I need a little assistance in how to proceed with a narrative I have created for my RotF campaign. I have a character playing the Elusive Paramour secret. Since there aren't any direct arcs related to the secret in the book, I have created an assassin that is currently stalking him. She is slowly working to gain his trust so that his guard will be down. So far so good, what I've written for her has fooled the entire party! My endgame is to have her sneak into his room, saunter over to him, whisper in his ear, and then stab him with a dagger.
My question is; if she is using the assassinate perk for Rogues, would this count as surprised? The idea is he wouldn't know she was there to kill him, and he trusts her; maybe even cares for her. To me, it's the definition of surprise. But, there wouldn't be a combat round, because he doesn't see her as a threat. So, what do I do here? Any thoughts?
Surprise rules are clunky and don't even apply to many "surprise attack" situations that would work IRL.
But players should always have an opportunity to react to something and it is easier to accept if they roll. So my house rule advice is to have them roll perception at disadvantage against the assassin's "passive stealth" (mod +10). If they pass, make them half asleep and roll initiative when the dagger is readied. If the assassin wins, attack without surprise. If they win they have an opportunity to avoid the attack. If they fail the perception check, make the surprise attack and roll for initiative, but regardless of initiative rolls start on player's turn after the attack.
I think this would be a good case for rolling Insight vs. Deception instead of Perception vs. Stealth (or... Insight (Cha) vs. Stealth (Cha)? or whatever), but otherwise, yes I agree that the player should always be given a chance to succeed at a check before being ambushed and dealt damage (or even killed). I think that the situation itself is great, and I wouldn't worry about whether your narrative scene fits the mechanical requirements of combat ambushes, and I might even say that she gets her stab in on him either way and it just hits... but at least let him roll a check to see whether she's doing massive ambush damage with that stab, or just grazing him as he leaps to action. The amount of damage doesn't even need to be tied to her combat damage, since you're trying to set a specific scene... maybe he takes 40 and is poisoned if he fails the check, or takes 10 and gets a save vs. poison if he passes it, and then roll initiative? Define the boundaries of your scene ahead of time, chaos and chance are all well and fine in combat, but don't let weird dice rolls back you into a corner that undercuts a narrative payoff you've spent a lot of time setting up.
Being surprised in 5E doesn't prevent combat from starting:
"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends."
IOW, by the rules combat starts regardless of surprise, with everyone rolling initiative, but surprised characters can't move or take an action. In this particular situation the attacker will score an automatic crit if they hit surprised targets during that first round (and only that first round) due to the Assassinate perk. Characters do get a turn when their initiative comes up even if they are surprised (they just can't do anything with it), so whether the assassin gets advantage on attack or not depends only on the initiative order and not on surprise. The advantage part of the perk and the crit part of the perk are completely separate: the assassin can have both, either nor neither depending on how initiative and surprise turned out.
All that said, here's how I'd do it. Since he trusts her and has no reason to be wary of deceptive behaviour, I'd use a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) vs Wisdom (Perception) check to determine surprise (to see if she's able to ready the dagger without him noticing). I might apply a bonus or advantage depending on circumstances, but that's the basic check I'd go with. From there, just go with the established rules: roll initiative, if the assassin has higher initiative she gets advantage on the attack and if she won the check and the target is surprised a hit becomes a crit (and the target can't act on his first turn).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I think that rolling Initiative probably sucks some of the wind out of the narrative moment of surprise, which is the main argument for sort of fudging things a little bit until the blow is struck.
I think that rolling Initiative probably sucks some of the wind out of the narrative moment of surprise, which is the main argument for sort of fudging things a little bit until the blow is struck.
The DM doesn't have to ask for or declare initiative until the attack is being made, and at that point the jig is up and they've had their narrative moment. Same with the check for surprise.
All the narrative delivery can be done prior to the mechanical stuff and the adjudication. The DM can describe her undulating over, an intriguing smile playing on her lips, to sit down close by and lean in to whisper something in his ear. Her hot, sweet breath caresses his cheek and then... suddenly her expression turns feral, and she drives a hidden blade towards his ear!
And only then, after everyone's settled just a bit after the initial shock but adrenaline is still pumping, then the DM asks for a Perception check to see if he might have realized something at the last moment, and to roll initiative.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I need a little assistance in how to proceed with a narrative I have created for my RotF campaign. I have a character playing the Elusive Paramour secret. Since there aren't any direct arcs related to the secret in the book, I have created an assassin that is currently stalking him. She is slowly working to gain his trust so that his guard will be down. So far so good, what I've written for her has fooled the entire party! My endgame is to have her sneak into his room, saunter over to him, whisper in his ear, and then stab him with a dagger.
My question is; if she is using the assassinate perk for Rogues, would this count as surprised? The idea is he wouldn't know she was there to kill him, and he trusts her; maybe even cares for her. To me, it's the definition of surprise. But, there wouldn't be a combat round, because he doesn't see her as a threat. So, what do I do here? Any thoughts?
Surprise rules are clunky and don't even apply to many "surprise attack" situations that would work IRL.
But players should always have an opportunity to react to something and it is easier to accept if they roll. So my house rule advice is to have them roll perception at disadvantage against the assassin's "passive stealth" (mod +10). If they pass, make them half asleep and roll initiative when the dagger is readied. If the assassin wins, attack without surprise. If they win they have an opportunity to avoid the attack. If they fail the perception check, make the surprise attack and roll for initiative, but regardless of initiative rolls start on player's turn after the attack.
I think this would be a good case for rolling Insight vs. Deception instead of Perception vs. Stealth (or... Insight (Cha) vs. Stealth (Cha)? or whatever), but otherwise, yes I agree that the player should always be given a chance to succeed at a check before being ambushed and dealt damage (or even killed). I think that the situation itself is great, and I wouldn't worry about whether your narrative scene fits the mechanical requirements of combat ambushes, and I might even say that she gets her stab in on him either way and it just hits... but at least let him roll a check to see whether she's doing massive ambush damage with that stab, or just grazing him as he leaps to action. The amount of damage doesn't even need to be tied to her combat damage, since you're trying to set a specific scene... maybe he takes 40 and is poisoned if he fails the check, or takes 10 and gets a save vs. poison if he passes it, and then roll initiative? Define the boundaries of your scene ahead of time, chaos and chance are all well and fine in combat, but don't let weird dice rolls back you into a corner that undercuts a narrative payoff you've spent a lot of time setting up.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Being surprised in 5E doesn't prevent combat from starting:
"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends."
IOW, by the rules combat starts regardless of surprise, with everyone rolling initiative, but surprised characters can't move or take an action. In this particular situation the attacker will score an automatic crit if they hit surprised targets during that first round (and only that first round) due to the Assassinate perk. Characters do get a turn when their initiative comes up even if they are surprised (they just can't do anything with it), so whether the assassin gets advantage on attack or not depends only on the initiative order and not on surprise. The advantage part of the perk and the crit part of the perk are completely separate: the assassin can have both, either nor neither depending on how initiative and surprise turned out.
All that said, here's how I'd do it. Since he trusts her and has no reason to be wary of deceptive behaviour, I'd use a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) vs Wisdom (Perception) check to determine surprise (to see if she's able to ready the dagger without him noticing). I might apply a bonus or advantage depending on circumstances, but that's the basic check I'd go with. From there, just go with the established rules: roll initiative, if the assassin has higher initiative she gets advantage on the attack and if she won the check and the target is surprised a hit becomes a crit (and the target can't act on his first turn).
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I think that rolling Initiative probably sucks some of the wind out of the narrative moment of surprise, which is the main argument for sort of fudging things a little bit until the blow is struck.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The DM doesn't have to ask for or declare initiative until the attack is being made, and at that point the jig is up and they've had their narrative moment. Same with the check for surprise.
All the narrative delivery can be done prior to the mechanical stuff and the adjudication. The DM can describe her undulating over, an intriguing smile playing on her lips, to sit down close by and lean in to whisper something in his ear. Her hot, sweet breath caresses his cheek and then... suddenly her expression turns feral, and she drives a hidden blade towards his ear!
And only then, after everyone's settled just a bit after the initial shock but adrenaline is still pumping, then the DM asks for a Perception check to see if he might have realized something at the last moment, and to roll initiative.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].