Never played a bard before but have a few on DDB that I've made in case I have an opportunity to try. But other than the Valor or Swords Bard (maybe Whispers with Psychic Blades) it seems that for damage, as a full caster, the bard is lacking. I know they are more about control, but I wish they had a few more damaging tricks up their sleeves. I also have an Enchanter wizard I made and he seems like he could control quite well as well as bring the pain, when needed.
Am I missing something? I know they have a few spells, like Shatter, at low levels that does some decent damage. But in a game I'm in, there is a bard in the party, and sometimes they seem to have little to contribute, other times they "knock it out of the park". Maybe it's more of the creatures we are facing or by the time their turn comes, using an AOE would catch other party members.
Maybe it's just not a class for me or for the type of game the DM is running. Are there any guides for playing a Bard that you would recommend that might help me understand more of the role of this class? Or how to get the most out of them?
Early on I use Two Weapon Fighting or a Crossbow. Later I cast spells and use a Crossbow now and then. Many folks just want more in the damage department and the other things bards do just don't make up for that.
It's OK. I don't think I'll ever play a monk. I'm into the classic D&D tropes.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Bards are all about variety and flexibility, and have access to a large catalog of abilities and spells as well as the power to learn spells from other classes. You can build a damage dealing Bard, especially if you pick the right spells and go college of swords, but the fun of Bards is the utility and support you can provide as well as the roleplaying options.
You know how Bards have a feature called “Jack of all Trades?” That’s because that’s exactly what they are. They are good at anything and everything, but they are masters of none.
Thank you for the replies. I know they have some good spells on their list so maybe I’m just not thinking of it in the correct frame of mind. Back when I played AD&D years ago it was combat, combat, combat for the most part. And the current game I’m in seems to be focused more on that pillar than the other two right now.
Bards have a few good damage spells, but they do excell at control and support. If you are already concentrating on a spell, consider using a Dissonant Whispers to do some damage, keep the enemy away and give your melee teammates a free attack of opportunity all for just one first level spell slot.
Whatever you feel the bard is lacking grab any spell you want with magical secrets.
I play a swords bard and I keep up in damage with the rogue and paladin. Not sure for how much longer as we are level 7. I have much for flexibility though.
So my suggestion to help your bard (full-caster) (please go lore bard!) and make it more combat oriented would be to start as a human to grab the feat magic initiate (warlock) or you could wait until 4th level and snag eldritch blast, prestidigitation, and hellish rebuke (as the 1st level spell option). Doing this will give you access to eldritch blast (one of the strongest damage cantrips and an excellent go to spell if you use your bonus action for a healing word) and hellish rebuke (which gives you a use for your reaction other than cutting words).
Not only that but going with Lore will give you 3 magical secret opportunities instead of 2 where you can snag those incredible spells you’re looking for whether for combat or otherwise!
But most times you’re looking to help your peers become more effective themselves (examples being like making your opponents controlled/no longer a threat, giving your allies advantage through faerie fire or even granted them some neat attacks of opportunity while dealing some nice damage with dissonant whispers).
Valor isn't really a melee class. It gets all martial weapons and medium armor and shield, but all it gets in the way of damage boosting is a second attack at level 6. Really you're taking Valor for the ability to get AC19 while still casting your Bard spells.
Swords is where the melee damage is, at least until you run out of bardic inspiration dice to add to your damage rolls (and before you get to level 14 where you can always use a D6 for your flourishes). However College of Swords just gets the basic Bard weapons plus scimitar, and medium armor without shields. You do get a couple of fighting styles though, I'd suggest dueling for +2 damage with a single weapon. Since you can only use a flourish once per turn there's little benefit to using two hand weapons, and of course you want a hand free for spell-casting.
One thing that can help Sword bard is one level in Hexblade. That gives you all martial weapons and shields, the ability to use your charisma stat with your primary melee weapon, and the Eldritch Blast cantrip. You could also take the Shield spell for a bit more protection.
It does seem that lore might be the way to go if I’m not trying to do too much, if any, melee. The 6th level magical secrets would be a good way to get more damage, or the feat that several have mentioned. Or both to maybe get more control options bards might not have access to in their spell list.
Also there are definitely other ways to contribute to combat other than damage. Bards are pretty good at making enemies whiff their attacks. Apply both Bane and Vicious Mockery to an opponent and watch as they bumble and fumble their attacks. Great for making a fool of your enemies. Heat Metal is widely regarded as one of the best Bard spells because they can't save against the damage or the Disadvantage, they can only save against the involuntary dropping of the item. If you apply it to a piece of armor that takes a whole minute to remove you have a source of repeatable damage every turn AND disadvantage on attacks.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
And don’t forget Enthrall. Spinning a good yarn for a minute so that your party can stealth kill the baddies without their companions noticing until it is too late is awesome.
The best you can do in the short-term is probably a bow. If I ever play a full bard (I am playing an MC warlock-bard atm, and damage is /not/ an issue for me), I'd probably pick the Levistus tiefling race so that I can throw some ray of frost when I don't have something else to do with my action. A lot of people are pretty enthused with vicious mockery, but imo it doesn't scale well. In a world where multi-attack exists, disadvantage on the next attack only doesn't scale well, nor does the d4 damage.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Ah yes, Vicious Mockery. If it was D6 damage and disadvantage on all attacks until the Bard's next turn it might actually be worthwhile.
However the idea of a cantrip doing a maximum of 16 damage at level 17 is just too pathetic to bother with.
A single level dip in Hexblade makes things so much better, and Hexblade/College of Swords harmonizes very well. Of course if you're not going to get to level 18 Bard for magical secrets then three levels for Pact of the Blade isn't a bad idea.
Ah yes, Vicious Mockery. If it was D6 damage and disadvantage on all attacks until the Bard's next turn it might actually be worthwhile.
However the idea of a cantrip doing a maximum of 16 damage at level 17 is just too pathetic to bother with.
Except that it doesn't only do 16 points of damage, it is also disadvantage on an attack roll and it allows you to cast, say Healing Word to get a fallen comrade back up if needed. At range. Is it the best damage dealing cantrip out there? No. But it's not supposed to be, either.
Besides, at level 17 you have Power Word Kill which is basically Vicious Mockery taken to the extreme. ;)
Swords is over-rated. Valor giving the inspiration die to another character has a similar effect and more, allows the bard to maintain a better AC without an inspiration die cost, and allows for casting a spell on the same turn either is used. Swords flourishes are once and require the attack action to use. It's also possible to make a STR GWM valor bard because of the proficiencies but generally not common over DEX.
All bard colleges are good.
Direct damage isn't usually great but secrets can improve that; however, spells like dissonant whispers and compulsion trigger opportunity attacks for some hefty damage potential.
Build the bard to cover weaker areas the group needs covered. Bards can do a lot but not everything, and trying to be too many things in one build wears it too thin.
Adelberto, Sword 6/Hexblade 1, is a fairly decent fighter, helped (in no small part) by a +2 Longsword. Not as good as a dedicated Fighter, of course, but he is also a full spellcaster and that counts for a lot.
Ah yes, Vicious Mockery. If it was D6 damage and disadvantage on all attacks until the Bard's next turn it might actually be worthwhile.
However the idea of a cantrip doing a maximum of 16 damage at level 17 is just too pathetic to bother with.
Except that it doesn't only do 16 points of damage, it is also disadvantage on an attack roll and it allows you to cast, say Healing Word to get a fallen comrade back up if needed. At range. Is it the best damage dealing cantrip out there? No. But it's not supposed to be, either.
Besides, at level 17 you have Power Word Kill which is basically Vicious Mockery taken to the extreme. ;)
At higher levels where most monsters multi-attack, disadvantage on one attack is pretty meh, and the damage is just pathetic. Vicious Mockery is pretty overrated imo.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Ah yes, Vicious Mockery. If it was D6 damage and disadvantage on all attacks until the Bard's next turn it might actually be worthwhile.
However the idea of a cantrip doing a maximum of 16 damage at level 17 is just too pathetic to bother with.
Except that it doesn't only do 16 points of damage, it is also disadvantage on an attack roll and it allows you to cast, say Healing Word to get a fallen comrade back up if needed. At range. Is it the best damage dealing cantrip out there? No. But it's not supposed to be, either.
Besides, at level 17 you have Power Word Kill which is basically Vicious Mockery taken to the extreme. ;)
At higher levels where most monsters multi-attack, disadvantage on one attack is pretty meh, and the damage is just pathetic. Vicious Mockery is pretty overrated imo.
At high levels you can use power word kill.
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Never played a bard before but have a few on DDB that I've made in case I have an opportunity to try. But other than the Valor or Swords Bard (maybe Whispers with Psychic Blades) it seems that for damage, as a full caster, the bard is lacking. I know they are more about control, but I wish they had a few more damaging tricks up their sleeves. I also have an Enchanter wizard I made and he seems like he could control quite well as well as bring the pain, when needed.
Am I missing something? I know they have a few spells, like Shatter, at low levels that does some decent damage. But in a game I'm in, there is a bard in the party, and sometimes they seem to have little to contribute, other times they "knock it out of the park". Maybe it's more of the creatures we are facing or by the time their turn comes, using an AOE would catch other party members.
Maybe it's just not a class for me or for the type of game the DM is running. Are there any guides for playing a Bard that you would recommend that might help me understand more of the role of this class? Or how to get the most out of them?
Thanks
It sounds like bards are just not for you.
Early on I use Two Weapon Fighting or a Crossbow. Later I cast spells and use a Crossbow now and then. Many folks just want more in the damage department and the other things bards do just don't make up for that.
It's OK. I don't think I'll ever play a monk. I'm into the classic D&D tropes.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Bards are all about variety and flexibility, and have access to a large catalog of abilities and spells as well as the power to learn spells from other classes. You can build a damage dealing Bard, especially if you pick the right spells and go college of swords, but the fun of Bards is the utility and support you can provide as well as the roleplaying options.
James Haeck wrote a few guides to Bards, focusing on two of the subclasses:
College of Valor - https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/609-bard-101-college-of-valor
College of Lore - https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/503-bard-101-college-of-lore
Hope that helps!
Find me on Twitter: @OboeLauren
You know how Bards have a feature called “Jack of all Trades?” That’s because that’s exactly what they are. They are good at anything and everything, but they are masters of none.
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
Thank you for the replies. I know they have some good spells on their list so maybe I’m just not thinking of it in the correct frame of mind. Back when I played AD&D years ago it was combat, combat, combat for the most part. And the current game I’m in seems to be focused more on that pillar than the other two right now.
Bards have a few good damage spells, but they do excell at control and support. If you are already concentrating on a spell, consider using a Dissonant Whispers to do some damage, keep the enemy away and give your melee teammates a free attack of opportunity all for just one first level spell slot.
Whatever you feel the bard is lacking grab any spell you want with magical secrets.
I play a swords bard and I keep up in damage with the rogue and paladin. Not sure for how much longer as we are level 7. I have much for flexibility though.
So my suggestion to help your bard (full-caster) (please go lore bard!) and make it more combat oriented would be to start as a human to grab the feat magic initiate (warlock) or you could wait until 4th level and snag eldritch blast, prestidigitation, and hellish rebuke (as the 1st level spell option). Doing this will give you access to eldritch blast (one of the strongest damage cantrips and an excellent go to spell if you use your bonus action for a healing word) and hellish rebuke (which gives you a use for your reaction other than cutting words).
Not only that but going with Lore will give you 3 magical secret opportunities instead of 2 where you can snag those incredible spells you’re looking for whether for combat or otherwise!
But most times you’re looking to help your peers become more effective themselves (examples being like making your opponents controlled/no longer a threat, giving your allies advantage through faerie fire or even granted them some neat attacks of opportunity while dealing some nice damage with dissonant whispers).
My bard with no ranged weapons, and Vicious Mockery as the only spell they have that does damage.
Hello! I am just a relatively new D&D player, who also likes SimplePlanes and War Thunder.
My characters are:
Valor isn't really a melee class. It gets all martial weapons and medium armor and shield, but all it gets in the way of damage boosting is a second attack at level 6. Really you're taking Valor for the ability to get AC19 while still casting your Bard spells.
Swords is where the melee damage is, at least until you run out of bardic inspiration dice to add to your damage rolls (and before you get to level 14 where you can always use a D6 for your flourishes). However College of Swords just gets the basic Bard weapons plus scimitar, and medium armor without shields. You do get a couple of fighting styles though, I'd suggest dueling for +2 damage with a single weapon. Since you can only use a flourish once per turn there's little benefit to using two hand weapons, and of course you want a hand free for spell-casting.
One thing that can help Sword bard is one level in Hexblade. That gives you all martial weapons and shields, the ability to use your charisma stat with your primary melee weapon, and the Eldritch Blast cantrip. You could also take the Shield spell for a bit more protection.
It does seem that lore might be the way to go if I’m not trying to do too much, if any, melee. The 6th level magical secrets would be a good way to get more damage, or the feat that several have mentioned. Or both to maybe get more control options bards might not have access to in their spell list.
thanks for all the advice.
Also there are definitely other ways to contribute to combat other than damage. Bards are pretty good at making enemies whiff their attacks. Apply both Bane and Vicious Mockery to an opponent and watch as they bumble and fumble their attacks. Great for making a fool of your enemies. Heat Metal is widely regarded as one of the best Bard spells because they can't save against the damage or the Disadvantage, they can only save against the involuntary dropping of the item. If you apply it to a piece of armor that takes a whole minute to remove you have a source of repeatable damage every turn AND disadvantage on attacks.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
And don’t forget Enthrall. Spinning a good yarn for a minute so that your party can stealth kill the baddies without their companions noticing until it is too late is awesome.
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
The best you can do in the short-term is probably a bow. If I ever play a full bard (I am playing an MC warlock-bard atm, and damage is /not/ an issue for me), I'd probably pick the Levistus tiefling race so that I can throw some ray of frost when I don't have something else to do with my action. A lot of people are pretty enthused with vicious mockery, but imo it doesn't scale well. In a world where multi-attack exists, disadvantage on the next attack only doesn't scale well, nor does the d4 damage.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Ah yes, Vicious Mockery. If it was D6 damage and disadvantage on all attacks until the Bard's next turn it might actually be worthwhile.
However the idea of a cantrip doing a maximum of 16 damage at level 17 is just too pathetic to bother with.
A single level dip in Hexblade makes things so much better, and Hexblade/College of Swords harmonizes very well. Of course if you're not going to get to level 18 Bard for magical secrets then three levels for Pact of the Blade isn't a bad idea.
Except that it doesn't only do 16 points of damage, it is also disadvantage on an attack roll and it allows you to cast, say Healing Word to get a fallen comrade back up if needed. At range. Is it the best damage dealing cantrip out there? No. But it's not supposed to be, either.
Besides, at level 17 you have Power Word Kill which is basically Vicious Mockery taken to the extreme. ;)
Swords is over-rated. Valor giving the inspiration die to another character has a similar effect and more, allows the bard to maintain a better AC without an inspiration die cost, and allows for casting a spell on the same turn either is used. Swords flourishes are once and require the attack action to use. It's also possible to make a STR GWM valor bard because of the proficiencies but generally not common over DEX.
All bard colleges are good.
Direct damage isn't usually great but secrets can improve that; however, spells like dissonant whispers and compulsion trigger opportunity attacks for some hefty damage potential.
Build the bard to cover weaker areas the group needs covered. Bards can do a lot but not everything, and trying to be too many things in one build wears it too thin.
Adelberto, Sword 6/Hexblade 1, is a fairly decent fighter, helped (in no small part) by a +2 Longsword. Not as good as a dedicated Fighter, of course, but he is also a full spellcaster and that counts for a lot.
At higher levels where most monsters multi-attack, disadvantage on one attack is pretty meh, and the damage is just pathetic. Vicious Mockery is pretty overrated imo.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
At high levels you can use power word kill.