In looking over this subclass, I find it hard to understand why Intelligence--from a perspective of proportional usage--is the designated spellcasting ability for the Rune Magic feature.
This subclass isn't an actual caster subclass like Eldritch Knight, which is far more (comparatively) dependent on a particular spellcasting ability for their features, and actually uses the spellcasting ability regularly.
Rune Knight doesn't ever actually learn spells. The only things that actually use the class' spellcasting ability are two of the Runes (Fire & Stone), and the Defensive Runes level 7 feature. That's all. It just seems odd to me that Intelligence was chosen, since so very little actually depends on it. Yes, it's a trade-off, but a very oddly lopsided one. No, I don't think it should be Strength or Dexterity.
Wouldn't Wisdom (Constitution would probably be too min/max-ish) at least make a bit more mechanical sense? Even a Rune Knight that never plans on using the invoked ability of Fire/Stone is likely to at least have some points in Wisdom.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Given that the Fighter would have to go out of their way to learn Runic magic (and giants tend to consider small folk to be maug by default), it makes sense that some level of intelligence would make you more effective. Rune magic isn't instinctive for small folk, and they certainly don't have it naturally.
Thanks for the reply! I have no issues with Intelligence thematically. I'm only referencing this in the scope of pure mechanical subclass design: Intelligence is a poor choice for this specific set of mechanical interactions.
When a class/subclass has abilities that rely on a Spell Save DC, the ability score it is based on becomes incredibly important. If you can't stick the ability on a target, what's the point?That ability score is usually priority #1 for full casters, and #2-3 for half/mixed-focus casters. Rune Knight is none of these things, and the mechanical interaction between a tertiary stat (for a typical Fighter) and the two limited-use abilities that call for saving throws is just not good design.
Intelligence is intrinsically utilized by a definitive majority of features that a Fighter acquires by specializing as an Eldritch Knight. The shifting of stat balance (from physical stats to mental stats) is an equitable trade; the subclass actually uses the stat. An Eldritch Knight could feasibly focus on Intelligence and attack with cantrip spells all day long. It's certainly not optimal by any measure, but it can work.
Intelligence is intrinsically utilized by a definitive minority of features that a Fighter acquires by specializing as an Rune Knight. You have--if you even take them--two limited-use abilities that are based on Intelligence. They are consumed whether the effect works or not. A subclass should not be designed around a player rolling (and rolling well) their ability scores; point-buy & array are standardized for balance in design.
A typical character won't have enough points to make using the features of this subclass effective, nor does the subclass have enough features to make prioritizing (even just as stat #2) more points in Intelligence worth it.
Unless they update with a lot more Rune Magic abilities, perhaps not using an ability score at all in the Spell Save DC formula would be more appropriate: 13 + proficiency bonus.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I'm pretty sure that all the Fighter Subclasses that dip into a mental stat all do Intelligence.
If you think about it, it actually makes a bit of design sense.
Imagine for a second that you are not planning out your build in advance, you are going in blind and have no idea what Subclass you may eventually be inspired to take at level 3.
You put your primary points into Str/Dex, then your secondary focus on Con. But now you have to choose the home for that third stat. You put it into Intelligence.
Now when you hit level 3 the choice of Intelligence has opened the door for Eldritch Knight, Arcane Archer (if Dex), or Rune Knight and you have enough spare ASI to get the stat respectably high. I'm struggling to recall if any Fighter subclass is queued off of Wisdom or Charisma in such a fashion, but I'm leaning toward no.
I'm pretty sure that all the Fighter Subclasses that dip into a mental stat all do Intelligence.
If you think about it, it actually makes a bit of design sense.
Imagine for a second that you are not planning out your build in advance, you are going in blind and have no idea what Subclass you may eventually be inspired to take at level 3.
You put your primary points into Str/Dex, then your secondary focus on Con. But now you have to choose the home for that third stat. You put it into Intelligence.
Now when you hit level 3 the choice of Intelligence has opened the door for Eldritch Knight, Arcane Archer (if Dex), or Rune Knight and you have enough spare ASI to get the stat respectably high. I'm struggling to recall if any Fighter subclass is queued off of Wisdom or Charisma in such a fashion, but I'm leaning toward no.
battlemasters tends to do well with wisdom or charisma or both.
I'm pretty sure that all the Fighter Subclasses that dip into a mental stat all do Intelligence.
If you think about it, it actually makes a bit of design sense.
Imagine for a second that you are not planning out your build in advance, you are going in blind and have no idea what Subclass you may eventually be inspired to take at level 3.
You put your primary points into Str/Dex, then your secondary focus on Con. But now you have to choose the home for that third stat. You put it into Intelligence.
Now when you hit level 3 the choice of Intelligence has opened the door for Eldritch Knight, Arcane Archer (if Dex), or Rune Knight and you have enough spare ASI to get the stat respectably high. I'm struggling to recall if any Fighter subclass is queued off of Wisdom or Charisma in such a fashion, but I'm leaning toward no.
battlemasters tends to do well with wisdom or charisma or both.
basically Battlemaster is the answer for you.
menacing. Rallying.
The Battlemaster Maneuver save DC is based on your strength or Dex score.
Menacing targets the opponents wisdom score, but the DC is still based on your Str or Dex, having a high wisdom yourself does not add anything to the effectiveness of the skill.
As for Rally, I had not forgotten about it. It just didn't count in my consideration, the importance of adding a single modifier of up to +5 to Rally or Inspiring Leader does not, in my opinion, come even remotely close to the level of INT on the Fighters with Spell save DCs. Especially in the 'non-planned' Fighter example I was listing.
The Samurai randomly gets a bonus to Charisma (Persuasion) checks equal to his/her Wisdom modifier under some situations, as well as proficiency in Wisdom saves, if I remember correctly. So there's some precedence to connecting Wisdom to the Fighter.,
They avoid wisdom for spells because that is going into the territory of the ranger. While Rune magic in the past had been wisdom based primarily. There would be considerable conflict between ranger and the fighter.
Also I would assume the Eldritch Knight was used as the backdrop, because the rune knight is a better setup with utility than the arcane archer.
They avoid wisdom for spells because that is going into the territory of the ranger. While Rune magic in the past had been wisdom based primarily. There would be considerable conflict between ranger and the fighter.
... what? 😂 Please elaborate.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The V3 Mystic was so poorly received as a whole by the community that WotC decided to scrap it and start over. They sifted through for what they could salvage and started two different projects sometime back in (early-mid?) 2018. One of those projects was to develop a new psionic Sub for each PHB Class, that is what has been published recently through UA.
The other project was Mike Mearls starting over basically from scratch with a new “Psion” Class. He was keeping the general idea of the Awakened and the Nomad as Subs but actually giving them each a clearer concept. He was also developing two new additional Subs that would also have clearer character concepts. His new Psion would have switched from Talents and Disciplines to a “more user friendly” Cantrip/Spell mechanic more inline with everything else in D&D, but they would have all been completely unique to the Psion, and Psions would have been able to spend their Spell Slots to actually cast their versions of Cantrips at higher levels. (He was trying to figure out something that would have satisfied us old heads who remember playing Psionicist back in the day, but wouldn’t be too different from the existing magic mechanics so as not to “intimidate” newer players into not buying the product. I’m personally not sure that particular combination is possible since, as everything else in 5e has proven, there is no way to make everyone happy at the same time.)
The most recent thing I saw about it was on YouTube towards the end of last year. Then the whole “Zac fiasco” hit and no one has heard anything since about the Psion, and people have barely heard anything at all from Mearls either since he used his reaction to take a semipermanent Hide action. (Lead game designer class feature I think. Here is a link to everything he had been working on up until he pulled the proverbial blanket over his head.
The Rune Knight is one of the Psionic subclasses that was built using material salvaged from the wreckage that was the Mystic. People were discussing why the mechanics for it are the way they are. I thought it might help the conversation to understand that the Rune Knight (as well as all the other new UA Subclasses) were based off of the concept of Psionics, and that those new Subs, including the Rune Knight are going to become what replace Psionics in future publications. I was hoping to provide some context as to: why the Subclass was designed the way it was; what the Features were intended to represent; and what type of setting the Rune Knight was probably going to occupy.
I’m sorry for the inconvenience of providing information to the forum at large that might clarify the conversation moving forward. I would say that I won’t do it again, but I don’t want to lie to anyone.
The Rune Knight is one of the Psionic subclasses that was built using material salvaged from the wreckage that was the Mystic. People were discussing why the mechanics for it are the way they are. I thought it might help the conversation to understand that the Rune Knight (as well as all the other new UA Subclasses) were based off of the concept of Psionics, and that those new Subs, including the Rune Knight are going to become what replace Psionics in future publications. I was hoping to provide some context as to: why the Subclass was designed the way it was; what the Features were intended to represent; and what type of setting the Rune Knight was probably going to occupy.
I’m sorry for the inconvenience of providing information to the forum at large that might clarify the conversation moving forward. I would say that I won’t do it again, but I don’t want to lie to anyone.
Really? That's quite interesting. I'll have to dig through the old Mystic and see how it got twisted around into this new Rune Knight. Might explain some of the issues I have with the subclass as it stands now.
My apologies everyone, I am multitasking (poorly) and made a mistake. I juxtaposed the Rune Knights and the Psychic Warriors when I was looking for a thread on that. With so much coming out of UA recently it overloaded my old mind a bit and I mixed things up. My bad!
@Relux: You were right, I was wrong. Mia culpa! Please forgive me. 🙏
In looking over this subclass, I find it hard to understand why Intelligence--from a perspective of proportional usage--is the designated spellcasting ability for the Rune Magic feature.
This subclass isn't an actual caster subclass like Eldritch Knight, which is far more (comparatively) dependent on a particular spellcasting ability for their features, and actually uses the spellcasting ability regularly.
Rune Knight doesn't ever actually learn spells. The only things that actually use the class' spellcasting ability are two of the Runes (Fire & Stone), and the Defensive Runes level 7 feature. That's all. It just seems odd to me that Intelligence was chosen, since so very little actually depends on it. Yes, it's a trade-off, but a very oddly lopsided one. No, I don't think it should be Strength or Dexterity.
Wouldn't Wisdom (Constitution would probably be too min/max-ish) at least make a bit more mechanical sense? Even a Rune Knight that never plans on using the invoked ability of Fire/Stone is likely to at least have some points in Wisdom.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Given that the Fighter would have to go out of their way to learn Runic magic (and giants tend to consider small folk to be maug by default), it makes sense that some level of intelligence would make you more effective. Rune magic isn't instinctive for small folk, and they certainly don't have it naturally.
Thanks for the reply! I have no issues with Intelligence thematically. I'm only referencing this in the scope of pure mechanical subclass design: Intelligence is a poor choice for this specific set of mechanical interactions.
When a class/subclass has abilities that rely on a Spell Save DC, the ability score it is based on becomes incredibly important. If you can't stick the ability on a target, what's the point?That ability score is usually priority #1 for full casters, and #2-3 for half/mixed-focus casters. Rune Knight is none of these things, and the mechanical interaction between a tertiary stat (for a typical Fighter) and the two limited-use abilities that call for saving throws is just not good design.
Intelligence is intrinsically utilized by a definitive majority of features that a Fighter acquires by specializing as an Eldritch Knight. The shifting of stat balance (from physical stats to mental stats) is an equitable trade; the subclass actually uses the stat. An Eldritch Knight could feasibly focus on Intelligence and attack with cantrip spells all day long. It's certainly not optimal by any measure, but it can work.
Intelligence is intrinsically utilized by a definitive minority of features that a Fighter acquires by specializing as an Rune Knight. You have--if you even take them--two limited-use abilities that are based on Intelligence. They are consumed whether the effect works or not. A subclass should not be designed around a player rolling (and rolling well) their ability scores; point-buy & array are standardized for balance in design.
A typical character won't have enough points to make using the features of this subclass effective, nor does the subclass have enough features to make prioritizing (even just as stat #2) more points in Intelligence worth it.
Unless they update with a lot more Rune Magic abilities, perhaps not using an ability score at all in the Spell Save DC formula would be more appropriate: 13 + proficiency bonus.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I'm pretty sure that all the Fighter Subclasses that dip into a mental stat all do Intelligence.
If you think about it, it actually makes a bit of design sense.
Imagine for a second that you are not planning out your build in advance, you are going in blind and have no idea what Subclass you may eventually be inspired to take at level 3.
You put your primary points into Str/Dex, then your secondary focus on Con. But now you have to choose the home for that third stat. You put it into Intelligence.
Now when you hit level 3 the choice of Intelligence has opened the door for Eldritch Knight, Arcane Archer (if Dex), or Rune Knight and you have enough spare ASI to get the stat respectably high. I'm struggling to recall if any Fighter subclass is queued off of Wisdom or Charisma in such a fashion, but I'm leaning toward no.
battlemasters tends to do well with wisdom or charisma or both.
basically Battlemaster is the answer for you.
menacing. Rallying.
Blank
The Battlemaster Maneuver save DC is based on your strength or Dex score.
Menacing targets the opponents wisdom score, but the DC is still based on your Str or Dex, having a high wisdom yourself does not add anything to the effectiveness of the skill.
As for Rally, I had not forgotten about it. It just didn't count in my consideration, the importance of adding a single modifier of up to +5 to Rally or Inspiring Leader does not, in my opinion, come even remotely close to the level of INT on the Fighters with Spell save DCs. Especially in the 'non-planned' Fighter example I was listing.
The Samurai randomly gets a bonus to Charisma (Persuasion) checks equal to his/her Wisdom modifier under some situations, as well as proficiency in Wisdom saves, if I remember correctly. So there's some precedence to connecting Wisdom to the Fighter.,
Partway through the quest for absolute truth.
They avoid wisdom for spells because that is going into the territory of the ranger. While Rune magic in the past had been wisdom based primarily. There would be considerable conflict between ranger and the fighter.
Also I would assume the Eldritch Knight was used as the backdrop, because the rune knight is a better setup with utility than the arcane archer.
... what? 😂 Please elaborate.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The V3 Mystic was so poorly received as a whole by the community that WotC decided to scrap it and start over. They sifted through for what they could salvage and started two different projects sometime back in (early-mid?) 2018. One of those projects was to develop a new psionic Sub for each PHB Class, that is what has been published recently through UA.The other project was Mike Mearls starting over basically from scratch with a new “Psion” Class. He was keeping the general idea of the Awakened and the Nomad as Subs but actually giving them each a clearer concept. He was also developing two new additional Subs that would also have clearer character concepts. His new Psion would have switched from Talents and Disciplines to a “more user friendly” Cantrip/Spell mechanic more inline with everything else in D&D, but they would have all been completely unique to the Psion, and Psions would have been able to spend their Spell Slots to actually cast their versions of Cantrips at higher levels. (He was trying to figure out something that would have satisfied us old heads who remember playing Psionicist back in the day, but wouldn’t be too different from the existing magic mechanics so as not to “intimidate” newer players into not buying the product. I’m personally not sure that particular combination is possible since, as everything else in 5e has proven, there is no way to make everyone happy at the same time.)The most recent thing I saw about it was on YouTube towards the end of last year. Then the whole “Zac fiasco” hit and no one has heard anything since about the Psion, and people have barely heard anything at all from Mearls either since he used his reaction to take a semipermanent Hide action. (Lead game designer class feature I think. Here is a link to everything he had been working on up until he pulled the proverbial blanket over his head.DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
Uh... wrong thread @IamSposta?
Relux,The Rune Knight is one of the Psionic subclasses that was built using material salvaged from the wreckage that was the Mystic. People were discussing why the mechanics for it are the way they are. I thought it might help the conversation to understand that the Rune Knight (as well as all the other new UA Subclasses) were based off of the concept of Psionics, and that those new Subs, including the Rune Knight are going to become what replace Psionics in future publications. I was hoping to provide some context as to: why the Subclass was designed the way it was; what the Features were intended to represent; and what type of setting the Rune Knight was probably going to occupy.I’m sorry for the inconvenience of providing information to the forum at large that might clarify the conversation moving forward. I would say that I won’t do it again, but I don’t want to lie to anyone.DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
Really? That's quite interesting. I'll have to dig through the old Mystic and see how it got twisted around into this new Rune Knight. Might explain some of the issues I have with the subclass as it stands now.
My apologies everyone, I am multitasking (poorly) and made a mistake. I juxtaposed the Rune Knights and the Psychic Warriors when I was looking for a thread on that. With so much coming out of UA recently it overloaded my old mind a bit and I mixed things up. My bad!
@Relux: You were right, I was wrong. Mia culpa! Please forgive me. 🙏
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB