Your answer sounds right but I am still conflicted. Mearls & Crawford have both iterated on repeat occasions that a specific rule overrides a general rule. The general rule of combat is a 20 is an automatic hit but wouldn't the specific rule of a spell deliberately designed to modify a roll supercede?
The Bane spell is a modifier like your Ability Mod and Proficiency Bonus.
I see it as Order of Operations. roll the die, if it's a 1 or 20, you don't even add/subtract and modifiers as the outcome is already determined. If you roll a 2-19, then you add/subtract modifiers to determine the outcome.
The rule for critical hit only cares about the d20 roll. It doesn't care about any modifiers. In fact it literally says:
If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC. This is called a critical hit, which is explained later in this chapter.
One rule which does override this is the Champion's ability.
Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
There are a couple exceptions if someone rolls a nat 20 that doesn’t result in a crit. My favorite is the Grave Cleric 6th level ability, Sentinel at Death’s Door
At 6th level, you gain the ability to impede death’s progress. As a reaction when you or a creature you can see within 30 feet of you suffers a critical hit, you can turn that hit into a normal hit. Any effects triggered by a critical hit are canceled. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
A couple others I can think of is the School of Divination’s Portent ability and the Lucky feat.
Just as Bless can't turn an attack roll into a crit, Bane can't undo a crit. The d4 is simply a modifier to the base roll, and it's the 20 on the base roll that determines a crit, outside of specific rules that change the crit requirements(melee attack against an unconscious target, Assassinate, Adamantine armor, etc).
The responses in this thread serve to show the occasional differences between a critical hit and an auto-hit on natural 20. Most of the time, they happen together, but not always, as shown above.
in the event that a 20 is rolled by an attacker under the effects of the bane spell, the hit is automatic and it is a critical, exceptions notwithstanding. the bane die is still rolled but in this case the result of the d4 is subtracted from the total damage.
this maintains the general rule for crits but also accounts for a spell that is meant to be a detriment to attackers, cause it sucks when you pick the right spell... but there it is made inefficient.
Its a good question since the working of the bane says its retracts the number from the roll itself and is therefore not a modifier to the Roll. All other changes are texted differently and interprettet as a modifier to an existing roll.
that Said, natural 20 is also specific written as critical, so it will be up to the DM/GM to decide.
Most aknowledged would be to apply the critical roll, but if you strictly go for the wording of bane spell the crit was never a crit.
Its a good question since the working of the bane says its retracts the number from the roll itself and is therefore not a modifier to the Roll. All other changes are texted differently and interprettet as a modifier to an existing roll.
that Said, natural 20 is also specific written as critical, so it will be up to the DM/GM to decide.
Most aknowledged would be to apply the critical roll, but if you strictly go for the wording of bane spell the crit was never a crit.
“D20” and “Attack” rolls are distinct in 5e. Bane changes the “Attack” roll and therefore is a modifier like attributes or proficiency. The critical hit rule concerns a “D20” roll which is different. Therefore it is a critical before bane attempts to modify it. Review the PHB rules for “Making an attack” and the distinction between the two are clear.
I actually dont disagree with you on the understanding of it.
But bane spells wordings are different than any other modifying effects.
Bane specific States its removed from the Roll itself “subtract the number rolled from the attack roll” where the word “rolled from” (from) is the word that based on the text changes the entire Way it is written to be working. Cause the text directly States that this is not a modifier to a Roll, but a change of the roll itself.
And since its a change of the roll, its not a modifier which is added or subtracted from the attack results, lets dive into for example bardic inspiration “can roll the die and add the number rolled to one ability check, attack roll, or saving throw it makes”
its clear that the text is different where in all other types of effects that changes the results its not changing the Roll made, where Bane directly States its changing the roll from, which makes it a part of the actual Roll based on the text read and understood as the wording States it… but i agree the intention must be its a modifier and if the intention is that, then the understanding of the text should be understood in that posture.
So even if I agree with you, i do aknowledge that Bane is a spell that could be understood differently due to the written words of the effect.
I actually dont disagree with you on the understanding of it.
But bane spells wordings are different than any other modifying effects.
Bane specific States its removed from the Roll itself “subtract the number rolled from the attack roll” where the word “rolled from” (from) is the word that based on the text changes the entire Way it is written to be working. Cause the text directly States that this is not a modifier to a Roll, but a change of the roll itself.
And since its a change of the roll, its not a modifier which is added or subtracted from the attack results, lets dive into for example bardic inspiration “can roll the die and add the number rolled to one ability check, attack roll, or saving throw it makes”
its clear that the text is different where in all other types of effects that changes the results its not changing the Roll made, where Bane directly States its changing the roll from, which makes it a part of the actual Roll based on the text read and understood as the wording States it… but i agree the intention must be its a modifier and if the intention is that, then the understanding of the text should be understood in that posture.
So even if I agree with you, i do aknowledge that Bane is a spell that could be understood differently due to the written words of the effect.
That's just how the English language works. The wording "subtract to" does not make much sense therefore they use the wording "subtract from". The reverse is also true in the case that the wording "add from" makes no sense thus the wording "add to" is used.
I actually dont disagree with you on the understanding of it.
But bane spells wordings are different than any other modifying effects.
Bane specific States its removed from the Roll itself “subtract the number rolled from the attack roll” where the word “rolled from” (from) is the word that based on the text changes the entire Way it is written to be working. Cause the text directly States that this is not a modifier to a Roll, but a change of the roll itself.
And since its a change of the roll, its not a modifier which is added or subtracted from the attack results, lets dive into for example bardic inspiration “can roll the die and add the number rolled to one ability check, attack roll, or saving throw it makes”
its clear that the text is different where in all other types of effects that changes the results its not changing the Roll made, where Bane directly States its changing the roll from, which makes it a part of the actual Roll based on the text read and understood as the wording States it… but i agree the intention must be its a modifier and if the intention is that, then the understanding of the text should be understood in that posture.
So even if I agree with you, i do aknowledge that Bane is a spell that could be understood differently due to the written words of the effect.
No Bane isn’t stated differently. In both cases of Bardic Inspiration and Bane, they specify that they affect the “attack roll” not the D20 roll. That’s the key point. Think of the D20 roll as a “General” roll vs “Ability Check,” “Attack Roll,” and “Saving Throw” are specific rolls. These abilities change the specific roll, not the General roll. Critical hits change the general roll of the attack which means the specific rule of a critical alters the outcome before bane can even enter into the roll equation.
Its the word “from” that indeed makes a huge grammatical difference, its just a fact. But again, i do believe it was intented as a modifier, but the wording is actually different and the gramma would mean its changing the roll itself and not a modifier to the actual Roll.
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If the Bane spell subtracts a d4 off an enemy's roll... What about a natural 20? Does that supersede?
Natural 20 - a d4 roll of 4 and you're down to a 16 and may even miss with your natural roll...
Which rule takes precedence? Any takers?
No. A 20 on the d20 (for attacks) is an automatic hit regardless of any modifiers aside from disadvantage (or other forms of forced reroll).
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Your answer sounds right but I am still conflicted. Mearls & Crawford have both iterated on repeat occasions that a specific rule overrides a general rule. The general rule of combat is a 20 is an automatic hit but wouldn't the specific rule of a spell deliberately designed to modify a roll supercede?
I don't see it as conflicting with that rule.
The Bane spell is a modifier like your Ability Mod and Proficiency Bonus.
I see it as Order of Operations.
roll the die, if it's a 1 or 20, you don't even add/subtract and modifiers as the outcome is already determined.
If you roll a 2-19, then you add/subtract modifiers to determine the outcome.
The rule for critical hit only cares about the d20 roll. It doesn't care about any modifiers. In fact it literally says:
One rule which does override this is the Champion's ability.
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There are a couple exceptions if someone rolls a nat 20 that doesn’t result in a crit. My favorite is the Grave Cleric 6th level ability, Sentinel at Death’s Door
At 6th level, you gain the ability to impede death’s progress. As a reaction when you or a creature you can see within 30 feet of you suffers a critical hit, you can turn that hit into a normal hit. Any effects triggered by a critical hit are canceled. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
A couple others I can think of is the School of Divination’s Portent ability and the Lucky feat.
Adamantine armor also nullifies critical hits as does one of the circle features of Circle of Spores.
Just as Bless can't turn an attack roll into a crit, Bane can't undo a crit. The d4 is simply a modifier to the base roll, and it's the 20 on the base roll that determines a crit, outside of specific rules that change the crit requirements(melee attack against an unconscious target, Assassinate, Adamantine armor, etc).
The responses in this thread serve to show the occasional differences between a critical hit and an auto-hit on natural 20. Most of the time, they happen together, but not always, as shown above.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
if I may propose an house rule:
in the event that a 20 is rolled by an attacker under the effects of the bane spell, the hit is automatic and it is a critical, exceptions notwithstanding. the bane die is still rolled but in this case the result of the d4 is subtracted from the total damage.
this maintains the general rule for crits but also accounts for a spell that is meant to be a detriment to attackers, cause it sucks when you pick the right spell... but there it is made inefficient.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
Its a good question since the working of the bane says its retracts the number from the roll itself and is therefore not a modifier to the Roll. All other changes are texted differently and interprettet as a modifier to an existing roll.
that Said, natural 20 is also specific written as critical, so it will be up to the DM/GM to decide.
Most aknowledged would be to apply the critical roll, but if you strictly go for the wording of bane spell the crit was never a crit.
“D20” and “Attack” rolls are distinct in 5e. Bane changes the “Attack” roll and therefore is a modifier like attributes or proficiency. The critical hit rule concerns a “D20” roll which is different. Therefore it is a critical before bane attempts to modify it. Review the PHB rules for “Making an attack” and the distinction between the two are clear.
I actually dont disagree with you on the understanding of it.
But bane spells wordings are different than any other modifying effects.
Bane specific States its removed from the Roll itself “subtract the number rolled from the attack roll” where the word “rolled from” (from) is the word that based on the text changes the entire Way it is written to be working. Cause the text directly States that this is not a modifier to a Roll, but a change of the roll itself.
And since its a change of the roll, its not a modifier which is added or subtracted from the attack results, lets dive into for example bardic inspiration “can roll the die and add the number rolled to one ability check, attack roll, or saving throw it makes”
its clear that the text is different where in all other types of effects that changes the results its not changing the Roll made, where Bane directly States its changing the roll from, which makes it a part of the actual Roll based on the text read and understood as the wording States it… but i agree the intention must be its a modifier and if the intention is that, then the understanding of the text should be understood in that posture.
So even if I agree with you, i do aknowledge that Bane is a spell that could be understood differently due to the written words of the effect.
That's just how the English language works. The wording "subtract to" does not make much sense therefore they use the wording "subtract from". The reverse is also true in the case that the wording "add from" makes no sense thus the wording "add to" is used.
No Bane isn’t stated differently. In both cases of Bardic Inspiration and Bane, they specify that they affect the “attack roll” not the D20 roll. That’s the key point. Think of the D20 roll as a “General” roll vs “Ability Check,” “Attack Roll,” and “Saving Throw” are specific rolls. These abilities change the specific roll, not the General roll. Critical hits change the general roll of the attack which means the specific rule of a critical alters the outcome before bane can even enter into the roll equation.
Its the word “from” that indeed makes a huge grammatical difference, its just a fact. But again, i do believe it was intented as a modifier, but the wording is actually different and the gramma would mean its changing the roll itself and not a modifier to the actual Roll.