If a Druid can shapechange into a venomous creature., could the Druid "milk" itself for the venom and utilize poisoned weapons later on?
What kind of restrictions/limits would one put on this?
Take for example a Druid (Moon or otherwise) can turn into a Giant Poisonous Snake (p327 MM) (CR:1/4) whose venom has the exact same effect a Serpent Venom (p258 DMG). That venom is supposed to cost 200 gp.
I would say you could extract the venom once each time you wildshape into a snake, leaving you venomless for the duration of your wildshape. I would say it takes multiple "sessions" to actually produce an entire vial of poison usable on a weapon, judging that the snake would need less venom for the same amount of damage seeing as how its natural delivery method is more efficient.
Seems super 'gamey' and doubt any actual ingame Druid would think of doing this... But my answer (if I were the DM) would be the same as when people try to do the same type of things with summoned beasts. No, because the magic dissipates once the spell ends.
I have a few players who are interested in doing such a thing. For me it all depends on what they are trying to "milk". Some creatures produce venom faster than others. If a spider can do poison damage every time they bite then why bother limiting them while in that shape? Aside from capping how much they are able to harvest limiting them otherwise would more than likely feel like punishing them for being creative. Anyway poisons that are more useful would come from monstrosities and aberrations that a druid wouldn't normally be able to turn into.
If this is the case, can you also turn into a chicken, lay some eggs then transform back and cook and eat them. Isn't that the creepiest most horrifying idea on the planet!
If this is the case, can you also turn into a chicken, lay some eggs then transform back and cook and eat them. Isn't that the creepiest most horrifying idea on the planet!
Maybe that's how my druid scavenges enough food for the party every night?
I had a similar situation and I ruled that the venom was part of the wildshaped druid form so, when the druid transformed back to their caster form, the venom disappeared.
I would ask the DM. Different DMs would react in different ways. Some might think it's creative and go along with it, while some may just make the venom dissappear once you change back.
If you’re a player asking or reading, do a little research and ask the DM with a well documented case and see what happens. Do not argue with the decision! There is a fine line between arguing and debating so just be careful not to cross it.
If you’re a DM, think about it research then decide. If you’re asked on the spot before you can research tell them you’ll follow the rule of cool (allow it for now because awesome) but it might not be a permanent thing.
Why not? As I've said time and time again, things only break a game if you let them.
Set what you feel are reasonable guidelines: Extracting the venom can only be done once per day/wild shape, and creates X amount of venom. Maybe they can only get the effects of [equipment]Poison, Basic[/equpment], which only adds 1D4 per hit and lasts 1 minute. Maybe the venom loses its potency after 48 hours, so they can't stockpile it. If they start abusing it, throw something with poison immunity (extremely common).
Also, if they're trying to make money off this stuff, maybe they can only find very specific buyers (most "good" people don't want/need poisons) and if they get caught selling it they have to deal with the town guard. The price is now determined by how difficult it is to buy/sell and less about strict supply problems.
If you're looking for a reason to prohibit this you can also go the "it's magic, and magic doesn't work that way" like people have suggested below.
Keep in mind that in order to be milked, a creature must be incapacitated or dead, and you automatically revert if you fall unconscious (or die). So for this to have any hope of working by RAW, you'd have to be incapacitated, stunned, or paralyzed, without being unconscious, for 1d6 minutes. The ONLY spell with a greater than 1 minute duration which would possibly do the trick is "Feign Death", and the concept that a status which is "indistinguishable from death" does not trigger automatic reversion on a creature which automatically reverts upon death, is a dubious one at best.
So if you want this to work, and be RAW, and not utter houseruling and a complete change as to the poison rules, you'd need to provide some way for the Druid to be incapacitated or dead but not revert for 1d6 minutes+ which was itself compliant with RAW, and I don't see any possible way of doing that.
Read this description on how snake venom is collected.
It's likely that a similar process could be used for spiders/ect and that the reason they are knocked out in lab settings is because it's easier to perform the task with unwilling spiders unconscious. There's no reason to believe that being unconscious is a part of the process otherwise.
Read this description on how snake venom is collected.
It's likely that a similar process could be used for spiders/ect and that the reason they are knocked out in lab settings is because it's easier to perform the task with unwilling spiders unconscious. There's no reason to believe that being unconscious is a part of the process otherwise.
I think that because that's how poison harvesting works in 5e D&D. DMG pg 258. I'm not saying that's how it works in real life at all. It's not. Using real life rules you could likely milk a giant snake of venom daily for multiple doses (perhaps as much as a dozen) each time, without too much muss or fuss at all. But we're not using real life rules, and if you want to talk homebrew and houserules, that's fine, but that's a whole different conversation and I was under the impression the folks here were talking about how it works per RAW.
"A character can instead attempt to harvest poison from a poisonous creature, such as a snake, wyvern, or carrion crawler. The creature must be incapacitated or dead, and the harvesting requires 1d6 minutes followed by a DC 20 Intelligence (Nature) check. (Proficiency with the poisoner's kit applies to this check if the character doesn't have proficiency in Nature.) On a successful check, the character harvests enough poison for a single dose. On a failed check, the character is unable to extract any poison. If the character fails the check by 5 or more, the character is subjected to the creature's poison"
Edit: I just want to point out that this requirement is not normally a huge burden. A creature which is unconscious is incapacitated, and a creature which is asleep is unconscious. So you can just do it while a creature is sleeping, without trouble, without having to knock out or kill the creature from which you are gathering venom. The only time this is not an option is of course when going to sleep causes the creature in question to stop being that creature, because it's actually a druid. So before you think the intended method of harvesting from your domesticated venomous creature is to beat it to an inch of its life each time, that's not required at all, it's just that the normal tricks don't work on druids, for the reasons previously listed.
First off: I was entirely unaware of the specifics needed for harvesting poison from something. Sorry if my tone got misunderstood from the first post, I was just genuinely curious. Seeing those rules. it feels like the my choice would be to use those rules, but maybe lower the DC required (15?) since the druid wouldn't be hostile to the harvester and set a limit on number of times per day that feels right.
Secondly, the thing about the "incapacitated" condition is that it only means "Can't take any actions or reactions" and it almost always appears with another status. With RAW, you can be incapacitated and still move (because the movement restrictions always come from other effects). My interpretation here is that those rules are in place with the general assumption that most wild beasts either A- don't understand what's happening and therefor react poorly to the harvesting process or B- were already actively hostile towards the creature and that because of this they need one of those two conditions in order to be possible. I mean, by the RAW of the status, couldn't you just say "I incapacitate myself" or "I behave as if incapacitated"?
I'm clearly straying into RAI territory here, but I can't see why there's something inherent in being incapacitated (which again, is a BS status in this edition) or dead that allows for the venom to be extracted from a friendly character who understands what's happening. Rules always require some level of interpretation and I don't feel this interpretation is so far off base that it's reaching homebrew/house rule levels.
No worries at all! Tone is nearly impossible to convey accurately over text, I didn't take it as hostile or anything nor did I intend my post to be, just matter of fact and seeking to clarify.
As to "incapacitated", remember, it's "Can't take actions or reactions", not "doesn't". It is not the same as being paralyzed, for sure, after all, you can have a creature crawl around while laughing hysterically under Tasha's Hideous Laughter and if somehow you kept the spell going long enough without interruption you could harvest venom from it while it's doing so under RAW. The rules are weird. I can't speak as to the assumptions made by the writers, but do keep in mind as well that one of the creatures specifically listed, a Wyvern, has above beast level intelligence (intelligence of 5), and can be trained as a mount, so there's not an automatic assumption it's hostile. Harvesting your Wyvern mount for venom is the first thing I thought of when looking at the rules, and I see no reason the writers would not have at least considered that.
In real life, being friendly and communicative would make venom extraction incredibly simple and painless for all involved. "Bite this drum while I massage your poison glands" doesn't seem overly onerous or taxing, and shouldn't require a check at all. The reason the rules are in place is to balance the difficulty of obtaining the venom with its market value. How does it make sense wyvern venom is 1200GP per dose, after all, in a world where it can be harvested daily and effortlessly by its handlers, for free? Yet, how can they charge less for it, when it has such tremendous combat impact? They're going to say a Flametongue which does +2d6 damage is up to 5000GP in cost, but Wyvern Venom which is save or 7d6 damage is basically free?
So just keep all that in mind. Personally I houserule ALL the poison rules, I agree with you that they shouldn't be like they are, I think the costs are wildly off considering it's a consumable and allows a save and the dice are not technically part of the attack and thus aren't doubled during crits etc etc etc. If you want my houserules, it's a DC10 check with a cooperative animal, market value is 1/10th listed price unless it's illegal, and is 4x the cost then (or 4/10 the DMG pricing); the requirement is that it be incapacitated, dead, or cooperative; and 1 dose can be extracted from a creature per day. That's all houserules though. As would be anything removing the listed requirements or modifying the DC of the task, as it's set not to provide realism, but to provide an artificial limitation on the availability of poison to justify its massive costs, which in turn are there so heroes can't just grab a bunch of purple worm venom and go slay some dragons at much lower level than intended.
I can't speak as to the assumptions made by the writers...Harvesting your Wyvern mount for venom is the first thing I thought of when looking at the rules, and I see no reason the writers would not have at least considered that.
I think this is where we, as fans who are going in on one specific rule, have to just agree that there's no possible way to know exactly what scenarios were taken into account here. It's entirely possible they just didn't consider a 5 smart enough to grasp the concept of poison harvesting. It's also entirely possible they do. Someone get Jeremy Crawford on the phone stat!
Also, it seems pretty reasonable that polite society as a whole finds poison unsavory. I've always claimed (see above post) that part of the reason for the prices listed on poisons/toxins is a mix of difficulty in producing the supply (the creatures aren't super common/they can kill you in the process) as well as low demand (because most people don't want to poison someone). Because they're black market items, they're harder to find (drives up price) and if you're in possession of one, you'd be at risk from law enforcement. I've rarely had a guy just hawking poisons in the street, but maybe you do a quest for the thieve's guild to find a supplier who occasionally has some stuff. I do agree that the pricing listed on the books seems mostly like a way to limit low level characters from getting greater access do more damage dice, but once they DO get a steady supply of those dice as a DM you should feel free to stop pulling punches and throw greater threats at them
I'm not exactly sure how I'd handle this right this moment but the option of having it disappear doesn't mesh very well with me. This would cause something granted the poisoned condition, such as by a giant spider's bite, to just sudden get better. It's not a common issue, but an outcome I really don't care for.
Personally I would let my players do this if they wanted, In the case of a snake I have read that the process is both taxing and possibly dangerous to the snake. Complications could arise like causing a level of exhaustion or such and I’m sure with a little research issues regarding other creatures venom extraction could be implemented. Trying to sell the venom might bring in some xtra gold in the beginning but selling such merchandise would earn the party a poor reputation, too much would flood the market and prices would drop or angered rivals in the poison trade would not take kindly to someone muscling in on their trade or such that over time could escalate causing them more and more problems causing them to abandon the endeavor altogether. I would hate to stifle their creativity and take away from their fun, coming up with new ideas to try will excite them and keep them vested in the game.
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If a Druid can shapechange into a venomous creature., could the Druid "milk" itself for the venom and utilize poisoned weapons later on?
What kind of restrictions/limits would one put on this?
Take for example a Druid (Moon or otherwise) can turn into a Giant Poisonous Snake (p327 MM) (CR:1/4) whose venom has the exact same effect a Serpent Venom (p258 DMG). That venom is supposed to cost 200 gp.
Never thought of this.
I would say once a day? and someone has to help you collecting it.
I would say you could extract the venom once each time you wildshape into a snake, leaving you venomless for the duration of your wildshape. I would say it takes multiple "sessions" to actually produce an entire vial of poison usable on a weapon, judging that the snake would need less venom for the same amount of damage seeing as how its natural delivery method is more efficient.
Seems super 'gamey' and doubt any actual ingame Druid would think of doing this... But my answer (if I were the DM) would be the same as when people try to do the same type of things with summoned beasts. No, because the magic dissipates once the spell ends.
I have a few players who are interested in doing such a thing. For me it all depends on what they are trying to "milk". Some creatures produce venom faster than others. If a spider can do poison damage every time they bite then why bother limiting them while in that shape? Aside from capping how much they are able to harvest limiting them otherwise would more than likely feel like punishing them for being creative. Anyway poisons that are more useful would come from monstrosities and aberrations that a druid wouldn't normally be able to turn into.
If this is the case, can you also turn into a chicken, lay some eggs then transform back and cook and eat them. Isn't that the creepiest most horrifying idea on the planet!
I had a similar situation and I ruled that the venom was part of the wildshaped druid form so, when the druid transformed back to their caster form, the venom disappeared.
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I would ask the DM. Different DMs would react in different ways. Some might think it's creative and go along with it, while some may just make the venom dissappear once you change back.
If you’re a player asking or reading, do a little research and ask the DM with a well documented case and see what happens. Do not argue with the decision! There is a fine line between arguing and debating so just be careful not to cross it.
If you’re a DM, think about it research then decide. If you’re asked on the spot before you can research tell them you’ll follow the rule of cool (allow it for now because awesome) but it might not be a permanent thing.
Why not? As I've said time and time again, things only break a game if you let them.
Set what you feel are reasonable guidelines: Extracting the venom can only be done once per day/wild shape, and creates X amount of venom. Maybe they can only get the effects of [equipment]Poison, Basic[/equpment], which only adds 1D4 per hit and lasts 1 minute. Maybe the venom loses its potency after 48 hours, so they can't stockpile it. If they start abusing it, throw something with poison immunity (extremely common).
Also, if they're trying to make money off this stuff, maybe they can only find very specific buyers (most "good" people don't want/need poisons) and if they get caught selling it they have to deal with the town guard. The price is now determined by how difficult it is to buy/sell and less about strict supply problems.
If you're looking for a reason to prohibit this you can also go the "it's magic, and magic doesn't work that way" like people have suggested below.
Keep in mind that in order to be milked, a creature must be incapacitated or dead, and you automatically revert if you fall unconscious (or die). So for this to have any hope of working by RAW, you'd have to be incapacitated, stunned, or paralyzed, without being unconscious, for 1d6 minutes. The ONLY spell with a greater than 1 minute duration which would possibly do the trick is "Feign Death", and the concept that a status which is "indistinguishable from death" does not trigger automatic reversion on a creature which automatically reverts upon death, is a dubious one at best.
So if you want this to work, and be RAW, and not utter houseruling and a complete change as to the poison rules, you'd need to provide some way for the Druid to be incapacitated or dead but not revert for 1d6 minutes+ which was itself compliant with RAW, and I don't see any possible way of doing that.
http://www.jobmonkey.com/uniquejobs/snake-milker/
Read this description on how snake venom is collected.
It's likely that a similar process could be used for spiders/ect and that the reason they are knocked out in lab settings is because it's easier to perform the task with unwilling spiders unconscious. There's no reason to believe that being unconscious is a part of the process otherwise.
First off: I was entirely unaware of the specifics needed for harvesting poison from something. Sorry if my tone got misunderstood from the first post, I was just genuinely curious. Seeing those rules. it feels like the my choice would be to use those rules, but maybe lower the DC required (15?) since the druid wouldn't be hostile to the harvester and set a limit on number of times per day that feels right.
Secondly, the thing about the "incapacitated" condition is that it only means "Can't take any actions or reactions" and it almost always appears with another status. With RAW, you can be incapacitated and still move (because the movement restrictions always come from other effects). My interpretation here is that those rules are in place with the general assumption that most wild beasts either A- don't understand what's happening and therefor react poorly to the harvesting process or B- were already actively hostile towards the creature and that because of this they need one of those two conditions in order to be possible. I mean, by the RAW of the status, couldn't you just say "I incapacitate myself" or "I behave as if incapacitated"?
I'm clearly straying into RAI territory here, but I can't see why there's something inherent in being incapacitated (which again, is a BS status in this edition) or dead that allows for the venom to be extracted from a friendly character who understands what's happening. Rules always require some level of interpretation and I don't feel this interpretation is so far off base that it's reaching homebrew/house rule levels.
No worries at all! Tone is nearly impossible to convey accurately over text, I didn't take it as hostile or anything nor did I intend my post to be, just matter of fact and seeking to clarify.
As to "incapacitated", remember, it's "Can't take actions or reactions", not "doesn't". It is not the same as being paralyzed, for sure, after all, you can have a creature crawl around while laughing hysterically under Tasha's Hideous Laughter and if somehow you kept the spell going long enough without interruption you could harvest venom from it while it's doing so under RAW. The rules are weird. I can't speak as to the assumptions made by the writers, but do keep in mind as well that one of the creatures specifically listed, a Wyvern, has above beast level intelligence (intelligence of 5), and can be trained as a mount, so there's not an automatic assumption it's hostile. Harvesting your Wyvern mount for venom is the first thing I thought of when looking at the rules, and I see no reason the writers would not have at least considered that.
In real life, being friendly and communicative would make venom extraction incredibly simple and painless for all involved. "Bite this drum while I massage your poison glands" doesn't seem overly onerous or taxing, and shouldn't require a check at all. The reason the rules are in place is to balance the difficulty of obtaining the venom with its market value. How does it make sense wyvern venom is 1200GP per dose, after all, in a world where it can be harvested daily and effortlessly by its handlers, for free? Yet, how can they charge less for it, when it has such tremendous combat impact? They're going to say a Flametongue which does +2d6 damage is up to 5000GP in cost, but Wyvern Venom which is save or 7d6 damage is basically free?
So just keep all that in mind. Personally I houserule ALL the poison rules, I agree with you that they shouldn't be like they are, I think the costs are wildly off considering it's a consumable and allows a save and the dice are not technically part of the attack and thus aren't doubled during crits etc etc etc. If you want my houserules, it's a DC10 check with a cooperative animal, market value is 1/10th listed price unless it's illegal, and is 4x the cost then (or 4/10 the DMG pricing); the requirement is that it be incapacitated, dead, or cooperative; and 1 dose can be extracted from a creature per day. That's all houserules though. As would be anything removing the listed requirements or modifying the DC of the task, as it's set not to provide realism, but to provide an artificial limitation on the availability of poison to justify its massive costs, which in turn are there so heroes can't just grab a bunch of purple worm venom and go slay some dragons at much lower level than intended.
Also, it seems pretty reasonable that polite society as a whole finds poison unsavory. I've always claimed (see above post) that part of the reason for the prices listed on poisons/toxins is a mix of difficulty in producing the supply (the creatures aren't super common/they can kill you in the process) as well as low demand (because most people don't want to poison someone). Because they're black market items, they're harder to find (drives up price) and if you're in possession of one, you'd be at risk from law enforcement. I've rarely had a guy just hawking poisons in the street, but maybe you do a quest for the thieve's guild to find a supplier who occasionally has some stuff. I do agree that the pricing listed on the books seems mostly like a way to limit low level characters from getting greater access do more damage dice, but once they DO get a steady supply of those dice as a DM you should feel free to stop pulling punches and throw greater threats at them
I'm not exactly sure how I'd handle this right this moment but the option of having it disappear doesn't mesh very well with me. This would cause something granted the poisoned condition, such as by a giant spider's bite, to just sudden get better. It's not a common issue, but an outcome I really don't care for.
Personally I would let my players do this if they wanted, In the case of a snake I have read that the process is both taxing and possibly dangerous to the snake. Complications could arise like causing a level of exhaustion or such and I’m sure with a little research issues regarding other creatures venom extraction could be implemented. Trying to sell the venom might bring in some xtra gold in the beginning but selling such merchandise would earn the party a poor reputation, too much would flood the market and prices would drop or angered rivals in the poison trade would not take kindly to someone muscling in on their trade or such that over time could escalate causing them more and more problems causing them to abandon the endeavor altogether. I would hate to stifle their creativity and take away from their fun, coming up with new ideas to try will excite them and keep them vested in the game.