I've been thinking about this and I am not sure if its actually legal to store the spells you get from your subclass in your spell storing item.
The spell spell storing item specifically states that you can only choose spells from the artificer spell list and, although technically not on that list, the subclass spells count as artificer spells for you.
I've been thinking about this and I am not sure if its actually legal to store the spells you get from your subclass in your spell storing item.
The spell spell storing item specifically states that you can only choose spells from the artificer spell list and, although technically not on that list, the subclass spells count as artificer spells for you.
So what's should the ruling be?
The subclass spells section reads thusly:
"Starting at 3rd level, you always have certain spells prepared after you reach particular levels in this class, as shown in the [Alchemist/Artillerist/BattleSmith] Spells table. These spells count as artificer spells for you, but they don't count against the number of artificer spells you prepare."
Since those spells count as artificer spells then they're effectively on the artificer spell list and thus level 1 and 2 artificer subclass spells are valid options for spell storing item. That would be how I'd rule it.
I would allow them, but this does open up some exploits. Like, say you're playing with a Ravnica Background, or Dragonmarked race that adds additional spells. This could let you cast silence 10 times, or split it between the party to allow for the best stealth team ever. Same for Pass without Trace, Darkness, Zone of Truth, Warding Bond, Gust of Wind, Calm Emotions, Aid, Goodberry, Locate object, Locate Plants or Animals, Find Traps, Detect Thoughts, Hold Person, Command, Guiding Bolt, Heroism, Scorching Ray, Entangle, Ray of Sickness, Compelled Duel, Chaos Bolt, Create/Destroy Water, Unseen Servant, Enthrall, Ray of Enfeeblement, Burning Hands, Dissonant Whispers, Flaming Sphere, Crown of Madness, Charm Person, and many other spells that you previously couldn't even cast, and now you can cast them 10 times, or split it amongst the party.
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The problem is the wording. The spell list means the spell list, not the spells the character considers class spells for that character or other spells the character knows. The wording used for that is "a (class) spell you know". Battle magic and spell swapping are examples of the different wording.
I let artificers do it anyway, but RAW would strictly be the class spell list.
EDIT: Dragon mark spells can be used with the SSI. The dragon mark spells state the spells are added to the class list, unlike the spells from the artificer subclasses.
That doesn't strike you as horseshit, Ashrym? That spells granted by a core feature of the class, spells which are explicitly referred to as "The Expanded Spell List", aren't valid for SSI but spells granted by a completely different source entirely unrelated to the class are perfectly fair game?
RAI is blatantly obvious in this case, whatever the vagaries of RAW might be. Let your artificers SSI their subclass spells, folks.
I’m inclined to agree. I think they went with “the artificer spell list” as the wording from force of habit. If they had written “one of your Artificer spells” it would have been clearer. Of course, that being the case, maybe it wasn’t a mistake after all...? But as a DM I would still allow it. However, as a player I would not argue the point if my DM chose to go by RAW.
That doesn't strike you as horseshit, Ashrym? That spells granted by a core feature of the class, spells which are explicitly referred to as "The Expanded Spell List", aren't valid for SSI but spells granted by a completely different source entirely unrelated to the class are perfectly fair game?
RAI is blatantly obvious in this case, whatever the vagaries of RAW might be. Let your artificers SSI their subclass spells, folks.
Your language seems a bit salty. I explained RAW and stated I allow other spells anyway.
RAW has language that adds a spell to the spell list. Dragon marks explicitly state those spells are added to the class list. SSI uses different language that states class list. The subclass spells are cast as if they are artificer spells but that does not actually place them on the artificer spell list.
It's the same argument that came and went with magical secrets which also uses the same language and also doesn't actually add those spells to the bard spell list.
The developers stated many times they use wording like that on purpose so I recommend not speaking on their behalf on what's intended. What you claim is intended is literally demonstrated in the same book regarding dragon mark spells so the intent seems supported in restricting the SSI.
Like I said, I let artificers use other spells too. I'm just explaining RAW so I'm not sure why you seem triggered on that. If you disagree you can hit up JC on twitter. I won't have any hard feelings if he backs you up. It's just a game after all. ;)
Rule of Cool. They already get to put things like False Life in it (allowing you to negate 'self' only). Their subclass spells are not that big a power boost.
The subclass spell lists don't break SSI, but the Dragonmark and Ravnica Background spell lists certainly do. You can put a goodberry spell into it, making 100 goodberries in a minute. Suddenly, you're the best healer in the party if you have time, or you can feed up to 100 people every day, and make it so they don't need water. You're Jesus now, multiplying food. You can also use your spell slots to make even more Goodberries, once you get to level 19 you can 250 goodberries in a day, using SSI and all your spell slots. Take a level in Warlock for level 20 (if you're fine with leaving behind the capstone), and you suddenly have recharging spell slots every short rest, making it so you can make even more goodberries. Not the best combo in the world, but it's good.
There are more abusable combos as well. Flaming Sphere, let your companions all have a flaming sphere. What's worse than one flaming sphere sweeping across the battlefield burning everything in its path? 10 flaming spheres. Without using any spell slots.
Also, you can spam blasting spells like Chaos Bolt, Guiding Bolt, Burning Hands, and Ray of Enfeeblement. Again, not the best use of this ability, but it's certainly not bad.
Then, there's the 2 heavy hitters. Hold Person, and Scorching Ray. Hold Person is an amazing use of this ability, because suddenly you can have nearly every party member concentrating on Hold Person while the Barbarian runs around getting Brutal Criticals on them over and over again. Or, you can have the Warlock Hex one of the held people, walk up to them, and then do Scorching Ray cast at level 4 given to them by the Chronurgist Wizard, doing a total of 30d6 to that one person that is paralyzed and hexed.
These added class lists are broken when combined with Spell Storing Item. I mean, it's legal, and you don't even need to have these spells prepared, you just choose each long rest whether you want to give the party a buttload of Hold Persons, or 100 goodberries, all for free.
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Like I said, I let artificers use other spells too. I'm just explaining RAW so I'm not sure why you seem triggered on that. If you disagree you can hit up JC on twitter. I won't have any hard feelings if he backs you up. It's just a game after all. ;)
I get where you’re coming from completely. Being somewhat familiar with some of Yurie’s colorful use of language, I had interpreted his statement more like this:
Considering:
A) Since you are in fact fully aware of the RAW, and
B) Since you stated that you personally as a DM have ruled in direct opposition to RAW at your own table. So therefore
C) One Could conclude that yourself obviously disagree with RAW in this instance. Considering that
D) A lot of people came to the same conclusion that you did, and have independently ruled the exact same way that you did,
E) Would you agree that the alternative ruling everyone has come to could be considered RAI? And if so
F) Do you agree that we should voice our opinions together as a comunity in the hopes that all of our tiny squeaks might possibly come together into a loud enough roar to be heard over the crowd in the hopes that Mr. Crawford & Co. might hear it and rule in favor of this RAI in Sage Advice, or possibly a future errata?
Now I will repeat, that is purely my interpretation of the meaning behind the content of Yurei’s message. I do not presume to actually speak for Yurei, nor am I speaking on their behalf. Just presenting an alternative thought process.
I would not allow you to use your expanded spells due to:
3 out of 4 sub classes have shield. That means you have shield on a lot, and you have armor.
As mentioned above, Flaming sphere is broken with this.
If you are an armorer, you could have everyone have a mirror image spell cast on them, buffing up everyone's defenses.
It is not like you can't do crazy things with SSI already, Cast animate objects and have your animated objects all cast catapult, or cure wounds on you. Or you can have everyone always have blur on themselves. I think the crazy combo with animate objects is broken enough for it.
I would not allow you to use your expanded spells due to:
3 out of 4 sub classes have shield. That means you have shield on a lot, and you have armor.
As mentioned above, Flaming sphere is broken with this.
If you are an armorer, you could have everyone have a mirror image spell cast on them, buffing up everyone's defenses.
It is not like you can't do crazy things with SSI already, Cast animate objects and have your animated objects all cast catapult, or cure wounds on you. Or you can have everyone always have blur on themselves. I think the crazy combo with animate objects is broken enough for it.
Remember that SSI has at most 10 uses per day, and if you're casting animate objects to use the SSI more quickly that's all of those uses gone in a single day within a single combat encounter. Further the ability to do this is contingent on being able to cast Animate Objects, which Artifcers can't do until level 17 when they get access to 5th level spells. Note that this is the same level full casters get access to 9th level spells.
Compare Animate Objects + SSI casting Flaming Sphere to the 9th level spell Meteor Swarm: The combo can do 20d6 fire damage to a single target per turn but only when all 10 spheres are focused on a single target (and only when it loses all 10 Dex saves) and only so long as each animated object (and the one who cast animate objects) can maintain their concentration. The 9th level spell does 20d6 fire damage and 20d6 bludgeoning to all creatures within a 40 foot radius sphere centered on a point anywhere within a 1 mile range.
With teamwork this combo requires an 11th level Artificer and a 9th level full caster who can cast animate objects. It's a lot of damage, but again, it's a strategy involving teamwork. Break the concentration of the full caster and it ceases. Break the concentration of the animated object (which has a CON modifier of 0 by the way) and whatever concentration spell stored in the SSI is broken. If the party encounters an enemy immune to the damage type done by the spell stored in the SSI then that strategy is useless.
Without including subclass spells the only direct damage spells that can be used with SSI are Catapult and Heat Metal. Not bad spells by any means but it's nice to have a bit more variety in options to use SSI with.
Damage wise Flaming Sphere (2d6) is on par with Heat Metal (2d8). Except Heat Metal involves damage without requiring a save.
If heat metal with the SSI isn't broken I don't think Flaming Sphere with it is either.
At the very least flaming sphere is more interesting to describe in the situation.
The problem with having 10 flaming spheres is that they can spread out, last more than 1 round (unlike Meteor Swarm), and effect 9 squares on the battlefield each. That's 90 squares of the battlefield that deal a total of 20d6 fire damage every round. If this survives even 3 rounds, and all the flaming spheres are effecting at least one creature, you can do more damage than Meteor Swarm.
Heat metal does more damage, and on no saving thrown, but it is more situational. They need metal on them, and they need to not just drop their weapon or take off their shield. Flaming Sphere effects more people, is less avoidable, and does more damage than Heat Metal practically.
(Catapult is an awesome use of this ability. Just give an animated large creature an catapult, and it can fling parts of its body at enemies, if the DM allows it.
The expanded spell lists and subclass tables can be a problem, but again, there's so much that has to go right with some of these spells that it isn't easy to set up giant battles with 10 flaming spheres.
Personally, I think the Animate Objects is better with Hold Person or Scorching Ray in the SSI, but Flaming Sphere is still a great use.
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I mean to pull off the "whole team uses concentration thing" also means that the whole team has to be near enough to pass along the item in the first place.
Personally I find it more useful to usue it for something like Inivisible, or False Life, or one of those other long lasting, or out of battle great utility things.
Although I personally really wish that Alchemist had Guiding Bolt on their list instead of the Ray of Sickness. As that would suit them far better in their role.. (I mix florecents and throw the vial, making the enemy glow for my ally to wreck!). but I personally think their added list reallly doesn't suit their role.
(in fact next time I should really ask if i can switch the subclass spells to something that suits the class's support methods more)
I've been thinking about this and I am not sure if its actually legal to store the spells you get from your subclass in your spell storing item.
The spell spell storing item specifically states that you can only choose spells from the artificer spell list and, although technically not on that list, the subclass spells count as artificer spells for you.
So what's should the ruling be?
The subclass spells section reads thusly:
"Starting at 3rd level, you always have certain spells prepared after you reach particular levels in this class, as shown in the [Alchemist/Artillerist/BattleSmith] Spells table. These spells count as artificer spells for you, but they don't count against the number of artificer spells you prepare."
Since those spells count as artificer spells then they're effectively on the artificer spell list and thus level 1 and 2 artificer subclass spells are valid options for spell storing item.
That would be how I'd rule it.
I would lean the same way, just a little unsure about it considering that they aren't technically on the spell list
I would allow them, but this does open up some exploits. Like, say you're playing with a Ravnica Background, or Dragonmarked race that adds additional spells. This could let you cast silence 10 times, or split it between the party to allow for the best stealth team ever. Same for Pass without Trace, Darkness, Zone of Truth, Warding Bond, Gust of Wind, Calm Emotions, Aid, Goodberry, Locate object, Locate Plants or Animals, Find Traps, Detect Thoughts, Hold Person, Command, Guiding Bolt, Heroism, Scorching Ray, Entangle, Ray of Sickness, Compelled Duel, Chaos Bolt, Create/Destroy Water, Unseen Servant, Enthrall, Ray of Enfeeblement, Burning Hands, Dissonant Whispers, Flaming Sphere, Crown of Madness, Charm Person, and many other spells that you previously couldn't even cast, and now you can cast them 10 times, or split it amongst the party.
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Now I just want a way to suit up my whole team with Armor of Agathys.
Partway through the quest for absolute truth.
The problem is the wording. The spell list means the spell list, not the spells the character considers class spells for that character or other spells the character knows. The wording used for that is "a (class) spell you know". Battle magic and spell swapping are examples of the different wording.
I let artificers do it anyway, but RAW would strictly be the class spell list.
EDIT: Dragon mark spells can be used with the SSI. The dragon mark spells state the spells are added to the class list, unlike the spells from the artificer subclasses.
That doesn't strike you as horseshit, Ashrym? That spells granted by a core feature of the class, spells which are explicitly referred to as "The Expanded Spell List", aren't valid for SSI but spells granted by a completely different source entirely unrelated to the class are perfectly fair game?
RAI is blatantly obvious in this case, whatever the vagaries of RAW might be. Let your artificers SSI their subclass spells, folks.
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I’m inclined to agree. I think they went with “the artificer spell list” as the wording from force of habit. If they had written “one of your Artificer spells” it would have been clearer. Of course, that being the case, maybe it wasn’t a mistake after all...? But as a DM I would still allow it. However, as a player I would not argue the point if my DM chose to go by RAW.
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Your language seems a bit salty. I explained RAW and stated I allow other spells anyway.
RAW has language that adds a spell to the spell list. Dragon marks explicitly state those spells are added to the class list. SSI uses different language that states class list. The subclass spells are cast as if they are artificer spells but that does not actually place them on the artificer spell list.
It's the same argument that came and went with magical secrets which also uses the same language and also doesn't actually add those spells to the bard spell list.
The developers stated many times they use wording like that on purpose so I recommend not speaking on their behalf on what's intended. What you claim is intended is literally demonstrated in the same book regarding dragon mark spells so the intent seems supported in restricting the SSI.
Like I said, I let artificers use other spells too. I'm just explaining RAW so I'm not sure why you seem triggered on that. If you disagree you can hit up JC on twitter. I won't have any hard feelings if he backs you up. It's just a game after all. ;)
Rule of Cool. They already get to put things like False Life in it (allowing you to negate 'self' only). Their subclass spells are not that big a power boost.
The subclass spell lists don't break SSI, but the Dragonmark and Ravnica Background spell lists certainly do. You can put a goodberry spell into it, making 100 goodberries in a minute. Suddenly, you're the best healer in the party if you have time, or you can feed up to 100 people every day, and make it so they don't need water. You're Jesus now, multiplying food. You can also use your spell slots to make even more Goodberries, once you get to level 19 you can 250 goodberries in a day, using SSI and all your spell slots. Take a level in Warlock for level 20 (if you're fine with leaving behind the capstone), and you suddenly have recharging spell slots every short rest, making it so you can make even more goodberries. Not the best combo in the world, but it's good.
There are more abusable combos as well. Flaming Sphere, let your companions all have a flaming sphere. What's worse than one flaming sphere sweeping across the battlefield burning everything in its path? 10 flaming spheres. Without using any spell slots.
Also, you can spam blasting spells like Chaos Bolt, Guiding Bolt, Burning Hands, and Ray of Enfeeblement. Again, not the best use of this ability, but it's certainly not bad.
Then, there's the 2 heavy hitters. Hold Person, and Scorching Ray. Hold Person is an amazing use of this ability, because suddenly you can have nearly every party member concentrating on Hold Person while the Barbarian runs around getting Brutal Criticals on them over and over again. Or, you can have the Warlock Hex one of the held people, walk up to them, and then do Scorching Ray cast at level 4 given to them by the Chronurgist Wizard, doing a total of 30d6 to that one person that is paralyzed and hexed.
These added class lists are broken when combined with Spell Storing Item. I mean, it's legal, and you don't even need to have these spells prepared, you just choose each long rest whether you want to give the party a buttload of Hold Persons, or 100 goodberries, all for free.
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I get where you’re coming from completely. Being somewhat familiar with some of Yurie’s colorful use of language, I had interpreted his statement more like this:
Now I will repeat, that is purely my interpretation of the meaning behind the content of Yurei’s message. I do not presume to actually speak for Yurei, nor am I speaking on their behalf. Just presenting an alternative thought process.
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https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/935660582870454272?s=20
Not sure if the above tweet clears up any of this confusion or just further adds to it, but it seems relevant.
I would not allow you to use your expanded spells due to:
3 out of 4 sub classes have shield. That means you have shield on a lot, and you have armor.
As mentioned above, Flaming sphere is broken with this.
If you are an armorer, you could have everyone have a mirror image spell cast on them, buffing up everyone's defenses.
It is not like you can't do crazy things with SSI already, Cast animate objects and have your animated objects all cast catapult, or cure wounds on you. Or you can have everyone always have blur on themselves. I think the crazy combo with animate objects is broken enough for it.
When the DM smiles, it is already to late.
Shield wouldn't work with this. The spell in your SSI needs to be one that is cast with an Action. Shield requires a reaction.
Sorry, I forgot.
When the DM smiles, it is already to late.
Remember that SSI has at most 10 uses per day, and if you're casting animate objects to use the SSI more quickly that's all of those uses gone in a single day within a single combat encounter. Further the ability to do this is contingent on being able to cast Animate Objects, which Artifcers can't do until level 17 when they get access to 5th level spells. Note that this is the same level full casters get access to 9th level spells.
Compare Animate Objects + SSI casting Flaming Sphere to the 9th level spell Meteor Swarm:
The combo can do 20d6 fire damage to a single target per turn but only when all 10 spheres are focused on a single target (and only when it loses all 10 Dex saves) and only so long as each animated object (and the one who cast animate objects) can maintain their concentration.
The 9th level spell does 20d6 fire damage and 20d6 bludgeoning to all creatures within a 40 foot radius sphere centered on a point anywhere within a 1 mile range.
With teamwork this combo requires an 11th level Artificer and a 9th level full caster who can cast animate objects. It's a lot of damage, but again, it's a strategy involving teamwork. Break the concentration of the full caster and it ceases. Break the concentration of the animated object (which has a CON modifier of 0 by the way) and whatever concentration spell stored in the SSI is broken. If the party encounters an enemy immune to the damage type done by the spell stored in the SSI then that strategy is useless.
Without including subclass spells the only direct damage spells that can be used with SSI are Catapult and Heat Metal. Not bad spells by any means but it's nice to have a bit more variety in options to use SSI with.
Damage wise Flaming Sphere (2d6) is on par with Heat Metal (2d8). Except Heat Metal involves damage without requiring a save.
If heat metal with the SSI isn't broken I don't think Flaming Sphere with it is either.
At the very least flaming sphere is more interesting to describe in the situation.
The problem with having 10 flaming spheres is that they can spread out, last more than 1 round (unlike Meteor Swarm), and effect 9 squares on the battlefield each. That's 90 squares of the battlefield that deal a total of 20d6 fire damage every round. If this survives even 3 rounds, and all the flaming spheres are effecting at least one creature, you can do more damage than Meteor Swarm.
Heat metal does more damage, and on no saving thrown, but it is more situational. They need metal on them, and they need to not just drop their weapon or take off their shield. Flaming Sphere effects more people, is less avoidable, and does more damage than Heat Metal practically.
(Catapult is an awesome use of this ability. Just give an animated large creature an catapult, and it can fling parts of its body at enemies, if the DM allows it.
The expanded spell lists and subclass tables can be a problem, but again, there's so much that has to go right with some of these spells that it isn't easy to set up giant battles with 10 flaming spheres.
Personally, I think the Animate Objects is better with Hold Person or Scorching Ray in the SSI, but Flaming Sphere is still a great use.
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I mean to pull off the "whole team uses concentration thing" also means that the whole team has to be near enough to pass along the item in the first place.
Personally I find it more useful to usue it for something like Inivisible, or False Life, or one of those other long lasting, or out of battle great utility things.
Although I personally really wish that Alchemist had Guiding Bolt on their list instead of the Ray of Sickness. As that would suit them far better in their role.. (I mix florecents and throw the vial, making the enemy glow for my ally to wreck!). but I personally think their added list reallly doesn't suit their role.
(in fact next time I should really ask if i can switch the subclass spells to something that suits the class's support methods more)
You could get guiding bolt from a Ravnica background, and use it with SSI.
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