magical, if it isn't already. The spell ends if you cast it again or if you let go of the weapon.
Shillelagh would allow me to roll my Spell Attack which is +7. ( 5 + 2 from wielding the Staff of the Woodland)
If I attack with The staff of the Woodlands, with Shillelagh active, which is a +7 to hit from spell attack , does it also adds the +2 from the Staff of the Woodlands itself since it grants a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the Staff of Woodlands. So a +9 to hit? Or would it just be a +7?
Hope someone can help clear this up:)
Thanks in advance!
It would just be the +7. When you make an attack with a shillelagh it is not a “spell attack,” it still counts as a “melee weapon attack.” You can just use your Spellcasting ability instead of Str.
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Also just want to point out that by RAW you can't use Shillelagh with Staff of the Woodlands. It's a Staff, not a Quarterstaff. Being able to wield it as a quarterstaff doesn't make it one.
That said, I'm sure plenty of DMs allow it, and Sposta's right about the attack.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
A little too heavy on the semantics. They are basically saying this item IS a quarterstaff for all intents and purposes.
"This staff can be wielded as a magic quarterstaff": Bad wording, it is a quarterstaff. "If you expend the last charge, roll a d20![]()
. On a 1, the staff loses its properties and becomes a nonmagical quarterstaff". Does it transform into a quarterstaff when it loses it's magical properties? No, it is a quarterstaff.
Yeah, that was my reading of it too. I believe that this is RAI.
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Yeah, I don't disagree that's probably what the RAI is; just pointing out what the RAW is since that matters.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
That’s still a noodley distinction. I could see RAW being decided either way on that one.
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Noodly distinctions are a dime-a-dozen with 5e :/
RAW is straight-forward... the item is a Staff, and it is not a Quarterstaff. What it can currently be wielded like, and what it becomes after burning all charges & rolling a 1 on the d20 doesn't change what the item is now.
Yes, I know that's BS, and a lot of us know that from the recent thread about spellcasting foci, staves, the quarterstaff, and this specific staff. There's a lot going on, and WotC did not do a great job of keeping things consistent.
If they intended this to be a quarterstaff that also acts as a focus, they ought to have used Quarterstaff as the actual base item with the text saying it can be used as a spellcasting focus while attuned.
[edit] And that's exactly how I would treat this item at my table too: a magical Quarterstaff that is also a focus.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Oddly enough, exactly what a quarterstaff is is not defined in the RAW. The only stats are its value, weight, and damage...even the item description on D&D Beyond does not describe it except to say you can use proficiency bonuses if you are proficient with it (the PH provides no actual description specific to the weapon at all beyond the aforementioned stats).
Because they don't actually define it; I would rule that anything that can be explicitly used "as a quarterstaff" is a quarterstaff (and the magic staff general rules in the DMG say that unless otherwise stated, all staves can be used as a quarterstaff), as there is no actual description of "quarterstaff" to use to distinguish it.
Under this interpretation, all staves (unless stated to be otherwise) are quarterstaves, but not all quarterstaves are staves. But either way, so long as it is made of wood, shillelagh would work on it.
That's exactly how every single weapon is defined in DDB, so no that does not mean any staff is a quarterstaff. The Quarterstaff is a specific type of melee weapon that is distinct from every other specific type of melee weapon, as is the case with the Shortsword, Longsword, Glaive, etc.
The only things that can (by RAW, not necessarily RAI) be treated as if they are a Quarterstaff are: the Quarterstaff itself, magic weapons with the Quarterstaff base item type, and magical staves that say they are a quarterstaff (not simply wielded as one). Of this latter category, there is only the Skyblinder Staff, yet that does establish a precedent.
By extension of the Improvised Weapons rule, a DM may decide that any Staff can be wielded (allowing the use of your proficiency bonus) as an improvised Quarterstaff, but that's as far as RAW goes. An improvised weapon does not actually become a weapon of that item type, and that's an important distinction for determining whether it can fulfill prerequisites for abilities & spells. I think there's a strong RAI argument for allowing an improvised weapon to fulfill related prerequisites, but that's not spelled out in the RAW.
[edit] I do also take my own advice with the non-improvised RAI here: I personally consider the staves which say they can be wielded as a Quarterstaff to actually be a Quarterstaff that can also act as a spellcasting focus.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sposta, so now it is your opinion that the Staff of the Woodlands is a Quarterstaff, despite being a "Staff" type item and calling itself a "staff" instead of a "quarterstaff"? Does that mean you now take the position that it can't be used as a Druidic Focus? I'm failing to follow the twists and turns of your "a staff is a quarterstaff but a quarterstaff isn't a staff but this particular staff is a quarterstaff and not a staff but can be used as a staff" logic.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Any Staff or Wooden Staff could also be used as a Quarterstaff. That doesn’t necessarily mean that they are quarterstaffs, just a “counts as” kinda thing. But I think “counts as” is close enough.
That does not necessarily make the inverse also true.
One supposes that, any Staff that is made of wood could also be a “counts as” for a Wooden Staff. I guess the inverse could also be potentially true then as well that any Wooden Staff is also a Staff.
Although, one could also argue that the difference between Druidic and Arcane foci is imparted during their creation. 🤷♂️ I don’t think we have enough RAW to go either way specifically on this point.
But Staff of the Woodlands specifically mentions its use as a Quarterstaff. And it also specifically mentions reverting to one when it is spent. It also specifically calls itself out as being for Druids specifically, so, one presumes a RAI that it should have specifically been called as a Wooden Staff instead of just Staff in the description.
My personal supposition is that either:
But basically, here’s the flow: All Wooden Staffs are also Staffs, and all Staffs are also Quarterstaffs. But that workflow is non-reversible, like my raincoat. (Gosh I hope someone gets that reference.)
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All staves are not quarterstaves. There are many magical staves that do not mention being, or being used as, or becoming a quarterstaff at all. That distinction stands in both RAW and RAI.
RAI, I agree all wooden staves are regular staves (as a spellcasting focus) from the discussion in the other thread.
RAW & RAI, some staves are quarterstaves; Skyblinder Staff explicitly, and possibly the ones which say they can be wielded as one. The ones that don't mention anything? Not quarterstaves. The mundane Staff and Wooden Staff? Not quarterstaves; they are purely spellcasting foci. The only leeway here is in how you personally view improvised weapons.
Yes, WotC really screwed things up when it comes to what-doubles-as-what-and-when. My own view (as above, and only at my own table) is that any of the magical staves which say they are or can be wielded as a Quarterstaff really truly are a Quarterstaff base item that is also a spellcasting focus (which is how they should have been created to begin with). The ones that don't say they can be used as a quarterstaff are only a spellcasting focus.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Not according to the Devs, namely Mr. Mearls:
https://mobile.twitter.com/GamerJosh/status/509454115861434368
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This Sage Advice may help.
From the DMG (pg140):
Okily-dokily, so every Staff & Wooden Staff is also a Quarterstaff, except when they aren't, and do any actually say they aren't? Great job WotC...
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Ding ding ding!!! Now ya got it! Aren’t they (WotC) so clever. 🙄
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Yeah... so great
And they can't even follow their own guidelines... as far as I can see, there are zero magic staves which say they are not a quarterstaff, yet there are a ton that specifically reference being or being used as one.
Oh, and there's also the Voyager Staff that explicitly is a Quarterstaff.... so there's two explicit quarterstaff-staves, a bunch of implicit quarterstaff-staves, a bunch of staves with no mention of quarterstaff, and zero explicitly non-quarterstaff-staves. For-****s-Sake.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Seems like an opportunity for someone to create a new magic item, though I'm struggling to imagine anything that could be called a staff with the durability of a magic item that couldn't be used to beat people with, unless the writer were deliberately messing with people. Maybe a cursed item, or a fragile, campaign-specific relic that is used as a plot device.
Of course, that is outside the scope of "Rules & Game Mechanics".
Yuuup... sometimes, at the end of the day, the answer is simply "Jesus-*******-Christ, WotC writers are the worst".
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.