How is the warlock highly optimized? I already pointed out it could be pushed way further. I offered someone to pick the class I used because apparently I chose the wrong level, wrong number of encounters, wrong level of basic PC planning, wrong class, and didn't use the ...what is it now ..oh the storm Harald barbarian who chose fire that can also fly to hit a flameskull and is also raging which is still a bigger a higher cost than a single short rest spell slot until lv 20 but can use lv 20 now. That's just unfair to the barbarian.
The barbarian I was using was a bear totem because the claim was the blanket resistance increased their mitigation to the point of being the best tank. The celestial chain lock was a single example that was also not fair because it's cheating by healing.
So I'd admit the barbarian isn't the worst class as long as they have the perfect subclass each encounter, have infinite rages, never deal with anything not HP related, don't compare it to anyone half decent at healing or has spell casting or if they do have them heal the barbarian(there are wizards that can heal more than this warlock), anyone with minions, also better stop looking at them past lv 11 because no really plays that far, and finally giving them flight because it's only fair.
Did I miss anything?
1st, barbarians are pretty good with damage. Two attacks with a 2d6 or 1d12 is around 14 pts of damage if both hit, which can happen frequently if they are attacking recklessly. Brutal critical starts putting the hurt on when the crits come in, dealing 5d6 or 3d12 (17.5 or 19.5) with 1 brutal critical die or a half-orc's Savage Attacks. Again, Reckless Attacks feeds into that. If you choose to forgo a stat increase to get GWM, you can use the power attack to clean up high HP lower AC enemies with a +10 damage at the cost of -5 to hit. Barbarians can handle that with reckless attacks. Additionally, a critical or a kill triggers a bonus action attack. Between the two options, you are likely to get at least one proc per fight unless you've got someone that likes to poach kills. Next, rage comes with a flat damage increase to attacks while raging that ranges from +2 to +6, but only gets to +3 at 9th level (along with brutal critical). Getting a consistent bonus action attack can add up to 6 damage per round between 5th level and 9th level. If you don't feel like using PAM or GWM for that bonus action, you can accomplish it via two weapon fighting (which is a great option for barbarians at level 1 or level 2 and then tapers off). So far, we have damage of 2d6 + 2 (rage) + strength modifier (likely a +3 or +4 between 5th and 9th) for an average damage of 12 or 13 per hit and 19 or 20 per crit. With two hits that's between 24 and 40 damage per round with no bonus action attack, power attack, or subclass bonus while raging (weighted closer to the lower end). Getting one of PAM and GWM (or both) gives more options for dealing damage and spreading the rage damage around. However, even if you don't rage, you can still be dealing around 10 pts per attack, which happens to be about the same as a warlock with Agonizing Blast. Tacking on GWM flat damage is icing on the cake.
The best part about Reckless attack is that you don't have to use it all the time. You can hold back if you need to play it more defensively. It's a great toggle for barbarians and can be used in conjunction with rage to operate as a tank without using a shield. It is also a great tool for RP if you let it be.
Barbarians aren't any more MAD than any other tanking class, they want constitution and an attack stat just like every other tanking class. Paladins are arguably more MAD since some of their tanking comes from their Auras, which serves to mitigate incoming damage as well as provide a reason to attack them despite them wearing heavy armor. While a barbarian has to acquire their first armor through some means other than starting gear, getting Scale Mail means an AC of 14 to 16 as long as your dex doesn't dip lower than 10. There is no need to go higher than a 14 dex with medium armor. Even using unarmored defense doesn't require more than a 10-14 dex as long as you are putting some points into con. If you absolutely feel you need it, shields are relatively cheap to buy and can be used at the cost of about 2 damage per hit.
Damage reduction from rage is a great tool for tanking. Those gobs of HP are effectively doubled. Barbearian gets that for all types but psychic damage but prime candidates for barbarians to tank often use the big three and any racial traits providing more is a nice bonus. You showed concern for barbarians being able to heal themselves, stating that others have to provide the healing. A) a self heal while raging could potentially cause rage to drop and maintaining the damage mitigation is usually going to be a better option. B) have you heard of healing potions? C) If the barbarian is keeping the heaviest hitter off the rest of the party and allowing them to focus down the biggest remaining threats, then overall damage will be lower since half damage is better than full damage. The barbarian also gets the bonus of dealing pretty good damage (with tools available to make it great damage) to help bring the heaviest hitter to the ground while tanking instead of choosing an either/or option. This should mean that a heal coming from another quarter, should it be needed, is of greater benefit than going to a bunch of characters. A normal life Cleric's enhanced heals can be doubly efficacious and a grave cleric can full roll heal the barbarian if the barbarian drops (not ideal). Fun interaction with Grave Cleric: Circle of Mortality just says 0 HP, not unconscious. The zealot's 14th level ability allows for that max roll without dropping rage. However, there are other sources of healing that also come into play from other sources that are highly efficacious with barbs: Chef feat treats, Inspiring Leader feat, and Aid are all highly efficient for parties in general. D) you have heard of hit dice, right? Healing with a 1d12 plus your constitution modifier per hit dice can eliminate a lot of the need for spells, at least on average.
While I've highlighted some specific interactions with subclasses and races, this is mostly just the barbarian class doing all this (reckless attacks giving the comfort level needed to take a feat or two without missing the higher damage and higher hit rate of a +2 strength boost as much).
As for the barbarian warlock multiclass, most instances where this is done isn't done for spellcasting while raging. Something like Armor of Agathys can be precast to gain 5 or 10 THP (effectively 10 or 20 with resistance) to give increased survivability while providing additional damage while taking hits. Other spells could be taken for utility, giving the barbarian more tools for out of combat interactions. If the spells don't reference your charisma, you can effectively leave your charisma at the 13 required for multiclassing warlock. A 15 str, 12 dex, 14 con, 8 int, 10 wis, and 13 cha is completely possible there. If you are ok skipping the str and con saves, you could start warlock to get better mental saves that scale with proficiency and effectively make you ok at all non int saves but not great at any.
For your cantrips, you could take BB or GFB for additional options for attacking when you aren't raging and/or select utility for the remainder. Your invocations could be GotELO and fiendish Vigor for some additional sustain out of combat. Remember those d12 hit dice? GotELO works on those. Celestial Warlock can add more options with the bonus cantrips, the ability to select Cure Wounds, the pool of d6s from healing light which doesn't appear to be casting a spell or requiring concentration and does use a bonus action that barbarians don't always have an innate use for. GotELO changes those from a 3.5 average d6 into a straight 6 and you'll have 4 of those per long rest as a warlock 3/barb X. Of course, GotELO works on anyone else's spells, making them feel like Grave Cleric's bringing you back to your feet from 0 HP, without that prerequisite (so closer to Life Cleric 17th level). Fiendish Vigor can make up for the lost hp on the multiclass (4 if start Warlock, 2 average for every level taken after first character level for a potential of 8 which is conveniently the most available from False Life).
If you aren't wanting to maximize the healing, you can take one of the two invocations and go utility with the other. You can also go with a different pact to gain other benefits if GotELO and the familiar aren't interesting enough for you.
I'll give you that barbarians aren't as strategically diverse as other classes, but there is more nuance to their playstyle than you'd first suspect. It's not always rage flipping tables and attacking recklessly and RP can overcome some of the class' lack of social arena abilities.
I currently have a fighter/barbarian, so not a pure barbarian. But I think both classes suffer from some of the same issues, first and foremost imo, is their saving throws tend to be lacking. Now, I did min/max, so part of that is my fault, no doubt. But you want to have an effective character. Int and Cha are not required for my character. So, those saves will accordingly suffer. But when compared with a number of other classes, their saves are quite poor.
Another issue I have found is my fighter/barbarian suffers in heavy movement fights. I want to melee and don't really attack well from range, but if my target can teleport or fly, by some means, that's a terrible fight for me. The ranged dpr, spellcaster or archer can frequently just slightly reposition and carry on with their spells or attacks. I have to physically run to the target to start my attacks again. Lots of movement in a fight is bad for a barbarian. I do best with opponents who want a slugfest. Heaven forbid it be a mostly aerial fight! My ranged dps is very weak! Pretty much all tank type fighters, paladins and barbarians will have this issue. Sometimes alleviated by a good magic item or multi-classing.
Overall, I like my fighter/barbarian, but do feel he is underpowered or sub optimal in certain fights. But if it's an opponent who wants a knockdown drag out, just like me? That's where my character can shine! I don't have the massive burst paladin of our sorcerer/paladin/warlock. The rogue can do huge hits, at times, also. But with multiple attacks (I have PAM also) and advantage, my fighter/barbarian provides consistent damage. I probably do more damage, over the span of an entire night, than anybody else. It's just spread out over the entire night, instead of bunching it on a few rounds...and I don't run out of spell slots to smite! :)
How is the warlock highly optimized? I already pointed out it could be pushed way further. I offered someone to pick the class I used because apparently I chose the wrong level, wrong number of encounters, wrong level of basic PC planning, wrong class, and didn't use the ...what is it now ..oh the storm Harald barbarian who chose fire that can also fly to hit a flameskull and is also raging which is still a bigger a higher cost than a single short rest spell slot until lv 20 but can use lv 20 now. That's just unfair to the barbarian.
The barbarian I was using was a bear totem because the claim was the blanket resistance increased their mitigation to the point of being the best tank. The celestial chain lock was a single example that was also not fair because it's cheating by healing.
So I'd admit the barbarian isn't the worst class as long as they have the perfect subclass each encounter, have infinite rages, never deal with anything not HP related, don't compare it to anyone half decent at healing or has spell casting or if they do have them heal the barbarian(there are wizards that can heal more than this warlock), anyone with minions, also better stop looking at them past lv 11 because no really plays that far, and finally giving them flight because it's only fair.
Did I miss anything?
1st, barbarians are pretty good with damage. Two attacks with a 2d6 or 1d12 is around 14 pts of damage if both hit, which can happen frequently if they are attacking recklessly. Brutal critical starts putting the hurt on when the crits come in, dealing 5d6 or 3d12 (17.5 or 19.5) with 1 brutal critical die or a half-orc's Savage Attacks. Again, Reckless Attacks feeds into that. If you choose to forgo a stat increase to get GWM, you can use the power attack to clean up high HP lower AC enemies with a +10 damage at the cost of -5 to hit. Barbarians can handle that with reckless attacks. Additionally, a critical or a kill triggers a bonus action attack. Between the two options, you are likely to get at least one proc per fight unless you've got someone that likes to poach kills. Next, rage comes with a flat damage increase to attacks while raging that ranges from +2 to +6, but only gets to +3 at 9th level (along with brutal critical). Getting a consistent bonus action attack can add up to 6 damage per round between 5th level and 9th level. If you don't feel like using PAM or GWM for that bonus action, you can accomplish it via two weapon fighting (which is a great option for barbarians at level 1 or level 2 and then tapers off). So far, we have damage of 2d6 + 2 (rage) + strength modifier (likely a +3 or +4 between 5th and 9th) for an average damage of 12 or 13 per hit and 19 or 20 per crit. With two hits that's between 24 and 40 damage per round with no bonus action attack, power attack, or subclass bonus while raging (weighted closer to the lower end). Getting one of PAM and GWM (or both) gives more options for dealing damage and spreading the rage damage around. However, even if you don't rage, you can still be dealing around 10 pts per attack, which happens to be about the same as a warlock with Agonizing Blast. Tacking on GWM flat damage is icing on the cake.
The best part about Reckless attack is that you don't have to use it all the time. You can hold back if you need to play it more defensively. It's a great toggle for barbarians and can be used in conjunction with rage to operate as a tank without using a shield. It is also a great tool for RP if you let it be.
Barbarians aren't any more MAD than any other tanking class, they want constitution and an attack stat just like every other tanking class. Paladins are arguably more MAD since some of their tanking comes from their Auras, which serves to mitigate incoming damage as well as provide a reason to attack them despite them wearing heavy armor. While a barbarian has to acquire their first armor through some means other than starting gear, getting Scale Mail means an AC of 14 to 16 as long as your dex doesn't dip lower than 10. There is no need to go higher than a 14 dex with medium armor. Even using unarmored defense doesn't require more than a 10-14 dex as long as you are putting some points into con. If you absolutely feel you need it, shields are relatively cheap to buy and can be used at the cost of about 2 damage per hit.
Damage reduction from rage is a great tool for tanking. Those gobs of HP are effectively doubled. Barbearian gets that for all types but psychic damage but prime candidates for barbarians to tank often use the big three and any racial traits providing more is a nice bonus. You showed concern for barbarians being able to heal themselves, stating that others have to provide the healing. A) a self heal while raging could potentially cause rage to drop and maintaining the damage mitigation is usually going to be a better option. B) have you heard of healing potions? C) If the barbarian is keeping the heaviest hitter off the rest of the party and allowing them to focus down the biggest remaining threats, then overall damage will be lower since half damage is better than full damage. The barbarian also gets the bonus of dealing pretty good damage (with tools available to make it great damage) to help bring the heaviest hitter to the ground while tanking instead of choosing an either/or option. This should mean that a heal coming from another quarter, should it be needed, is of greater benefit than going to a bunch of characters. A normal life Cleric's enhanced heals can be doubly efficacious and a grave cleric can full roll heal the barbarian if the barbarian drops (not ideal). Fun interaction with Grave Cleric: Circle of Mortality just says 0 HP, not unconscious. The zealot's 14th level ability allows for that max roll without dropping rage. However, there are other sources of healing that also come into play from other sources that are highly efficacious with barbs: Chef feat treats, Inspiring Leader feat, and Aid are all highly efficient for parties in general. D) you have heard of hit dice, right? Healing with a 1d12 plus your constitution modifier per hit dice can eliminate a lot of the need for spells, at least on average.
While I've highlighted some specific interactions with subclasses and races, this is mostly just the barbarian class doing all this (reckless attacks giving the comfort level needed to take a feat or two without missing the higher damage and higher hit rate of a +2 strength boost as much).
As for the barbarian warlock multiclass, most instances where this is done isn't done for spellcasting while raging. Something like Armor of Agathys can be precast to gain 5 or 10 THP (effectively 10 or 20 with resistance) to give increased survivability while providing additional damage while taking hits. Other spells could be taken for utility, giving the barbarian more tools for out of combat interactions. If the spells don't reference your charisma, you can effectively leave your charisma at the 13 required for multiclassing warlock. A 15 str, 12 dex, 14 con, 8 int, 10 wis, and 13 cha is completely possible there. If you are ok skipping the str and con saves, you could start warlock to get better mental saves that scale with proficiency and effectively make you ok at all non int saves but not great at any.
For your cantrips, you could take BB or GFB for additional options for attacking when you aren't raging and/or select utility for the remainder. Your invocations could be GotELO and fiendish Vigor for some additional sustain out of combat. Remember those d12 hit dice? GotELO works on those. Celestial Warlock can add more options with the bonus cantrips, the ability to select Cure Wounds, the pool of d6s from healing light which doesn't appear to be casting a spell or requiring concentration and does use a bonus action that barbarians don't always have an innate use for. GotELO changes those from a 3.5 average d6 into a straight 6 and you'll have 4 of those per long rest as a warlock 3/barb X. Of course, GotELO works on anyone else's spells, making them feel like Grave Cleric's bringing you back to your feet from 0 HP, without that prerequisite (so closer to Life Cleric 17th level). Fiendish Vigor can make up for the lost hp on the multiclass (4 if start Warlock, 2 average for every level taken after first character level for a potential of 8 which is conveniently the most available from False Life).
If you aren't wanting to maximize the healing, you can take one of the two invocations and go utility with the other. You can also go with a different pact to gain other benefits if GotELO and the familiar aren't interesting enough for you.
I'll give you that barbarians aren't as strategically diverse as other classes, but there is more nuance to their playstyle than you'd first suspect. It's not always rage flipping tables and attacking recklessly and RP can overcome some of the class' lack of social arena abilities.
Barbarian definitely multiclass pretty well. I was actually going to use the celestial pact dip to show how much of a near miss the barbarian is because they had all the right ideas in the system but just disbursed them slightly off but my post got a little wordy. Maximize healing on a class that has a deep HP pool and ways to stretch out that pool suddenly it clicks. The bonus utility and spell casting doesn't hurt. The rather lack luster progress past the mid point of the class helps this along as well.
The point I usually come to with the barbarian is that is the class you could buff the most without upsetting the balance of the system.
My main issue with barbarian is way too much relies on rage for my taste...
If you run out you basically have reckless attack feature and that's about it most of the time. I feel confident saying most games this will not be an issue as I think most games do not follow the 3-4 encounters per short rest (2 short rest per day) format but if you do even if you efficiently use rage if you run out you are worse off than basically any other martial class.
The rather lack luster progress past the mid point of the class helps this along as well.
What is actually lacklustre about their progress past the mid point?
Every level further increases your advantage in hitpoints over other classes, and you get more uses of Rage. Not only that, you get Relentless Rage (Rage can prevent an already hard to down class from being downed), and later Persistent Rage which makes it a lot more difficult to interrupt your Rage so you rarely have to reenter Rage during a fight. This is the primary scaling of Barbarian, and why pure Barbarian still outshines a class with a Barbarian dip, as being limited to only two more easily interruptible Rages might be fine at lower levels, but at later levels the 5-6 Persistent Rages should comfortably see you through each adventuring day. This is why unlimited Rage isn't as huge as it can first appear as you shouldn't really need it for combat, it's better for players that like to burn Rage to brute force Strength checks out of combat.
Brutal Criticals are okay when you factor in Reckless Attack, since that makes you more likely to get the critical in the first place (10% rather than 5% chance), it's a bit "meh" when it's only the one dice but the two and three are a bit more impressive for a class that doesn't really need to deal all that much damage (though extra is rarely a bad thing).
The only really duff feature of the higher level base Barbarian class is Indomitable Might which is just straight up not good at all; in my groups we play it as Reliable Talent for Strength checks (i.e- can't roll less than 10 for Strength checks) and even with that change it's only okay for an 18th level feature.
But it's a mistake to think that just because a Barbarian gets a lot from its first two or three levels that that means its later levels aren't any good; a lot of classes are the same, which is why multi-classing can be so good, especially as many classes don't have captstone features that are as good as a Barbarian's +4 Strength and Constitution (on top of unlimited Rage).
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The rather lack luster progress past the mid point of the class helps this along as well.
What is actually lacklustre about their progress past the mid point?
Every level further increases your advantage in hitpoints over other classes, and you get more uses of Rage. Not only that, you get Relentless Rage (Rage can prevent an already hard to down class from being downed), and later Persistent Rage which makes it a lot more difficult to interrupt your Rage so you rarely have to reenter Rage during a fight. This is the primary scaling of Barbarian, and why pure Barbarian still outshines a class with a Barbarian dip, as being limited to only two more easily interruptible Rages might be fine at lower levels, but at later levels the 5-6 Persistent Rages should comfortably see you through each adventuring day. This is why unlimited Rage isn't as huge as it can first appear as you shouldn't really need it for combat, it's better for players that like to burn Rage to brute force Strength checks out of combat.
Brutal Criticals are okay when you factor in Reckless Attack, since that makes you more likely to get the critical in the first place (10% rather than 5% chance), it's a bit "meh" when it's only the one dice but the two and three are a bit more impressive for a class that doesn't really need to deal all that much damage (though extra is rarely a bad thing).
The only really duff feature of the higher level base Barbarian class is Indomitable Might which is just straight up not good at all; in my groups we play it as Reliable Talent for Strength checks (i.e- can't roll less than 10 for Strength checks) and even with that change it's only okay for an 18th level feature.
But it's a mistake to think that just because a Barbarian gets a lot from its first two or three levels that that means its later levels aren't any good; a lot of classes are the same, which is why multi-classing can be so good, especially as many classes don't have captstone features that are as good as a Barbarian's +4 Strength and Constitution (on top of unlimited Rage).
Yeah if you are for sure going to 20 I would not MC out of barb myself...that capstone is just amazing with infa rage and 24 STR and CON.
If its like 90% of games and will end by 12th level or sooner I will MC into fighter at level 6 (Barb 5/ Fighter 3/ Rogue x?) is my go too....I like getting expertise in ATH if I can at some point and cunning action is great for a barb.
Brutal critical adds less damage overall than a few of the fighting styles. So the GWF style and a g sword adds more damage than brutal critical(2) with the big bad d12 axe assuming both have the same advantage on attacks.
And how exactly are you getting Great Weapon Fighting on your hypothetical character? By going a class that has none of the Barbarian abilities or by taking a feat you don't need to?
Even assuming you've done one of these, assuming 50% base chance to hit, GWF with a greatsword (average ~8.32 damage per hit) using Reckless Attack (75% chance to hit, 10% chance to crit) with no Brutal Criticals you've got 141.44 damage (17x8.32).
With 50% chance to hit, greataxe (average 6.5 damage per hit) using Reckless Attack and with Brutal Criticals (1) you have 123.5 damage (19x6.5). Less? Sure, but hardly uncompetitive. Increase to Brutal Criticals (2) and you've got 136.5 damage (21x6.5) which is a less than 1% difference for no added cost.
That's assuming a straight swap of the Brutal Criticals feature for Great Weapon Fighting instead. For a non-Barbarian with no Reckless Attack and the same number of attacks (so a 50% chance to hit and 5% chance of a critical) you're looking at 91.52 (11x8.32).
Meanwhile if you are going to make the investment to add GWF to a Barbarian, then you get both the re-rolls for 1's and 2's and Brutal Criticals (1), for 149.76 (18x8.32), or with Brutal Criticals (2) it's 158.08 (19x8.32). Nearly 12% more damage. Do the same thing (Brutal Criticals (2) and GWF) with the greataxe (now 7.33 per hit) and you're still on 153.93 (21x7.33), which is still around 9% added damage.
All of these are assuming average damage for 20 attacks.
Of course the specifics change with ability scores, added Rage damage, chance to hit etc. but I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible. Added damage is added damage, and it means the Barbarian's damage output, along with the increase to Rage damage actually scales more than you seem to want to admit. So it's a class that can tank extremely well (best class in the game, still haven't proven otherwise) but it also puts solid damage throughout.
The HP difference isn't large enough to lean on. It's only 1 hp more per lv than a d10 and damage scales faster than hp pools.
Over 20 levels it's a 20 HP difference, ignoring the fact you could have a full +7 CON at level 20 (a full +2 better than any other martial class), it is also effectively doubled by Rage to 40 more hit points for tanking with. No feat required.
Relentless should have been a base rage feature. It is an unnecessary limitation on a very limited resource.
And make the first few levels of Barbarian even stronger for a lazy multi-class dip? You complain about the class not gaining more at later levels yet want to front-load the class even more?! It's already the best class for dipping into to add durability, and the scaling is fine; now you're just being greedy.
Rage count scales painfully slow.
Not really; when's the last time you had more than four encounters in a single adventuring day? If you can remember the last time, how many of those encounters actually required you to use Rage at all?
The capstone is good but not great. Right in the middle of the field with some above and some below. The capstone would have to one of the best to make up the ~8 dead levels. Unlimited rages is the real capstone. Once you can start using rages to address non combat challenges you have some added flexibility.
It is one of the best capstones because unlimited Rages is not unrelated to it; you get both unlimited Rage and the highest Strength and Constitution of any class, which not only should give you a full 40 extra hit points, but also one of the best chances to hit of any class (especially when combined with Reckless Attack).
You seem intent upon belittling the class by looking at little parts of it in total isolation while utterly refusing to look at it is a class as a whole; I'm sorry, but you made your ridiculous claim to it being the worst tank literally pages ago, and have utterly failed to make your case ever since. It's a class that can take a lot of punishment with barely any effort, or a huge amount with some strategy, while putting out solid damage, and with a whole bunch of extra ability to boot that other classes do not get. But no, somehow it's magically the worst class for tanking but we just have to trust your word for it?
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A Zealot Barb with the right set up can just fight indefinitely at level 20....talk about a good tank let's talk about the guy who can't be put down at all despite being at 0 hp for the last 10 rounds?
The point was a lv 1-2 feature that half the classes get with fighting styles is as good if not better than 2 different levels of features on the barbarian that are both well past lv 1. For a SnB barbarian trading all 3 levels of brutal critical for duelist is just an flat upgrade.
The capstone gets held in high regard but it's really right in the middle. druids, artificer, half the pallys, cleric, and wizards are better and the rest fall equal or below the barbarian. So maybe slightly above average. Sure you Could have have +7 str and Con but compared to +6 to all saves and an extra attunement slot it doesn't really have much teeth. This is lv 20 so to have some get changing stuff being thrown around so eatting 1-2 extra attacks and +2 attack/damage isn't much to be excited about. Sure the zealot in practically immortal but so wizards, druids, and a few other classes. At this point in the game HP attrition is nothing more than a side show to the threats parties face. In order to make combat that kind of deadly at lv 20 the extra HP from +2 con isn't going to matter a whole lot.
As for encounter count per day my tables average 5-8 per adventuring day shortest day was 0 and longest was 23 but I was basing my assumption on the low end of the DMG at 6. I keep pretty extensive records of my campaigns that's why I started to recognize the issue with barbarians. Long days are killer on them, which is ironic on a class that's built around the idea of being super tough and hearty, and short days don't favor them because they don't have much in the way of nova or increasing damage past the normal RA/PaM/GWM combo. So they really need days that have with a encounter:rage ratio that is equal. A barbarian not raging is basically a barbarian with no subclass because just about everything is tied to it.
I could see the barbarian fairing better in the games where 4 encounters is a long day but can we really say a class is good overall if they only function if played below the already low difficulty the DMG suggests?
How is the warlock highly optimized? I already pointed out it could be pushed way further. I offered someone to pick the class I used because apparently I chose the wrong level, wrong number of encounters, wrong level of basic PC planning, wrong class, and didn't use the ...what is it now ..oh the storm Harald barbarian who chose fire that can also fly to hit a flameskull and is also raging which is still a bigger a higher cost than a single short rest spell slot until lv 20 but can use lv 20 now. That's just unfair to the barbarian.
The barbarian I was using was a bear totem because the claim was the blanket resistance increased their mitigation to the point of being the best tank. The celestial chain lock was a single example that was also not fair because it's cheating by healing.
So I'd admit the barbarian isn't the worst class as long as they have the perfect subclass each encounter, have infinite rages, never deal with anything not HP related, don't compare it to anyone half decent at healing or has spell casting or if they do have them heal the barbarian(there are wizards that can heal more than this warlock), anyone with minions, also better stop looking at them past lv 11 because no really plays that far, and finally giving them flight because it's only fair.
Did I miss anything?
1st, barbarians are pretty good with damage. Two attacks with a 2d6 or 1d12 is around 14 pts of damage if both hit, which can happen frequently if they are attacking recklessly. Brutal critical starts putting the hurt on when the crits come in, dealing 5d6 or 3d12 (17.5 or 19.5) with 1 brutal critical die or a half-orc's Savage Attacks. Again, Reckless Attacks feeds into that. If you choose to forgo a stat increase to get GWM, you can use the power attack to clean up high HP lower AC enemies with a +10 damage at the cost of -5 to hit. Barbarians can handle that with reckless attacks. Additionally, a critical or a kill triggers a bonus action attack. Between the two options, you are likely to get at least one proc per fight unless you've got someone that likes to poach kills. Next, rage comes with a flat damage increase to attacks while raging that ranges from +2 to +6, but only gets to +3 at 9th level (along with brutal critical). Getting a consistent bonus action attack can add up to 6 damage per round between 5th level and 9th level. If you don't feel like using PAM or GWM for that bonus action, you can accomplish it via two weapon fighting (which is a great option for barbarians at level 1 or level 2 and then tapers off). So far, we have damage of 2d6 + 2 (rage) + strength modifier (likely a +3 or +4 between 5th and 9th) for an average damage of 12 or 13 per hit and 19 or 20 per crit. With two hits that's between 24 and 40 damage per round with no bonus action attack, power attack, or subclass bonus while raging (weighted closer to the lower end). Getting one of PAM and GWM (or both) gives more options for dealing damage and spreading the rage damage around. However, even if you don't rage, you can still be dealing around 10 pts per attack, which happens to be about the same as a warlock with Agonizing Blast. Tacking on GWM flat damage is icing on the cake.
The best part about Reckless attack is that you don't have to use it all the time. You can hold back if you need to play it more defensively. It's a great toggle for barbarians and can be used in conjunction with rage to operate as a tank without using a shield. It is also a great tool for RP if you let it be.
Barbarians aren't any more MAD than any other tanking class, they want constitution and an attack stat just like every other tanking class. Paladins are arguably more MAD since some of their tanking comes from their Auras, which serves to mitigate incoming damage as well as provide a reason to attack them despite them wearing heavy armor. While a barbarian has to acquire their first armor through some means other than starting gear, getting Scale Mail means an AC of 14 to 16 as long as your dex doesn't dip lower than 10. There is no need to go higher than a 14 dex with medium armor. Even using unarmored defense doesn't require more than a 10-14 dex as long as you are putting some points into con. If you absolutely feel you need it, shields are relatively cheap to buy and can be used at the cost of about 2 damage per hit.
Damage reduction from rage is a great tool for tanking. Those gobs of HP are effectively doubled. Barbearian gets that for all types but psychic damage but prime candidates for barbarians to tank often use the big three and any racial traits providing more is a nice bonus. You showed concern for barbarians being able to heal themselves, stating that others have to provide the healing. A) a self heal while raging could potentially cause rage to drop and maintaining the damage mitigation is usually going to be a better option. B) have you heard of healing potions? C) If the barbarian is keeping the heaviest hitter off the rest of the party and allowing them to focus down the biggest remaining threats, then overall damage will be lower since half damage is better than full damage. The barbarian also gets the bonus of dealing pretty good damage (with tools available to make it great damage) to help bring the heaviest hitter to the ground while tanking instead of choosing an either/or option. This should mean that a heal coming from another quarter, should it be needed, is of greater benefit than going to a bunch of characters. A normal life Cleric's enhanced heals can be doubly efficacious and a grave cleric can full roll heal the barbarian if the barbarian drops (not ideal). Fun interaction with Grave Cleric: Circle of Mortality just says 0 HP, not unconscious. The zealot's 14th level ability allows for that max roll without dropping rage. However, there are other sources of healing that also come into play from other sources that are highly efficacious with barbs: Chef feat treats, Inspiring Leader feat, and Aid are all highly efficient for parties in general. D) you have heard of hit dice, right? Healing with a 1d12 plus your constitution modifier per hit dice can eliminate a lot of the need for spells, at least on average.
While I've highlighted some specific interactions with subclasses and races, this is mostly just the barbarian class doing all this (reckless attacks giving the comfort level needed to take a feat or two without missing the higher damage and higher hit rate of a +2 strength boost as much).
As for the barbarian warlock multiclass, most instances where this is done isn't done for spellcasting while raging. Something like Armor of Agathys can be precast to gain 5 or 10 THP (effectively 10 or 20 with resistance) to give increased survivability while providing additional damage while taking hits. Other spells could be taken for utility, giving the barbarian more tools for out of combat interactions. If the spells don't reference your charisma, you can effectively leave your charisma at the 13 required for multiclassing warlock. A 15 str, 12 dex, 14 con, 8 int, 10 wis, and 13 cha is completely possible there. If you are ok skipping the str and con saves, you could start warlock to get better mental saves that scale with proficiency and effectively make you ok at all non int saves but not great at any.
For your cantrips, you could take BB or GFB for additional options for attacking when you aren't raging and/or select utility for the remainder. Your invocations could be GotELO and fiendish Vigor for some additional sustain out of combat. Remember those d12 hit dice? GotELO works on those. Celestial Warlock can add more options with the bonus cantrips, the ability to select Cure Wounds, the pool of d6s from healing light which doesn't appear to be casting a spell or requiring concentration and does use a bonus action that barbarians don't always have an innate use for. GotELO changes those from a 3.5 average d6 into a straight 6 and you'll have 4 of those per long rest as a warlock 3/barb X. Of course, GotELO works on anyone else's spells, making them feel like Grave Cleric's bringing you back to your feet from 0 HP, without that prerequisite (so closer to Life Cleric 17th level). Fiendish Vigor can make up for the lost hp on the multiclass (4 if start Warlock, 2 average for every level taken after first character level for a potential of 8 which is conveniently the most available from False Life).
If you aren't wanting to maximize the healing, you can take one of the two invocations and go utility with the other. You can also go with a different pact to gain other benefits if GotELO and the familiar aren't interesting enough for you.
I'll give you that barbarians aren't as strategically diverse as other classes, but there is more nuance to their playstyle than you'd first suspect. It's not always rage flipping tables and attacking recklessly and RP can overcome some of the class' lack of social arena abilities.
Barbarian definitely multiclass pretty well. I was actually going to use the celestial pact dip to show how much of a near miss the barbarian is because they had all the right ideas in the system but just disbursed them slightly off but my post got a little wordy. Maximize healing on a class that has a deep HP pool and ways to stretch out that pool suddenly it clicks. The bonus utility and spell casting doesn't hurt. The rather lack luster progress past the mid point of the class helps this along as well.
The point I usually come to with the barbarian is that is the class you could buff the most without upsetting the balance of the system.
My main issue with barbarian is way too much relies on rage for my taste...
If you run out you basically have reckless attack feature and that's about it most of the time. I feel confident saying most games this will not be an issue as I think most games do not follow the 3-4 encounters per short rest (2 short rest per day) format but if you do even if you efficiently use rage if you run out you are worse off than basically any other martial class.
....yes we can because as I alluded to I think the vast majority of players are not doing the 6-8 encounters.
I think the class benefits from the low encounter count of most tables. Much like the short rest classes often suffer.
The point was a lv 1-2 feature that half the classes get with fighting styles is as good if not better than 2 different levels of features on the barbarian that are both well past lv 1. For a SnB barbarian trading all 3 levels of brutal critical for duelist is just an flat upgrade.
Except it's not, as I've shown, as the difference in damage isn't really that large, for a class which doesn't need to deal large amounts of damage to be doing what it's for. You keep focusing excessively on raw damage output but your claim is that Barbarian is the worst tank, you don't need to deal a lot of damage to tank, being able to do so is nice but not necessary. Barbarians do more than enough damage to be competitive at all levels.
Sure you Could have have +7 str and Con but compared to +6 to all saves and an extra attunement slot it doesn't really have much teeth.
It does if you want to play a tank, you know, on the class that is supposedly the worst tank in the game according… well, who was it that said that again? 🤔
You apparently hate tanks being capable of tanking, and hate damage, yet also hate a captstone that makes an already good class better at both? See what I mean about utterly failing to make your case? You can't even keep your own arguments straight!
I was basing my assumption on the low end of the DMG at 6.
At six encounters you can Rage during two thirds of them with four uses, five sixths with five or all of them with six, that means in the worst case you only have to conserve Rage for two of them. This isn't much different than most other long rest bound resource classes; even at level 20 a Wizard doesn't have enough slots of 6+ to cover all six encounters, meaning they're limit to 5th level for at least two, even factoring in meat and potatoes slots they max at 3 5th levels, so the reality is they're probably going to want to limit themselves to 1st to 4th for one or two encounters, to save the big stuff for when they really need it. Or even stick to cantrips, because while they can get 22 slots total, which sounds like a lot, they can also burn through those quickly, that's just conservation of resources like any long rest class.
Barbarians get a lot out of Rage when they use it; multiple effects that it would take most casters multiple spells to emulate in fact, and it's usually not that hard to know when an encounter is likely to need Rage or not, that's just the skill of playing as a Barbarian, and it's part of the party dynamic as a whole; just as it's better to conserve the healer's healing, sometimes don't want the tank to tank, if it means they can do it later. But from level 20 onwards? They absolutely can, and I'd say combined with the STR and CON boost it's absolutely the equal of the Artificer's; as while you can build an Artificer to tank they'll be a very differnt style of tank, need those attunement slots to either fill in the gaps, or specialise in some other way entirely.
And a Barbarian without Rage isn't actually helpless; they're still tougher than most, and they have a whole load of abilities that aren't keyed to Rage such as Danger Sense, Reckless Attack, Unarmored Defence etc. You don't want to run out of Rage uses, but it's not exactly the end of the world either, unlike a full caster who runs out of spell slots.
But this is just getting boring now; you've clearly made up your mind from the outset, but you won't listen to arguments to the contrary, you're just making twisted little non-arguments to try and "prove" your already held belief, but again you keep failing to do-so. It's not healthy, and I'm tired of it, so I'll be unsubscribing from this topic. Everything that should ever need to be said has already been said, you didn't listen, goodbye.
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There's really no point in highlighting the issue of the fact the barbarian damage isn't that great is there? If I use something that's adequately on the same level like a fighter I'll probably get accused of optimizing and even if someone will admit that they don't have good damage suddenly their tank again and the whole cycle starts over. They tank. how. they do enough damage to draw attention. okay they're damage not great. that's okay they're a tank.
Zealot barbs have one of the best DPR in the game with the proper feats: Polearm Master + Greatweapon master.....as they have at will advantage on attacks
They are like just behind the cheesy Hexblade/Darkness/Devilsight combo.
This is not about being rude, I am genuinely trying to understand the class:
I have never really liked the Barbarian class, either as a player or a DM, in any version of D&D or Pathfinder. I don't see what they add to a party other than 'Rage - SMASH'. I played one for the first time in 5E last night and was trying to figure out what the hell I could do out of combat. Even in combat you are completely relient on other party members to heal you and buff you. It can be fun running in with a big weapon and killing enemies with a single hit - I was doing 1d12+6 damage with rage which was fairly awesome at first level, but that was it. Nothing else, no real options, no spells, no tactics just Hulk smashing everything. I really played up his lack of intelligence and social sophistication which was fun, and judging by the party laughter it went down okay, but I can't see the amusement holding out long term, so why would you play them past a few levels?
The subclasses are pretty much universally terrible as well, the only exception being Totem warrior. The two that looks the most interesting - Zealot and Wild soul are mechanically terrible.
I just don't get it, what's the point of the class beyond "I hit it with my axe" rinse and repeat?
So, two things to address. The lack of fun (for you) and mechanical effectiveness. The first one is subjective. On effectiveness, having a front liner (usually a fighter or barbarian) is critical to the party. Unless your Wizard would like the big monster to get in his face. Having a meat shield with unlimited single target damage output is critical.
The the barbarian is perfect for that role. With reckless attack (giving advantage at will) their damage output is (typically) superior than the fighter, and they're resilient AF. The Zealot adds yet more damage. Ancestral Guardian forces the first target you hit to attack only you, or suffer disadvantage. At level 6 you can reduce damage to your alies as a reaction. I can go on, but if you don't see the value in a front line warrior, I'm not sure what to say. Barbarians are excellent front liners.
There's really no point in highlighting the issue of the fact the barbarian damage isn't that great is there? If I use something that's adequately on the same level like a fighter I'll probably get accused of optimizing and even if someone will admit that they don't have good damage suddenly their tank again and the whole cycle starts over. They tank. how. they do enough damage to draw attention. okay they're damage not great. that's okay they're a tank.
Well. considering the way numbers play out. they aren't in fact bad at damage. And it's far more sustainable than most things that can temporarily do more.
I don't have to refute it by going "Well they are a tank." Fighters aren't low in damage either. What your using as your justifications, or rather non-justifications here are purely subjective.
And if you want to use the argument "Well all Magic Users do so much more damage." Yes... They Do. In optimal conditions they often don't have in actual play which tends to balance everything out more than the theoretical math usually shows. AoE spells are almost always talked about in terms of hitting at least 4+ targets where their damage starts looking really impressive. But the damage isn't necessarily that impressive on 3 or less compared to 2 to 3 individual hits from Martial characters with a DPS focused build usually. And Single Target Spells tend to do some nice damage at high level. But multiple attacks on a single target from plenty of martial builds manage similar numbers If you actually consider it in full Damage per round and not damage per attack. But 2 or even 3 20-30 point hits never sound as impressive to most players as one hit that does 40-60 damage. Even if those 20-30 point hits actually end up adding up to the higher of that range and the single hit is middling or lower on it. Monks actually suffer from this a lot at low level. They actually do as much or more damage as most of their counter parts swinging things like Two Handed weapons at the first tier of play just from their martial art die. But that individual die looks so much smaller and that individual hit is nowhere near as impressive. So we need to make that die as big as possible to make it at all feel comparable. Despite the fact that the monks damage from those couple of hits versus that one were often overall better. Another Example of the same phenomenon is how often people look at bigger damage numbers that are only capable of spikes and usually can't be sustained more than one or two rounds vs. something else that does slightly lower but for much longer periods. Which is often a measurement used by the general consensus to say one thing is good and another is bad despite overall they work out to closely the same under most conditions.
What an interesting conversation about the best class in DnD.
So we are operating under the assumption that barbarians are the only tank in the party. I always likened the 5e Barbarians to Roadhog or Zarya from Overwatch. Not a great main tanks but stellar off-tanks that have some cool abilities to hang around and vomit out damage in a burst. To the OP, that is their point. Put a barbarian and paladin close together and watch to your players' horror as both of them are up 10 rounds later. Or worse yet, two different subclasses of barbarian. They make excellent secondary tanks because of the hybrid damage mitigation and and damage output they have.
As a main tank I am not sure the barbarian does the best job, at least not in 5e. I miss the days of Str and Con and movement buffs while raging. This would help with their overall ability to sustain as well. Outside of busted things like Bear totem and Ancestral Guardian a lot of them struggle quite a bit to tank a mob's damage. They do more damage than mitigate or soak up damage in my opinion.
What an interesting conversation about the best class in DnD.
So we are operating under the assumption that barbarians are the only tank in the party. I always likened the 5e Barbarians to Roadhog or Zarya from Overwatch. Not a great main tanks but stellar off-tanks that have some cool abilities to hang around and vomit out damage in a burst. To the OP, that is their point. Put a barbarian and paladin close together and watch to your players' horror as both of them are up 10 rounds later. Or worse yet, two different subclasses of barbarian. They make excellent secondary tanks because of the hybrid damage mitigation and and damage output they have.
As a main tank I am not sure the barbarian does the best job, at least not in 5e. I miss the days of Str and Con and movement buffs while raging. This would help with their overall ability to sustain as well. Outside of busted things like Bear totem and Ancestral Guardian a lot of them struggle quite a bit to tank a mob's damage. They do more damage than mitigate or soak up damage in my opinion.
I'm curious why you don't think Barbarians make the best main tank. They don't get heavy armor, but that's more than offset by halving most damage and the highest hit dice.
I've only ever had one player who could out tank my barbarian. It was a very specific warforged paladin/sorcerer build with the defense fighting style, full plate, a shield, and the shield spell. I think he had 22 AC at tier 1 with no magic items, AND he would cast shield when enemies got lucky. That was ridiculous lol. But yeah, on more normal common builds I think the barbarians edge out most fighters and paladins in being able to take punishment.
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1st, barbarians are pretty good with damage. Two attacks with a 2d6 or 1d12 is around 14 pts of damage if both hit, which can happen frequently if they are attacking recklessly. Brutal critical starts putting the hurt on when the crits come in, dealing 5d6 or 3d12 (17.5 or 19.5) with 1 brutal critical die or a half-orc's Savage Attacks. Again, Reckless Attacks feeds into that. If you choose to forgo a stat increase to get GWM, you can use the power attack to clean up high HP lower AC enemies with a +10 damage at the cost of -5 to hit. Barbarians can handle that with reckless attacks. Additionally, a critical or a kill triggers a bonus action attack. Between the two options, you are likely to get at least one proc per fight unless you've got someone that likes to poach kills. Next, rage comes with a flat damage increase to attacks while raging that ranges from +2 to +6, but only gets to +3 at 9th level (along with brutal critical). Getting a consistent bonus action attack can add up to 6 damage per round between 5th level and 9th level. If you don't feel like using PAM or GWM for that bonus action, you can accomplish it via two weapon fighting (which is a great option for barbarians at level 1 or level 2 and then tapers off). So far, we have damage of 2d6 + 2 (rage) + strength modifier (likely a +3 or +4 between 5th and 9th) for an average damage of 12 or 13 per hit and 19 or 20 per crit. With two hits that's between 24 and 40 damage per round with no bonus action attack, power attack, or subclass bonus while raging (weighted closer to the lower end). Getting one of PAM and GWM (or both) gives more options for dealing damage and spreading the rage damage around. However, even if you don't rage, you can still be dealing around 10 pts per attack, which happens to be about the same as a warlock with Agonizing Blast. Tacking on GWM flat damage is icing on the cake.
The best part about Reckless attack is that you don't have to use it all the time. You can hold back if you need to play it more defensively. It's a great toggle for barbarians and can be used in conjunction with rage to operate as a tank without using a shield. It is also a great tool for RP if you let it be.
Barbarians aren't any more MAD than any other tanking class, they want constitution and an attack stat just like every other tanking class. Paladins are arguably more MAD since some of their tanking comes from their Auras, which serves to mitigate incoming damage as well as provide a reason to attack them despite them wearing heavy armor. While a barbarian has to acquire their first armor through some means other than starting gear, getting Scale Mail means an AC of 14 to 16 as long as your dex doesn't dip lower than 10. There is no need to go higher than a 14 dex with medium armor. Even using unarmored defense doesn't require more than a 10-14 dex as long as you are putting some points into con. If you absolutely feel you need it, shields are relatively cheap to buy and can be used at the cost of about 2 damage per hit.
Damage reduction from rage is a great tool for tanking. Those gobs of HP are effectively doubled. Barbearian gets that for all types but psychic damage but prime candidates for barbarians to tank often use the big three and any racial traits providing more is a nice bonus. You showed concern for barbarians being able to heal themselves, stating that others have to provide the healing. A) a self heal while raging could potentially cause rage to drop and maintaining the damage mitigation is usually going to be a better option. B) have you heard of healing potions? C) If the barbarian is keeping the heaviest hitter off the rest of the party and allowing them to focus down the biggest remaining threats, then overall damage will be lower since half damage is better than full damage. The barbarian also gets the bonus of dealing pretty good damage (with tools available to make it great damage) to help bring the heaviest hitter to the ground while tanking instead of choosing an either/or option. This should mean that a heal coming from another quarter, should it be needed, is of greater benefit than going to a bunch of characters. A normal life Cleric's enhanced heals can be doubly efficacious and a grave cleric can full roll heal the barbarian if the barbarian drops (not ideal). Fun interaction with Grave Cleric: Circle of Mortality just says 0 HP, not unconscious. The zealot's 14th level ability allows for that max roll without dropping rage. However, there are other sources of healing that also come into play from other sources that are highly efficacious with barbs: Chef feat treats, Inspiring Leader feat, and Aid are all highly efficient for parties in general. D) you have heard of hit dice, right? Healing with a 1d12 plus your constitution modifier per hit dice can eliminate a lot of the need for spells, at least on average.
While I've highlighted some specific interactions with subclasses and races, this is mostly just the barbarian class doing all this (reckless attacks giving the comfort level needed to take a feat or two without missing the higher damage and higher hit rate of a +2 strength boost as much).
As for the barbarian warlock multiclass, most instances where this is done isn't done for spellcasting while raging. Something like Armor of Agathys can be precast to gain 5 or 10 THP (effectively 10 or 20 with resistance) to give increased survivability while providing additional damage while taking hits. Other spells could be taken for utility, giving the barbarian more tools for out of combat interactions. If the spells don't reference your charisma, you can effectively leave your charisma at the 13 required for multiclassing warlock. A 15 str, 12 dex, 14 con, 8 int, 10 wis, and 13 cha is completely possible there. If you are ok skipping the str and con saves, you could start warlock to get better mental saves that scale with proficiency and effectively make you ok at all non int saves but not great at any.
For your cantrips, you could take BB or GFB for additional options for attacking when you aren't raging and/or select utility for the remainder. Your invocations could be GotELO and fiendish Vigor for some additional sustain out of combat. Remember those d12 hit dice? GotELO works on those. Celestial Warlock can add more options with the bonus cantrips, the ability to select Cure Wounds, the pool of d6s from healing light which doesn't appear to be casting a spell or requiring concentration and does use a bonus action that barbarians don't always have an innate use for. GotELO changes those from a 3.5 average d6 into a straight 6 and you'll have 4 of those per long rest as a warlock 3/barb X. Of course, GotELO works on anyone else's spells, making them feel like Grave Cleric's bringing you back to your feet from 0 HP, without that prerequisite (so closer to Life Cleric 17th level). Fiendish Vigor can make up for the lost hp on the multiclass (4 if start Warlock, 2 average for every level taken after first character level for a potential of 8 which is conveniently the most available from False Life).
If you aren't wanting to maximize the healing, you can take one of the two invocations and go utility with the other. You can also go with a different pact to gain other benefits if GotELO and the familiar aren't interesting enough for you.
I'll give you that barbarians aren't as strategically diverse as other classes, but there is more nuance to their playstyle than you'd first suspect. It's not always rage flipping tables and attacking recklessly and RP can overcome some of the class' lack of social arena abilities.
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I currently have a fighter/barbarian, so not a pure barbarian. But I think both classes suffer from some of the same issues, first and foremost imo, is their saving throws tend to be lacking. Now, I did min/max, so part of that is my fault, no doubt. But you want to have an effective character. Int and Cha are not required for my character. So, those saves will accordingly suffer. But when compared with a number of other classes, their saves are quite poor.
Another issue I have found is my fighter/barbarian suffers in heavy movement fights. I want to melee and don't really attack well from range, but if my target can teleport or fly, by some means, that's a terrible fight for me. The ranged dpr, spellcaster or archer can frequently just slightly reposition and carry on with their spells or attacks. I have to physically run to the target to start my attacks again. Lots of movement in a fight is bad for a barbarian. I do best with opponents who want a slugfest. Heaven forbid it be a mostly aerial fight! My ranged dps is very weak! Pretty much all tank type fighters, paladins and barbarians will have this issue. Sometimes alleviated by a good magic item or multi-classing.
Overall, I like my fighter/barbarian, but do feel he is underpowered or sub optimal in certain fights. But if it's an opponent who wants a knockdown drag out, just like me? That's where my character can shine! I don't have the massive burst paladin of our sorcerer/paladin/warlock. The rogue can do huge hits, at times, also. But with multiple attacks (I have PAM also) and advantage, my fighter/barbarian provides consistent damage. I probably do more damage, over the span of an entire night, than anybody else. It's just spread out over the entire night, instead of bunching it on a few rounds...and I don't run out of spell slots to smite! :)
My main issue with barbarian is way too much relies on rage for my taste...
If you run out you basically have reckless attack feature and that's about it most of the time. I feel confident saying most games this will not be an issue as I think most games do not follow the 3-4 encounters per short rest (2 short rest per day) format but if you do even if you efficiently use rage if you run out you are worse off than basically any other martial class.
What is actually lacklustre about their progress past the mid point?
Every level further increases your advantage in hitpoints over other classes, and you get more uses of Rage. Not only that, you get Relentless Rage (Rage can prevent an already hard to down class from being downed), and later Persistent Rage which makes it a lot more difficult to interrupt your Rage so you rarely have to reenter Rage during a fight. This is the primary scaling of Barbarian, and why pure Barbarian still outshines a class with a Barbarian dip, as being limited to only two more easily interruptible Rages might be fine at lower levels, but at later levels the 5-6 Persistent Rages should comfortably see you through each adventuring day. This is why unlimited Rage isn't as huge as it can first appear as you shouldn't really need it for combat, it's better for players that like to burn Rage to brute force Strength checks out of combat.
Brutal Criticals are okay when you factor in Reckless Attack, since that makes you more likely to get the critical in the first place (10% rather than 5% chance), it's a bit "meh" when it's only the one dice but the two and three are a bit more impressive for a class that doesn't really need to deal all that much damage (though extra is rarely a bad thing).
The only really duff feature of the higher level base Barbarian class is Indomitable Might which is just straight up not good at all; in my groups we play it as Reliable Talent for Strength checks (i.e- can't roll less than 10 for Strength checks) and even with that change it's only okay for an 18th level feature.
But it's a mistake to think that just because a Barbarian gets a lot from its first two or three levels that that means its later levels aren't any good; a lot of classes are the same, which is why multi-classing can be so good, especially as many classes don't have captstone features that are as good as a Barbarian's +4 Strength and Constitution (on top of unlimited Rage).
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Yeah if you are for sure going to 20 I would not MC out of barb myself...that capstone is just amazing with infa rage and 24 STR and CON.
If its like 90% of games and will end by 12th level or sooner I will MC into fighter at level 6 (Barb 5/ Fighter 3/ Rogue x?) is my go too....I like getting expertise in ATH if I can at some point and cunning action is great for a barb.
And how exactly are you getting Great Weapon Fighting on your hypothetical character? By going a class that has none of the Barbarian abilities or by taking a feat you don't need to?
Even assuming you've done one of these, assuming 50% base chance to hit, GWF with a greatsword (average ~8.32 damage per hit) using Reckless Attack (75% chance to hit, 10% chance to crit) with no Brutal Criticals you've got 141.44 damage (17x8.32).
With 50% chance to hit, greataxe (average 6.5 damage per hit) using Reckless Attack and with Brutal Criticals (1) you have 123.5 damage (19x6.5). Less? Sure, but hardly uncompetitive. Increase to Brutal Criticals (2) and you've got 136.5 damage (21x6.5) which is a less than 1% difference for no added cost.
That's assuming a straight swap of the Brutal Criticals feature for Great Weapon Fighting instead. For a non-Barbarian with no Reckless Attack and the same number of attacks (so a 50% chance to hit and 5% chance of a critical) you're looking at 91.52 (11x8.32).
Meanwhile if you are going to make the investment to add GWF to a Barbarian, then you get both the re-rolls for 1's and 2's and Brutal Criticals (1), for 149.76 (18x8.32), or with Brutal Criticals (2) it's 158.08 (19x8.32). Nearly 12% more damage. Do the same thing (Brutal Criticals (2) and GWF) with the greataxe (now 7.33 per hit) and you're still on 153.93 (21x7.33), which is still around 9% added damage.
All of these are assuming average damage for 20 attacks.
Of course the specifics change with ability scores, added Rage damage, chance to hit etc. but I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible. Added damage is added damage, and it means the Barbarian's damage output, along with the increase to Rage damage actually scales more than you seem to want to admit. So it's a class that can tank extremely well (best class in the game, still haven't proven otherwise) but it also puts solid damage throughout.
Over 20 levels it's a 20 HP difference, ignoring the fact you could have a full +7 CON at level 20 (a full +2 better than any other martial class), it is also effectively doubled by Rage to 40 more hit points for tanking with. No feat required.
And make the first few levels of Barbarian even stronger for a lazy multi-class dip? You complain about the class not gaining more at later levels yet want to front-load the class even more?! It's already the best class for dipping into to add durability, and the scaling is fine; now you're just being greedy.
Not really; when's the last time you had more than four encounters in a single adventuring day? If you can remember the last time, how many of those encounters actually required you to use Rage at all?
It is one of the best capstones because unlimited Rages is not unrelated to it; you get both unlimited Rage and the highest Strength and Constitution of any class, which not only should give you a full 40 extra hit points, but also one of the best chances to hit of any class (especially when combined with Reckless Attack).
You seem intent upon belittling the class by looking at little parts of it in total isolation while utterly refusing to look at it is a class as a whole; I'm sorry, but you made your ridiculous claim to it being the worst tank literally pages ago, and have utterly failed to make your case ever since. It's a class that can take a lot of punishment with barely any effort, or a huge amount with some strategy, while putting out solid damage, and with a whole bunch of extra ability to boot that other classes do not get. But no, somehow it's magically the worst class for tanking but we just have to trust your word for it?
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Lol at the capstone being the worst...
A Zealot Barb with the right set up can just fight indefinitely at level 20....talk about a good tank let's talk about the guy who can't be put down at all despite being at 0 hp for the last 10 rounds?
....yes we can because as I alluded to I think the vast majority of players are not doing the 6-8 encounters.
I think the class benefits from the low encounter count of most tables. Much like the short rest classes often suffer.
Except it's not, as I've shown, as the difference in damage isn't really that large, for a class which doesn't need to deal large amounts of damage to be doing what it's for. You keep focusing excessively on raw damage output but your claim is that Barbarian is the worst tank, you don't need to deal a lot of damage to tank, being able to do so is nice but not necessary. Barbarians do more than enough damage to be competitive at all levels.
It does if you want to play a tank, you know, on the class that is supposedly the worst tank in the game according… well, who was it that said that again? 🤔
You apparently hate tanks being capable of tanking, and hate damage, yet also hate a captstone that makes an already good class better at both? See what I mean about utterly failing to make your case? You can't even keep your own arguments straight!
At six encounters you can Rage during two thirds of them with four uses, five sixths with five or all of them with six, that means in the worst case you only have to conserve Rage for two of them. This isn't much different than most other long rest bound resource classes; even at level 20 a Wizard doesn't have enough slots of 6+ to cover all six encounters, meaning they're limit to 5th level for at least two, even factoring in meat and potatoes slots they max at 3 5th levels, so the reality is they're probably going to want to limit themselves to 1st to 4th for one or two encounters, to save the big stuff for when they really need it. Or even stick to cantrips, because while they can get 22 slots total, which sounds like a lot, they can also burn through those quickly, that's just conservation of resources like any long rest class.
Barbarians get a lot out of Rage when they use it; multiple effects that it would take most casters multiple spells to emulate in fact, and it's usually not that hard to know when an encounter is likely to need Rage or not, that's just the skill of playing as a Barbarian, and it's part of the party dynamic as a whole; just as it's better to conserve the healer's healing, sometimes don't want the tank to tank, if it means they can do it later. But from level 20 onwards? They absolutely can, and I'd say combined with the STR and CON boost it's absolutely the equal of the Artificer's; as while you can build an Artificer to tank they'll be a very differnt style of tank, need those attunement slots to either fill in the gaps, or specialise in some other way entirely.
And a Barbarian without Rage isn't actually helpless; they're still tougher than most, and they have a whole load of abilities that aren't keyed to Rage such as Danger Sense, Reckless Attack, Unarmored Defence etc. You don't want to run out of Rage uses, but it's not exactly the end of the world either, unlike a full caster who runs out of spell slots.
But this is just getting boring now; you've clearly made up your mind from the outset, but you won't listen to arguments to the contrary, you're just making twisted little non-arguments to try and "prove" your already held belief, but again you keep failing to do-so. It's not healthy, and I'm tired of it, so I'll be unsubscribing from this topic. Everything that should ever need to be said has already been said, you didn't listen, goodbye.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Zealot barbs have one of the best DPR in the game with the proper feats: Polearm Master + Greatweapon master.....as they have at will advantage on attacks
They are like just behind the cheesy Hexblade/Darkness/Devilsight combo.
Optimized DPR 5e DnD - Google Sheets
So, two things to address. The lack of fun (for you) and mechanical effectiveness. The first one is subjective. On effectiveness, having a front liner (usually a fighter or barbarian) is critical to the party. Unless your Wizard would like the big monster to get in his face. Having a meat shield with unlimited single target damage output is critical.
The the barbarian is perfect for that role. With reckless attack (giving advantage at will) their damage output is (typically) superior than the fighter, and they're resilient AF. The Zealot adds yet more damage. Ancestral Guardian forces the first target you hit to attack only you, or suffer disadvantage. At level 6 you can reduce damage to your alies as a reaction. I can go on, but if you don't see the value in a front line warrior, I'm not sure what to say. Barbarians are excellent front liners.
Well. considering the way numbers play out. they aren't in fact bad at damage. And it's far more sustainable than most things that can temporarily do more.
I don't have to refute it by going "Well they are a tank." Fighters aren't low in damage either. What your using as your justifications, or rather non-justifications here are purely subjective.
And if you want to use the argument "Well all Magic Users do so much more damage." Yes... They Do. In optimal conditions they often don't have in actual play which tends to balance everything out more than the theoretical math usually shows. AoE spells are almost always talked about in terms of hitting at least 4+ targets where their damage starts looking really impressive. But the damage isn't necessarily that impressive on 3 or less compared to 2 to 3 individual hits from Martial characters with a DPS focused build usually. And Single Target Spells tend to do some nice damage at high level. But multiple attacks on a single target from plenty of martial builds manage similar numbers If you actually consider it in full Damage per round and not damage per attack. But 2 or even 3 20-30 point hits never sound as impressive to most players as one hit that does 40-60 damage. Even if those 20-30 point hits actually end up adding up to the higher of that range and the single hit is middling or lower on it. Monks actually suffer from this a lot at low level. They actually do as much or more damage as most of their counter parts swinging things like Two Handed weapons at the first tier of play just from their martial art die. But that individual die looks so much smaller and that individual hit is nowhere near as impressive. So we need to make that die as big as possible to make it at all feel comparable. Despite the fact that the monks damage from those couple of hits versus that one were often overall better. Another Example of the same phenomenon is how often people look at bigger damage numbers that are only capable of spikes and usually can't be sustained more than one or two rounds vs. something else that does slightly lower but for much longer periods. Which is often a measurement used by the general consensus to say one thing is good and another is bad despite overall they work out to closely the same under most conditions.
What an interesting conversation about the best class in DnD.
So we are operating under the assumption that barbarians are the only tank in the party. I always likened the 5e Barbarians to Roadhog or Zarya from Overwatch. Not a great main tanks but stellar off-tanks that have some cool abilities to hang around and vomit out damage in a burst. To the OP, that is their point. Put a barbarian and paladin close together and watch to your players' horror as both of them are up 10 rounds later. Or worse yet, two different subclasses of barbarian. They make excellent secondary tanks because of the hybrid damage mitigation and and damage output they have.
As a main tank I am not sure the barbarian does the best job, at least not in 5e. I miss the days of Str and Con and movement buffs while raging. This would help with their overall ability to sustain as well. Outside of busted things like Bear totem and Ancestral Guardian a lot of them struggle quite a bit to tank a mob's damage. They do more damage than mitigate or soak up damage in my opinion.
I'm curious why you don't think Barbarians make the best main tank. They don't get heavy armor, but that's more than offset by halving most damage and the highest hit dice.
I've only ever had one player who could out tank my barbarian. It was a very specific warforged paladin/sorcerer build with the defense fighting style, full plate, a shield, and the shield spell. I think he had 22 AC at tier 1 with no magic items, AND he would cast shield when enemies got lucky. That was ridiculous lol. But yeah, on more normal common builds I think the barbarians edge out most fighters and paladins in being able to take punishment.