I am playing this in a game right now. My character is based on Wolverine from marvel universe. I found at low levels i'm no better than a ranger, it only gets "insane" at higher levels. Going heavy rouge like 15/5 gives you 10d6 a round, 8d6 from sneak attack and 2d6 from weapon attacks. The extra damage from two attacks and rage gets you 10d6+14 or 49 points per round. A 19 rogue gets 11d6, 10d6 sneak attack and 1d6 from weapon; a damage per round of 44. Damage is not the main reason for this build, it's tankiness. Letting a rogue have some hitpoints and staying power in melee range is a good thing.
All reckless attack is, is an attack where you forego defenses, in attempt to be more offensive
It isn't flailing attack
It isn't raging attack
It's reckless
Agreed, and sneak attack is not necessarily "sneaking it in" it's basically abusing the fact that someone is distracted in combat. I think I'd allow it, don't see how its that different from a Smiting rogue or something similar. In cases of things that might seem conflicting (had a life cleric/warlock in a party for example) I allow it if the player is willing to put in the extra effort of explaining how it works thematically.
I would allow it, it's a viable tactic many use in real life. What the combination represents is a person willing to leave themselves open to getting hit by a weaker attack in order to open an opponent up to a more vital attack in exchange.
For example, I will gladly open myself to a hit to the shoulder if it means I have access to a throat punch. This is a person who will happily go for broke and knows exactly where to strike when doing so.
The rogue part is really skilled at knowing where and how to strike for best effect.
The barbarian part knows how to create an opening in exchange for leaving themselves open.
So the barbarian part knows take a hit to hit to create an opening and the rogue part knows hot to make that hit count.
Seeing as this is a tactic I use in real life to end fights fast because most don't expect that level of ferocity, there's no good reason I can see to not allow it thematically.
It opens the barbarian/rogue combo to sneak attacks from the opponents. It actually guarantees more hits onto the NPC that is trying to gain advantage against PC's that may or may not be able to mitigate the damage equally or in other ways. And the stat requirements make the likelihood of disabling spells to land a reasonable chance which can end a lot of bonuses for the barbarian/rogue combo completely and make it even more vulnerable.
So it has something that it can do well but it pays for it in a lot of ways that actually aren't being taken into account. Being a level 5 Bear Totem barbarian/15 Inquisitive means that unless it has practically god like stats in way too many of them it's highly susceptible to charm and/or control spells and can be shut down fairly easily which then means it's bear totem protections will end up shut down because it does not have any of the rage sustaining skills of high barbarian levels.
It's a gimmick that there are easier ways to set up so personally... I'll stick to fearing pc class kobolds instead.
I wouldn't consider it broken. The more their multiclass split leans towards Rogue, sure they get more Sneak Attack damage but they've got a lot less Barbarian in them and as such won't be as tanky. Sure, it just takes 3 levels of Bear Totem to get all that sweet damage resistance, but Barbarians have plenty of really useful abilities at higher levels, not to mention those beefy d12 Hit Dice. Part of what makes Reckless Attack such a viable ability for Barbarians is that they have lots of HP to absorb the damage from the extra hits. If their Hit Dice are mostly d8's, they can't soak up as much. And if they're mostly Barbarian instead of Rogue, the Sneak Attack damage isn't so much that it would get abusive.
I wouldn't consider it broken. The more their multiclass split leans towards Rogue, sure they get more Sneak Attack damage but they've got a lot less Barbarian in them and as such won't be as tanky. Sure, it just takes 3 levels of Bear Totem to get all that sweet damage resistance, but Barbarians have plenty of really useful abilities at higher levels, not to mention those beefy d12 Hit Dice. Part of what makes Reckless Attack such a viable ability for Barbarians is that they have lots of HP to absorb the damage from the extra hits. If their Hit Dice are mostly d8's, they can't soak up as much. And if they're mostly Barbarian instead of Rogue, the Sneak Attack damage isn't so much that it would get abusive.
Interesting combo would be a totem barbarian/swashbuckler rogue, then they could get away before they get a chance to attack you. Though there's less use for having advantage (since they'd already be doing their sneak attack damage) they would have a better chance on those sweet, sweet sneak attack crits
I recklessly attack by going for the throat. I throw all caution aside to plunge my weapon into an eye, throat, chest, etc. Going into a rage doesn’t mean I put on a rebel helmet from Star wars with the blast shield on covering my eyes.
I have a barbarian level 6 and rogue level 4 and use reckless attack without an issue. DM never questioned it. Only issue was I really did not want to use a rapier as a dwarf and wanted more of a dwarf weapon. DM and me talked about it and I use a handaxe that has finesse.
Another DM mentioned it is wonky and doesn't make sense but to me it makes perfect sense. I am not aiming for vitals with pin point attacks but am aiming to slice arteries and tendons with the hand axe. I will even put myself in harms way to get at those spots like the neck, back of knee, under the shoulder, wrist and other spots like that. A slice with a axe seems more appropriate than a slice with a rapier.
One character having the personality characteristics to attack recklessly and sneakily doesn’t make sense. It defeats the whole point of having classes at all. Unless,...the character has two personalities and you have to roll before each encounter to decide which personality comes out.
One character having the personality characteristics to attack recklessly and sneakily doesn’t make sense. It defeats the whole point of having classes at all. Unless,...the character has two personalities and you have to roll before each encounter to decide which personality comes out.
This only an issue if your brain adheres to the old school stereotypes.
I think that the idea of a character opening up their defenses in the hopes of inflicting crucial damage is a very simple concept that works well.
Its not because you are a rogue that you have to be a sneaky assasin, its not because you're a barb that you're a mindless brute that has no idea how to fight with tactics in mind.
For the dm's against it consider this. I'm playing it in a game as a bugbear. Their whole thing is sneaky brutality. I play the combo as a bugbear slipping behind someone and using a blade to tear wildly into someone soft spots. I know how to get behind someone and quickly see the most vital places then I tear into them with no regard for their life. Just kind of the bugbear style. Sneak attack comes from the actual strike, the little rage damage comes from the blade in the wound still moving and causing damage as they thrash around.
It's quite surprising to see how many DMs are completely willing to screw their players over by not allowing a sneak attack on reckless attack. It's not even a little game breaking or even overpowered, and yet the arbitrary ban hammer is out early and often.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
It's a role playing thing. So a DM looking for more role playing does not like what looks to them like a shear Power Gaming move.
Best way to deal with this is to PUSH the role playing.
Don't simply say "I take X levels of Rogue".
Instead think long and hard about how and why a Roguish Barbarian could be created and make it work. Talk not about striking carefully, but instead about distracting the foe. (Sneak attack refers to both). Do it as a performance bit.
"I am going to cut your head off. It's going to fall behind you and the last thing you are going to see is your own ass. !"
I pull back my axe and as he raises his shield to protect his head, at the last second I shift my aim and slam my axe into his groin. I roll a d20 and get a 19. Damn, I just miss his balls, but do manage to do +2d6 sneak attack damage to his leg.
Slightly off-topic, but it's even better once you get brutal critical. Critting with sneak attack and brutal critical churns out insane amounts of damage.
And if you take assassin, you crit whenever your opponent's surprised.
Slightly off-topic, but it's even better once you get brutal critical. Critting with sneak attack and brutal critical churns out insane amounts of damage.
And if you take assassin, you crit whenever your opponent's surprised.
Combined with the Bugbear's Surprise attack, you've got a brutal first round of damage.
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It's a role playing thing. So a DM looking for more role playing does not like what looks to them like a shear Power Gaming move.
Best way to deal with this is to PUSH the role playing.
Don't simply say "I take X levels of Rogue".
Instead think long and hard about how and why a Roguish Barbarian could be created and make it work. Talk not about striking carefully, but instead about distracting the foe. (Sneak attack refers to both). Do it as a performance bit.
"I am going to cut your head off. It's going to fall behind you and the last thing you are going to see is your own ass. !"
I pull back my axe and as he raises his shield to protect his head, at the last second I shift my aim and slam my axe into his groin. I roll a d20 and get a 19. Damn, I just miss his balls, but do manage to do +2d6 sneak attack damage to his leg.
Why does rage have to be...rage? Why can't it be a combat focus? Forcing a per-conceived notion of just exactly what a character's class abilities is the antithesis of roleplay.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
As a DM, I would consider this an exploit of a game mechanic that combines two contradicting types of attacks and would not allow it.
As others have stated, I think you may be to wrapped up in the names of these things instead what they actually are. Instead of thinking its to OP how about just create encounters that challenge that strength?Aka Remoraz (sp?), rust monsters, etc. You challenge the players strengths, they get to feel like a b@darse for using their abilites in incredible ways, and the encounter is still an actual challenge. You are the DM. Make your players styles be able to fit in and allow everyone to enjoy the game. Remember it isnt a DM vs Player game....unless its that one crazy ass old dungeon map. I forget the name of it right now, but its designed to kill you sooooo yeah.
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I am playing this in a game right now. My character is based on Wolverine from marvel universe. I found at low levels i'm no better than a ranger, it only gets "insane" at higher levels. Going heavy rouge like 15/5 gives you 10d6 a round, 8d6 from sneak attack and 2d6 from weapon attacks. The extra damage from two attacks and rage gets you 10d6+14 or 49 points per round. A 19 rogue gets 11d6, 10d6 sneak attack and 1d6 from weapon; a damage per round of 44. Damage is not the main reason for this build, it's tankiness. Letting a rogue have some hitpoints and staying power in melee range is a good thing.
Agreed, and sneak attack is not necessarily "sneaking it in" it's basically abusing the fact that someone is distracted in combat. I think I'd allow it, don't see how its that different from a Smiting rogue or something similar. In cases of things that might seem conflicting (had a life cleric/warlock in a party for example) I allow it if the player is willing to put in the extra effort of explaining how it works thematically.
If it's for an NPC, and you're the GM, it works if you want it to work.
I would allow it, it's a viable tactic many use in real life. What the combination represents is a person willing to leave themselves open to getting hit by a weaker attack in order to open an opponent up to a more vital attack in exchange.
For example, I will gladly open myself to a hit to the shoulder if it means I have access to a throat punch. This is a person who will happily go for broke and knows exactly where to strike when doing so.
The rogue part is really skilled at knowing where and how to strike for best effect.
The barbarian part knows how to create an opening in exchange for leaving themselves open.
So the barbarian part knows take a hit to hit to create an opening and the rogue part knows hot to make that hit count.
Seeing as this is a tactic I use in real life to end fights fast because most don't expect that level of ferocity, there's no good reason I can see to not allow it thematically.
Arden that's actually it's fatal flaw.
It opens the barbarian/rogue combo to sneak attacks from the opponents. It actually guarantees more hits onto the NPC that is trying to gain advantage against PC's that may or may not be able to mitigate the damage equally or in other ways. And the stat requirements make the likelihood of disabling spells to land a reasonable chance which can end a lot of bonuses for the barbarian/rogue combo completely and make it even more vulnerable.
So it has something that it can do well but it pays for it in a lot of ways that actually aren't being taken into account. Being a level 5 Bear Totem barbarian/15 Inquisitive means that unless it has practically god like stats in way too many of them it's highly susceptible to charm and/or control spells and can be shut down fairly easily which then means it's bear totem protections will end up shut down because it does not have any of the rage sustaining skills of high barbarian levels.
It's a gimmick that there are easier ways to set up so personally... I'll stick to fearing pc class kobolds instead.
Exactly, it's not the least bit broken.
I wouldn't consider it broken. The more their multiclass split leans towards Rogue, sure they get more Sneak Attack damage but they've got a lot less Barbarian in them and as such won't be as tanky. Sure, it just takes 3 levels of Bear Totem to get all that sweet damage resistance, but Barbarians have plenty of really useful abilities at higher levels, not to mention those beefy d12 Hit Dice. Part of what makes Reckless Attack such a viable ability for Barbarians is that they have lots of HP to absorb the damage from the extra hits. If their Hit Dice are mostly d8's, they can't soak up as much. And if they're mostly Barbarian instead of Rogue, the Sneak Attack damage isn't so much that it would get abusive.
Interesting combo would be a totem barbarian/swashbuckler rogue, then they could get away before they get a chance to attack you. Though there's less use for having advantage (since they'd already be doing their sneak attack damage) they would have a better chance on those sweet, sweet sneak attack crits
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
I'm now picturing this character. "It makes me so ANGRY that these guys aren't PAYING ATTENTION! WHY are they so BAD AT THEIR JOBS?! ARGH!"
I recklessly attack by going for the throat. I throw all caution aside to plunge my weapon into an eye, throat, chest, etc. Going into a rage doesn’t mean I put on a rebel helmet from Star wars with the blast shield on covering my eyes.
I have a barbarian level 6 and rogue level 4 and use reckless attack without an issue. DM never questioned it. Only issue was I really did not want to use a rapier as a dwarf and wanted more of a dwarf weapon. DM and me talked about it and I use a handaxe that has finesse.
Another DM mentioned it is wonky and doesn't make sense but to me it makes perfect sense. I am not aiming for vitals with pin point attacks but am aiming to slice arteries and tendons with the hand axe. I will even put myself in harms way to get at those spots like the neck, back of knee, under the shoulder, wrist and other spots like that. A slice with a axe seems more appropriate than a slice with a rapier.
Ya I agree 100%.
One character having the personality characteristics to attack recklessly and sneakily doesn’t make sense. It defeats the whole point of having classes at all. Unless,...the character has two personalities and you have to roll before each encounter to decide which personality comes out.
This only an issue if your brain adheres to the old school stereotypes.
I think that the idea of a character opening up their defenses in the hopes of inflicting crucial damage is a very simple concept that works well.
Its not because you are a rogue that you have to be a sneaky assasin, its not because you're a barb that you're a mindless brute that has no idea how to fight with tactics in mind.
For the dm's against it consider this. I'm playing it in a game as a bugbear. Their whole thing is sneaky brutality. I play the combo as a bugbear slipping behind someone and using a blade to tear wildly into someone soft spots. I know how to get behind someone and quickly see the most vital places then I tear into them with no regard for their life. Just kind of the bugbear style. Sneak attack comes from the actual strike, the little rage damage comes from the blade in the wound still moving and causing damage as they thrash around.
It's quite surprising to see how many DMs are completely willing to screw their players over by not allowing a sneak attack on reckless attack. It's not even a little game breaking or even overpowered, and yet the arbitrary ban hammer is out early and often.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
It's a role playing thing. So a DM looking for more role playing does not like what looks to them like a shear Power Gaming move.
Best way to deal with this is to PUSH the role playing.
Don't simply say "I take X levels of Rogue".
Instead think long and hard about how and why a Roguish Barbarian could be created and make it work. Talk not about striking carefully, but instead about distracting the foe. (Sneak attack refers to both). Do it as a performance bit.
"I am going to cut your head off. It's going to fall behind you and the last thing you are going to see is your own ass. !"
I pull back my axe and as he raises his shield to protect his head, at the last second I shift my aim and slam my axe into his groin. I roll a d20 and get a 19. Damn, I just miss his balls, but do manage to do +2d6 sneak attack damage to his leg.
Slightly off-topic, but it's even better once you get brutal critical. Critting with sneak attack and brutal critical churns out insane amounts of damage.
And if you take assassin, you crit whenever your opponent's surprised.
Please check out my homebrew and give me feedback!
Subclasses | Races | Spells | Magic Items | Monsters | Feats | Backgrounds
Combined with the Bugbear's Surprise attack, you've got a brutal first round of damage.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Why does rage have to be...rage? Why can't it be a combat focus? Forcing a per-conceived notion of just exactly what a character's class abilities is the antithesis of roleplay.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
As others have stated, I think you may be to wrapped up in the names of these things instead what they actually are. Instead of thinking its to OP how about just create encounters that challenge that strength?Aka Remoraz (sp?), rust monsters, etc. You challenge the players strengths, they get to feel like a b@darse for using their abilites in incredible ways, and the encounter is still an actual challenge. You are the DM. Make your players styles be able to fit in and allow everyone to enjoy the game. Remember it isnt a DM vs Player game....unless its that one crazy ass old dungeon map. I forget the name of it right now, but its designed to kill you sooooo yeah.