MPMB was never considered legal, it was just overlooked. The C&D came after MPMB opened a Patreon. The fact that they chose to do that at the same time that other legal books/services were coming out is coincidental. But MPMB and the other free online character generator everyone references were both shut down when they started advertising their Patreons.
This isn't meant to be directed at any one person in particular, and I apologize if I'm veering too far off-topic, but I keep seeing a general notion being repeated that seems to imply that WotC are very greedy money-grubbing cash grabbers who will nickle and dime you out of your last hard-earned dollar so they can eat caviar and drink champagne while you starve. I've only been playing D&D and collecting the books and accessories for about 2 years now, but nothing they're doing as a business seems too different from any other company. Sure, other companies offer PDFs, but that's a nice bonus. You were never owed that PDF. And from what I've seen, they seem very eager to help people who get damaged, misprinted, or otherwise unsatisfactory books get them replaced. But maybe I'm wrong and there's a side that I'm not seeing. Maybe they travel to 3rd world countries and pour oil in the only water supply for miles while they laugh and smoke expensive cigars, but I kinda doubt it.
So for the sake of argument, let's say that WotC is far more greedy than any other businessperson. Why support their products? If you hate WotC so much, why play D&D? There are hundreds of other games to choose from. If your argument is that Company X is more ethical to the consumer, and you make statements like "Yeah it figures Company Y would do something this shady, like they always do," why are you even messing with Company Y in the first place?
Are you sure i can use an itunes/googleplay gift card to buy books on dndbeyond? if so that would be a round about way to do it. otherwise, if they don't use the app, it won't work for them.
Yeah, I am reasonably certain this is not something you can do at this time. I'd love to be wrong, but I think someone is mistaken.
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DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder) Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
MonkeyDave, to clarify, as Adam "Badeye" bradford has stated before, this was an idea that he had. Curse approached WotC to license their content, just as Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds do. WotC did not contract with Curse to make it for them.
So, knowing that DDB is more like Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds, and that it wasn't coming from WotC, do you still feel the same way?
As for buying the books from Amazon, in that regard Amazon was acting as a reseller of the book much as a FLGS. While Amazon might own Twitch, and Twitch might own Curse, Curse did not sell you the book, and Amazon sold it as a retail partner of WotC.
As for a character builder to use with your existing books, part of the fault here lies with thinking that DDB is like the 4e DDI tools. DDB is NOT that tool.
As for MPMB, you can take that up with WotC, however, MPMB was including content that was protected IP without a licence to do so. If WotC had not exercised their right to protect their IP by removing it from DMs Guild, they would de facto be approving the use of their content without a license, which is legally untenable for a company that wants to profit (justly) from their content. MPMB could have negotiated a license, just like Curse, Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds.
Finally, I would ask you this: DO you feel the same way about Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds? Both of them charge for the digital versions of the WotC content. Do you feel that owning the physical book should unlock the content on those sites as well?
I am curious why it's so common to assert that the "vast majority" of D&D players are not interested in the services DDB offers and will not use them if they have to purchase the books "again," when by all indications DDB is successful. Even if it is the case that most players have no interest in DDB, clearly they are happy with the subset of players that do use DDB and I'm not sure it makes sense for them to be overly concerned with reaching every single player of the game. I mean, I'm pretty sure Amazon doesn't feel compelled to convince every reader that they need to read only e-books, or only use Audible. It'd be great if DDB could meet every player's needs, but that is clearly an unrealistic goal.
The reality is that we don't know what the "vast majority of players" do or don't want, and arguing that DDB is or isn't a good fit for them seems to be either beside the point, or merely a way to bolster your own argument. The truth is DDB isn't a good fit for you, and that's okay. I'm not sure it's worth arguing about.
MonkeyDave, to clarify, as Adam "Badeye" bradford has stated before, this was an idea that he had. Curse approached WotC to license their content, just as Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds do. WotC did not contract with Curse to make it for them.
I mean, WotC made press releases stating that they are partnering with Curse for The Official D&D online toolset. It sure sounds like it is a WOTC venture with curse, not a Curse venture with some WOTC licensing.
As for a character builder to use with your existing books, part of the fault here lies with thinking that DDB is like the 4e DDI tools. DDB is NOT that tool.
So the fault is that Curse/WotC didn't bring many players what they wanted?
As for MPMB, you can take that up with WotC, however, MPMB was including content that was protected IP without a licence to do so. If WotC had not exercised their right to protect their IP by removing it from DMs Guild, they would de facto be approving the use of their content without a license, which is legally untenable for a company that wants to profit (justly) from their content. MPMB could have negotiated a license, just like Curse, Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds.
WotC could have partnered with the authors of these highly popular tools. But the fact remains that MPMB remained on the official WotC marketplace, approved by WotC, for a long time.
Finally, I would ask you this: DO you feel the same way about Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds? Both of them charge for the digital versions of the WotC content. Do you feel that owning the physical book should unlock the content on those sites as well?
Roll20 and FG allow you to take those rules and play on a digital tabletop. It's not the same product. If FG and Roll20 were simply marketed as the official 5e online character builder, then yes, I'd probably feel the same way. But they aren't.
In the end, it doesn't matter. We can go back and forth on whether what ended up happening actually is what's best for business and/or WotC / Curse and/or D&d 5e's brand. I know the reasons, I just don't agree that they are GOOD reasons.
In the end it comes down to 'Maybe this isn't the product for you'. So sure, I spent $60 to buy the PHB (which I already owned) and XGTE (which cost my LGS a sale since I won't buy anything else twice) here. I'll not spend any more. As is, it isn't the product for me. The decisions made aren't great. The constant dismissal of people who don't like the business plan with 'You just don't get it, it HAS to be this way' annoys me, because it doesn't HAVE to be this way. And I'll continue to respond every so often when someone gets especially sanctimonious toward people who aren't happy with the business model.
I mean, WotC made press releases stating that they are partnering with Curse for The Official D&D online toolset. It sure sounds like it is a WOTC venture with curse, not a Curse venture with some WOTC licensing.
But the fact remains that MPMB remained on the official WotC marketplace, approved by WotC, for a long time.
WotC makes special concessions to allow use of their protected intellectual property in a limited fashion. That limited fashion is that you can sell it through one specific outlet and they get a cut of whatever sales you make - but you are explicitly not allowed to sell or distribute your works that use protected WotC IP through other outlets.
And MPMB started a Patreon to support their work, and I believe was also still distributing their sheet in a form that didn't fit the "short promotional excerpts" exception to the distribution limitation (because you can download the sheet on EnWorld). So there was a violation of the agreement that was made in order for MPMB's sheet to be "approved of by WOTC".
(If you'd like to view the, surprisingly easy to read and understand, terms that are laid out for DMs Guild submissions, you can do so by going to the website, signing in, clicking "Account" in the upper right, then selecting "Enter New Community Created Title" under the My Content heading and scrolling down to the agreement terms.)
Quote from mjsoctober> In the end it comes down to 'Maybe this isn't the product for you'. So sure, I spent $60 to buy the PHB (which I already owned) and XGTE (which cost my LGS a sale since I won't buy anything else twice) here. I'll not spend any more. As is, it isn't the product for me. The decisions made aren't great. The constant dismissal of people who don't like the business plan with 'You just don't get it, it HAS to be this way' annoys me, because it doesn't HAVE to be this way. And I'll continue to respond every so often when someone gets especially sanctimonious toward people who aren't happy with the business model.
Re a previous comment: As I understand it, DDB did bring down the cost of the licence. That you're not getting a discount for printed books as well is a bummer, although I'm in the camp that doesn't consider it realistic (in the current iteration - maybe future editions). But the fact is online content costs less because of DDB.
I would also note that it's all us DDB fans that keep pitching in and defending DDB, the company is pretty much silent and allows hostile criticism on their servers. Kudos to them, I say.
In the end, someone is always going to be unhappy with whatever business model WOTC and DDB puts up for their products, probably lots of people. You think their model is bad, and that's fine.
I have most of the 5e books. im starting a new campaign with new players and want to use the website for easy character creation for them.
How do i unlock the books on dnd beyond, i have the receipt. do i really have to pay full price again to unlock here?
I hope you do take Stormknight's advice and read the first page or so of this thread. I do want to point out a few things:
-the "books" here are, technically speaking, not full price: The full price for each of the core books is $50. Prices at places like Amazon are another matter, but those prices are not full price either.
-You don't necessarily need to purchase the whole book. You can purchase just the player options you (or your players) need; If you or your players have the time, you can also homebrew some elements (like backgrounds)
-If you want to share character creation resources with your players, you will need a Master Tier subscription too. If, however, your players already know what they want to play, they could just buy the elements they need for the character (in which case you wouldn't need a Master Tier subscription).
so in other words yes you have to buy things again ok ty ill use another service.
SneakZ, I'm curious which other service you plan to use? Any web site that has legitimate, legal copies of the books in digital format will charge you for them. The only way to get that content without paying is to pirate it, which is not cool.
For the record...
D&D Beyond is not owned by Wizards of the Coast.
D&D Beyond is owned by Curse, which is owned by Twitch, which is owned by Amazon.
D&D Beyond (aka Curse/Twitch/Amazon) did not sell you the physical books - Wizards of the Coast did.
D&D Beyond (aka Curse/Twitch/Amazon) has to pay a licencing fee to WotC for the rights to resell their content in a new format (this web site), just like all the other legitimate web sites like Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds.
For these reasons, you cannot get a free/discounted copy of the book here, because what you paid for was a physical book from WotC, not a digital format from D&D Beyond, just like when you buy the physical copy of a novel you don't get the digital/audio version for free/discounted.
1-2. So what? They are contracted by WotC to provide a service. I'm assuming that negotiations took place for that contract. Those negotiations could have included reduced licensing fees if Curse/WotC really wanted.
3. Well, I bought my PHB on Amazon so actually they did sell me my book.
4. Again, see 1-2.
For the vast majority of players, they are only interested in having an easy to use character generator that takes the information from the books they bought and puts it into a character sheet conveniently. Now, you can make the argument that that isn't what DNDB is. But it is what a lot of players seem to want. So from that perspective, the idea of paying an extra 50% on top of the physical book price for the ability to have a conveniently filled out character sheet seems a lot.
Add to that that MPMB was considered perfectly legal, existing on DMsGuild right up until XGTE was about the drop, and people are double pissed.
Was it Amazon that sold you the book? Or a 3rd party seller who bought it from WotC and sold it through Amazon's platform?
The character builder info only costs about a total of $90 in bundles plus the compendium content for the PHB. If that's all you want, it's already extremely discounted for you.
I have to agree that having to double purchase content sucks; I might not do it if I had to, I don't do it for music ( although with Google Play music, I don't have to ) - and I have to admit that I have a particularly privileged/fortunate position in that when I decided to jump to 5e, I did it here, so I've never had to buy content twice ( I have no hardcovers ).
But I'm genuinely curious how people think getting a "you bought the hardcover once, so you get a discount code" strategy would actually work?
Printed books do not - to the best of my knowledge - have a unique volume identifier. ISBNs refer to the title/variation, not the specific printed book.
Even if you own the hard cover, can you think of a way to show that you own it, and that you and your friends are not just passing around the same PHB as "proof" to get a discount code ( which you couldn't do if that specific PHB had a unique identifier; 1 discount code / book ID)?
Do you still have your receipts? Can you prove that receipt from your local game shop is yours, and not just borrowed from a friend? Do you expect DNDB to validate/accept every local game shop's receipts?
I don't see how its fair to bust DNDB's chops for "gouging people who already bought the book", when I can't see a fair, verifiable means where they could issue such a "discount code".
There may be way to do it - but I don't see it; I'd love to hear how it could be done, if it can.
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I mean, vinyl records don't have unique identifiers either, but individualized download codes for the same music in digital format that come bundled with LPs have become incredibly popular and successful. It's not like something like this is unheard of or impossible. I'm not saying it's going to happen, and at this point I have no interest in arguing whether it should or not, but I don't think it does us any good to pretend that we can't figure out how to do something like this. Unless you're specifically talking about people who've already bought the books, then yeah I'm not really sure. Could probably do it for folks who bought their books on Amazon, I guess?
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DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder) Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
I mean, vinyl records don't have unique identifiers either, but individualized download codes for the same music in digital format that come bundled with LPs have become incredibly popular and successful. It's not like something like this is unheard of or impossible. I'm not saying it's going to happen, and at this point I have no interest in arguing whether it should or not, but I don't think it does us any good to pretend that we can't figure out how to do something like this. Unless you're specifically talking about people who've already bought the books, then yeah I'm not really sure. Could probably do it for folks who bought their books on Amazon, I guess?
Agreed - although I haven't bought vinyl in decades.
But do those code not come bundled with the album packaging? Is it possible for me to pull out an album I bought 15 years ago ( in theory ), and reclaim my "digital download code"?
Could this be done, moving forward, if WoTC decided to do so? Of course it could.
I'm also not interested on arguing whether it "should" be done, or not.
But most of the protests aren't "I am considering buying these in the future, and want a discount code", they're "I already bought the books, I'm not buying them again".
All I'm saying is that - so far as I can see - there isn't a verifiable way of doing this for previously purchased books. And again, I could be wrong, and there's a way I'm not seeing.
And ... if there's not a way to do that, then arguing whether or not people who bought the book in the past "should" get a code is doubly futile.
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Getting in on the vinyl analogue discussion: It's important to note the major difference in the details of the vinyl album coming with a download code and the current D&D Beyond and physical book arrangement - the price being asked is set knowing the download code is part of the package (rather than the price being set, then the code being added later without a price of its own), and the money is all going to the same place.
It's the same as when people bring up the buying of a physical copy of a book with "free" PDF at the publisher's web store. It is possible in those cases because the money you pay goes to just the one company (which pays the artists, whether musicians or authors, in whatever way was agreed upon) - so while it appears that you buy, for example, Call of Cthulhu 7th edition slipcase set for $129.99 (which I know sounds high, but it's worth it, that's multiple rule books, a GM screen, two 'adventures' and some play aids) and get the PDFs of the included books and maps for free, the reality is that by buying directly from Chaosium and paying the same price that a local brick & mortar store would charge, the portion of that price that would normally go to the retailer and the distributor said retailer bought the product from is actually also going to Chaosium - and rather than just count all of it as profits and going on with their day, they've "spent" some of it to cover buying you the PDFs to go along with your hard-copy products. They let those PDFs seem "free" to the customer because that's good marketing.
As for a character builder to use with your existing books, part of the fault here lies with thinking that DDB is like the 4e DDI tools. DDB is NOT that tool.
So the fault is that Curse/WotC didn't bring many players what they wanted?
Curse set out to create a tool and a platform that it thought met a need in the community.
They approached WoTC to get a licence to use their IP in the tools and the platform and got their approval through a licencing deal.
Curse then offered their product to the community at a price that covered their licensing deal, the wages of their staff and expenses and what they view as an acceptable profit for the work they have put in.
People then have the choice of buying or not buying the product that is being offered. They have never hidden or lied about what is on offer and what they charge. They let you use the platform to see if it is what you want before you buy anything. They let you buy through a variety of levels, even down to individual classes and spells, and even allow you to enter the data yourself for much of the content if you feel that having bought the books already you would rather not pay again.
The decision then for the consumer is to decide for themselves is "Is what curse is offering through DDB at the price they are asking a reasonable price". They can then decide to buy or not to buy, or to just buy the components they want.
If you want a 5E version of the 4E tool set this seems like an excellent opportunity for you to approach WoTC and front up the money and skills to enable this to happen. Clearly you feeling that there is a demand here that is not being met by DDB and that you can meet at the costs you are suggesting.
Getting in on the vinyl analogue discussion: It's important to note the major difference in the details of the vinyl album coming with a download code and the current D&D Beyond and physical book arrangement - the price being asked is set knowing the download code is part of the package (rather than the price being set, then the code being added later without a price of its own), and the money is all going to the same place.
It's the same as when people bring up the buying of a physical copy of a book with "free" PDF at the publisher's web store. It is possible in those cases because the money you pay goes to just the one company (which pays the artists, whether musicians or authors, in whatever way was agreed upon) - so while it appears that you buy, for example, Call of Cthulhu 7th edition slipcase set for $129.99 (which I know sounds high, but it's worth it, that's multiple rule books, a GM screen, two 'adventures' and some play aids) and get the PDFs of the included books and maps for free, the reality is that by buying directly from Chaosium and paying the same price that a local brick & mortar store would charge, the portion of that price that would normally go to the retailer and the distributor said retailer bought the product from is actually also going to Chaosium - and rather than just count all of it as profits and going on with their day, they've "spent" some of it to cover buying you the PDFs to go along with your hard-copy products. They let those PDFs seem "free" to the customer because that's good marketing.
Excellent point.
An economic argument might still be made that DDNB/WoTC could recoup their cost, since I think it possible that if all my reference materials are on DNDB, I'm likely to subscribe to the site, or up my tier.
It's kind of like if the record company also rented you enhancement hardware for your MP3 player, even after deciding to give you the download code for an album that you bought 15 years ago. The download/discount code becomes a "loss leader" for the hardware rentals.
Now - that's only a possibility, and I'd have to see the math. I don't think it's a probability that it would make good economic sense, or at the very least the "return on investment" envelope could be years long. I suspect that even if DNDB decided to unilaterally give you free/discounted content, they're "on the hook" to WoTC for the full access royalties.
It's also - so far as I can tell - purely theoretical, as I still don't see how such a code for "legacy purchases" could work, in a way that wouldn't be abused ( hey, can I borrow your PHB so I can get a discount code from DNDB? ), or be ruinously expense in effort/person-hours/money tracking down and verifying claims ( I'm making $3 from you because of your discount code, and I'm spending $80 calling game stores to try and get them to verify sales? ).
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This idea that Curse isn't giving the people what they want is kind of ridiculous. I mean, I followed DDB from the very first teaser trailer on YouTube. Yeah, they said it would include a character builder, but they always marketed it as a tool to speed up the entire D&D experience at the table, which is exactly what it does. It's not Curse's, WOTC's, or any of the users here's fault if you didn't pay enough attention to not-even-fine print.
From all indications, it's a very vocal minority out there who want a different service than what's offered. Maybe there's room in the market for that kind of service, but this isn't it, and if outcry was really that great, any company would be insane to not meet demand. There's no way they're just ignoring the cries of countless masses. They are giving THE PEOPLE what they want, just not you specifically. Yes, character creation does bog down table time, and any toolset that didn't include that feature would be making a mistake, but there has never been any press to my knowledge that indicated that this would be a standalone character generator.
We're not on here defending this because of some foolhardy blind loyalty. There just seems to be a common thread among the people who seem to have issues with it, which is that a vast majority seem to be basing their assessments off of incomplete or incorrect information. While the tone may not come across as such, we really are just trying to help people make an informed decision. It's just that often people's first comments right out of the gate are angry and insulting, and reasonable and meaningful discourse can only last so long against that kind of attitude. But we have found a service that makes our game time more valuable, which to us was worth the "second purchase" of a book or two. And a couple dozen or so people coming onto these boards and slamming that service unanswered creates the false impression that it's not valuable to potential newcomers, which puts the future of a service that we're happy with at risk. So yes, any time someone criticizes DDB with the same tired points, there will be a rebuttal.
As everyone has said multiple times, no one can tell you where you should find value. But just because something isn't good for you does not mean that it's not good for others, or even a majority of others. No one is getting ripped off. No one is getting taken advantage of. Either you need what DDB provides and you can find a way in their very flexible cost system to make use of it, or you don't and you get to play the game you've always enjoyed the same way people have for decades.
To those of you rehashing the arguments about how a bundled discount could be offered, please stop and look back through this thread. We already had a very long discussion about all the possible ways it technically could be accomplished, and all the reasons it will never happen.
The most important reason it will not happen is this (as stated repeatedly): D&D Beyond is not owned by WotC. It is owned by Curse, who pay a licencing fee to WotC. WotC CAN NOT offer a discount code for a product they don't sell, and they don't sell D&D Beyond. It could only happen if Curse (who own D&D Beyond) agreed to allow WotC to give away a discount, which is unlikely to happen since the D&D Beyond product is already discounted from the price on the cover of the hard copy books.
I am curious to know if all of you complaining about this, or wondering how it could be done would also expect it to be done in reverse?
Do you believe that buying the PHB in digital format from DDB should entitle you to a discounted or free copy of the hard copy book? Why is no one asking how to "unlock" a hard copy version after buying a digital version.
I also bring up Roll 20 and Fantasy Grounds again. It doesn't matter that they are VTTs, they also sell digital copies of the D&D books. You could make a Roll 20 account FOR FREE (Just like on DDB) and never use it as a VTT, and then buy the digital version of the Monster Manual for example, and you would pay MORE than you would pay on DDB. You also wouldn't get any sort of discount or "unlock code" for owning the physical version. Why is no one complaining so loudly about Roll 20 and FG?
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You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I think there is a conception that a digital copy should be less valuable because it is not tangible, and there are no reproduction costs. But as you mentioned, that is represented in the lower cost to obtain the digital copy. "But Amazon.." ...is an outlier and is also able to offset costs by stocking in bulk.
As has been said by a few people, a bundle could be implemented going forward. There could be an arrangement between WotC and Curse to totally make that work.
But it could only work going forward. Pretty much everyone complaining are people who have already bought in, and there is no way to retroactively put this bundle into place. So a future bundle would create more complaints and PR issues from those people again, as well as people who have already paid for both.
Based on that, I can't see any reason why there will ever be a bundle in the 5e lifecycle.
Did you really just preface 4 paragraphs of re-hashed arguments "(as stated repeatedly)", with a complaint about people re-hashing arguments, instead of just answering the question?
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MPMB was never considered legal, it was just overlooked. The C&D came after MPMB opened a Patreon. The fact that they chose to do that at the same time that other legal books/services were coming out is coincidental. But MPMB and the other free online character generator everyone references were both shut down when they started advertising their Patreons.
This isn't meant to be directed at any one person in particular, and I apologize if I'm veering too far off-topic, but I keep seeing a general notion being repeated that seems to imply that WotC are very greedy money-grubbing cash grabbers who will nickle and dime you out of your last hard-earned dollar so they can eat caviar and drink champagne while you starve. I've only been playing D&D and collecting the books and accessories for about 2 years now, but nothing they're doing as a business seems too different from any other company. Sure, other companies offer PDFs, but that's a nice bonus. You were never owed that PDF. And from what I've seen, they seem very eager to help people who get damaged, misprinted, or otherwise unsatisfactory books get them replaced. But maybe I'm wrong and there's a side that I'm not seeing. Maybe they travel to 3rd world countries and pour oil in the only water supply for miles while they laugh and smoke expensive cigars, but I kinda doubt it.
So for the sake of argument, let's say that WotC is far more greedy than any other businessperson. Why support their products? If you hate WotC so much, why play D&D? There are hundreds of other games to choose from. If your argument is that Company X is more ethical to the consumer, and you make statements like "Yeah it figures Company Y would do something this shady, like they always do," why are you even messing with Company Y in the first place?
Yeah, I am reasonably certain this is not something you can do at this time. I'd love to be wrong, but I think someone is mistaken.
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
MonkeyDave, to clarify, as Adam "Badeye" bradford has stated before, this was an idea that he had. Curse approached WotC to license their content, just as Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds do. WotC did not contract with Curse to make it for them.
So, knowing that DDB is more like Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds, and that it wasn't coming from WotC, do you still feel the same way?
As for buying the books from Amazon, in that regard Amazon was acting as a reseller of the book much as a FLGS. While Amazon might own Twitch, and Twitch might own Curse, Curse did not sell you the book, and Amazon sold it as a retail partner of WotC.
As for a character builder to use with your existing books, part of the fault here lies with thinking that DDB is like the 4e DDI tools. DDB is NOT that tool.
As for MPMB, you can take that up with WotC, however, MPMB was including content that was protected IP without a licence to do so. If WotC had not exercised their right to protect their IP by removing it from DMs Guild, they would de facto be approving the use of their content without a license, which is legally untenable for a company that wants to profit (justly) from their content. MPMB could have negotiated a license, just like Curse, Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds.
Finally, I would ask you this: DO you feel the same way about Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds? Both of them charge for the digital versions of the WotC content. Do you feel that owning the physical book should unlock the content on those sites as well?
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I am curious why it's so common to assert that the "vast majority" of D&D players are not interested in the services DDB offers and will not use them if they have to purchase the books "again," when by all indications DDB is successful. Even if it is the case that most players have no interest in DDB, clearly they are happy with the subset of players that do use DDB and I'm not sure it makes sense for them to be overly concerned with reaching every single player of the game. I mean, I'm pretty sure Amazon doesn't feel compelled to convince every reader that they need to read only e-books, or only use Audible. It'd be great if DDB could meet every player's needs, but that is clearly an unrealistic goal.
The reality is that we don't know what the "vast majority of players" do or don't want, and arguing that DDB is or isn't a good fit for them seems to be either beside the point, or merely a way to bolster your own argument. The truth is DDB isn't a good fit for you, and that's okay. I'm not sure it's worth arguing about.
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
I mean, WotC made press releases stating that they are partnering with Curse for The Official D&D online toolset. It sure sounds like it is a WOTC venture with curse, not a Curse venture with some WOTC licensing.
So the fault is that Curse/WotC didn't bring many players what they wanted?
WotC could have partnered with the authors of these highly popular tools. But the fact remains that MPMB remained on the official WotC marketplace, approved by WotC, for a long time.
There were similar articles about Fantasy Grounds.
WotC makes special concessions to allow use of their protected intellectual property in a limited fashion. That limited fashion is that you can sell it through one specific outlet and they get a cut of whatever sales you make - but you are explicitly not allowed to sell or distribute your works that use protected WotC IP through other outlets.And MPMB started a Patreon to support their work, and I believe was also still distributing their sheet in a form that didn't fit the "short promotional excerpts" exception to the distribution limitation (because you can download the sheet on EnWorld). So there was a violation of the agreement that was made in order for MPMB's sheet to be "approved of by WOTC".
(If you'd like to view the, surprisingly easy to read and understand, terms that are laid out for DMs Guild submissions, you can do so by going to the website, signing in, clicking "Account" in the upper right, then selecting "Enter New Community Created Title" under the My Content heading and scrolling down to the agreement terms.)
In the end, someone is always going to be unhappy with whatever business model WOTC and DDB puts up for their products, probably lots of people. You think their model is bad, and that's fine.
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I have to agree that having to double purchase content sucks; I might not do it if I had to, I don't do it for music ( although with Google Play music, I don't have to ) - and I have to admit that I have a particularly privileged/fortunate position in that when I decided to jump to 5e, I did it here, so I've never had to buy content twice ( I have no hardcovers ).
But I'm genuinely curious how people think getting a "you bought the hardcover once, so you get a discount code" strategy would actually work?
Printed books do not - to the best of my knowledge - have a unique volume identifier. ISBNs refer to the title/variation, not the specific printed book.
Even if you own the hard cover, can you think of a way to show that you own it, and that you and your friends are not just passing around the same PHB as "proof" to get a discount code ( which you couldn't do if that specific PHB had a unique identifier; 1 discount code / book ID)?
Do you still have your receipts? Can you prove that receipt from your local game shop is yours, and not just borrowed from a friend? Do you expect DNDB to validate/accept every local game shop's receipts?
I don't see how its fair to bust DNDB's chops for "gouging people who already bought the book", when I can't see a fair, verifiable means where they could issue such a "discount code".
There may be way to do it - but I don't see it; I'd love to hear how it could be done, if it can.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I mean, vinyl records don't have unique identifiers either, but individualized download codes for the same music in digital format that come bundled with LPs have become incredibly popular and successful. It's not like something like this is unheard of or impossible. I'm not saying it's going to happen, and at this point I have no interest in arguing whether it should or not, but I don't think it does us any good to pretend that we can't figure out how to do something like this. Unless you're specifically talking about people who've already bought the books, then yeah I'm not really sure. Could probably do it for folks who bought their books on Amazon, I guess?
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Yeah, I'm in agreement with all that .
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
Getting in on the vinyl analogue discussion: It's important to note the major difference in the details of the vinyl album coming with a download code and the current D&D Beyond and physical book arrangement - the price being asked is set knowing the download code is part of the package (rather than the price being set, then the code being added later without a price of its own), and the money is all going to the same place.
It's the same as when people bring up the buying of a physical copy of a book with "free" PDF at the publisher's web store. It is possible in those cases because the money you pay goes to just the one company (which pays the artists, whether musicians or authors, in whatever way was agreed upon) - so while it appears that you buy, for example, Call of Cthulhu 7th edition slipcase set for $129.99 (which I know sounds high, but it's worth it, that's multiple rule books, a GM screen, two 'adventures' and some play aids) and get the PDFs of the included books and maps for free, the reality is that by buying directly from Chaosium and paying the same price that a local brick & mortar store would charge, the portion of that price that would normally go to the retailer and the distributor said retailer bought the product from is actually also going to Chaosium - and rather than just count all of it as profits and going on with their day, they've "spent" some of it to cover buying you the PDFs to go along with your hard-copy products. They let those PDFs seem "free" to the customer because that's good marketing.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
This idea that Curse isn't giving the people what they want is kind of ridiculous. I mean, I followed DDB from the very first teaser trailer on YouTube. Yeah, they said it would include a character builder, but they always marketed it as a tool to speed up the entire D&D experience at the table, which is exactly what it does. It's not Curse's, WOTC's, or any of the users here's fault if you didn't pay enough attention to not-even-fine print.
From all indications, it's a very vocal minority out there who want a different service than what's offered. Maybe there's room in the market for that kind of service, but this isn't it, and if outcry was really that great, any company would be insane to not meet demand. There's no way they're just ignoring the cries of countless masses. They are giving THE PEOPLE what they want, just not you specifically. Yes, character creation does bog down table time, and any toolset that didn't include that feature would be making a mistake, but there has never been any press to my knowledge that indicated that this would be a standalone character generator.
We're not on here defending this because of some foolhardy blind loyalty. There just seems to be a common thread among the people who seem to have issues with it, which is that a vast majority seem to be basing their assessments off of incomplete or incorrect information. While the tone may not come across as such, we really are just trying to help people make an informed decision. It's just that often people's first comments right out of the gate are angry and insulting, and reasonable and meaningful discourse can only last so long against that kind of attitude. But we have found a service that makes our game time more valuable, which to us was worth the "second purchase" of a book or two. And a couple dozen or so people coming onto these boards and slamming that service unanswered creates the false impression that it's not valuable to potential newcomers, which puts the future of a service that we're happy with at risk. So yes, any time someone criticizes DDB with the same tired points, there will be a rebuttal.
As everyone has said multiple times, no one can tell you where you should find value. But just because something isn't good for you does not mean that it's not good for others, or even a majority of others. No one is getting ripped off. No one is getting taken advantage of. Either you need what DDB provides and you can find a way in their very flexible cost system to make use of it, or you don't and you get to play the game you've always enjoyed the same way people have for decades.
To those of you rehashing the arguments about how a bundled discount could be offered, please stop and look back through this thread. We already had a very long discussion about all the possible ways it technically could be accomplished, and all the reasons it will never happen.
The most important reason it will not happen is this (as stated repeatedly): D&D Beyond is not owned by WotC. It is owned by Curse, who pay a licencing fee to WotC. WotC CAN NOT offer a discount code for a product they don't sell, and they don't sell D&D Beyond. It could only happen if Curse (who own D&D Beyond) agreed to allow WotC to give away a discount, which is unlikely to happen since the D&D Beyond product is already discounted from the price on the cover of the hard copy books.
I am curious to know if all of you complaining about this, or wondering how it could be done would also expect it to be done in reverse?
Do you believe that buying the PHB in digital format from DDB should entitle you to a discounted or free copy of the hard copy book? Why is no one asking how to "unlock" a hard copy version after buying a digital version.
I also bring up Roll 20 and Fantasy Grounds again. It doesn't matter that they are VTTs, they also sell digital copies of the D&D books. You could make a Roll 20 account FOR FREE (Just like on DDB) and never use it as a VTT, and then buy the digital version of the Monster Manual for example, and you would pay MORE than you would pay on DDB. You also wouldn't get any sort of discount or "unlock code" for owning the physical version. Why is no one complaining so loudly about Roll 20 and FG?
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I think there is a conception that a digital copy should be less valuable because it is not tangible, and there are no reproduction costs. But as you mentioned, that is represented in the lower cost to obtain the digital copy. "But Amazon.." ...is an outlier and is also able to offset costs by stocking in bulk.
As has been said by a few people, a bundle could be implemented going forward. There could be an arrangement between WotC and Curse to totally make that work.
But it could only work going forward. Pretty much everyone complaining are people who have already bought in, and there is no way to retroactively put this bundle into place. So a future bundle would create more complaints and PR issues from those people again, as well as people who have already paid for both.
Based on that, I can't see any reason why there will ever be a bundle in the 5e lifecycle.
Did you really just preface 4 paragraphs of re-hashed arguments "(as stated repeatedly)", with a complaint about people re-hashing arguments, instead of just answering the question?
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.