I was wondering, has anyone ever thought about, how come, that Clerics are the only casters that doesn't have a single cantrip, that requires an attack roll.? *EDIT* Oh sorry, forgot about bards, they also don't have any :/
Even though 1/3 of all their cantrips can cause damage, they all require a save, and not just any save, it is a Dex Save, a Wis Save and a Con Save 3 of the most tough saves in the game to overcome.
Have anyone thought about it, homebrewed something to add cleric cantrips, or do you just accept it as it is?
What target do you have in mind that Sacred Flame and Toll the Dead are insufficient for but one of the other spell attack cantrips will satisfy you? Both of those spells are better than, say, Fire Bolt, in the general case.
To take an example target, a stone giant has a +4 Wisdom save and is AC 17. Assuming the cleric is Wisdom 18 Proficiency 3, that's +7 to hit, so whatever the damage of the attack cantrip would be, it will deal 60/50/35% of that, depending on how much cover the giant is behind. Toll the Dead will have a save DC of 15, and hence will deal a flat 50% damage. Assuming Tier 2, that means Fire Bolt will deal 6.6/5.5/3.85 damage and Toll the Dead will deal a flat 6.5 damage. That's pretty good, especially since I deliberately picked a target whose Will save is better than its AC (it's very rare for Dex save and Wis save to be better than AC, which is why I used a Stone Giant, for whom it is true).
I feel better that I roll the attack, than I feel that my dm rolls the save. It has nothing to do with trust or anything, just the simple feeling of rolling the dice.
Besides, spells that require saves can't crit. so on "attack" spells, that is that slight 5% chance that the spell will crit on a nat 20.
I just accept it, but I definitely sympathize. If you roll and miss, it sucks. But if you don’t even get to roll and still “miss” it sucks more. Very unsatisfying. The only suggestion I have would be to bring it up when the appropriate time comes in the playtesting.
I was wondering, has anyone ever thought about, how come, that Clerics are the only casters that doesn't have a single cantrip, that requires an attack roll.? *EDIT* Oh sorry, forgot about bards, they also don't have any :/
Even though 1/3 of all their cantrips can cause damage, they all require a save, and not just any save, it is a Dex Save, a Wis Save and a Con Save 3 of the most tough saves in the game to overcome.
Have anyone thought about it, homebrewed something to add cleric cantrips, or do you just accept it as it is?
One option is you can just take an Arcana Domain cleric and get wizard attack cantrips.
I feel better that I roll the attack, than I feel that my dm rolls the save. It has nothing to do with trust or anything, just the simple feeling of rolling the dice.
Besides, spells that require saves can't crit. so on "attack" spells, that is that slight 5% chance that the spell will crit on a nat 20.
Also, attack rolls can benefit from things like Bless, Help, and Inspiration, which save spells cannot, so your ability to make a key attack succeed is more limited.
I have to agree that having some kind of attack cantrip would be nice for sure. Saves are, meh to go against at best and as you level, natural resistances, coupled with saves start to truly suck. This applies only to Clerics who are wanting or needing to be solid DPR, however, as moving to a support role generally put them (and Bards) in a spot where monster AC and Save means nada. You can have whatever AC and save bonus you want when I am giving my allies Haste, or Bless or some other such boost.
Certainly wouldn't hurt to have a cantrip or 2 with an attack roll for those end of day fights when you've burned most or all of your spell slots and still want to contribute to the fight.
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Clerics are also the only casters with access to Medium armor and decent weapons. Weapons are their attacks.
Don't underestimate the Barbarians, due to their access to cast some spells ( by using Wisdom as their spellcasting ability ), they gain also access to really good weapons too, and some decent armors ( including the spiked ones ).
Easy to forget I guess but attack rolls are often better since you can benefit from things that increase your roll. Those exist. Things that increase your DC are basically nonexistent outside of powerful magic items. And anything that decreases enemy saves will of couse...need to fail a save against first.
You could attack at advantage, too. That's another way to dramatically increase accuracy.
I'm not arguing save cantrips suck, they don't. They have their place. But not having access to an attack cantrip does suck. Especially on a class that basically demands you cast bless when the circumstancescall for it, such a great spell. That +1d4 to attacks is meaningless if you're sanctifying those flames or tolling those dead.
This is especially noticeable if you've ever played something like a divine soul sorcerer. They can buff up, take advantage of teamwork and be shooting cantrips with +d4 to hit and rolling at advantage. That's far more likely to land than the enemy just saving half the time.
I'd like both a ranged and melee attack Cantrip for Clerics. Personally, I'd rather have more melee attack spell actions, as the base Cleric is suppossed to be right up in the mix, fighting with their mace in one hand and faith in the other.
The lack of combat cantrips for clerics is a little boring as combat cantrips often form a significant part of your character as a caster. They are often the default way that you fight and are as significant a choice as what weapon you choose as a fighter while also being the most likely spells to get a big narrative description from the player as they're likely to be one of the first spells used. It's a big shame that all you'll ever get from a cleric is a bright light or toll of a bell from a cleric and I entirely understand why players would want something else. For example a nature cleric may want something that seems more natural than the flashy sacred flame or toll the dead spells but there's no real option on the cleric spell list.
The number of combat cantrips just needs to be broader in general.
I feel better that I roll the attack, than I feel that my dm rolls the save. It has nothing to do with trust or anything, just the simple feeling of rolling the dice.
Besides, spells that require saves can't crit. so on "attack" spells, that is that slight 5% chance that the spell will crit on a nat 20.
Late reply, but my DM makes us roll the creature's saving throws.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
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I was wondering, has anyone ever thought about, how come, that Clerics are the only casters that doesn't have a single cantrip, that requires an attack roll.?
*EDIT* Oh sorry, forgot about bards, they also don't have any :/
Even though 1/3 of all their cantrips can cause damage, they all require a save, and not just any save, it is a Dex Save, a Wis Save and a Con Save 3 of the most tough saves in the game to overcome.
Have anyone thought about it, homebrewed something to add cleric cantrips, or do you just accept it as it is?
What target do you have in mind that Sacred Flame and Toll the Dead are insufficient for but one of the other spell attack cantrips will satisfy you? Both of those spells are better than, say, Fire Bolt, in the general case.
To take an example target, a stone giant has a +4 Wisdom save and is AC 17. Assuming the cleric is Wisdom 18 Proficiency 3, that's +7 to hit, so whatever the damage of the attack cantrip would be, it will deal 60/50/35% of that, depending on how much cover the giant is behind. Toll the Dead will have a save DC of 15, and hence will deal a flat 50% damage. Assuming Tier 2, that means Fire Bolt will deal 6.6/5.5/3.85 damage and Toll the Dead will deal a flat 6.5 damage. That's pretty good, especially since I deliberately picked a target whose Will save is better than its AC (it's very rare for Dex save and Wis save to be better than AC, which is why I used a Stone Giant, for whom it is true).
I think it is mostly based on feeling.
I feel better that I roll the attack, than I feel that my dm rolls the save.
It has nothing to do with trust or anything, just the simple feeling of rolling the dice.
Besides, spells that require saves can't crit. so on "attack" spells, that is that slight 5% chance that the spell will crit on a nat 20.
I just accept it, but I definitely sympathize. If you roll and miss, it sucks. But if you don’t even get to roll and still “miss” it sucks more. Very unsatisfying.
The only suggestion I have would be to bring it up when the appropriate time comes in the playtesting.
Clerics are also the only casters with access to Medium armor and decent weapons. Weapons are their attacks.
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One option is you can just take an Arcana Domain cleric and get wizard attack cantrips.
Yeah yeah, sure subclasses and feats can overcome many things.
I was mostly wondering about it in the base class :)
Also, attack rolls can benefit from things like Bless, Help, and Inspiration, which save spells cannot, so your ability to make a key attack succeed is more limited.
I have to agree that having some kind of attack cantrip would be nice for sure. Saves are, meh to go against at best and as you level, natural resistances, coupled with saves start to truly suck. This applies only to Clerics who are wanting or needing to be solid DPR, however, as moving to a support role generally put them (and Bards) in a spot where monster AC and Save means nada. You can have whatever AC and save bonus you want when I am giving my allies Haste, or Bless or some other such boost.
Certainly wouldn't hurt to have a cantrip or 2 with an attack roll for those end of day fights when you've burned most or all of your spell slots and still want to contribute to the fight.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Don't underestimate the Barbarians, due to their access to cast some spells ( by using Wisdom as their spellcasting ability ), they gain also access to really good weapons too, and some decent armors ( including the spiked ones ).
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
Easy to forget I guess but attack rolls are often better since you can benefit from things that increase your roll. Those exist. Things that increase your DC are basically nonexistent outside of powerful magic items. And anything that decreases enemy saves will of couse...need to fail a save against first.
You could attack at advantage, too. That's another way to dramatically increase accuracy.
I'm not arguing save cantrips suck, they don't. They have their place. But not having access to an attack cantrip does suck. Especially on a class that basically demands you cast bless when the circumstancescall for it, such a great spell. That +1d4 to attacks is meaningless if you're sanctifying those flames or tolling those dead.
This is especially noticeable if you've ever played something like a divine soul sorcerer. They can buff up, take advantage of teamwork and be shooting cantrips with +d4 to hit and rolling at advantage. That's far more likely to land than the enemy just saving half the time.
I got quotes!
I'd like both a ranged and melee attack Cantrip for Clerics. Personally, I'd rather have more melee attack spell actions, as the base Cleric is suppossed to be right up in the mix, fighting with their mace in one hand and faith in the other.
The lack of combat cantrips for clerics is a little boring as combat cantrips often form a significant part of your character as a caster. They are often the default way that you fight and are as significant a choice as what weapon you choose as a fighter while also being the most likely spells to get a big narrative description from the player as they're likely to be one of the first spells used. It's a big shame that all you'll ever get from a cleric is a bright light or toll of a bell from a cleric and I entirely understand why players would want something else. For example a nature cleric may want something that seems more natural than the flashy sacred flame or toll the dead spells but there's no real option on the cleric spell list.
The number of combat cantrips just needs to be broader in general.
Yeah I just rolled a Cleric in a new campaign we are starting.
Death Domain, Now I got Chill Touch as a cantrip, that is at least something :)
Late reply, but my DM makes us roll the creature's saving throws.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha