Erriku, as an outsider looking in I interpreted his post to be very amicable. I think you two should bro hug.
He heavily implies that his behavior is retaliatory to the advice that he needs to find a new group if he is being abused by his DM. If you do not want to see it though, then I suppose you are not going to. The simple fact of the matter is that he has had an unchanged opinion in almost 5 years. It is likely that there is nothing that can be said that would change his mind anyway, despite the fact that his definition of what it means to 'suck' is overly narrow and prevents any kind of meaningful discussion. If you define your term of 'suck' as being the only subclass with a guaranteed penalty and refuse to consider any other factors, then there is no debate to be had and this thread has no purpose beyond basically serving as a convenient place to express disdain. Do we not have enough of these threads and these posters?
I myself believe that the Berserker subclass does not suck. I believe that its limitations take on a different form and am not afraid of this shift from typical class and subclass limitations. I admit that one has to consider their current situation whenever entertaining the use of Frenzy though, but why is this bad? It has not negatively impacted my play experience in any noteworthy way and the objections to why that may be the case are assumptions that are not true to my lived experience. I would like to see discussion from those who actually have played this subclass at multiple tiers of gameplay. I can only comment from experience on the lowest tier of level progression and I am very satisfied with my experiences so far. I have played other subclasses with far less pleasing experiences at the same 'gonzo' table (derisive label courtesy of Slaine000) with the same players. For example, the Way of the Sun Soul was not a very satisfying play experience. Trying Storm Sorcery is going to get you killed with reasonable certainty unless you optimize. The Undying and College of Valor are just... meh. Path of the Totem Warrior, at least in my opinion, has many decision points that allows for customization, but very clear 'wrong' choices and limited 'right' choices at these decision points. For me, PotTW, while very powerful, fails to do well what it is meant to do, and that just kind of... sucks.
My problem with it is this. It is the ONLY one with a guaranteed downside. But the benefit is no better than a Zealot barb, which has no downsides. That is the problem. If this benefit scaled better then I think things would be different. But no one is saying this is the best Barb damage wise, no one is saying the berserker is top in any category. And if you are going to slap on such a big penalty there needs to be a SIGNIFICANT benefit, more than it is now. Extra attack and double rage damage. Extra attack and prof on each his damage wise. Perhaps even a bigger step up than that. Because it needs to beat all other barbs damage wise if this is how it is going to operate.
I am all for there being risks. Perhaps not guaranteed disadvantage on all ability checks for one use risk, but risks. and risks that are matched by a suitably big reward for the penalty.
My problem with it is this. It is the ONLY one with a guaranteed downside. But the benefit is no better than a Zealot barb, which has no downsides . . .
This isn't entirely accurate. The extra damage from Frenzy is about equal to Divine Fury and Polearm Master. So the Berserker has an extra ASI over a Zealot build that wants compete in damage with Berserker. When I compared Berserker to Zealot I left this out to keep the math simple. In reality when the Zealot picks up Polearm Master the Berserker either picks up GWM or an ASI. At that point you have to factor in hit chance across a range of AC values. Also the Zealot wins in damage at levels 10+ because Divine Fury scales with class level and Frenzy doesn't.
The fact that Frenzy causes Exhaustion is a problem but I feel it is far from the worst problem Berserker faces. Here is how I would rank them:
1) PAM is too good. I have been avoiding commenting on this because I don't want to take the thread off topic, but it is just too good.
2) Intimidating Presence is a player trap. If you REALLY want to do something defensive and help control the battlefield you are better off taking the Dodge action and positioning yourself somewhere key. Also possibly getting enemies to use their OAs on you with disadvantage instead of on your squishier allies.
3) The detriment of Frenzy is too hard to recover from. If your party is engaging in combat on a regular basis you have to be careful with how often you Frenzy. This ironically makes the Berserker better for social intrigue and mystery games because they can really shine when combat does occur.
4) This one I am less certain about but I think Retaliation comes online too late. Maybe having such a consistent reaction attack is good enough to warrant being a level 14 class feature. But then again, see point 1. I really think Berserker should have gotten Zealot's Rage Beyond Death but that is just because it is what Berserker got in previous editions.
My problem with it is this. It is the ONLY one with a guaranteed downside. But the benefit is no better than a Zealot barb, which has no downsides . . .
This isn't entirely accurate. The extra damage from Frenzy is about equal to Divine Fury and Polearm Master. So the Berserker has an extra ASI over a Zealot build that wants compete in damage with Berserker. When I compared Berserker to Zealot I left this out to keep the math simple. In reality when the Zealot picks up Polearm Master the Berserker either picks up GWM or an ASI. At that point you have to factor in hit chance across a range of AC values. Also the Zealot wins in damage at levels 10+ because Divine Fury scales with class level and Frenzy doesn't.
The fact that Frenzy causes Exhaustion is a problem but I feel it is far from the worst problem Berserker faces. Here is how I would rank them:
1) PAM is too good. I have been avoiding commenting on this because I don't want to take the thread off topic, but it is just too good.
2) Intimidating Presence is a player trap. If you REALLY want to do something defensive and help control the battlefield you are better off taking the Dodge action and positioning yourself somewhere key. Also possibly getting enemies to use their OAs on you with disadvantage instead of on your squishier allies.
3) The detriment of Frenzy is too hard to recover from. If your party is engaging in combat on a regular basis you have to be careful with how often you Frenzy. This ironically makes the Berserker better for social intrigue and mystery games because they can really shine when combat does occur.
4) This one I am less certain about but I think Retaliation comes online too late. Maybe having such a consistent reaction attack is good enough to warrant being a level 14 class feature. But then again, see point 1. I really think Berserker should have gotten Zealot's Rage Beyond Death but that is just because it is what Berserker got in previous editions.
But even you say here that the berserker doesn’t always do more damage. At a specific point it is better maybe. Then falls off. And one of them has a huge cost to have that power. The other has zero cost. if they want to have this huge cost the power needs to beat the free usage every single time because you can’t use it consistently.
even if a feat comes into play that makes zero difference. It’s a feat you were going to take anyway (according to you) and it gives you what frenzy does (with a smaller damage die) for free, no costs. Plus other benefits.
straight up we either need lower risk to match the reward, higher reward to match the risk, or both a lowering of the risk and a boost of the reward. That or give a freebie once a day.
another option, make the crit threshold a 16-18.
perhaps make it so you can take damage/lower your ac/increase damage taken to boost damage on hit
my vote is making it a chance of exhaustion (con save), AND your rage bonus damage is doubled/has proficiency added to it. Then entirely rework intimidating presence. It’s utterly useless as it scales of charisma.
Oh I agree that the consequences of Frenzy seem unnecessary when PAM Zealot exists. I just wanted to clarify that it is the combination PAM with Divine Fury that roughly equals Frenzy, not just Divine Fury on its own.
. . . even if a feat comes into play that makes zero difference. It’s a feat you were going to take anyway (according to you) and it gives you what frenzy does (with a smaller damage die) for free, no costs. Plus other benefits . . .
I actually wouldn't recommend PAM for a Berserker. It overlaps too much with the subclass features and limits you to a weapon with worse damage dice. Sure it helps close the gap between Rage and Frenzy but I would rather pick something that helped both.
pretty simple solution for 13 pages of responses. Just drop the exhaustion part, or have it one goes away with a short rest, all go away with a long rest. fixed, your welcome :)
pretty simple solution for 13 pages of responses. Just drop the exhaustion part, or have it one goes away with a short rest, all go away with a long rest. fixed, your welcome :)
That would certainly help. I would actually say give it a little extra, or just make it a con save or exhaustion. Even without the exhaustion it could probably do with a bit more.
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My problem with it is this. It is the ONLY one with a guaranteed downside. But the benefit is no better than a Zealot barb, which has no downsides. That is the problem. If this benefit scaled better then I think things would be different. But no one is saying this is the best Barb damage wise, no one is saying the berserker is top in any category. And if you are going to slap on such a big penalty there needs to be a SIGNIFICANT benefit, more than it is now. Extra attack and double rage damage. Extra attack and prof on each his damage wise. Perhaps even a bigger step up than that. Because it needs to beat all other barbs damage wise if this is how it is going to operate.
I am all for there being risks. Perhaps not guaranteed disadvantage on all ability checks for one use risk, but risks. and risks that are matched by a suitably big reward for the penalty.
That balance does not feel met even close atm
This isn't entirely accurate. The extra damage from Frenzy is about equal to Divine Fury and Polearm Master. So the Berserker has an extra ASI over a Zealot build that wants compete in damage with Berserker. When I compared Berserker to Zealot I left this out to keep the math simple. In reality when the Zealot picks up Polearm Master the Berserker either picks up GWM or an ASI. At that point you have to factor in hit chance across a range of AC values. Also the Zealot wins in damage at levels 10+ because Divine Fury scales with class level and Frenzy doesn't.
The fact that Frenzy causes Exhaustion is a problem but I feel it is far from the worst problem Berserker faces. Here is how I would rank them:
1) PAM is too good. I have been avoiding commenting on this because I don't want to take the thread off topic, but it is just too good.
2) Intimidating Presence is a player trap. If you REALLY want to do something defensive and help control the battlefield you are better off taking the Dodge action and positioning yourself somewhere key. Also possibly getting enemies to use their OAs on you with disadvantage instead of on your squishier allies.
3) The detriment of Frenzy is too hard to recover from. If your party is engaging in combat on a regular basis you have to be careful with how often you Frenzy. This ironically makes the Berserker better for social intrigue and mystery games because they can really shine when combat does occur.
4) This one I am less certain about but I think Retaliation comes online too late. Maybe having such a consistent reaction attack is good enough to warrant being a level 14 class feature. But then again, see point 1. I really think Berserker should have gotten Zealot's Rage Beyond Death but that is just because it is what Berserker got in previous editions.
But even you say here that the berserker doesn’t always do more damage. At a specific point it is better maybe. Then falls off. And one of them has a huge cost to have that power. The other has zero cost.
if they want to have this huge cost the power needs to beat the free usage every single time because you can’t use it consistently.
even if a feat comes into play that makes zero difference. It’s a feat you were going to take anyway (according to you) and it gives you what frenzy does (with a smaller damage die) for free, no costs. Plus other benefits.
straight up we either need lower risk to match the reward, higher reward to match the risk, or both a lowering of the risk and a boost of the reward. That or give a freebie once a day.
another option, make the crit threshold a 16-18.
perhaps make it so you can take damage/lower your ac/increase damage taken to boost damage on hit
my vote is making it a chance of exhaustion (con save), AND your rage bonus damage is doubled/has proficiency added to it. Then entirely rework intimidating presence. It’s utterly useless as it scales of charisma.
Oh I agree that the consequences of Frenzy seem unnecessary when PAM Zealot exists. I just wanted to clarify that it is the combination PAM with Divine Fury that roughly equals Frenzy, not just Divine Fury on its own.
I actually wouldn't recommend PAM for a Berserker. It overlaps too much with the subclass features and limits you to a weapon with worse damage dice. Sure it helps close the gap between Rage and Frenzy but I would rather pick something that helped both.
pretty simple solution for 13 pages of responses. Just drop the exhaustion part, or have it one goes away with a short rest, all go away with a long rest. fixed, your welcome :)
That would certainly help. I would actually say give it a little extra, or just make it a con save or exhaustion. Even without the exhaustion it could probably do with a bit more.