I'm new to the game and I'm currently playing my first two campaigns simultaneously.
I really like the idea of the college of creation brad. When I spoken to both my DMs the pattern is the same. "Wow this is amazing", "I love it'
But the enthusiasm soon tempers and it comes down to only really being able to create what could be bought in the state that it could be bought. And not being able to create things that have no value, eg a gust of wind etc etc. So the ability could create a pile of wood, but not a bonfire. It could create a lump of metal, but the metal can't be in a molten form. You can create a full tool kit, but you'd still need the proficiency to use them.
The next points of discussion is what could it be used for things like ;
Putting a rock infront of a door
Creating a weapon/tool kit if yours get taken away from you.
Some food that will nourish you for as long as the spell lasts then reverting back to a state where you hadn't eaten the food.
Some raw meat to distract wild animals
reagents for spells. - mostly at level 14 which is either at the very end or after the campaign ends.
None of these seem especially worth sinking an entire subclass into. They all could happen, but it's probably not going to happen that frequently.
I would like to take it, but it's so underwhelming.
I thought i'd ask the community on the above conditions:
Can you think of 3 things, Combat, Social and Exploration that either couldn't (or would be very hard/awkward) to accomplish that Performance of Creations could, but either a spell or gold couldn't.
I feel that I'm having a lack of imagination, but in a practical sense. Is this ability a dud?
You can create rope for tying things, some manacles, a torch, a bag for carrying things. Basically, whatever you need at the time you need it. Got Find Familiar, say, from a feat or something? Now you can just make the components.
At 6th level your item can now be "Large" and you get animating performance. Now you can just create your Large mount and Animate it. Voila, for the next hour you have a flying battle-mount.
You can also create other large items up to 120 gp worth, like a ladder to get out of a hole or over a wall. Raw materials aren't expensive, so create a Large boulder for cover.
When you get to 14th level, you can create anything without GP limits - so yes, no component costs for any spell. This is an insanely powerful ability. Multiple Resurrections a day (you're now better at this than the Cleric can ever be), take some choice 9th level spells like Imprisonment without concern of their high GP cost, unlimited Clone spells without needing Wish, and much, much more.
Creation Bards are extremely versatile and one of the strongest subclasses.
The next points of discussion is what could it be used for things like ;
Putting a rock infront of a door
Creating a weapon/tool kit if yours get taken away from you.
reagents for spells. - mostly at level 14 which is either at the very end or after the campaign ends.
These are things i've already covered.
Weapons and tools could get taken away from you, but that's probably not going to happen in every session.
The above level 14 as mentioned is a non-factor for one campaign as it only goes to 10 and the other goes to 16 so only available right at the very end.
I think you may have missed it.
If there's nothing else then i'm thinking this is somewhere between a D and E tier :(
Can you think of 3 things, Combat, Social and Exploration that either couldn't (or would be very hard/awkward) to accomplish that Performance of Creations could, but either a spell or gold couldn't.
Depends on your DM. Unlike a Conjuration Wizard, there's no requirement you have seen the object you are making. That's broken beyond all belief, and you can be sure your DM will nerf it somehow. If not nerfed, you can:
Exploration: Manifest the key for any lock you happen across. Also works for non-keys, like if you happen across a magic door that only opens when presented with the Very Small Ruby Herring of Ni. Also works for maps.
Any macguffin that's nonmagical and cheap enough is fair game, no matter how obscure.
Social: Walk up to literally anyone and manifest a piece of paper with their most closely-held secret written upon it. Or their name. Or whatever.
On a fundamental level, you can use this ability as omniscient divination magic unless nerfed. The exploration version of this is maps - the social version of this basically makes you an absolutely unstoppable politician, or lawyer, or detective, or any other profession that relies on secrecy/privacy to exist in order to function.
Combat: Manifest a laser rifle (cost -) and an ammo cartridge (cost -) for it.
This emphasizes the fact that the ability can make any item that exists on any world, not just your own. Since you don't need to have encountered it, anything that exists anywhere - on any plane! - is fair game.
Note that this is absolutely how the ability works RAW, which is why the Talking Doll common magic item in Xanathar's had to be errataed - the original text of it made the doll omniscient, and it was due to very similar wording, i.e. the doll could utter any phrase you wanted under any condition you set, with no requirement the condition be observable. Same thing here. There's just no requirement you observe what you make - so you don't have to.
I didn't ask about that, given the answer to a bonfire was no.
You'd also need to be above level 14 for that as the item and the ammo are two items and you can only get one. But I doubt that's going the be the biggest problem with with that.
There's a concept known as a "ribbon" ability, which is an ability that is mostly for flavor rather than mechanical or combat benefits. Not all abilities have to contribute equally to the balance of a class and can instead just contribute to the thematics and style of the class.
That said, I don't think Performance of Creation is a ribbon ability. You've already mentioned a lot of the uses for it from level 3 to level 5 and it isn't an inconsiderable list. From level 6 onwards it gets better and better and with even a little bit of creativity it can probably turn the tide of entire campaigns.
Consider: You've only mentioned the uses for making things appear with the ability, but you can also make things disappear with it, namely things you've created previously. Think of all the booby traps you could trigger when the rope you created earlier disappears after you use a spell slot to trigger the ability again.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I didn't ask about that, given the answer to a bonfire was no.
You'd also need to be above level 14 for that as the item and the ammo are two items and you can only get one. But I doubt that's going the be the biggest problem with with that.
At earlier levels you'd need to sell your DM on letting you treat a loaded rifle as a single object, which may be possible if you declare the object you want to make as one with an integrated mag (i.e. one that can't be reloaded because the cartridge is integral to the assembly). But as you say, your DM is unlikely to go for it. RAW the ability is far too OP to allow to exist, and every DM at every table is bound to nerf it into the ground to avoid it derailing entire campaigns. The question is how exactly your DM will nerf it.
Incidentally, in terms of a bonfire - as a general rule your best bet is solids, and not ones that are ground up. Trying to manifest a powder, liquid, gas, or plasma will get into weird weeds because 5E doesn't define the word object and it has no clear definition in English. However, unless your DM specifically nerfs you, you can control the temperature the object appears at. That means you can manifest a block of wood that's so incredibly hot it catches fire as soon as it comes into being provided there's air around it (since you can't manifest the wood and the oxygen it needs to burn at the same time, it undeniably makes sense you can't manifest wood that's already combusting) - again, unless your DM tells you no. But we can't forecast every possible nerf your DM will throw at the ability. It's much easier for you to tell us what your specific nerfs are so we can help figure out what you're still allowed to do.
Like, I can keep going. I just don't know what your DM will ban. E.g. you should be able to manifest objects as cold as you like, just like you can manifest objects as hot as you like. Will your DM ban you from manifesting things at absolute zero? How should I know?
Depends on your DM. Unlike a Conjuration Wizard, there's no requirement you have seen the object you are making.
Unless an ability is specifically meant to be a smart ability, I wouldn't give it any more knowledge or reach than it's suggested uses. I think you're extrapolating a bit too much here.
It's much easier for you to tell us what your specific nerfs are so we can help figure out what you're still allowed to do.
Like, I can keep going. I just don't know what your DM will ban. E.g. you should be able to manifest objects as cold as you like, just like you can manifest objects as hot as you like. Will your DM ban you from manifesting things at absolute zero? How should I know?
Good question. The answer was. You can only manifest things can could be bought in Faerun (to the gold limit) and only in the state that they would be bought at.
So you can buy wood, but you can't by hot wood.You can buy copper, but not molten copper. You an also only make things that you know of, so I couldn't make a book about history of X if I didn't already know it. etc.
I played a Creation Bard from 1-13 in Waterdeep: Dragon Heist and Descent Into Avernus.
The additional effects from Bardic Inspiration were fun, though I had to keep reminding the party what they did.
Creating spell components is handy even before level 13. For example, we were in hell and had nowhere to buy diamonds for Greater Restoration, but I could make them myself whenever I needed to cast it. The majority of uses for that ability came from making spell components, honestly.
I used it to make other things like a silvered weapon, a bar to block a door, a giant watermelon to stave off heat exhaustion, a giant cake to impress a crazy fey, a fur coat to protect from cold weather exhaustion. The most clutch use was when we lost all our stuff and I could create a spell focus for myself.
The dancing item is also handy as an occasional pet, I mostly used it by animating the largest object allowed and getting it to block corridors.
It's certainly not the strongest subclass but it's not weak either, and it's a lot of fun.
In some cases, can you combine a spell effect after the initial ability use? i.e. perhaps you can't create molten copper, but can create copper coins or trade bars, then cast heat metal on it. Can you create an item like a metal helm, but on an enemies head, and then cast heat metal on it?
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Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
In some cases, can you combine a spell effect after the initial ability use? i.e. perhaps you can't create molten copper, but can create copper coins or trade bars, then cast heat metal on it.
I've used performance of creation to create a copy of the Big Bad's diary of self-incrimination, the keys to the castle, as well as the stuff we forgot to pack like manacles, folded tents & ladders. I've also created art fakes which I then sold (can't go back to that town...) Using it as a doorstop is fine as it goes, but there's so much more potential. If a lit campfire isn't allowed, what about a campfire kit, including wood, firelighters and a firesteel?
I'd disagree with not being able to create a bucket of molten copper - if you went into a forge and asked to buy one, you'd get some seriously odd looks, but it's feasible. The item also doesn't have to be purchasable, just the material cost can't be more than specified. A rock is a rock, even if I create a very hot rock.
Where the limit should be is on what your character can feasibly imagine. My character couldn't conceive of a laser rifle that wasn't a magical device, so that's not an option for them, nor could they specify dinosaur ivory for their animated scrimshaw horse statue. If your DM's shutting down your creativity that's one thing, but that doesn't mean the subclass is bad, just not suited to your table.
CoC is a great specialism. However it suffers from "DM says no" too much.
Unfortunately if you're limited enough by what is allowed it essentially becomes one of the worst specialisms available to bards, if not the game.
This wouldn't be true even if you completely removed Performance of Creation. You'd still have the ability to turn a boulder or a log into a flying battle mount at level 6. I think you're pinning too much of the subclass on Performance of Creation.
I'm gonna go Lore instead.
I mean sure, Lore is a great subclass. That doesn't mean Creation is anywhere near as bad as you're putting it.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
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I'm new to the game and I'm currently playing my first two campaigns simultaneously.
I really like the idea of the college of creation brad. When I spoken to both my DMs the pattern is the same. "Wow this is amazing", "I love it'
But the enthusiasm soon tempers and it comes down to only really being able to create what could be bought in the state that it could be bought. And not being able to create things that have no value, eg a gust of wind etc etc. So the ability could create a pile of wood, but not a bonfire. It could create a lump of metal, but the metal can't be in a molten form. You can create a full tool kit, but you'd still need the proficiency to use them.
The next points of discussion is what could it be used for things like ;
Putting a rock infront of a door
Creating a weapon/tool kit if yours get taken away from you.
Some food that will nourish you for as long as the spell lasts then reverting back to a state where you hadn't eaten the food.
Some raw meat to distract wild animals
reagents for spells. - mostly at level 14 which is either at the very end or after the campaign ends.
None of these seem especially worth sinking an entire subclass into. They all could happen, but it's probably not going to happen that frequently.
I would like to take it, but it's so underwhelming.
I thought i'd ask the community on the above conditions:
Can you think of 3 things, Combat, Social and Exploration that either couldn't (or would be very hard/awkward) to accomplish that Performance of Creations could, but either a spell or gold couldn't.
I feel that I'm having a lack of imagination, but in a practical sense. Is this ability a dud?
You can create weapons, armor and tools.
You can create rope for tying things, some manacles, a torch, a bag for carrying things. Basically, whatever you need at the time you need it. Got Find Familiar, say, from a feat or something? Now you can just make the components.
At 6th level your item can now be "Large" and you get animating performance. Now you can just create your Large mount and Animate it. Voila, for the next hour you have a flying battle-mount.
You can also create other large items up to 120 gp worth, like a ladder to get out of a hole or over a wall. Raw materials aren't expensive, so create a Large boulder for cover.
When you get to 14th level, you can create anything without GP limits - so yes, no component costs for any spell. This is an insanely powerful ability. Multiple Resurrections a day (you're now better at this than the Cleric can ever be), take some choice 9th level spells like Imprisonment without concern of their high GP cost, unlimited Clone spells without needing Wish, and much, much more.
Creation Bards are extremely versatile and one of the strongest subclasses.
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These are things i've already covered.
Weapons and tools could get taken away from you, but that's probably not going to happen in every session.
The above level 14 as mentioned is a non-factor for one campaign as it only goes to 10 and the other goes to 16 so only available right at the very end.
I think you may have missed it.
If there's nothing else then i'm thinking this is somewhere between a D and E tier :(
makes me said .
Depends on your DM. Unlike a Conjuration Wizard, there's no requirement you have seen the object you are making. That's broken beyond all belief, and you can be sure your DM will nerf it somehow. If not nerfed, you can:
Note that this is absolutely how the ability works RAW, which is why the Talking Doll common magic item in Xanathar's had to be errataed - the original text of it made the doll omniscient, and it was due to very similar wording, i.e. the doll could utter any phrase you wanted under any condition you set, with no requirement the condition be observable. Same thing here. There's just no requirement you observe what you make - so you don't have to.
Laser rifle?
I didn't ask about that, given the answer to a bonfire was no.
You'd also need to be above level 14 for that as the item and the ammo are two items and you can only get one. But I doubt that's going the be the biggest problem with with that.
There's a concept known as a "ribbon" ability, which is an ability that is mostly for flavor rather than mechanical or combat benefits. Not all abilities have to contribute equally to the balance of a class and can instead just contribute to the thematics and style of the class.
That said, I don't think Performance of Creation is a ribbon ability. You've already mentioned a lot of the uses for it from level 3 to level 5 and it isn't an inconsiderable list. From level 6 onwards it gets better and better and with even a little bit of creativity it can probably turn the tide of entire campaigns.
Consider: You've only mentioned the uses for making things appear with the ability, but you can also make things disappear with it, namely things you've created previously. Think of all the booby traps you could trigger when the rope you created earlier disappears after you use a spell slot to trigger the ability again.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
At earlier levels you'd need to sell your DM on letting you treat a loaded rifle as a single object, which may be possible if you declare the object you want to make as one with an integrated mag (i.e. one that can't be reloaded because the cartridge is integral to the assembly). But as you say, your DM is unlikely to go for it. RAW the ability is far too OP to allow to exist, and every DM at every table is bound to nerf it into the ground to avoid it derailing entire campaigns. The question is how exactly your DM will nerf it.
Incidentally, in terms of a bonfire - as a general rule your best bet is solids, and not ones that are ground up. Trying to manifest a powder, liquid, gas, or plasma will get into weird weeds because 5E doesn't define the word object and it has no clear definition in English. However, unless your DM specifically nerfs you, you can control the temperature the object appears at. That means you can manifest a block of wood that's so incredibly hot it catches fire as soon as it comes into being provided there's air around it (since you can't manifest the wood and the oxygen it needs to burn at the same time, it undeniably makes sense you can't manifest wood that's already combusting) - again, unless your DM tells you no. But we can't forecast every possible nerf your DM will throw at the ability. It's much easier for you to tell us what your specific nerfs are so we can help figure out what you're still allowed to do.
Like, I can keep going. I just don't know what your DM will ban. E.g. you should be able to manifest objects as cold as you like, just like you can manifest objects as hot as you like. Will your DM ban you from manifesting things at absolute zero? How should I know?
Unless an ability is specifically meant to be a smart ability, I wouldn't give it any more knowledge or reach than it's suggested uses. I think you're extrapolating a bit too much here.
Again, I think you're extrapolating a bit too much into things I would consider unreasonable. This is Matter magic, not Forces.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Good question. The answer was. You can only manifest things can could be bought in Faerun (to the gold limit) and only in the state that they would be bought at.
So you can buy wood, but you can't by hot wood.You can buy copper, but not molten copper. You an also only make things that you know of, so I couldn't make a book about history of X if I didn't already know it. etc.
I played a Creation Bard from 1-13 in Waterdeep: Dragon Heist and Descent Into Avernus.
The additional effects from Bardic Inspiration were fun, though I had to keep reminding the party what they did.
Creating spell components is handy even before level 13. For example, we were in hell and had nowhere to buy diamonds for Greater Restoration, but I could make them myself whenever I needed to cast it. The majority of uses for that ability came from making spell components, honestly.
I used it to make other things like a silvered weapon, a bar to block a door, a giant watermelon to stave off heat exhaustion, a giant cake to impress a crazy fey, a fur coat to protect from cold weather exhaustion. The most clutch use was when we lost all our stuff and I could create a spell focus for myself.
The dancing item is also handy as an occasional pet, I mostly used it by animating the largest object allowed and getting it to block corridors.
It's certainly not the strongest subclass but it's not weak either, and it's a lot of fun.
In some cases, can you combine a spell effect after the initial ability use? i.e. perhaps you can't create molten copper, but can create copper coins or trade bars, then cast heat metal on it. Can you create an item like a metal helm, but on an enemies head, and then cast heat metal on it?
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
That sounds perfectly fine.
No, Performance of Creation can only create things in unoccupied spaces. I would not count "on someone's head" an unoccupied space.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I've used performance of creation to create a copy of the Big Bad's diary of self-incrimination, the keys to the castle, as well as the stuff we forgot to pack like manacles, folded tents & ladders. I've also created art fakes which I then sold (can't go back to that town...) Using it as a doorstop is fine as it goes, but there's so much more potential. If a lit campfire isn't allowed, what about a campfire kit, including wood, firelighters and a firesteel?
I'd disagree with not being able to create a bucket of molten copper - if you went into a forge and asked to buy one, you'd get some seriously odd looks, but it's feasible. The item also doesn't have to be purchasable, just the material cost can't be more than specified. A rock is a rock, even if I create a very hot rock.
Where the limit should be is on what your character can feasibly imagine. My character couldn't conceive of a laser rifle that wasn't a magical device, so that's not an option for them, nor could they specify dinosaur ivory for their animated scrimshaw horse statue. If your DM's shutting down your creativity that's one thing, but that doesn't mean the subclass is bad, just not suited to your table.
CoC is a great specialism. However it suffers from "DM says no" too much.
Unfortunately if you're limited enough by what is allowed it essentially becomes one of the worst specialisms available to bards, if not the game.
I'm gonna go Lore instead.
This wouldn't be true even if you completely removed Performance of Creation. You'd still have the ability to turn a boulder or a log into a flying battle mount at level 6. I think you're pinning too much of the subclass on Performance of Creation.
I mean sure, Lore is a great subclass. That doesn't mean Creation is anywhere near as bad as you're putting it.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!