Is it just me or is the Perfect Soul ability seem incredibly underwhelming compared to other classes?
At 20th level, when you roll for initiative and have no ki points remaining, you regain 4 ki points.
While yes, it would be useful during a long stretch of battles with no rests in between... it's just bland. The lack of a powerful, flashy, or deeply rewarding 20th level ability is why I eventually abandoned my monk. Thoughts?
I kind of agree, yeah. It would be nice to have a Dexterity and Wisdom-based equivalent of the Barbarian's "Primal Champion", getting that sweet +4 to the scores.
While I agree that as a capstone ability, it feels kinda weak, it's no different than some of the other classes. For context, Bard's capstone ability is that they regain 1 inspiration die at level 20. We, at least, get 4 ki points.
Personally, I believe the less flashy way Monk's capstone is handled is on-theme.
However, I would much prefer it if it went into effect whenever you have fewer than 4 ki remaining, as opposed to 0 (and, naturally, bring your remaining ki points up to 4).
I always feel like I should keep one or two ki points for a last moment's Dash or Dodge, or, *gasp* Save, so I don't even see the ability triggered at all, typically.
At low levels, I found myself running out of ki points all the time, so having that ability then would have been great. At 20th level, you've now got 20 ki points. That's a lot of points. Add in the fact that you get them back on a short rest and yeah, that is a pretty disappointing capstone.
If I were to change it, I'd make it that at level 20 you can once per long rest restore 10 of your ki points as an action, or something like that.
I like to think of the Monk as having a not particularly stunning 20th level feature because they pulled a similar trick to how an anime ninja might switch places with a log at an opportune moment - so their actual capstone is hiding in the bushes of 14th level, and that feature at 20th is actually a log.
Underwhelming for sure, but it really doesn't matter. The monk does get a lot of other rather good things ( sadly not much combat wise) that it is still okay.
A Four Elements Monk with Flames of the Phoenix can use Perfect Self to cast Fireball every turn in perpetuity.
The standard rules for rolling initiative in 5th edition is once at the start of an encounter, not every round, so this flame-flinging monk could manage a fireball for every combat no matter how many they had in a day, not one every turn.
I could see a capstone being some kind of "Mind and Body Perfection" where all of the monk's ability scores and their corresponding maximums increase by +2.
I don't think it's as much as the monk captstone is underpowered ... these conversations happen for many classes and typically they point at either Barbarian "look at all those extra stats" or Druid "wildshape every round!" as being way more powerful.
It strikes me that it's just the Barbarian capstone is very upfront and obvious about what power it is adding to the character. Those stats are "always on" and don't rely on a certain condition to do something. They're really obviously beneficial all the time. The Druid capstone allows the druid player to wildshape casually all the time, especially if they're a Moon druid (so can transform as a bonus actions). If they want to get somewhere, they can just casually transform to an eagle, fly for a few seconds and then land and transform back. No resource used. Again, it's "always on" and and can be used all the time.
Many other classes have capstones that add just as much power, but require certain conditions.
The Monk one has a fairly good homebrew tweak of, "When you roll for initiative, if you have fewer than 4 Ki points remaining, set your ki points to 4."
I believe the issue with Perfect Soul isn't its "power", per se, but rather how often it sees play.
In my experience, as written, it never does. When a monk reaches level 20, they have 20 ki points. Even with less conservative spending habits, I have rarely seen a monk use up all 20 before the party is up for a short rest. But even in difficult circumstances, when the party does not have the luxury of resting at all, I have noticed that the tendency is to at least keep 1-2 ki points for absolute emergencies (such as a critical Save out of combat - Diamond Soul is awesome).
Thus, the homerule is actually necessary for the ability to matter at all (again, in my experience). I understand Monks of the Way of the Four Elements may have different needs, but I have never played or seen that particular path played.
Heh, that reminds me the time of the Next playtest. No, not the "all stats at 20" bit, after that. When the ability was "regenerate 1 ki point per turn". :D
Okay, yes, that's a bit too powerful. But thinking about it, I'd suggest the following homerule (that actually just came to me).
"At the beginning of your turn, if you have no ki points left, you gain 1 ki point."
What do people think? It doesn't allow you to go crazy with full-stun flurries when you're out of juice, but it allows you one monk thing per turn. I think it matches the "power" of the current capstone (4 ki on initiative, versus 1 per round. How many fights last more than 4 rounds?) and it does away with the issue of "I have to keep 1, so I never get the 4 on battle start".
And come on, it's a 20 level power. A 20 level monk should be able to do the basic things practically indefinitely (such as flurry, or return-to-sender-arrow, or one stun, etc).
I hope that they do for the monk what they did for the ranger and give it a UA revision. I know they're supposed to only be partially combat oriented compared to the straight up fighters, but they just seem underwhelming in combat. Who wants to be a monk if you can't feel like Ip Man? I don't want to have to multiclass in order to feel like i'm fitting the theme of the class I originally picked.
I hope that they do for the monk what they did for the ranger and give it a UA revision. I know they're supposed to only be partially combat oriented compared to the straight up fighters, but they just seem underwhelming in combat. Who wants to be a monk if you can't feel like Ip Man? I don't want to have to multiclass in order to feel like i'm fitting the theme of the class I originally picked.
A monk with 20 Wisdom has the AC of studded leather, +3. Open Hand monks get (at 17th level) one of the few true save-or-die abilities in the whole edition. At 1st level, a monk can attack twice per round, adding their Dex modifier to damage on both attacks, a feat matched only by fighters specializing in Two-Weapon Fighting.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Is it just me or is the Perfect Soul ability seem incredibly underwhelming compared to other classes?
While yes, it would be useful during a long stretch of battles with no rests in between... it's just bland. The lack of a powerful, flashy, or deeply rewarding 20th level ability is why I eventually abandoned my monk. Thoughts?
I kind of agree, yeah. It would be nice to have a Dexterity and Wisdom-based equivalent of the Barbarian's "Primal Champion", getting that sweet +4 to the scores.
Or at least some kind of amplification to your existing Chi abilities.
While I agree that as a capstone ability, it feels kinda weak, it's no different than some of the other classes. For context, Bard's capstone ability is that they regain 1 inspiration die at level 20. We, at least, get 4 ki points.
Personally, I believe the less flashy way Monk's capstone is handled is on-theme.
However, I would much prefer it if it went into effect whenever you have fewer than 4 ki remaining, as opposed to 0 (and, naturally, bring your remaining ki points up to 4).
I always feel like I should keep one or two ki points for a last moment's Dash or Dodge, or, *gasp* Save, so I don't even see the ability triggered at all, typically.
At low levels, I found myself running out of ki points all the time, so having that ability then would have been great. At 20th level, you've now got 20 ki points. That's a lot of points. Add in the fact that you get them back on a short rest and yeah, that is a pretty disappointing capstone.
If I were to change it, I'd make it that at level 20 you can once per long rest restore 10 of your ki points as an action, or something like that.
I like to think of the Monk as having a not particularly stunning 20th level feature because they pulled a similar trick to how an anime ninja might switch places with a log at an opportune moment - so their actual capstone is hiding in the bushes of 14th level, and that feature at 20th is actually a log.
Underwhelming for sure, but it really doesn't matter. The monk does get a lot of other rather good things ( sadly not much combat wise) that it is still okay.
The standard rules for rolling initiative in 5th edition is once at the start of an encounter, not every round, so this flame-flinging monk could manage a fireball for every combat no matter how many they had in a day, not one every turn.
That still sounds like it doesn't really work out exactly as stated when attempted at the table.
I agree, the cap stone seems very underwhelming. This just makes me want to dip into another class for one level.
I could see a capstone being some kind of "Mind and Body Perfection" where all of the monk's ability scores and their corresponding maximums increase by +2.
Better than the rangers end cap... that's why I multi classes into monk after lvl 8 in ranger and never looked back
I don't think it's as much as the monk captstone is underpowered ... these conversations happen for many classes and typically they point at either Barbarian "look at all those extra stats" or Druid "wildshape every round!" as being way more powerful.
It strikes me that it's just the Barbarian capstone is very upfront and obvious about what power it is adding to the character. Those stats are "always on" and don't rely on a certain condition to do something. They're really obviously beneficial all the time. The Druid capstone allows the druid player to wildshape casually all the time, especially if they're a Moon druid (so can transform as a bonus actions). If they want to get somewhere, they can just casually transform to an eagle, fly for a few seconds and then land and transform back. No resource used. Again, it's "always on" and and can be used all the time.
Many other classes have capstones that add just as much power, but require certain conditions.
The Monk one has a fairly good homebrew tweak of, "When you roll for initiative, if you have fewer than 4 Ki points remaining, set your ki points to 4."
Pun-loving nerd | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
I believe the issue with Perfect Soul isn't its "power", per se, but rather how often it sees play.
In my experience, as written, it never does. When a monk reaches level 20, they have 20 ki points. Even with less conservative spending habits, I have rarely seen a monk use up all 20 before the party is up for a short rest. But even in difficult circumstances, when the party does not have the luxury of resting at all, I have noticed that the tendency is to at least keep 1-2 ki points for absolute emergencies (such as a critical Save out of combat - Diamond Soul is awesome).
Thus, the homerule is actually necessary for the ability to matter at all (again, in my experience). I understand Monks of the Way of the Four Elements may have different needs, but I have never played or seen that particular path played.
Heh, that reminds me the time of the Next playtest. No, not the "all stats at 20" bit, after that. When the ability was "regenerate 1 ki point per turn". :D
Okay, yes, that's a bit too powerful. But thinking about it, I'd suggest the following homerule (that actually just came to me).
"At the beginning of your turn, if you have no ki points left, you gain 1 ki point."
What do people think? It doesn't allow you to go crazy with full-stun flurries when you're out of juice, but it allows you one monk thing per turn. I think it matches the "power" of the current capstone (4 ki on initiative, versus 1 per round. How many fights last more than 4 rounds?) and it does away with the issue of "I have to keep 1, so I never get the 4 on battle start".
And come on, it's a 20 level power. A 20 level monk should be able to do the basic things practically indefinitely (such as flurry, or return-to-sender-arrow, or one stun, etc).
I hope that they do for the monk what they did for the ranger and give it a UA revision. I know they're supposed to only be partially combat oriented compared to the straight up fighters, but they just seem underwhelming in combat. Who wants to be a monk if you can't feel like Ip Man? I don't want to have to multiclass in order to feel like i'm fitting the theme of the class I originally picked.
#OpenDnD. #DnDBegone
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)