What an interesting conversation about the best class in DnD.
So we are operating under the assumption that barbarians are the only tank in the party. I always likened the 5e Barbarians to Roadhog or Zarya from Overwatch. Not a great main tanks but stellar off-tanks that have some cool abilities to hang around and vomit out damage in a burst. To the OP, that is their point. Put a barbarian and paladin close together and watch to your players' horror as both of them are up 10 rounds later. Or worse yet, two different subclasses of barbarian. They make excellent secondary tanks because of the hybrid damage mitigation and and damage output they have.
As a main tank I am not sure the barbarian does the best job, at least not in 5e. I miss the days of Str and Con and movement buffs while raging. This would help with their overall ability to sustain as well. Outside of busted things like Bear totem and Ancestral Guardian a lot of them struggle quite a bit to tank a mob's damage. They do more damage than mitigate or soak up damage in my opinion.
I'm curious why you don't think Barbarians make the best main tank. They don't get heavy armor, but that's more than offset by halving most damage and the highest hit dice.
I've only ever had one player who could out tank my barbarian. It was a very specific warforged paladin/sorcerer build with the defense fighting style, full plate, a shield, and the shield spell. I think he had 22 AC at tier 1 with no magic items, AND he would cast shield when enemies got lucky. That was ridiculous lol. But yeah, on more normal common builds I think the barbarians edge out most fighters and paladins in being able to take punishment.
Hard to say. Barbarian is my favorite class in DnD. It is not that I don't think they can't main tank, it is more like I have more success with them as off-tanks or with a melee partner. I have main tanked with the barbarians before but a number of them end up being giants, a huge bag of HP that smacks hard, in my opinion. Fire a couple of spells at one that isn't a Bear totem and you start to get into trouble, so hopefully a caster has your back or something.
Hard to say. Barbarian is my favorite class in DnD. It is not that I don't think they can't main tank, it is more like I have more success with them as off-tanks or with a melee partner. I have main tanked with the barbarians before but a number of them end up being giants, a huge bag of HP that smacks hard, in my opinion. Fire a couple of spells at one that isn't a Bear totem and you start to get into trouble, so hopefully a caster has your back or something.
There are barbarians other than Bear totem? WTF? Why? ;)
Hard to say. Barbarian is my favorite class in DnD. It is not that I don't think they can't main tank, it is more like I have more success with them as off-tanks or with a melee partner. I have main tanked with the barbarians before but a number of them end up being giants, a huge bag of HP that smacks hard, in my opinion. Fire a couple of spells at one that isn't a Bear totem and you start to get into trouble, so hopefully a caster has your back or something.
There are barbarians other than Bear totem? WTF? Why? ;)
Maybe because I like to play the game on hard mode. Maybe because everybody can see how broken the bear totem ability is for a level 3 character / ability, and while we all like it we all know it should be on like a level 6 or level 14 ability. Maybe because I want to give all the other subclasses a chance and show people that barbarian isn't just a totem sort of thing. The thing that really pisses me off is that none of the other barbarians except the berserker gets exhaustion.
Hard to say. Barbarian is my favorite class in DnD. It is not that I don't think they can't main tank, it is more like I have more success with them as off-tanks or with a melee partner. I have main tanked with the barbarians before but a number of them end up being giants, a huge bag of HP that smacks hard, in my opinion. Fire a couple of spells at one that isn't a Bear totem and you start to get into trouble, so hopefully a caster has your back or something.
There are barbarians other than Bear totem? WTF? Why? ;)
Maybe because I like to play the game on hard mode. Maybe because everybody can see how broken the bear totem ability is for a level 3 character / ability, and while we all like it we all know it should be on like a level 6 or level 14 ability. Maybe because I want to give all the other subclasses a chance and show people that barbarian isn't just a totem sort of thing. The thing that really pisses me off is that none of the other barbarians except the berserker gets exhaustion.
Agreed on berserker. It's so debilitating a condition, that I wouldn't even consider playing a berserker barbarian! I think the whole rage mechanic relying on taking damage or making an attack can be an issue, if the DM wants to move foes away from you. Some DMs allow you to punch yourself to take damage and maintain rage, but does any other class have to injure itself to maintain a core ability? lol
Hard to say. Barbarian is my favorite class in DnD. It is not that I don't think they can't main tank, it is more like I have more success with them as off-tanks or with a melee partner. I have main tanked with the barbarians before but a number of them end up being giants, a huge bag of HP that smacks hard, in my opinion. Fire a couple of spells at one that isn't a Bear totem and you start to get into trouble, so hopefully a caster has your back or something.
There are barbarians other than Bear totem? WTF? Why? ;)
There are some great Barbarians. Personally I find the 3rd level Bear Totem to be boring. It's passive damage reduction Zzzzz...
There are some great Barbarian options. Zealot gives a nice damage boost, though the other abilities are meh... Ancestral Guardian is actually amazing. Path of the Beast is HUGELY underrated IMO.
If you like damage Zealot with the feats is literally like the best damage DPR in the game....
At will advantage with GWM+PAM+Zealot damage means you can blenderize things pretty quickly.
Having seen an Ancestral guardian barb in action I can say they are likely the best tank in the game hands down....their kit makes it very hard to kill others in the party.
Bear totem is good and top 3 overall for me...but its hardly the only one.
If you like damage Zealot with the feats is literally like the best damage DPR in the game....
At will advantage with GWM+PAM+Zealot damage means you can blenderize things pretty quickly.
Having seen an Ancestral guardian barb in action I can say they are likely the best tank in the game hands down....their kit makes it very hard to kill others in the party.
Bear totem is good and top 3 overall for me...but its hardly the only one.
I really need to play one. These are all SO good! My comments in red.
Ancestral Protectors
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, spectral warriors appear when you enter your rage. While you’re raging, the first creature you hit with an attack on your turn becomes the target of the warriors, which hinder its attacks. Until the start of your next turn, that target has disadvantage on any attack roll that isn’t against you, and when the target hits a creature other than you with an attack, that creature has resistance to the damage dealt by the attack. The effect on the target ends early if your rage ends.
That big bad is attacking your Wizard... ::WACK!:: Not anymore.
Spirit Shield
Beginning at 6th level, the guardian spirits that aid you can provide supernatural protection to those you defend. If you are raging and another creature you can see within 30 feet of you takes damage, you can use your reaction to reduce that damage by 2d6.
When you reach certain levels in this class, you can reduce the damage by more: by 3d6 at 10th level and by 4d6 at 14th level.
Freaking damage reduction at will - every turn. And you only really need your reaction for opportunity attacks.
Consult the Spirits
At 10th level, you gain the ability to consult with your ancestral spirits. When you do so, you cast the auguryor clairvoyance spell, without using a spell slot or material components. Rather than creating a spherical sensor, this use of clairvoyance invisibly summons one of your ancestral spirits to the chosen location. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for these spells.
After you cast either spell in this way, you can’t use this feature again until you finish a short or long rest.
This is so flavorful and useful! You're consulting spirits that are functionally making you a (very mini) divination wizard.
Vengeful Ancestors
At 14th level, your ancestral spirits grow powerful enough to retaliate. When you use your Spirit Shield to reduce the damage of an attack, the attacker takes an amount of force damage equal to the damage that your Spirit Shield prevents.
You're essentially removing 14 points of damage from your allies, and dishing out 14 back to the enemies every turn. At level 14 that's not overwhelming, but enough that it's not trivial. Would love to get a damage buff sooner, but wow do they lean into the party protector theme!
Ancestral Guardian isn't among the most powerful subclasses in the game, but I do think it's among the most well-deigned.
Yeah not really a fan of the punch myself to keep raging sort of thing. It seems like you not out of control angry. That being said, not every Barbarian plays into the angry rage monster mechanic. I know I have not in the past.
The Zealot is probably my next favorite after the ancestrial guardian. It does extra damage and reminds me of Sion a bit from League of Legends with the raging beyond death, that sounds like tons of fun to me. What makes the Path of the Beast underrated or potentially strong? I will admit, it does not look that interesting to me, neither of the Tasha Barbarian subclasses did.
As for the Ancestrial Guardian Barbarian, it is the one out of all of them that screams tank the most to me. This is one of the barbarian subclasses I have mained the tank as. It is very hard for enemies to stop the rogue or monk when ghosties are making them even harder to hit. LOL
Yeah not really a fan of the punch myself to keep raging sort of thing. It seems like you not out of control angry. That being said, not every Barbarian plays into the angry rage monster mechanic. I know I have not in the past.
The Zealot is probably my next favorite after the ancestrial guardian. It does extra damage and reminds me of Sion a bit from League of Legends with the raging beyond death, that sounds like tons of fun to me. What makes the Path of the Beast underrated or potentially strong? I will admit, it does not look that interesting to me, neither of the Tasha Barbarian subclasses did.
As for the Ancestrial Guardian Barbarian, it is the one out of all of them that screams tank the most to me. This is one of the barbarian subclasses I have mained the tank as. It is very hard for enemies to stop the rogue or monk when ghosties are making them even harder to hit. LOL
Yeah mine was paired with a rogue and the rogue would reaction to half one attack on themselves.and the barb would reaction to reduce the other.... It was hard to get them down
Yeah not really a fan of the punch myself to keep raging sort of thing. It seems like you not out of control angry. That being said, not every Barbarian plays into the angry rage monster mechanic. I know I have not in the past.
The Zealot is probably my next favorite after the ancestrial guardian. It does extra damage and reminds me of Sion a bit from League of Legends with the raging beyond death, that sounds like tons of fun to me. What makes the Path of the Beast underrated or potentially strong? I will admit, it does not look that interesting to me, neither of the Tasha Barbarian subclasses did.
As for the Ancestrial Guardian Barbarian, it is the one out of all of them that screams tank the most to me. This is one of the barbarian subclasses I have mained the tank as. It is very hard for enemies to stop the rogue or monk when ghosties are making them even harder to hit. LOL
Yeah mine was paired with a rogue and the rogue would reaction to half one attack on themselves.and the barb would reaction to reduce the other.... It was hard to get them down
Hard to say. Barbarian is my favorite class in DnD. It is not that I don't think they can't main tank, it is more like I have more success with them as off-tanks or with a melee partner. I have main tanked with the barbarians before but a number of them end up being giants, a huge bag of HP that smacks hard, in my opinion. Fire a couple of spells at one that isn't a Bear totem and you start to get into trouble, so hopefully a caster has your back or something.
There are barbarians other than Bear totem? WTF? Why? ;)
Maybe because I like to play the game on hard mode. Maybe because everybody can see how broken the bear totem ability is for a level 3 character / ability, and while we all like it we all know it should be on like a level 6 or level 14 ability. Maybe because I want to give all the other subclasses a chance and show people that barbarian isn't just a totem sort of thing. The thing that really pisses me off is that none of the other barbarians except the berserker gets exhaustion.
Agreed on berserker. It's so debilitating a condition, that I wouldn't even consider playing a berserker barbarian! I think the whole rage mechanic relying on taking damage or making an attack can be an issue, if the DM wants to move foes away from you. Some DMs allow you to punch yourself to take damage and maintain rage, but does any other class have to injure itself to maintain a core ability? lol
It can be an issue. Though Once they are in range of a barbarian. Plenty of things have to really want to get away from the barbarian to actually escape them. Fast movement sadly doesn't kick in until 5th level (though I honestly wish it was sooner. I personally would have switched this and danger sense if I had written the class). But the Barbarian, specially after 5th level with that only 10' extra, really can create a situation of "Dedicate your turn to run away from me or face my wrath." Though this does of course mean that DM's have to play monsters and NPC's in a fashion where they would actually even think of running away in the first place. Which is valuable for tanking in it's own way if you can force things to use up entire turns just running around like chickens. Because Despite the fact that they are only gaining an additional 10'. That 40' movement range tells anything that moves 30'-40' in a round "A Single Move Action does not save you from the Barbarian" in many situations if the Barbarian is of a mind to chase them.
The Real Weakness to Barbarian's Rage when it comes to movement is really the ones that started out somewhere unreachable or too far away and function well at that kind of range to never be threatened by the Barbarian in the first place if they can manage to stay out in that kind of nebulous range beyond. Which Sometimes they can and Sometimes they can't. But this largely consists of your flying opponents, Your spell snipers and your sharp shooters. And This is one of the places that the Barbarian needs help from other party members, Either to deal with those ranged units while they deal with the melee, or to cast spells on the barbarian to enhance their movement or make them fly.
Hard to say. Barbarian is my favorite class in DnD. It is not that I don't think they can't main tank, it is more like I have more success with them as off-tanks or with a melee partner. I have main tanked with the barbarians before but a number of them end up being giants, a huge bag of HP that smacks hard, in my opinion. Fire a couple of spells at one that isn't a Bear totem and you start to get into trouble, so hopefully a caster has your back or something.
There are barbarians other than Bear totem? WTF? Why? ;)
Maybe because I like to play the game on hard mode. Maybe because everybody can see how broken the bear totem ability is for a level 3 character / ability, and while we all like it we all know it should be on like a level 6 or level 14 ability. Maybe because I want to give all the other subclasses a chance and show people that barbarian isn't just a totem sort of thing. The thing that really pisses me off is that none of the other barbarians except the berserker gets exhaustion.
Agreed on berserker. It's so debilitating a condition, that I wouldn't even consider playing a berserker barbarian! I think the whole rage mechanic relying on taking damage or making an attack can be an issue, if the DM wants to move foes away from you. Some DMs allow you to punch yourself to take damage and maintain rage, but does any other class have to injure itself to maintain a core ability? lol
It can be an issue. Though Once they are in range of a barbarian. Plenty of things have to really want to get away from the barbarian to actually escape them. Fast movement sadly doesn't kick in until 5th level (though I honestly wish it was sooner. I personally would have switched this and danger sense if I had written the class). But the Barbarian, specially after 5th level with that only 10' extra, really can create a situation of "Dedicate your turn to run away from me or face my wrath." Though this does of course mean that DM's have to play monsters and NPC's in a fashion where they would actually even think of running away in the first place. Which is valuable for tanking in it's own way if you can force things to use up entire turns just running around like chickens. Because Despite the fact that they are only gaining an additional 10'. That 40' movement range tells anything that moves 30'-40' in a round "A Single Move Action does not save you from the Barbarian" in many situations if the Barbarian is of a mind to chase them.
The Real Weakness to Barbarian's Rage when it comes to movement is really the ones that started out somewhere unreachable or too far away and function well at that kind of range to never be threatened by the Barbarian in the first place if they can manage to stay out in that kind of nebulous range beyond. Which Sometimes they can and Sometimes they can't. But this largely consists of your flying opponents, Your spell snipers and your sharp shooters. And This is one of the places that the Barbarian needs help from other party members, Either to deal with those ranged units while they deal with the melee, or to cast spells on the barbarian to enhance their movement or make them fly.
I kind of wish the Barbarian got the same sort of movement buffs as the monk but perhaps not as frequent. That way they could keep up. Also, you can throw handaxes, javelins and whatnot to stay raging, but they have limited ranges as is and it is less damage which hurts but you can do it. I still wish you could chase enemies down a bit easier though.
Being out of range is rough but it's something you got to consider before you rage.
Also I homebrew that if you use your action to dash at an enemy I let it proc rage because Sprinting at something you want to kill is pretty rage inducing to me lol
Being out of range is rough but it's something you got to consider before you rage.
Also I homebrew that if you use your action to dash at an enemy I let it proc rage because Sprinting at something you want to kill is pretty rage inducing to me lol
Somebody has these NFL Blitz Barbarians runnin' around. LOL
I love it!
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Hard to say. Barbarian is my favorite class in DnD. It is not that I don't think they can't main tank, it is more like I have more success with them as off-tanks or with a melee partner. I have main tanked with the barbarians before but a number of them end up being giants, a huge bag of HP that smacks hard, in my opinion. Fire a couple of spells at one that isn't a Bear totem and you start to get into trouble, so hopefully a caster has your back or something.
There are barbarians other than Bear totem? WTF? Why? ;)
Not sure
Maybe because I like to play the game on hard mode. Maybe because everybody can see how broken the bear totem ability is for a level 3 character / ability, and while we all like it we all know it should be on like a level 6 or level 14 ability. Maybe because I want to give all the other subclasses a chance and show people that barbarian isn't just a totem sort of thing. The thing that really pisses me off is that none of the other barbarians except the berserker gets exhaustion.
Agreed on berserker. It's so debilitating a condition, that I wouldn't even consider playing a berserker barbarian! I think the whole rage mechanic relying on taking damage or making an attack can be an issue, if the DM wants to move foes away from you. Some DMs allow you to punch yourself to take damage and maintain rage, but does any other class have to injure itself to maintain a core ability? lol
There are some great Barbarians. Personally I find the 3rd level Bear Totem to be boring. It's passive damage reduction Zzzzz...
There are some great Barbarian options. Zealot gives a nice damage boost, though the other abilities are meh... Ancestral Guardian is actually amazing. Path of the Beast is HUGELY underrated IMO.
If you like damage Zealot with the feats is literally like the best damage DPR in the game....
At will advantage with GWM+PAM+Zealot damage means you can blenderize things pretty quickly.
Having seen an Ancestral guardian barb in action I can say they are likely the best tank in the game hands down....their kit makes it very hard to kill others in the party.
Bear totem is good and top 3 overall for me...but its hardly the only one.
I really need to play one. These are all SO good! My comments in red.
Ancestral Protectors
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, spectral warriors appear when you enter your rage. While you’re raging, the first creature you hit with an attack on your turn becomes the target of the warriors, which hinder its attacks. Until the start of your next turn, that target has disadvantage on any attack roll that isn’t against you, and when the target hits a creature other than you with an attack, that creature has resistance to the damage dealt by the attack. The effect on the target ends early if your rage ends.
That big bad is attacking your Wizard... ::WACK!:: Not anymore.
Spirit Shield
Beginning at 6th level, the guardian spirits that aid you can provide supernatural protection to those you defend. If you are raging and another creature you can see within 30 feet of you takes damage, you can use your reaction to reduce that damage by 2d6.
When you reach certain levels in this class, you can reduce the damage by more: by 3d6 at 10th level and by 4d6 at 14th level.
Freaking damage reduction at will - every turn. And you only really need your reaction for opportunity attacks.
Consult the Spirits
At 10th level, you gain the ability to consult with your ancestral spirits. When you do so, you cast the augury or clairvoyance spell, without using a spell slot or material components. Rather than creating a spherical sensor, this use of clairvoyance invisibly summons one of your ancestral spirits to the chosen location. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for these spells.
After you cast either spell in this way, you can’t use this feature again until you finish a short or long rest.
This is so flavorful and useful! You're consulting spirits that are functionally making you a (very mini) divination wizard.
Vengeful Ancestors
At 14th level, your ancestral spirits grow powerful enough to retaliate. When you use your Spirit Shield to reduce the damage of an attack, the attacker takes an amount of force damage equal to the damage that your Spirit Shield prevents.
You're essentially removing 14 points of damage from your allies, and dishing out 14 back to the enemies every turn. At level 14 that's not overwhelming, but enough that it's not trivial. Would love to get a damage buff sooner, but wow do they lean into the party protector theme!
Ancestral Guardian isn't among the most powerful subclasses in the game, but I do think it's among the most well-deigned.
Yeah not really a fan of the punch myself to keep raging sort of thing. It seems like you not out of control angry. That being said, not every Barbarian plays into the angry rage monster mechanic. I know I have not in the past.
The Zealot is probably my next favorite after the ancestrial guardian. It does extra damage and reminds me of Sion a bit from League of Legends with the raging beyond death, that sounds like tons of fun to me. What makes the Path of the Beast underrated or potentially strong? I will admit, it does not look that interesting to me, neither of the Tasha Barbarian subclasses did.
As for the Ancestrial Guardian Barbarian, it is the one out of all of them that screams tank the most to me. This is one of the barbarian subclasses I have mained the tank as. It is very hard for enemies to stop the rogue or monk when ghosties are making them even harder to hit. LOL
Yeah mine was paired with a rogue and the rogue would reaction to half one attack on themselves.and the barb would reaction to reduce the other.... It was hard to get them down
Ancestral Guardians are amazing.
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That is a pretty busted little combo there 😂
It can be an issue. Though Once they are in range of a barbarian. Plenty of things have to really want to get away from the barbarian to actually escape them. Fast movement sadly doesn't kick in until 5th level (though I honestly wish it was sooner. I personally would have switched this and danger sense if I had written the class). But the Barbarian, specially after 5th level with that only 10' extra, really can create a situation of "Dedicate your turn to run away from me or face my wrath." Though this does of course mean that DM's have to play monsters and NPC's in a fashion where they would actually even think of running away in the first place. Which is valuable for tanking in it's own way if you can force things to use up entire turns just running around like chickens. Because Despite the fact that they are only gaining an additional 10'. That 40' movement range tells anything that moves 30'-40' in a round "A Single Move Action does not save you from the Barbarian" in many situations if the Barbarian is of a mind to chase them.
The Real Weakness to Barbarian's Rage when it comes to movement is really the ones that started out somewhere unreachable or too far away and function well at that kind of range to never be threatened by the Barbarian in the first place if they can manage to stay out in that kind of nebulous range beyond. Which Sometimes they can and Sometimes they can't. But this largely consists of your flying opponents, Your spell snipers and your sharp shooters. And This is one of the places that the Barbarian needs help from other party members, Either to deal with those ranged units while they deal with the melee, or to cast spells on the barbarian to enhance their movement or make them fly.
I kind of wish the Barbarian got the same sort of movement buffs as the monk but perhaps not as frequent. That way they could keep up. Also, you can throw handaxes, javelins and whatnot to stay raging, but they have limited ranges as is and it is less damage which hurts but you can do it. I still wish you could chase enemies down a bit easier though.
Being out of range is rough but it's something you got to consider before you rage.
Also I homebrew that if you use your action to dash at an enemy I let it proc rage because Sprinting at something you want to kill is pretty rage inducing to me lol
Somebody has these NFL Blitz Barbarians runnin' around. LOL
I love it!