I'm curious what all of you Players and Dungeon Masters think are the best Fighter Subclasses are. As the one of the most versatile classes in the game, the Fighter is both my favorite class to play and to DM for because you are basically playing as a person with just a weapon and shield, looking at all of these ridiculous challenges and magic and saying "Meh, I got this".
The subclasses that a Fighter can choose from are varied and each carry a unique flavor and playstyle but some stand more than others. For me, the best top of the class are (in no particular order) the Battle Master, Echo Knight and Rune Knight.
BATTLE MASTER: the battlefield commander, the peerless duelist, the cunning strategist, all of this and more can describe this subclass. There is so much customization here that a player can truly make their ideal warrior and still be different from another person's BM. With the the addition of "Tasha's Cauldron of Everything" adding even MORE maneuvers to the BM list, this subclass just keeps getting better.
ECHO KNIGHT: Introduced in the "Explorer's Guide to Wildemount", a WoTC published book set in the world of Exandria, the setting of Critical Role, this subclass adds a unique suite of abilities one wouldn't normally expect from the Fighter. By creating a magical clone of yourself using the residual energies of dead potential timelines (that alone sounds AWESOME) you become a one man tag team with plenty of options. Having had the chance to both play as a Echo Knight and DM one at my table, I can confidently say that this class brings out the creativity in a player.
RUNE KNIGHT: Originally introduced as Unearthed Arcana but later revised and published in "Tasha's Cauldron of Everything", the Rune Knight is another Magic-Adjacent subclass much like the Echo Knight, but this time in the form of runes. You can choose from a number of runes that each provide a passive and active effect and place it on an item that you are wearing or carrying. These 6 options you can choose from offer a admittedly lesser degree of customization than the Battle Master but their abilities more than make up for it. You also get to grow Large and later grow HUGE! (I suspect Gnome/Halfling Rune Knights will become very popular in the near future.)
So what subclasses are your favorite or that you think are the best.
I really hate how they turned PsiKnight into a less versatile battlemaster with worse if initially bigger dicepool for his totally-not-maneuvres. I had a blast with UA version and its fluctuating dice, but no, they have to replace it with tried and boring mechanic another subclass already does better, because they think players are idiots and incapable of handling slightly more complex mechanic. Pre-nerf Psiknight was actually close to the power of those mighty three, but now it's garbage.
I wouldn't call it garbage, its still a powerful subclass but I will say that it likely is a bit weaker than my three favorites. Many of the changes came as a result of player feedback and a lot of people (myself included) didn't like the fluctuating dice. The language was a bit messy and the unreliable nature made many players apprehensive to even use the abilities for fear of then having no access to them for a day.
The method they settled onfor Psi Die may not be the most exciting but it's ultimately better in my opinion, you get a decent number of uses and still have the ability to reset if you run out too quickly. Plus there are some pretty decent out of combat options.
I will say that the loss of Mage Hand as an archetype feature is certainly irksome. The one addition or change I would have liked to see in addition to bringing back Mage Hand would be adding a static amount of psychic damage. Maybe once on every turn that you hit with a attack, add 1d4 or 1d6 psychic damage.
and the unreliable nature made many players apprehensive to even use the abilities for fear of then having no access to them for a day.
Which is a good sign non of them actually played it. I rarely even had to use my daily reset for the 3-to-8 levels of psi kings i played...
Well I did play it and that resest doesn't do you much good when you happen to have a hot streak going on rolls. And they came at inopportune times when you use them for anything other than combat. Using the UA Telepath ability with the UA version of Psi Knight immediately dropped you down a die size, using your special mage hand ability, dropped you down a die size, rolling high lowers your die size. Honestly that's a lot of unnecessary book keeping and the mechanic just doesn't vibe with a lot of players.
I can understand why that mechanic seems fun to some people but reliability is big selling point for many players and The UA Psi Knight just didn't have a great sells pitch beyond being a Psionic subclass
Literally one number to keep track of. Just like with a dicepool but different. Because we already have dicepool subclass and it's the strongest one in an entire class anyways, despite being from the corebook.
And you clearly either didn't read Telekinetic trait properly or didn't playtest it, since neither mage hand nor telekineic shove lower your dice (unless you roll max on the shove, in which case you still get your max shove as silver lining)
*Sigh* The Battle Master isn't the "strongest" strongest subclass, that's subjective. It's certainly strong but mileage varies depending on preferred playstyle, campaign, and party. I playtested the UA Psi Knight and played in a number of oneshots. The abilities were fun, the dice mechanic was not. Being punished for rolling high by subsequently lowering the power of my core feature does not feel good and is contradictory to the rest of the game where rolling high is meant to be a good thing. If it happened when I rolled a 1 it would still suck but it make more sense and I might give it a pass. At least with the Published version not only do you get a decent suite of abilities, you get a more consistent system and more uses of your abilities as you grow stronger than even the battle master. I personally call that a win.
I'd probably go with the Eldritch Knight. As long as you remember you're a fighter and not a wizard it's solid. There are some pretty good abjuration and evocation spells that help make you a better fighter.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The abilities were fun, the dice mechanic was not. Being punished for rolling high by subsequently lowering the power of my core feature does not feel good and is contradictory to the rest of the game where rolling high is meant to be a good thing. If it happened when I rolled a 1 it would still suck but it make more sense and I might give it a pass. At least with the Published version not only do you get a decent suite of abilities, you get a more consistent system and more uses of your abilities as you grow stronger than even the battle master. I personally call that a win.
As someone who played it a lot, fluctuating dice is a tradeoff. It provides you with (statistically) may more uses of your subclass features instead of running out after few uses. I used psi-die every turn, sometimes 2 or three times and it provided a good dynamic - I roll high, yay good damage/shield/jump/shove as a silver lining, I roll low yet again yay for regenerating a die. Of course if you seek for negatives you'd find them, but it's your issue, not rules issue. Most of the combat turns I spent at one die size below maxiumum, but even if I had a terrible luck and run our of dices in three turns and lost all the powers, it's not that much different from when Battlemaster goes nova and burns through all his dice.
Now with Battlemster-ed mechanics Psi-Warrior is just the poor man's Battlemaster with more limited options for cool stuff he can do with a limitted dicepool that doesn't even regenerate on a short rest. It would be comparable and a contender for S-tier subclass, if psi-powers were better than maneuvres, but they aren't - most things Psi-Warrior do Battlemaster does better. It was that way before but it was OK because Psi-Knight could do those things semi-consistently, but now he runs out of gas same as Battlemaster.
Given the end result, it seems that other players and WoTC didn't agree with your thoughts on the Psi Knight and so we have the official Psi Warrior, and still think think it's a good archetype that works well under the Fighter banner. I am sorry you feel its bad but I'll enjoy playing it as I'm sure others will too.
I'd probably go with the Eldritch Knight. As long as you remember you're a fighter and not a wizard it's solid. There are some pretty good abjuration and evocation spells that help make you a better fighter.
Eldritch Knight is a good pick. Thematically I like it but I wish some of the features were rearranged.
I do too, but I think there's a lot of unique potential available in there.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I really hate how they turned PsiKnight into a less versatile battlemaster with worse if initially bigger dicepool for his totally-not-maneuvres. I had a blast with UA version and its fluctuating dice, but no, they have to replace it with tried and boring mechanic another subclass already does better, because they think players are idiots and incapable of handling slightly more complex mechanic. Pre-nerf Psiknight was actually close to the power of those mighty three, but now it's garbage.
Given the end result, it seems that other players and WoTC didn't agree with your thoughts on the Psi Knight and so we have the official Psi Warrior, and still think think it's a good archetype that works well under the Fighter banner. I am sorry you feel its bad but I'll enjoy playing it as I'm sure others will too.
The end result is barely B-tier, hile it could have been S-tier alongside BM and EC if they kept the psi-die or if they went with dicepool but made psi-powers more than Trip Attack with a tiny bit more damage but lower chance to actually work, as the save scales with INT or a weaker Parry you can use to protect an ally. With transforming dice psiknight was cool because he could do those things all day if not at full efficiency, but now it's a just a BM with pre-set maneuvers that can use all his daily dice in one fight.
A GWM/Sharpshooter Samurai can be really powerful and incredible tanky by generating advantage and THP. A Samurai Archer Elf with Elven Accuracy and Sharpshooter is the most reliable and durable DPR King in this game.
EK is probably the best defensive character concept in the game by having things like Shield, Absorb Elements and Protection from Evil & Good. Last session our EK (level 4) tanked two Flesh Golems and thanks to the Shield spell, he was able to mitigate more than ~38 damage. On the offense side, you are still a full Fighter with lots of attacks and Action Surge. At high-levels, a DEX EK Fighter with Shadow Blade, Mage Armor and Booming Blade (pre-Tasha’s) can be incredible powerful without resorting on any mundane equipment, you are able to generate your own arsenal by yourself.
An EK who gets Warcaster and PAM and or sentinel can also do some really nasty things on OA. A one handed staff or spear qualifies for duelling fighting style...on both attacks so you're getting a bonus action attack with PAM, and a BB OA when a monster comes into reach, all with really nice static bonuses.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
An EK who gets Warcaster and PAM and or sentinel can also do some really nasty things on OA. A one handed staff or spear qualifies for duelling fighting style...on both attacks so you're getting a bonus action attack with PAM, and a BB OA when a monster comes into reach, all with really nice static bonuses.
Really good points. War Caster is a no-brainer for EKs. However, I don’t think PAM is quite good before level 11. The usually go-to route is:
An EK who gets Warcaster and PAM and or sentinel can also do some really nasty things on OA. A one handed staff or spear qualifies for duelling fighting style...on both attacks so you're getting a bonus action attack with PAM, and a BB OA when a monster comes into reach, all with really nice static bonuses.
Really good points. War Caster is a no-brainer for EKs. However, I don’t think PAM is quite good before level 11. The usually go-to route is:
EK with War Caster and Booming Blade is the most effective tank in the game.
I don't agree, why would I not want PAM before level 11?
You take PAM to give you an OA as soon as something enters your reach. I want that ASAP because reaction attacks are great. Until I hit level 5, I'm likely using my bonus action to off attack too, and even then I think the math is in favor of bonus action attacks over BB, unless you have a way to ensure that the creature procs BB's rider. Toe to toe, assuming warcaster at 4, PAM at 1 with vhuman 16 str, A spear with duelling will do d6+5, d6+5, d4+5 = 24.5 damage in a round. With booming blade the same character would get d6+5 +d8 = 13. if the move is procced, you add an extra 4.5, so that's still only 17.5 and /significantly/ less than a PAM EK, not using booming blade.
Where it really comes to life is the reaction attacks. When a creature moves into it's reach, the EK uses his /reaction/ to drop the single BB hit for 13 points of damage on a hit starting at level 5 when BB scales. That's /free/ damage.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
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I'm curious what all of you Players and Dungeon Masters think are the best Fighter Subclasses are. As the one of the most versatile classes in the game, the Fighter is both my favorite class to play and to DM for because you are basically playing as a person with just a weapon and shield, looking at all of these ridiculous challenges and magic and saying "Meh, I got this".
The subclasses that a Fighter can choose from are varied and each carry a unique flavor and playstyle but some stand more than others. For me, the best top of the class are (in no particular order) the Battle Master, Echo Knight and Rune Knight.
BATTLE MASTER: the battlefield commander, the peerless duelist, the cunning strategist, all of this and more can describe this subclass. There is so much customization here that a player can truly make their ideal warrior and still be different from another person's BM. With the the addition of "Tasha's Cauldron of Everything" adding even MORE maneuvers to the BM list, this subclass just keeps getting better.
ECHO KNIGHT: Introduced in the "Explorer's Guide to Wildemount", a WoTC published book set in the world of Exandria, the setting of Critical Role, this subclass adds a unique suite of abilities one wouldn't normally expect from the Fighter. By creating a magical clone of yourself using the residual energies of dead potential timelines (that alone sounds AWESOME) you become a one man tag team with plenty of options. Having had the chance to both play as a Echo Knight and DM one at my table, I can confidently say that this class brings out the creativity in a player.
RUNE KNIGHT: Originally introduced as Unearthed Arcana but later revised and published in "Tasha's Cauldron of Everything", the Rune Knight is another Magic-Adjacent subclass much like the Echo Knight, but this time in the form of runes. You can choose from a number of runes that each provide a passive and active effect and place it on an item that you are wearing or carrying. These 6 options you can choose from offer a admittedly lesser degree of customization than the Battle Master but their abilities more than make up for it. You also get to grow Large and later grow HUGE! (I suspect Gnome/Halfling Rune Knights will become very popular in the near future.)
So what subclasses are your favorite or that you think are the best.
I really hate how they turned PsiKnight into a less versatile battlemaster with worse if initially bigger dicepool for his totally-not-maneuvres. I had a blast with UA version and its fluctuating dice, but no, they have to replace it with tried and boring mechanic another subclass already does better, because they think players are idiots and incapable of handling slightly more complex mechanic. Pre-nerf Psiknight was actually close to the power of those mighty three, but now it's garbage.
I wouldn't call it garbage, its still a powerful subclass but I will say that it likely is a bit weaker than my three favorites. Many of the changes came as a result of player feedback and a lot of people (myself included) didn't like the fluctuating dice. The language was a bit messy and the unreliable nature made many players apprehensive to even use the abilities for fear of then having no access to them for a day.
The method they settled onfor Psi Die may not be the most exciting but it's ultimately better in my opinion, you get a decent number of uses and still have the ability to reset if you run out too quickly. Plus there are some pretty decent out of combat options.
I will say that the loss of Mage Hand as an archetype feature is certainly irksome. The one addition or change I would have liked to see in addition to bringing back Mage Hand would be adding a static amount of psychic damage. Maybe once on every turn that you hit with a attack, add 1d4 or 1d6 psychic damage.
Which is a good sign non of them actually played it. I rarely even had to use my daily reset for the 3-to-8 levels of psi kings i played...
Well I did play it and that resest doesn't do you much good when you happen to have a hot streak going on rolls. And they came at inopportune times when you use them for anything other than combat. Using the UA Telepath ability with the UA version of Psi Knight immediately dropped you down a die size, using your special mage hand ability, dropped you down a die size, rolling high lowers your die size. Honestly that's a lot of unnecessary book keeping and the mechanic just doesn't vibe with a lot of players.
I can understand why that mechanic seems fun to some people but reliability is big selling point for many players and The UA Psi Knight just didn't have a great sells pitch beyond being a Psionic subclass
Literally one number to keep track of. Just like with a dicepool but different. Because we already have dicepool subclass and it's the strongest one in an entire class anyways, despite being from the corebook.
And you clearly either didn't read Telekinetic trait properly or didn't playtest it, since neither mage hand nor telekineic shove lower your dice (unless you roll max on the shove, in which case you still get your max shove as silver lining)
*Sigh* The Battle Master isn't the "strongest" strongest subclass, that's subjective. It's certainly strong but mileage varies depending on preferred playstyle, campaign, and party. I playtested the UA Psi Knight and played in a number of oneshots. The abilities were fun, the dice mechanic was not. Being punished for rolling high by subsequently lowering the power of my core feature does not feel good and is contradictory to the rest of the game where rolling high is meant to be a good thing. If it happened when I rolled a 1 it would still suck but it make more sense and I might give it a pass. At least with the Published version not only do you get a decent suite of abilities, you get a more consistent system and more uses of your abilities as you grow stronger than even the battle master. I personally call that a win.
I'd probably go with the Eldritch Knight. As long as you remember you're a fighter and not a wizard it's solid. There are some pretty good abjuration and evocation spells that help make you a better fighter.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
As someone who played it a lot, fluctuating dice is a tradeoff. It provides you with (statistically) may more uses of your subclass features instead of running out after few uses. I used psi-die every turn, sometimes 2 or three times and it provided a good dynamic - I roll high, yay good damage/shield/jump/shove as a silver lining, I roll low yet again yay for regenerating a die. Of course if you seek for negatives you'd find them, but it's your issue, not rules issue. Most of the combat turns I spent at one die size below maxiumum, but even if I had a terrible luck and run our of dices in three turns and lost all the powers, it's not that much different from when Battlemaster goes nova and burns through all his dice.
Now with Battlemster-ed mechanics Psi-Warrior is just the poor man's Battlemaster with more limited options for cool stuff he can do with a limitted dicepool that doesn't even regenerate on a short rest. It would be comparable and a contender for S-tier subclass, if psi-powers were better than maneuvres, but they aren't - most things Psi-Warrior do Battlemaster does better. It was that way before but it was OK because Psi-Knight could do those things semi-consistently, but now he runs out of gas same as Battlemaster.
Given the end result, it seems that other players and WoTC didn't agree with your thoughts on the Psi Knight and so we have the official Psi Warrior, and still think think it's a good archetype that works well under the Fighter banner. I am sorry you feel its bad but I'll enjoy playing it as I'm sure others will too.
Eldritch Knight is a good pick. Thematically I like it but I wish some of the features were rearranged.
I do too, but I think there's a lot of unique potential available in there.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
This^^^
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
The end result is barely B-tier, hile it could have been S-tier alongside BM and EC if they kept the psi-die or if they went with dicepool but made psi-powers more than Trip Attack with a tiny bit more damage but lower chance to actually work, as the save scales with INT or a weaker Parry you can use to protect an ally. With transforming dice psiknight was cool because he could do those things all day if not at full efficiency, but now it's a just a BM with pre-set maneuvers that can use all his daily dice in one fight.
Brute.
Let’s not forget Samurai and Eldritch Knight.
A GWM/Sharpshooter Samurai can be really powerful and incredible tanky by generating advantage and THP. A Samurai Archer Elf with Elven Accuracy and Sharpshooter is the most reliable and durable DPR King in this game.
EK is probably the best defensive character concept in the game by having things like Shield, Absorb Elements and Protection from Evil & Good. Last session our EK (level 4) tanked two Flesh Golems and thanks to the Shield spell, he was able to mitigate more than ~38 damage. On the offense side, you are still a full Fighter with lots of attacks and Action Surge. At high-levels, a DEX EK Fighter with Shadow Blade, Mage Armor and Booming Blade (pre-Tasha’s) can be incredible powerful without resorting on any mundane equipment, you are able to generate your own arsenal by yourself.
An EK who gets Warcaster and PAM and or sentinel can also do some really nasty things on OA. A one handed staff or spear qualifies for duelling fighting style...on both attacks so you're getting a bonus action attack with PAM, and a BB OA when a monster comes into reach, all with really nice static bonuses.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Really good points. War Caster is a no-brainer for EKs. However, I don’t think PAM is quite good before level 11. The usually go-to route is:
Level 1-4: Booming Blade once
Level 5-6: Two regular attacks
Level 7-11: Booming Blade once, regular attack with bonus action (War Magic)
Level 11+: Three regular attacks
EK with War Caster and Booming Blade is the most effective tank in the game.
That was then. Now we have Beast Barbarian with self-healing from jaws or +1d8 AP from the tail, both only limited by the rage charges.
I don't agree, why would I not want PAM before level 11?
You take PAM to give you an OA as soon as something enters your reach. I want that ASAP because reaction attacks are great. Until I hit level 5, I'm likely using my bonus action to off attack too, and even then I think the math is in favor of bonus action attacks over BB, unless you have a way to ensure that the creature procs BB's rider. Toe to toe, assuming warcaster at 4, PAM at 1 with vhuman 16 str, A spear with duelling will do d6+5, d6+5, d4+5 = 24.5 damage in a round. With booming blade the same character would get d6+5 +d8 = 13. if the move is procced, you add an extra 4.5, so that's still only 17.5 and /significantly/ less than a PAM EK, not using booming blade.
Where it really comes to life is the reaction attacks. When a creature moves into it's reach, the EK uses his /reaction/ to drop the single BB hit for 13 points of damage on a hit starting at level 5 when BB scales. That's /free/ damage.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha