I’ve recently been told I am wrong about this combo simply because I don’t main the Druid class.
Here’s how it’s being used currently;
The Druid enters Chalice Form and casts Healing Spirit on the board. The Druid then uses the Healing Spirit to restore hit points to however many characters it can during that turn, while applying the Chalice Form’s extra healing to each character.
The Druid then proceeds to repeat this healing plus the Chalice Form extra healing on each of their subsequent turns.
From what I understand of the wording of Chalice Form, you can only apply the extra healing to a spell once as it is cast to restore hit points. The wording is as follows, “Whenever you cast a spell using a spell slot that restores hit points to a creature, you or another creature within 30 feet of you can regain hit points equal to 1d8 + your Wisdom modifier.”
For the Druid to constantly use the Chalice effect the way they are currently using it, should the wording instead be, “Whenever a spell you cast … restores hit points”?
It does appear to be true that you can only restore those extra hit points once - when casting the spell - and not every time it heals, so I think you're correct.
That said, I'm not sure you understand how Healing Spirit works. The Druid cannot heal multiple people on the Druid's turn; the only person they could heal with it on their turn is themselves, unless they can force someone else to move into it. A creature has to move into the healing spirit - or start its turn on it - to get the healing, not just have the spirit pass over them.
Everything you mentioned are all points I’ve tried to make but I keep getting shot down by the same defensive argument from the player acting the way I described, “Other DMs have allowed it, and I play druid so I should know”.
Actually I don't think you can apply the bonus at all to Healing Spirit, as it doesn't actually heal as part of casting the spell, the healing is triggered by moving into or starting within the area of the healing spirit.
This is the same situation you'll get with similar effects such as an Alchemist's Alchemical Savant, or a Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer's Elemental Affinity and similar abilities; the spell itself has to immediately heal or deal damage as you cast it in order to apply for these, any spell that sets up a condition by which you can heal/damage later doesn't apply, as it's not casting the spell that did it.
All of these features are intended for instantaneous effects like Cure Wounds etc. (or suitable damaging spells for the damaging features).
"Whenever you cast a spell using a spell slot that restores hit points to a creature" Healing Spirit is a spell that you cast using a spell slot that can restore hit points to a creature.
Healing spirit certainly can restore hit points, but "can restore hit points" and "restores hit points" are not the same thing. It's really the DM's call how to interpret it.
Is healing spirit on the approved list of spells that Discipe of Life is supposed to interact with? I know that goodberry is on that list. Even though I personally disagree with that, Crawford says it counts as a “healing spell.” Personally I would think healing spirit should count more than goodberry.
You realize they have basically the same wording, right? Yet you say it works for one but shouldn't for the other?
Disciple of life: Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature, the creature regains additional hit points equal to 2 + the spell’s level. Chalice: Whenever you cast a spell using a spell slot that restores hit points to a creature, you or another creature within 30 feet of you can regain hit points equal to 1d8 + your Wisdom modifier.
One is "use" and the other is "cast," so that difference means that Chalice should only trigger when Healing Spirit is cast, rather than when it's used. But if your argument is "healing spirit is not a spell that restores hit points to a creature," I don't know what to tell you, because it most certainly is.
"Whenever you cast a spell using a spell slot that restores hit points to a creature" Healing Spirit is a spell that you cast using a spell slot that can restore hit points to a creature.
Casting the spell doesn't restore the hit points, it's the later effect of being in the same space as the spirit.
Put another way, Cast a Spell is an action; anything that happens outside of that action is not part of casting the spell. It might be a part of the spell's ongoing effect(s), but it was not part of the casting.
The distinction is clear when you look at Cure Wounds, which immediately heals whenever you cast it.
Is healing spirit on the approved list of spells that Discipe of Life is supposed to interact with? I know that goodberry is on that list. Even though I personally disagree with that, Crawford says it counts as a “healing spell.” Personally I would think healing spirit should count more than goodberry.
Weird, I hadn't even noticed Disciple of Life was worded slightly differently. The word "use" seems like it should include Healing Spirit as you actually decide when it does the healing, but Goodberry is up to whoever you give it to, so arguablly it would only work if you eat one yourself (as you need to be the one using it)?
I really do wish WotC had included either "during an action or bonus action" or "anytime a spell you cast causes healing" or such to make these types of rules much clearer.
While the Chalice Form and Disciple of Life abilities may be similar, I think it's reasonable that Chalice Form, an optional form you can choose to take, isn't as strong as a Cleric sub-class that's basically built to be the best healer in the game.
While the Chalice Form and Disciple of Life abilities may be similar, I think it's reasonable that Chalice Form, an optional form you can choose to take, isn't as strong as a Cleric sub-class that's basically built to be the best healer in the game.
Disciple of Life and Starry Form are both subclass features - main ones in fact - that you get as soon as you take the subclass. Dunno why you'd put Disciple of Life on a pedestal above any other subclass features.
Anyway, I just think it's contradictory to allow it to work with one and not the other, and if there's one thing I can't stand in my rules, it's contradictions. However you want to rule it, both should work (or not work) the same way.
While the Chalice Form and Disciple of Life abilities may be similar, I think it's reasonable that Chalice Form, an optional form you can choose to take, isn't as strong as a Cleric sub-class that's basically built to be the best healer in the game.
Disciple of Life and Starry Form are both subclass features - main ones in fact - that you get as soon as you take the subclass. Dunno why you'd put Disciple of Life on a pedestal above any other subclass features.
Because Chalice Form is one of several options, Disciple of Life is Life Domain's whole thing; there's usually a cost for flexibility versus specialisation.
Anyway, I just think it's contradictory to allow it to work with one and not the other, and if there's one thing I can't stand in my rules, it's contradictions. However you want to rule it, both should work (or not work) the same way.
It's not a contradiction as they're worded differently; one is tied to casting the spell, the other is tied to using it, some spells are used only when they're cast, others are used after casting them.
You realize they have basically the same wording, right? Yet you say it works for one but shouldn't for the other?... One is "use" and the other is "cast," so that difference means that Chalice should only trigger when Healing Spirit is cast, rather than when it's used.
First off, I didn't say one works and one doesn't. I said it's up to the DM because the language is imprecise. Using and casting are significantly different verbs.
But if your argument is "healing spirit is not a spell that restores hit points to a creature," I don't know what to tell you, because it most certainly is.
Okay. Cast healing spirit in an empty space and wait until the spell expires. Did it restore hit points? Nope. Healing spirit is certainly a spell that *can* restore hit points, but whether it does or not is circumstantial. Technically you can cast Cure Wounds on an undead or construct and fail to restore hit points. Would that proc the Chalice feature? IDK. There's an argument that it wouldn't.
As a DM I don't think I would be this pedantic, and I would allow Chalice to work with any spell that talks about restoring hit points to a creature, as long as a spell slot is used. But that's me. If someone else wants to interpret "when you cast a spell" to mean in the moment that the spell is cast.. And they want to interpret "restores hit points" to mean that it literally produces that effect in the game (i.e. such that you can point to the creature and say how many hit points were restored)... well, then Chalice won't work with Healing Spirit for them AND they aren't wrong either.
The way I personally look at it is that goodberry doesn’t “restore HP,” it just creates berries. The berries most certainly restore an HP, but the spell itself doesn’t. One could argue that Healing Spirit also doesn’t restore any HP, it summons a spirit, and that the spirit restores HP, but not the spell. Kinda the same way technically spirit guardians doesn’t do damage, it creates an aura. Which is why two castings of that spell in the same area are subject to the rules governing stacking of spell effects.
Everything you mentioned are all points I’ve tried to make but I keep getting shot down by the same defensive argument from the player acting the way I described, “Other DMs have allowed it, and I play druid so I should know”.
First off, the answer is: "I am not other DMs." Your table, your rules. How other DMs do things is completely irrelevant.
For what it's worth, it sounds like you have it right, RAW. Chalice healing is only applicable upon the casting of a spell. So unless the recipient of the healing happens to share the druid's initiative, this spell is useless for Chalice purposes. (Also, both Starry Form and Healing Spirit are bonus actions, so I assume Chalice happens on a previous turn. Just wanted to point that out.) Chalice is intended to boost single-round healing spells, and the subclass is already OP as it is. Allowing Chalice healing for Healing Spirit is 100% broken in combat.
Also...there is a range limit for Chalice healing. Healing Spirit has a range of 60ft. Chalice is only 30ft. Depending on where the druid puts the spell, it might be a moot point anyway.
Credentials: I play a level 7 Stars druid who is a healer main.
Arguing that the spell you cast that restored hit points isn't casting a spell that restores hit points seems like some pretty tortured linguistic gymnastics.
Either way it wouldn't apply every turn like the OP's friend suggests, though.
Kind of like "if a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound"...
If a healing spirit is cast in an empty space, does it restore hit points? I'm inclined to go based on the spell's general functionality rather than a practical approach. But then you think about other spells like Vampiric Touch. Would casting that allow you to heal with the chalice feature if the attack misses? Revivify? /shrug
If a healing spirit is cast in an empty space, does it restore hit points?
It doesn't restore hitpoints in an occupied space either, at least not on the turn you cast it, as it's triggered only when a creature starts its turn in the same space, or moves into the space for the first time in a turn (technically it can do that during other character's turns, but summoning the spirit in its space wouldn't count as the target creature didn't move).
Thing is, this isn't the first feature to function this way; as mentioned there are similar features, like Alchemist's Alchemical Savant, or Draconic Sorcerer's Elemental Affinity, both of which apply on cast; as far as I can find there's been no sage advice overruling the "cast means cast" interpretation which seems like the correct RAW reading. Considering the Draconic Sorcerer has been around since the PHB I think we can assume if it were going to be errata'd or FAQ'd it would have been by now, as there are several cast first, damage later spells it doesn't work for, and this seems to be by design.
Of course, whether a DM wants to be more lenient or not is up to them; some might just allow a one off for the first heal and that would probably be fine; the key thing is that for Chalice Form the bonus should definitely never apply more than once per spell, otherwise it's being given a fairly large boost.
Everything you mentioned are all points I’ve tried to make but I keep getting shot down by the same defensive argument from the player acting the way I described, “Other DMs have allowed it, and I play druid so I should know”.
First off, the answer is: "I am not other DMs." Your table, your rules. How other DMs do things is completely irrelevant.
Also: "Well I'm the DM, and my rule is final. If you disagree and wish to continue to disrespect me, then there's the door."
I’ve recently been told I am wrong about this combo simply because I don’t main the Druid class.
Here’s how it’s being used currently;
The Druid enters Chalice Form and casts Healing Spirit on the board. The Druid then uses the Healing Spirit to restore hit points to however many characters it can during that turn, while applying the Chalice Form’s extra healing to each character.
The Druid then proceeds to repeat this healing plus the Chalice Form extra healing on each of their subsequent turns.
From what I understand of the wording of Chalice Form, you can only apply the extra healing to a spell once as it is cast to restore hit points. The wording is as follows, “Whenever you cast a spell using a spell slot that restores hit points to a creature, you or another creature within 30 feet of you can regain hit points equal to 1d8 + your Wisdom modifier.”
For the Druid to constantly use the Chalice effect the way they are currently using it, should the wording instead be, “Whenever a spell you cast … restores hit points”?
Or am I just wrong because I don’t main Druid?
It does appear to be true that you can only restore those extra hit points once - when casting the spell - and not every time it heals, so I think you're correct.
That said, I'm not sure you understand how Healing Spirit works. The Druid cannot heal multiple people on the Druid's turn; the only person they could heal with it on their turn is themselves, unless they can force someone else to move into it. A creature has to move into the healing spirit - or start its turn on it - to get the healing, not just have the spirit pass over them.
Everything you mentioned are all points I’ve tried to make but I keep getting shot down by the same defensive argument from the player acting the way I described, “Other DMs have allowed it, and I play druid so I should know”.
Actually I don't think you can apply the bonus at all to Healing Spirit, as it doesn't actually heal as part of casting the spell, the healing is triggered by moving into or starting within the area of the healing spirit.
This is the same situation you'll get with similar effects such as an Alchemist's Alchemical Savant, or a Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer's Elemental Affinity and similar abilities; the spell itself has to immediately heal or deal damage as you cast it in order to apply for these, any spell that sets up a condition by which you can heal/damage later doesn't apply, as it's not casting the spell that did it.
All of these features are intended for instantaneous effects like Cure Wounds etc. (or suitable damaging spells for the damaging features).
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"Whenever you cast a spell using a spell slot that restores hit points to a creature"
Healing Spirit is a spell that you cast using a spell slot that can restore hit points to a creature.
Healing spirit certainly can restore hit points, but "can restore hit points" and "restores hit points" are not the same thing. It's really the DM's call how to interpret it.
Is healing spirit on the approved list of spells that Discipe of Life is supposed to interact with? I know that goodberry is on that list. Even though I personally disagree with that, Crawford says it counts as a “healing spell.” Personally I would think healing spirit should count more than goodberry.
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Healing Spirit does work for disciple of life.
You realize they have basically the same wording, right? Yet you say it works for one but shouldn't for the other?
Disciple of life: Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature, the creature regains additional hit points equal to 2 + the spell’s level.
Chalice: Whenever you cast a spell using a spell slot that restores hit points to a creature, you or another creature within 30 feet of you can regain hit points equal to 1d8 + your Wisdom modifier.
One is "use" and the other is "cast," so that difference means that Chalice should only trigger when Healing Spirit is cast, rather than when it's used. But if your argument is "healing spirit is not a spell that restores hit points to a creature," I don't know what to tell you, because it most certainly is.
Casting the spell doesn't restore the hit points, it's the later effect of being in the same space as the spirit.
Put another way, Cast a Spell is an action; anything that happens outside of that action is not part of casting the spell. It might be a part of the spell's ongoing effect(s), but it was not part of the casting.
The distinction is clear when you look at Cure Wounds, which immediately heals whenever you cast it.
Weird, I hadn't even noticed Disciple of Life was worded slightly differently. The word "use" seems like it should include Healing Spirit as you actually decide when it does the healing, but Goodberry is up to whoever you give it to, so arguablly it would only work if you eat one yourself (as you need to be the one using it)?
I really do wish WotC had included either "during an action or bonus action" or "anytime a spell you cast causes healing" or such to make these types of rules much clearer.
While the Chalice Form and Disciple of Life abilities may be similar, I think it's reasonable that Chalice Form, an optional form you can choose to take, isn't as strong as a Cleric sub-class that's basically built to be the best healer in the game.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
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Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Disciple of Life and Starry Form are both subclass features - main ones in fact - that you get as soon as you take the subclass. Dunno why you'd put Disciple of Life on a pedestal above any other subclass features.
Anyway, I just think it's contradictory to allow it to work with one and not the other, and if there's one thing I can't stand in my rules, it's contradictions. However you want to rule it, both should work (or not work) the same way.
Because Chalice Form is one of several options, Disciple of Life is Life Domain's whole thing; there's usually a cost for flexibility versus specialisation.
It's not a contradiction as they're worded differently; one is tied to casting the spell, the other is tied to using it, some spells are used only when they're cast, others are used after casting them.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
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Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
First off, I didn't say one works and one doesn't. I said it's up to the DM because the language is imprecise. Using and casting are significantly different verbs.
Okay. Cast healing spirit in an empty space and wait until the spell expires. Did it restore hit points? Nope. Healing spirit is certainly a spell that *can* restore hit points, but whether it does or not is circumstantial. Technically you can cast Cure Wounds on an undead or construct and fail to restore hit points. Would that proc the Chalice feature? IDK. There's an argument that it wouldn't.
As a DM I don't think I would be this pedantic, and I would allow Chalice to work with any spell that talks about restoring hit points to a creature, as long as a spell slot is used. But that's me. If someone else wants to interpret "when you cast a spell" to mean in the moment that the spell is cast.. And they want to interpret "restores hit points" to mean that it literally produces that effect in the game (i.e. such that you can point to the creature and say how many hit points were restored)... well, then Chalice won't work with Healing Spirit for them AND they aren't wrong either.
The way I personally look at it is that goodberry doesn’t “restore HP,” it just creates berries. The berries most certainly restore an HP, but the spell itself doesn’t. One could argue that Healing Spirit also doesn’t restore any HP, it summons a spirit, and that the spirit restores HP, but not the spell. Kinda the same way technically spirit guardians doesn’t do damage, it creates an aura. Which is why two castings of that spell in the same area are subject to the rules governing stacking of spell effects.
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First off, the answer is: "I am not other DMs." Your table, your rules. How other DMs do things is completely irrelevant.
For what it's worth, it sounds like you have it right, RAW. Chalice healing is only applicable upon the casting of a spell. So unless the recipient of the healing happens to share the druid's initiative, this spell is useless for Chalice purposes. (Also, both Starry Form and Healing Spirit are bonus actions, so I assume Chalice happens on a previous turn. Just wanted to point that out.) Chalice is intended to boost single-round healing spells, and the subclass is already OP as it is. Allowing Chalice healing for Healing Spirit is 100% broken in combat.
Also...there is a range limit for Chalice healing. Healing Spirit has a range of 60ft. Chalice is only 30ft. Depending on where the druid puts the spell, it might be a moot point anyway.
Credentials: I play a level 7 Stars druid who is a healer main.
Arguing that the spell you cast that restored hit points isn't casting a spell that restores hit points seems like some pretty tortured linguistic gymnastics.
Either way it wouldn't apply every turn like the OP's friend suggests, though.
Kind of like "if a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound"...
If a healing spirit is cast in an empty space, does it restore hit points? I'm inclined to go based on the spell's general functionality rather than a practical approach. But then you think about other spells like Vampiric Touch. Would casting that allow you to heal with the chalice feature if the attack misses? Revivify? /shrug
It doesn't restore hitpoints in an occupied space either, at least not on the turn you cast it, as it's triggered only when a creature starts its turn in the same space, or moves into the space for the first time in a turn (technically it can do that during other character's turns, but summoning the spirit in its space wouldn't count as the target creature didn't move).
Thing is, this isn't the first feature to function this way; as mentioned there are similar features, like Alchemist's Alchemical Savant, or Draconic Sorcerer's Elemental Affinity, both of which apply on cast; as far as I can find there's been no sage advice overruling the "cast means cast" interpretation which seems like the correct RAW reading. Considering the Draconic Sorcerer has been around since the PHB I think we can assume if it were going to be errata'd or FAQ'd it would have been by now, as there are several cast first, damage later spells it doesn't work for, and this seems to be by design.
Of course, whether a DM wants to be more lenient or not is up to them; some might just allow a one off for the first heal and that would probably be fine; the key thing is that for Chalice Form the bonus should definitely never apply more than once per spell, otherwise it's being given a fairly large boost.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Also: "Well I'm the DM, and my rule is final. If you disagree and wish to continue to disrespect me, then there's the door."