Designer Insights from Unearthed Arcana: Villainous Options

I think you guys have absolutely knocked it out of the park in terms of flavour. Please don't abandon these concepts! 

Paths are an absolutely brilliant idea.

I've always wanted to play a cleric or Talona so this new subclass would fit amazingly. I would perhaps suggest adding a few more poison spells to its options though. Maybe with ways to overcome poison resistance.

These subclasses and paths are incredibly cool and fun. I am already imagining the potential characters I’ll make. I really want to see an official book with these features. Very well done, and fairly balanced too.

“There is a lot in here that is just mechanically and objectively bad. Hell knight‘s 18th level feature is basically the no attunement uncommon magic item Hellfire Weapon with minor tweaks. Their ability applies to any creature reduced to 0 hp and takes 1d4 hours sent to a layer of the Nine Hells of choice vs only humanoids and sent to Avernus instantly.”

No—that is just the level 18 flavour feature. The mechanically good level 18 feature is Infernal Bargain which turns a 1 into a 6 on the Hellfire wound d6, procc’ing the features from levels 7 and 15. That’s a good mechanic that makes the subclass more impactful because Hellfire wounds regularly does more damage and procs more Advanced Wounds and new d6 rolls.

The only features I see as useless for the Hellknight is the Rupture of Cania Advanced Wound and the level 10 feature. Rupture of Cania is missing something—the other two advanced wounds  apply a condition, poisoned or prevent the target from taking a reaction. It does only additional Force damage and so is an obvious pass. Also it is thematically weird and the sole miss here—Cania is an Ice realm like Stygia so why does it even do Force damage?  I propose to give it a new name & make it prevent the target from healing or staunching the Hellfire Wound until the start of the Hellknight’s next turn, guaranteeing that Hellfire wounds procs again. 
The level 10 feature is thematically incredible but is likely to do extremely paltry damage (at a minimum let it do a three d6s, not one, and increase the Emanation range. At level 10, a single 1d6 Fire damage in a 10 foot Emanation might as well be nothing. It’s a world where Fireballs do 8d6 in a 20 radius sphere and has been around for awhile). 

The Hellknight should still be stronger—I love the flavor, I do, but it feels like it would fall short on damage and tbh it seems…uncompetitive… against a vanilla Fighter subclass, the Battlemaster. It seems like the Devs have forgotten that by level 18 the Battlemaster has six Superiority dice not conditional on any attribute and adds d12s on hits—and those dice are recharged on a Short or Long Rest. Plus, Battle Master can roll a 1d8 Superiority dice on every single turn at Level 15 because of Relentless! Not to mention Battle Master has way better tactical flexibility than the UA Hellknight.

At a minimum, the damage from Hellfire wounds should potentially scale more and the feature need to be useable more often. I would give the Hellknight an expanding resource pool and have them be able to burn more dice on Hellfire wounds up to 3d6 by level 15 but cap It at a single Advanced Wound per turn. Hellknight should also be able to use Hellfire Wounds more often—why  limit use to probably 5 per short rest at level 20 when Battlemaster has 6 1d12 Superiority dice by level 17 not tied to any attribute at all, and Relentless gives Battlemaster a free 1d8 Superiority dice per turn? If feeling generous the devs could even give Hellknight something like that—a free use once per turn at level 15 on top of the (unlikely but cool) potential of being able to roll more Hellfire Wound dice up to 3d6 on a 6. The Gladiator UA was a step in the right direction being able to regain uses of brutality through Second Wind.

A viable new subclass has to be able to offer something that is thematically and mechanically new but also good enough to compete. I think the trade off between Hellknight and existing vanilla subclasses like Eldritch knight, Battlemaster should be potential burst damage output and offensive ability versus versatility. All that said, as a first draft Hellknight seems so cool and I love the flavor, I only hope the Devs do compare the power level of new subclasses to what already exists in 5.5 before we have another sadly underpowered Banneret that pales in contrast to Fighter subclasses already on the table and is an obvious pass.

Not every new subclass needs to be more powerful than what exists but theme is not enough—a good new subclass is neither a hard pass nor an obvious pick because it is overpowered. Players want theme and good mechanics. I think the UA has terrific theme but sonme of the new subclasses are a tad mechanically underpowered.

Pestilence cleric was pretty good. a unique class where you guys cooked

Kaiju druid has good bones, but it does seem pretty weird that you're just as squishy as the moon druid when you're supposed to be some beast of a titan, though i get game balance must be a thing. 

Hellfire needs a lot of reworking its kinda lackluster, mostly just a fighter that's a pyromaniac, when so much is immune to its stuff, and yeah, the capstone being the abilities of a common magic item is.... kinda disappointing. 

I do like the demonic sorcery, but some small parts of it feel a touch more generic, like every caster's getting some variant where their most powerful ability is you summon X monster related to your class. It has that risk of making classes seem more samy, like slapping flight or thp on every class. 

And this part may make me a bit of an outlier. 

But I actually really do not like the Path feats. 

They feel like WOTC is trying to rip off Grim Hollow transformations, which WOTC grabbed the agreements to sell on this very platform, with none of the drawbacks that you are becoming this monstrous thing outside of implied flavor, which I know will cause some RAW conflicts. It also, unlike transformations, requires you to sink all your ASIs into grabbing (in many cases, for some classes) only some of the things that make you this monstrous thing. It does kinda make me feel this is the OLG all over again, where you are more or less saying the third party content producers that you even allow to sell on your platform can't gripe if you make something that is shockingly similar to their content. which, because it's first party, may get more attention then the third party that is most certainly more thought out fleshed out and established.

The circle of Titans is cool, but the stat blocks are pretty underpowered compared to other druids, the moon druid is either making two attacks or one heavy attack with crowd control at level 3 and, the beast master's pet is doing more damage than this transformation for most of the game. 

TBF, they did hire a couple writers/designers from Ghost Fire so that would explain the similarities to transformations 

I think instead if nerfing the HP and AC for the druid class, they should have made it a risk to take the form. Having to make con saves (on your humaoid forms's constitution) to avoid damage of being expanded so large and maybe wisdom saves to retain concertration on keeping the form or keeping your mind while in the form. I think its a cool idea that these large monsters are all actually druids that have just failed their saves and become permanently transformed or something like that. Make the dmg to self or ability to control the form what they are really up against. Its pushing the limits of the magic- i imagine like using the dark side of the force where it can consume you. 

Quote from NineBlades >>

“There is a lot in here that is just mechanically and objectively bad. Hell knight‘s 18th level feature is basically the no attunement uncommon magic item Hellfire Weapon with minor tweaks. Their ability applies to any creature reduced to 0 hp and takes 1d4 hours sent to a layer of the Nine Hells of choice vs only humanoids and sent to Avernus instantly.”

No—that is just the level 18 flavour feature. The mechanically good level 18 feature is Infernal Bargain which turns a 1 into a 6 on the Hellfire wound d6, procc’ing the features from levels 7 and 15. That’s a good mechanic that makes the subclass more impactful because Hellfire wounds regularly does more damage and procs more Advanced Wounds and new d6 rolls.

The only feature I see as useless for the Hellknight is the Rupture of Cania. It is missing something—the other two wounds  apply a condition or prevent the target from taking a reaction—and so would be automatically passed over. Also I thought Cania was an Ice realm like Stygia so, why does it do Force damage?  I propose to give it a new name & make it prevent the target from healing or staunching the Hellfire Wound until the start of the Hellknight’s next turn, guaranteeing that Hellfire wounds procs again. 

The Hellknight should still be stronger though—I love the flavor, I do, but it feels like it would fall short on damage and tbh it seems…uncompetitive… against a vanilla subclass, the Battlemaster. It seems like the Devs have forgotten that by level 18 the Battlemaster has six Superiority dice not conditional on any attribute and adds d12s on hits—and those dice are recharged on a Short or Long Rest. Plus, Battle Master can roll a 1d8 Superiority dice on every single turn at Level 15 because of Relentless! Not to mention Battle Master has way better tactical flexibility than the current draft. 

At a minimum, the damage from Hellfire wounds should scale more and the feature need to be useable more often. I would drop the level 15 ‘roll another dice gimmick’ though it’s cool and flavorful and have Hellfire wounds do scaling 2d6 by level 10, 3d6 by level 15 (throw in some more advanced wounds) but limit the damage over time effect to 1d6 and allow a single Advanced Wound per turn. Hellknight should also be able to use Hellfire Wounds based on Proficiency Bonus rather than Con—why  limit use to probably 5 per short rest at level 20 when Battlemaster has 6 1d12 Superiority dice by level 17 not tied to any attribute at all, and Relentless gives Battlemaster a free 1d8 Superiority dice per turn? 

I think the trade off between Hellknight and existing subclasses like Eldritch knight, Battlemaster should be straight damage output and offensive ability versus versatility and developers should check all their new subclasses more closely against those that already exist to ensure ok power level.

All that said, as a first draft Hellknight seems so cool and I love the flavor, I only hope the Devs do compare the power level of new subclasses to what already exists in 5.5 before we have another sadly underpowered Banneret that pales in contrast to subclasses already on the table and is an obvious pass. Not every new subclass needs to be more powerful than what exists—a good new subclass is neither a hard pass nor an obvious pick because it is overpowered. I think the current draft of  has terrific flavor but is mechanically underpowered.  

 Even if it’s just a flavor feature you’d have to wait until 18th level to do something an uncommon magic item can do. It doesn’t need to be overpowered it should be fun and feel unique like it has its own identity and not another battle master/psi warrior clone. It’s already been done just different flavor give us something new mechanically.
It’s a hell knight why not use the Narzugon (which are Paladins but the flavors right there) as inspiration. Have the first two features be like Infernal Tack: give it the find steed spell only having it be the fiend option and Hellfire Weapon combine its level 18 ribbon feature into the 3rd level feature. At 7th level a ribbon feature Infernal Resistance: they have resistance to fire and poison damage and advantage against charm/fear effects.

15th level boost the find steed in a way that would be unique to this subclass (they can even include the d6 wound mechanic and combine the features they introduced for the special ability maybe have it proc for both the fighter and steed), since the fighter will only be able to cast it at base unless they multiclass. That way damage is boosted as well as potentially survivability with another body of the field to soak up hits. Maybe a secondary 15th level feature still using the Narzugon as inspiration Infernal Command: allies within a certain distance share your advantage on saving throws to shake off or avoid the charmed/frightened condition or Infernal Retribution: when you use a you’re relentless endurance feature the creature who imposed the saving throws makes a save/or no save and takes fire damage equal to your fighter level.

18th level feature if you use the Narzugon still as inspiration they can dish out some healing but that’s from them being a paladin and being able to use find steed and heal might be stepping on a their toes too much. Instead how about making their summoned steed a bomb that when reduced to 0 hp or Hell knight’s choosing detonates for whatever damage you can make high amount with limited amount of times per day or make the damage on the lower end and they can do it as much as the want if the Find Steed feature isn’t tied to a resource.

If devs feel particularly lazy just copy the fiend warlock’s capstone and call it something else or be able to cast summon fiend spell (devil only) and make that a once per day thing or can recharge it expending two uses of Second Wind (not a new feature or powerful one by any means it’s already been done and it’s the capstone to the demon sorcerer in this UA which feels lackluster but on a martial it becomes unique). It gives the feeling of being a high ranking official within the Nine Hell’s army as you have a devil under your command. I wouldn’t say these features are better or good for that matter but I came up with them off the top of my head to make it feel unique to the fighter at least.

edit: I kinda came around a little on the abilities but will definitely give feedback ended up going back on some things and incorporating existing features. Made a version I‘m happy with (would need tweaks for sure) if they scrap the Hell Knight. 

W końcu mrok i chaos nadchodzi. 

Quote from SgtBlaze >>

What the hell are these subclasses themings? Pestilence Domain is covered by Death Domain. Circle of the Titan is mythology, not an aspect of nature fit for Druids. Hell Knights are said to be Oath of Conquest Paladins. Demonic Sorcery is covered by Divine Soul but in a way that just tramples on Fiend Warlocks.

 What !? How could you say that ? Pestilence domain just isn't death domain, that was focused on the boundaries of death, rather than here something more like decay, which I found quite lacking before. Plus, what's the matter with mythology druids ? The two are commonly associated in fantasy as the real druids from which they're inspired were basically myths tellers and keepers of such nature/lore knowledge (stop me if I'm wrong here).

For the hell knight, I have to disagree, their concept of wounding is some lovely new mechanic, nothing related to those paladins (besides it's a fighter so no issue in mixing both if mixing there was).

Same for Demonic sorcerers, I can't figure out how you made this link, and in the end theming isn't much relevant if you consider it as just the depiction of it being mythological when really it could be just a big beast in play, the main point is to have coherent abilities, then you describe them however you like.

Concentration Free Flight (with hover most likely) at Tier 1? Are you out of your minds?
How many DMs ban Aaracoccra and Owlin already? It's like you are trying to prove you don't want balance. We are just going to make the DMs life hard. That's our solution!

Then you wonder why there are so few DMs that it's one of the main constraining factors of your company/game growth.

I thought this was an April Fool's joke.

This is super cool. Always wanted to use the stuff that was kicking my butt in campaigns with official stuff. Hope to see some refinement but overall very big win from UA.

Reading these comments today, its obvious there is a lot of interest in this. I personally find "evil" tables super annoying. Its just not "D&D" to me. I guess there are plenty of people out there that have fun with it, which if so, I don't have a problem with it. D&D is what you make it or what you want it to be. What the DM says goes. I agree with all this. I do think at its core though, D&D is a COOPERATIVE game. It just doesn't work well if one or more players are not on board. This UA seems to focus on what is good or cool for the individual, not the party which I think can introduce a lot of problems. 

My biggest issue is the Paths. Reducing Death Knight and Lich to 3 feats just seems... dumb. These are legendary icons of the game. Reducing them to a series of feats achievable by lvl 12 is just laughable to me.  The feats need to be much higher level requirements, and maybe even other specific gating requirements to take. 20 in a core ability. Minimum spell casting levels or other prerequisite feat requirements. Something else to make them more of a risk or gamble to take. You need to lose something in order to gain these. There's also no guidance on how these "characters" would fit into a campaign or party setup. I really hope WOTC provides a lot of extra content relating to this if these ever end up in an official book. 

Specifically, a lvl 12 Lich seems completely implausible. Beginning the journey at lvl 4? Are you kidding? At the very least, I would think the minimum requirement should be to START at lvl 12, not end there. Liches are at least 18th level spellcasters. It should be kept that way.A Lich is by nature a completely selfish and thoroughly evil being. Completely incompatible with being in a party. Becoming a Death Knight isn't something a character should just be able to "choose" at lvl 4. Its a curse, not a choice. Its a punishment.  In my opinion, either of these options should necessitate retiring the character. 

But you know what they say about opinions... 

Quote from Hammar >>

Reading these comments today, its obvious there is a lot of interest in this. I personally find "evil" tables super annoying. Its just not "D&D" to me. I guess there are plenty of people out there that have fun with it, which if so, I don't have a problem with it. D&D is what you make it or what you want it to be. What the DM says goes. I agree with all this. I do think at its core though, D&D is a COOPERATIVE game. It just doesn't work well if one or more players are not on board. This UA seems to focus on what is good or cool for the individual, not the party which I think can introduce a lot of problems. 

I think a big reason why everyone is so interested in this is because all of these villainous subclasses contain features that are new, unique, and interesting. Many people have criticized 5.5e's subclasses for often having generic features with repetitive functions, like granting Temp HP or letting you cast a certain spell (often with some kind of buff). The Pestilence Domain Cleric, Circle of the Titan Druid, Hell Knight Fighter, and Demonic Sorcerer all have features that are neither generic nor repetitive, which is not only exciting and a breath of fresh air, but also a potential sign that WOTC is willing to experiment more with class design. I also think the excitement for fresh and unique mechanics extends to the Paths of Villainy, since they're radically different from any other feat that's shown up before in 5e or 5.5e and could be the first examples of a new and exciting form of character customization, one that fills a similar niche to 3e's Prestige Classes and 4e's Paragon Paths. Another reasons why there's so much interest in these Villainous Options, in my opinion, is that they seem like a sign that WOTC is now more willing to experiment with more problematic and controversial themes and content. Besides, dark and edgy anti-heroes have been popular since time immemorial, and the bad guys in things like fantasy, sci-fi, and superhero fiction tend to get all the cool toys. I can't blame people for wanting to have a chance to play around with those. 

Also, I would argue you could potentially play all of these as Good or Neutral. The source of a Sorcerer's magic doesn't dictate their values and morality, so a Demonic Sorcerer could easily be a kind and noble person who happens to have some very evil powers. The suggested backstories for the Hell Knight include sacrificing your soul to spare someone else's, and the subclass's fluff describes their relationship with devils as transactional and states that some "act as interplanar bounty hunters, hastening the journey of wicked souls to the River Styx." Druids of the Circle of the Titan are nature's defenders and avengers who only ravage civilisation when they believe it has violated nature, much like some modern depictions of Godzilla. While their retribution is destructive and violent, they also have very sympathetic motivations, and I think you could easily play one as an anti-villain, an anti-hero, or even just a hero. The Pestilence Domain's fluff describes its gods as using plagues to "motivate or punish mortals in accordance with their doctrines", and includes apothecaries (basically pharmacists), doctors, poisoners, royal tasters, and those seeking "to spare their communities or loved ones from plague" among the followers of said gods. Besides, it's entirely possible for Evil PCs (especially Lawful Evil ones) to be cordial and civil with Good or Neutral PCs and work with them towards a common goal.

Quote from RecordiconKnok >>

Also, I would argue you could potentially play all of these as Good or Neutral. The source of a Sorcerer's magic doesn't dictate their values and morality, a Demonic Sorcerer could easily be a kind and noble person who happens to have some very evil powers. ... Besides, it's entirely possible for Evil PCs (especially Lawful Evil ones) to be cordial and civil with Good or Neutral PCs and work with them towards a common goal.

Absolutely 100% agree with you on this. I've played evil characters before. I get it. Its cool. Its why we all love Darth Vader the most. I don't have as much issue with the sub-classes. We have the Oathbreaker and Vengeance paladins. Necromancers. Fiend Warlocks... all of which get used for evil play already.  And already cause headaches. 

As I said above, my biggest problem is with the Paths of Lich and Death Knight. I just think they are too watered down as presented for something so iconic in the game. My hope is that WOTC recognizes this and adds a lot more content to describe and flesh out the process than just "choose this feat at lvl 4/8/12 and you are done". Couple that with the fact that evil tends to be very self serving... I just don't see how this doesn't potentially cause major problems especially for new or inexperienced DM's. If approached right, they could technically work. I just am highly skeptical WOTC will give this the attention it deserves. They already have issues with vagueness all over the game. 

I also think playing these types of characters require a lot of maturity on the players part in order to make them work in what is fundamentally a team based cooperative game. I expect this will attract a lot of "ooh cool I wanna be a scary death knight". Without any thought or planning on what that might mean to a campaign, or the other players. Read the descriptions presented in the UA:

Death knights are dastards, deserters, and disgraced champions, undead warriors who march toward perdition to fulfill selfish desires and slake their bloodthirst. A death knight’s martial prowess is inextricably tied to their evil nature, but their heinous deeds extend far beyond the battlefield.

Tell me how that description plays into a party of 4 other player characters? I mean at the end of the day what the DM wants and what the players have fun with is fine. But I see this as attracting a lot of immature play and edgelord mentality. Both of which suck to play with. There will be a lot of DM's that struggle with this. 

I really wish we had a better introduction to these Paths (which I think are a good and interesting idea) than "Lich" and "Death Knight". Where are the Archmage, Lord, or Master Thief? I just hope that if these end up in a "Book of Vile Darkness" hardback, that its done in a way that doesn't translate into further issues at tables. 

Feat paths are an interesting way of simulating Prestige Classes... They seem even more exciting if you think of them in a video game-style talent tree.

Absolutely love the linking feats. i hope they continue to add more in the future. My only slight gripe is that every casting class can become a lich and anyone with weapon mastery can become a death knight, while i understand it from a balance and custimization direction i would have preffered if Death Knight was reserved for Paladin and maybe ranger, while Lich was reserved for Wizard and warlock. I think there is massive potential for what the undead/monstrous version of each class could be. Like a hypothetical Path of The Mummy Lord thats for Cleric/Monk, Path of Lichen Lich for druid, ETC. I still love both feat paths and would love to see them offically published even without the restrictions on class. 

The Arcane Restoration feat in the Path of the Lich presents a critical design flaw for the Warlock class, which is one of the classes explicitly permitted to follow this path via the Pact Magic requirement. The current text limits the recovery of expended spell slots to a combined level of no more than 4. This restriction effectively invalidates the benefit for Warlocks of level 9 or higher, as their spell slots are exclusively 5th level. Since it is impossible to recover fractions of a slot, the feat becomes a dead resource for the very class that should most naturally benefit from the pursuit of immortality and the consumption of souls. To fix this inconsistency and ensure Warlocks are not mechanically punished for progressing in their own class, the text should be adjusted to allow the recovery of one spell slot of 4th level or lower, or specifically one Pact Magic spell slot of any level.  

The Oath of Conquest calls to paladins who seek glory in battle and the subjugation of their enemies. It isn’t enough for these paladins to establish order. They must crush the forces of chaos. Sometimes called knight tyrants or iron mongers, those who swear this oath gather into grim orders that serve gods or philosophies of war and well-ordered might.

Some of these paladins go so far as to consort with the powers of the Nine Hells, valuing the rule of law over the balm of mercy. The archdevil Bel, warlord of Avernus, counts many of these paladins – called hell knights – as his most ardent supporters. Hell knights cover their armor with trophies taken from fallen enemies, a grim warning to any who dare oppose them and the decrees of their lords. These knights are often most fiercely resisted by other paladins of this oath, who believe that the hell knights have wandered too far into darkness.

Source: Xanathar's Guide to Everything

I play a Conquest Paladin and I was wondering if this lore needs to be retconned.

I would've really loved to finally have black guard back into the mix,or a death knight style character overall. I'm still missing it from 3.5 and 4th absolutely favriote characters and can't play them in the longest running version ever made