One of my players is using a Nomadic Mystic and I want to make sure I am interpreting the rules correctly. On page 4 under “Psionic Ability” it says:
Psionic Ability
Intelligence is your psionic ability for your psionic disciplines. You use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a psionic discipline or when making an attack roll with one.
Discipline save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
Discipline attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
Nothing anywhere in the disciplines ever explicitly calls for a “Melee/ranged Discipline Attack” in the way one would make a “Spell Attack.” The way I interpreting this is as follows: If he imbues his short bow/arrow with the Nomadic Arrow Discipline’s Speed Dart I am interpreting it that it counts as an attack called for by the discipline and therefore uses his Int instead of his Dex for the attack, and whenever he shoots his bow normally it uses his Dex as normal under the rules. Have I got it right or no?
If it’s an attack made with a discipline, then yes. I don’t know Speed Dart off the top of my head, but the way you describe it sounds like it is indeed “an attack made with one.”
Speed Dart (1–7 psi). As a bonus action, you imbue one ranged weapon you hold with psionic power. The next attack you make with it that hits before the end of the current turn deals an extra 1d10 psychic damage per psi point spent.
Actually in that case, I'd say it would NOT use Intelligence. The discipline itself doesn't actually involve making an attack. It just confers some benefit to the next normal attack you make.
Compare this to the language of Bestial Claws: "You manifest long claws for an instant and make a melee weapon attack against one creature within 5 feet of you. On a hit, this attack deals 1d10 slashing damage per psi point spent." The discipline itself makes the attack, so it would use Intelligence for the attack roll.
Actually in that case, I'd say it would NOT use Intelligence. The discipline itself doesn't actually involve making an attack. It just confers some benefit to the next normal attack you make.
Compare this to the language of Bestial Claws: "You manifest long claws for an instant and make a melee weapon attack against one creature within 5 feet of you. On a hit, this attack deals 1d10 slashing damage per psi point spent." The discipline itself makes the attack, so it would use Intelligence for the attack roll.
Even that one would still use Dex or Strength. It is a melee weapon attack, not a spell attack or a discipline attack. Consider the text found on booming blade:
"As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell’s range..."
The spell grants a melee weapon attack, which still uses the normal rules for using strength for the attack (or your choice of dex if the weapon is finesse).
Then look at that compared to Steel Wind Strike:
"You flourish the weapon used in the casting and then vanish to strike like the wind. Choose up to five creatures you can see within range. Make a melee spell attack against each target."
You still use the weapon, but it dictates that it is a Melee Spell Attack. So in this case it uses your spell caster ability modifier.
I'd imagine it is the same for Disciplines, it would say something along the lines of 'Make a melee discipline attack...' or the sort.
I'd rule in both cases you use either strength or dex depending on if the weapon has finesse.
Actually in that case, I'd say it would NOT use Intelligence. The discipline itself doesn't actually involve making an attack. It just confers some benefit to the next normal attack you make.
Compare this to the language of Bestial Claws: "You manifest long claws for an instant and make a melee weapon attack against one creature within 5 feet of you. On a hit, this attack deals 1d10 slashing damage per psi point spent." The discipline itself makes the attack, so it would use Intelligence for the attack roll.
Even that one would still use Dex or Strength. It is a melee weapon attack, not a spell attack or a discipline attack. Consider the text found on booming blade:
"As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell’s range..."
The spell grants a melee weapon attack, which still uses the normal rules for using strength for the attack (or your choice of dex if the weapon is finesse).
Then look at that compared to Steel Wind Strike:
"You flourish the weapon used in the casting and then vanish to strike like the wind. Choose up to five creatures you can see within range. Make a melee spell attack against each target."
You still use the weapon, but it dictates that it is a Melee Spell Attack. So in this case it uses your spell caster ability modifier.
I'd imagine it is the same for Disciplines, it would say something along the lines of 'Make a melee discipline attack...' or the sort.
I'd rule in both cases you use either strength or dex depending on if the weapon has finesse.
The "Psionic Ability" makes clear that Intelligence applies "when making an attack roll with [a discipline]." A melee weapon attack roll is still an attack roll. The specific text of Booming Blade actually separates the attack from the spell: with the same action you use to cast the spell, you also make a melee weapon attack, but the attack is not part of the spell per se. With Bestial Claws, the attack is very clearly the core function of the discipline. That's the difference.
Not one single Discipline actually calls for a “Melee/Ranged Discipline Attack” not a one. There has to be a line drawn somewhere, but where? Bestial claws does 1d10 Psychic Damage/Psi Point spent on a successful Melee Weapon Attack. Speed Dart does an additional 1d10 Psychic Damage/Psi Point Spent on a successful Ranged Weapon Attack. Since not on gorram thing in the entire 28 fracking pages ever calls for a “Discipline Attack Roll” the one seems as legitimate to me as the other. (Insert frustrated hair pulling meme here) 🤯🤬😭
Like I said, that is how I would rule it. Though to be fair I wouldn't allow deprecated UA material in my campaign to begin with, so I would never had have to make that ruling to begin with.
Not one single Discipline actually calls for a “Melee/Ranged Discipline Attack” not a one. There has to be a line drawn somewhere, but where? Bestial claws does 1d10 Psychic Damage/Psi Point spent on a successful Melee Weapon Attack. Speed Dart does an additional 1d10 Psychic Damage/Psi Point Spent on a successful Ranged Weapon Attack. Since not on gorram thing in the entire 28 fracking pages ever calls for a “Discipline Attack Roll” the one seems as legitimate to me as the other. (Insert frustrated hair pulling meme here) 🤯🤬😭
Sure, but Speed Dart doesn't call for any kind of attack roll. That's why the Psionic Ability doesn't apply, whereas Bestial Claws does call for an attack roll, so the Psionic Ability does apply.
He’s an old head like me. He wanted to play a “Psionicist” like back in the day and want to let him for nostalgia’s sake if nothing else. Isn’t that the point of play test materials after all? Okay, upon digging a little further I found this on page 9:
“Saving Throws and Attack Rolls
If a discipline requires a saving throw, it specifies the type of save and the results of a successful or failed saving throw. The DC is determined by your psionic ability. Some disciplines require you to make an attack roll to determine whether the discipline's effect hits its target. The attack roll uses your psionic ability.”
As devil’s advocate I would argue that the attack roll determines if the arrow hits the target, therefore it applies. Does this new information shine a different light on things for anyone?
He’s an old head like me. He wanted to play a “Psionicist” like back in the day and want to let him for nostalgia’s sake if nothing else. Isn’t that the point of play test materials after all? Okay, upon digging a little further I found this on page 9:
“Saving Throws and Attack Rolls
If a discipline requires a saving throw, it specifies the type of save and the results of a successful or failed saving throw. The DC is determined by your psionic ability. Some disciplines require you to make an attack roll to determine whether the discipline's effect hits its target. The attack roll uses your psionic ability.”
As devil’s advocate I would argue that the attack roll determines if the arrow hits the target, therefore it applies. Does this new information shine a different light on things for anyone?
The arrow isn't the discipline. The arrow is the target of the discipline, which is why the discipline doesn't require any sort of attack roll. By the time you shoot the arrow, the discipline has already hit its target and applied its effect.
In that case, Bestial Claws seems to be the only attack the class gets that would ever use the Discipline Attack Modifier. Why would they even include the thing at all if nothing ever uses it? RAW they included a Discipline Attack Modifier for only one discipline, but RAI that makes absolutely no sense.
In that case, Bestial Claws seems to be the only attack the class gets that would ever use the Discipline Attack Modifier. Why would they even include the thing at all if nothing ever uses it? RAW they included a Discipline Attack Modifier for only one discipline, but RAI that makes absolutely no sense.
Yeah, I've searched through the entire UA doc, and damaging disciplines are almost exclusively saving throws. There's actually one other discipline that uses the discipline attack modifier: Animate Weapon, which has to explicitly mention the discipline attack modifier since it's the weapon that's making the attack roll and not the mystic.
I was just about to update my comment to include Animate Weapon and saw you beat me to it. I think that RAI they probably meant to include things like Brute Force’s Brute Strike, Nomadic Arrow’s Speed Dart and Faithful Archer, Psionic Weapon’s Ethereal Weapon and Lethal Strike, and Psychic Assault’s Psionic Blast or it just doesn’t make any sense.
Please, someone convince me that I’m wrong. Somebody give me a logical argument for two specific mentions of using Int for attacks (one on page 4, the other on page 9) if they only ever intended it for Bestial Claws and Animate Weapon (or worse yet ONLY Animate Weapon) instead of just including specific wording within those two (or that one) Discipline(s). Otherwise I find poor wording more likely than building in an entire mechanic and mentioning it TWICE for no practical reason.
One of my players is using a Nomadic Mystic and I want to make sure I am interpreting the rules correctly. On page 4 under “Psionic Ability” it says:
Psionic Ability
Intelligence is your psionic ability for your psionic disciplines. You use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a psionic discipline or when making an attack roll with one.
Discipline save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
Discipline attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
Nothing anywhere in the disciplines ever explicitly calls for a “Melee/ranged Discipline Attack” in the way one would make a “Spell Attack.” The way I interpreting this is as follows: If he imbues his short bow/arrow with the Nomadic Arrow Discipline’s Speed Dart I am interpreting it that it counts as an attack called for by the discipline and therefore uses his Int instead of his Dex for the attack, and whenever he shoots his bow normally it uses his Dex as normal under the rules. Have I got it right or no?
Thank you all in advance for your help.
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If it’s an attack made with a discipline, then yes. I don’t know Speed Dart off the top of my head, but the way you describe it sounds like it is indeed “an attack made with one.”
Speed Dart (1–7 psi). As a bonus action, you imbue one ranged weapon you hold with psionic power. The next attack you make with it that hits before the end of the current turn deals an extra 1d10 psychic damage per psi point spent.
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Actually in that case, I'd say it would NOT use Intelligence. The discipline itself doesn't actually involve making an attack. It just confers some benefit to the next normal attack you make.
Compare this to the language of Bestial Claws: "You manifest long claws for an instant and make a melee weapon attack against one creature within 5 feet of you. On a hit, this attack deals 1d10 slashing damage per psi point spent." The discipline itself makes the attack, so it would use Intelligence for the attack roll.
Even that one would still use Dex or Strength. It is a melee weapon attack, not a spell attack or a discipline attack. Consider the text found on booming blade:
"As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell’s range..."
The spell grants a melee weapon attack, which still uses the normal rules for using strength for the attack (or your choice of dex if the weapon is finesse).
Then look at that compared to Steel Wind Strike:
"You flourish the weapon used in the casting and then vanish to strike like the wind. Choose up to five creatures you can see within range. Make a melee spell attack against each target."
You still use the weapon, but it dictates that it is a Melee Spell Attack. So in this case it uses your spell caster ability modifier.
I'd imagine it is the same for Disciplines, it would say something along the lines of 'Make a melee discipline attack...' or the sort.
I'd rule in both cases you use either strength or dex depending on if the weapon has finesse.
The "Psionic Ability" makes clear that Intelligence applies "when making an attack roll with [a discipline]." A melee weapon attack roll is still an attack roll. The specific text of Booming Blade actually separates the attack from the spell: with the same action you use to cast the spell, you also make a melee weapon attack, but the attack is not part of the spell per se. With Bestial Claws, the attack is very clearly the core function of the discipline. That's the difference.
Not one single Discipline actually calls for a “Melee/Ranged Discipline Attack” not a one. There has to be a line drawn somewhere, but where? Bestial claws does 1d10 Psychic Damage/Psi Point spent on a successful Melee Weapon Attack. Speed Dart does an additional 1d10 Psychic Damage/Psi Point Spent on a successful Ranged Weapon Attack. Since not on gorram thing in the entire 28 fracking pages ever calls for a “Discipline Attack Roll” the one seems as legitimate to me as the other. (Insert frustrated hair pulling meme here) 🤯🤬😭
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Like I said, that is how I would rule it. Though to be fair I wouldn't allow deprecated UA material in my campaign to begin with, so I would never had have to make that ruling to begin with.
Sure, but Speed Dart doesn't call for any kind of attack roll. That's why the Psionic Ability doesn't apply, whereas Bestial Claws does call for an attack roll, so the Psionic Ability does apply.
He’s an old head like me. He wanted to play a “Psionicist” like back in the day and want to let him for nostalgia’s sake if nothing else. Isn’t that the point of play test materials after all? Okay, upon digging a little further I found this on page 9:
“Saving Throws and Attack Rolls
If a discipline requires a saving throw, it specifies the type of save and the results of a successful or failed saving throw. The DC is determined by your psionic ability. Some disciplines require you to make an attack roll to determine whether the discipline's effect hits its target. The attack roll uses your psionic ability.”
As devil’s advocate I would argue that the attack roll determines if the arrow hits the target, therefore it applies. Does this new information shine a different light on things for anyone?
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The arrow isn't the discipline. The arrow is the target of the discipline, which is why the discipline doesn't require any sort of attack roll. By the time you shoot the arrow, the discipline has already hit its target and applied its effect.
In that case, Bestial Claws seems to be the only attack the class gets that would ever use the Discipline Attack Modifier. Why would they even include the thing at all if nothing ever uses it? RAW they included a Discipline Attack Modifier for only one discipline, but RAI that makes absolutely no sense.
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Yeah, I've searched through the entire UA doc, and damaging disciplines are almost exclusively saving throws. There's actually one other discipline that uses the discipline attack modifier: Animate Weapon, which has to explicitly mention the discipline attack modifier since it's the weapon that's making the attack roll and not the mystic.
I was just about to update my comment to include Animate Weapon and saw you beat me to it. I think that RAI they probably meant to include things like Brute Force’s Brute Strike, Nomadic Arrow’s Speed Dart and Faithful Archer, Psionic Weapon’s Ethereal Weapon and Lethal Strike, and Psychic Assault’s Psionic Blast or it just doesn’t make any sense.
Please, someone convince me that I’m wrong. Somebody give me a logical argument for two specific mentions of using Int for attacks (one on page 4, the other on page 9) if they only ever intended it for Bestial Claws and Animate Weapon (or worse yet ONLY Animate Weapon) instead of just including specific wording within those two (or that one) Discipline(s). Otherwise I find poor wording more likely than building in an entire mechanic and mentioning it TWICE for no practical reason.
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I really hope someone can convince me I’m wrong.
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