I personally really enjoy the fantasy of playing the Avatar, but as I keep playing my Monk ( level 10 now) it gets more apparent to me that I am a little ****** compared to the other Ways.
Both in damage and utility the Ki costs seem a bit up there. Most of it comes down to the very very limited about of Disciplines the game allows you . Yes, it would be broken to have all however I think a different flavor spell then Prestidigitation would go a long way.
Unfortunately, it seems like the Way of the Four Elements never really got there. Personally, I've struggled with the 5e Monk. It's very multi-role and not necessarily the best class when you're in a small party. The role-play elements are awesome though and the theatric with which a Four Elements monk can be flavored have endless potential with a flexible DM. A few people have tried re-doing the class on reddit homebrews - maybe pursuing one of those with your DM's blessing is worth a shot?
It's pretty weak tbh. The biggest problem is that it has no free abilities like the Open Hand and Shadow Monk. Way of 4 elements has to pay for everything and the ki costs are honestly too high. I really think it needs to be reworked like the ranger was in UA. The Way of 4 Elements could really use access to the Elemental Evil Player's Companion spells. I am not going to break down all of its deficiencies but if you simply take a look at the abilities that the other monks get and contrast them with the Way of 4 elements and it's high ki costs you can see where the subclass went wrong. The Way of 4 elements is essentially an impotent sorcerer monk multiclass. With that being said, I admit that almost all of the other subclasses are decent and viable. The only two in the PHB that I think are subpar are the Beast Master and Way of 4 Elements.
I think it was a first attempt at resurrecting Wu Jen, focus on mobility and evocation damage to make it more interesting. Now that the Mystic has Wu Jen it would be nice to see more WoTFE disciplines which they could easily add via Unearthed Arcana. I was hoping maybe some wood and metal related abilities.
So far they don't really seemed to be interested in re balancing anything aside from the Ranger. The Wild Magic Sorcerer, the way of the four elements Monk, some of the Bards stuff and likely more I don't know could all use a touch up. But those are boring compared to a fresh new option.
I agree that the Way of the Four Elements Monk and Wild Magic Sorcerer are underpowered, but what kind of Bard stuff are you talking about? Everyone says that Bards are underpowered but they have such a wide variety of use that I don't see how they can be overlooked
College of Valor is a bit iffy as a melee option is rather weak. Mainly because you lack things to do as a bonus action or reaction aside from your bardic inspiration. You don't get a your second/extra attack later then most, the way to buff your attacks works against you helping your party meaning you are either gimp your damage by holding on the inspiration die for a tight situation or blow them to boost your own damage and due to the lack of bonus actions and reactions you can end up in the weird case of standing in melee to cast something and depending on the DM it might mean putting your Focus/Instrument as risk (because let's face it a lute will get damaged if you get hit by an orc while holding it). It gets fixed with levels, but it takes till level 14 till somewhat be okay.
As for college of valor it is okay, just not combat oriented, could us some more perks between levels as you feel like getting empty levels at points.
The stuff in Sword coasts guide they got was just background dressing leaving them with a rather low amount of options.
I'd prefer to see the 4 Elements Monk (Avatar) turn into a specialized Elemental Monk which would need expanded options for abilities.
Treat it like maneuvers from Battle Master. I choose Water Monk. I get to choose from a number of water-centric abilities. As I level up I get opportunities to choose more water based abilities. Eventually perhaps I gain access to another element. and a few of those abilities.
This means I could create a Water/Earth Monk or a Water/Air Monk maybe even a Water/Fire Monk (though opposing elements should be more difficult to master).
With expanded options at each level and within each elemental discipline that means monks will not be copies of each other with access to all the same skills. Even within the same discipline there would be variances based on player choice.
They bring near no out of combat and very low RP wise either. You are a monk that can do Prestidigitation and that is about it. Gaining things like shape earth/fire/water out of combat would be a big thing already. How ever wizard decided that to cost Ki which way of the four elements monks already don't have enough off.
I think the Four Elements Monk is great in concept. It is the Monk's version of Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster with a bit of an advantage.
The four elements monk can:
Cast higher level spells sooner, and up their spells to 5th level. At level 17, you can get cone of cold (5th level) for instance. At level 11 you get fireball. This is superior to both EK or AT who can't cast 3rd level spells until level 13, and cannot cast 5th level spells at all.
Short rest recharge. If you consider Ki points to be like the magic point variant rule (pg 289 of DMG) they get 20/short rest (10 at level 10) compared to the AT or EK 38/long rest (14 at level 10). This means depending on your adventuring day, the monks can cast their spells more often! Very nifty.
High damaging with non-spell disciplines. Fangs of the Fire Snake, Water Whip, and Fist of Unbroken air are all excellently high damaging disciplines. Whip and Fist do 3d10 damage (half on save) plus a battlefield manipulation effect for TWO ki points! And it scales 1d10 per ki point! Fangs of the Fire Snake allows for ranged unarmed attacks and an extra 1d10 fire damage per attack, per ki point spent.
Spell-point per spell level. Assuming the variant spell point system again, the four elements monk actually gets a good discount on the amount of points needed to cast. Cone of Cold takes 6 ki, where as it would normally take 7 spell points. This monk follows 1 + spell level ki points to cast a spell.
The problem with four elements monk is that it doesn't feel very good to play. Examples of my problems with it:
Severely limited spell list. They have access to 4 of the 17 elemental disciplines. This doesn't exactly give you that "Avatar" feel. The expectation falls short and you have virtually no versatility compared to casters of the same caliber (Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster).
Limited resources. At low levels you activate one Water Whip and you are done with you elemental powers resorting to using other monk abilities.
Meshing with other class features. Above I mentioned how one water whip at low levels can really drain your ki. Now, this isn't inherently a bad thing, but it doesn't feel very special. It feels great to Flurry of Blows with an Open Fist monk for example. You are a bad ass hand-to-hand combatant and your archetype skills mesh with that. For Four Elemental Monk, you essentially "blow your load" depending on the discipline you take and you are done and back to being that hand-to-hand combatant. Your abilities don't really improve your ability to "monk" that much. To compare, Eldritch Knight can cast spells that allow them to boost their defense, make more attacks, basically become a better fighter. Arcane Trickster, can charm people and hold people still. Awesome I can still be a very competent rogue!
No niche. Okay, so the four elements monk is a blaster? Just like every other caster ever? Cool. I can cast Fireball, Thunderwave, Cone of Cold, Shatter, Burning Hands. Much much later than everyone else... Great... So I can't monk as well as the other archetypes, and I don't fill a blaster archetype as well either...
Overall this is a great conception with lots of potential. It needs more competitive choices that help with what the monk is good at.
I had a player in my PotA game who wanted to play an Avatar-like character as well, but instead of the useless "Elemental Attunement" discipline I gave her access to all 4 elemental cantrips from the PotA book (Control Flames, Gust, Mold Earth, and Shape Water). This seemed to "help" a little, but the class was still pretty weak (both in and out of combat), especially compared to the other options. I think she's only EVER used Water Whip, and even then it was like 2-MAYBE-3x total.
The Wu Jen Mystic in the Unearthed Arcana is everything that I wish the WotFE Monk was (with the exception of the Mastery of Wood and Earth). It truly is everything you'd want your Avatar-like character to be.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
So, I'm gonna buck the trend a bit. At low levels, I'll agree 4e monks are way underpowered. But, after lvl 6 I think it starts evening out. At lvl 11, 4e monk is pretty good. Not better than other monks, but pretty good.
They are the Warlock of the Monk subclasses. Yes, you can only use their special abilities a few times before needing a recharge, but that recharge is on a short rest. Do you have to be more strategic with your Ki use? Yes. But in exchange you get all 4 elemental controls in one ability that's free (Elemental Attunement), 1/3rd spellcaster progression, Nova abilities (Water Whip and Fist of Unbroken Air have no Ki caps), and at lvl 11 the greatest Monk spell in Fly.
Honestly, if nothing else 4e prevents Stun spamming and forces creative playstyles. Getting everything back on a short rest evens it out to me once you have 6 Ki points as long as you aren't trying to blow them all in every fight. 4e more than the others is extremely unforgiving for poor Ki use planning.
I've so far have been enjoying my four elements monk. Yeah, I end up running out of Ki points in some of our fights, but we always manage a short rest. Fist of Unbroken Air has been great for fights on the airship we've been traveling on as well as keeping enemies in the area of effect spells of our wizard.
I've been playing with the idea that Wot4E monks can get Wis mod additional Ki, which could net them anywhere from 4-8 ki at 3rd level, but only 25 ki at 20. So far its been going well, but I don't have anyone to abuse it which makes knowing the full impact a bit more difficult.
I've so far have been enjoying my four elements monk. Yeah, I end up running out of Ki points in some of our fights, but we always manage a short rest. Fist of Unbroken Air has been great for fights on the airship we've been traveling on as well as keeping enemies in the area of effect spells of our wizard.
This is a great use of the Four Elements Monk. If it had more battlefield control options (which the Monk is pretty good at) for the different elements, it would have its niche in the monk class.
See, I think THAT'S the problem with this subclass: the lack of options. For what it's SUPPOSED to be you get so few disciplines that it's relatively "meh".
Like, as a budding "master" of the four elements, you basically have one main ability (probably Water Whip or Fist of Unbroken Air ) and the remainder is the same amount of mastery as a level 1 spellcaster (you get the elemental version of prestidigitation).
You get a new one 3 levels later, then 5, then 6. So your mastery consists of a maximum of 5 abilities, which aren't really that varied (and certainly aren't better than anything a level 9 spellcaster couldn't perform).
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Let's remind that a monk is first and foremost a fighter-like class. It is quite normal to have a very limited access to spells (or spell-like abilities).
Let's remind that a monk is first and foremost a fighter-like class. It is quite normal to have a very limited access to spells (or spell-like abilities).
That's true, though I believe the theory of this is that the other Monastic Traditions supplement that aspect of the monk, while the Way of the Four Elements actually replaces that aspect. Think about it, you are burning through your ki points with this feature that does nothing to actually supplement your melee abilities (with the exception of Fangs of the Fire Snake).
Way of the Open Hand Open Hand Technique allows you to knock a target prone, push it up to 15 feet, or make it so it can't take a reaction when you use your Flurry of Blows, all without expending more ki points. Wholeness of Body lets you heal yourself, again without expending ki points. Tranquility gives you the sanctuary spell, without spending ki points. Quivering Palm is the only feature of an Open Hand monk that requires you to spend ki points (3), but it does it when you use a melee attack and either kills the target or deals 55 (10d10) damage. For reference: Breath of Winter (the highest damage dealing ability) requires double the ki points (6) and only deals 20 (8d8) on a failed save and 10 (4d8) on a successful one, granted that's AoE damage, but it requires twice as many ki points and doesn't have a save-or-die mechanic.
Way of Shadow Shadow Arts gives you the ability to cast darkness, darkvision, pass without trace, and silence for 2 ki points, which are/can be far more beneficial than the ONE ability you get from Four Elements. Shadow Step allows you to travel 60 feet and gives you advantage on your melee attack all without expending ki points. Cloak of Shadows gives you free casts of invisibility so long as you aren't in bright light. And Opportunist lets you get free hits against an enemy.
Both of these traditions help you make better melee attacks and give you benefits that don't require you to use your ki points. All of the Way of the Four Elements abilities require you to spend your ki points, and again only one of these abilities supplements your ability to deal melee damage in the form of a 10 foot reach; which can be a hindrance since opportunity attacks only happen when they move out of your reach in 5e, not when they move out of a space you threaten. Situationally Water Whip and Fist of Unbroken Air can be good for controlling the battlefield, but So can Open Hand Technique or Shadow Step and neither of those abilities require you to spend more ki points (though Open Hand Technique is a part of Flurry of Blows, which DOES require Ki points).
And for those who are defending the tradition based on getting Elemental Attunement: it's just prestidigitation. Let's not act like it doesn't get replaced immediately at 6th level with literally ANYTHING else available.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
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I personally really enjoy the fantasy of playing the Avatar, but as I keep playing my Monk ( level 10 now) it gets more apparent to me that I am a little ****** compared to the other Ways.
Both in damage and utility the Ki costs seem a bit up there. Most of it comes down to the very very limited about of Disciplines the game allows you . Yes, it would be broken to have all however I think a different flavor spell then Prestidigitation would go a long way.
But that is my opinion what do you guys think?
Unfortunately, it seems like the Way of the Four Elements never really got there. Personally, I've struggled with the 5e Monk. It's very multi-role and not necessarily the best class when you're in a small party. The role-play elements are awesome though and the theatric with which a Four Elements monk can be flavored have endless potential with a flexible DM. A few people have tried re-doing the class on reddit homebrews - maybe pursuing one of those with your DM's blessing is worth a shot?
It's pretty weak tbh. The biggest problem is that it has no free abilities like the Open Hand and Shadow Monk. Way of 4 elements has to pay for everything and the ki costs are honestly too high. I really think it needs to be reworked like the ranger was in UA. The Way of 4 Elements could really use access to the Elemental Evil Player's Companion spells. I am not going to break down all of its deficiencies but if you simply take a look at the abilities that the other monks get and contrast them with the Way of 4 elements and it's high ki costs you can see where the subclass went wrong. The Way of 4 elements is essentially an impotent sorcerer monk multiclass. With that being said, I admit that almost all of the other subclasses are decent and viable. The only two in the PHB that I think are subpar are the Beast Master and Way of 4 Elements.
I think it was a first attempt at resurrecting Wu Jen, focus on mobility and evocation damage to make it more interesting. Now that the Mystic has Wu Jen it would be nice to see more WoTFE disciplines which they could easily add via Unearthed Arcana. I was hoping maybe some wood and metal related abilities.
So far they don't really seemed to be interested in re balancing anything aside from the Ranger. The Wild Magic Sorcerer, the way of the four elements Monk, some of the Bards stuff and likely more I don't know could all use a touch up. But those are boring compared to a fresh new option.
I agree that the Way of the Four Elements Monk and Wild Magic Sorcerer are underpowered, but what kind of Bard stuff are you talking about? Everyone says that Bards are underpowered but they have such a wide variety of use that I don't see how they can be overlooked
College of Valor is a bit iffy as a melee option is rather weak. Mainly because you lack things to do as a bonus action or reaction aside from your bardic inspiration. You don't get a your second/extra attack later then most, the way to buff your attacks works against you helping your party meaning you are either gimp your damage by holding on the inspiration die for a tight situation or blow them to boost your own damage and due to the lack of bonus actions and reactions you can end up in the weird case of standing in melee to cast something and depending on the DM it might mean putting your Focus/Instrument as risk (because let's face it a lute will get damaged if you get hit by an orc while holding it). It gets fixed with levels, but it takes till level 14 till somewhat be okay.
As for college of valor it is okay, just not combat oriented, could us some more perks between levels as you feel like getting empty levels at points.
The stuff in Sword coasts guide they got was just background dressing leaving them with a rather low amount of options.
Four elements monk is not as powerful as the others but it is more versatile to me.
Besides, all the classes are not meant to be balanced in combat. Combat is just 1/3 of the game.
I'd prefer to see the 4 Elements Monk (Avatar) turn into a specialized Elemental Monk which would need expanded options for abilities.
Treat it like maneuvers from Battle Master. I choose Water Monk. I get to choose from a number of water-centric abilities. As I level up I get opportunities to choose more water based abilities. Eventually perhaps I gain access to another element. and a few of those abilities.
This means I could create a Water/Earth Monk or a Water/Air Monk maybe even a Water/Fire Monk (though opposing elements should be more difficult to master).
With expanded options at each level and within each elemental discipline that means monks will not be copies of each other with access to all the same skills. Even within the same discipline there would be variances based on player choice.
They bring near no out of combat and very low RP wise either. You are a monk that can do Prestidigitation and that is about it. Gaining things like shape earth/fire/water out of combat would be a big thing already. How ever wizard decided that to cost Ki which way of the four elements monks already don't have enough off.
Here a homebrewed version I found which I am thinking about playing for a future game.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1Uyo2QplUjjelNJMmlEX0ZXRTA
Some of the abilities have KI and non KI power affects which is a nice twist to some of the abilities.
I think the Four Elements Monk is great in concept. It is the Monk's version of Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster with a bit of an advantage.
The four elements monk can:
The problem with four elements monk is that it doesn't feel very good to play. Examples of my problems with it:
Overall this is a great conception with lots of potential. It needs more competitive choices that help with what the monk is good at.
I had a player in my PotA game who wanted to play an Avatar-like character as well, but instead of the useless "Elemental Attunement" discipline I gave her access to all 4 elemental cantrips from the PotA book (Control Flames, Gust, Mold Earth, and Shape Water). This seemed to "help" a little, but the class was still pretty weak (both in and out of combat), especially compared to the other options. I think she's only EVER used Water Whip, and even then it was like 2-MAYBE-3x total.
The Wu Jen Mystic in the Unearthed Arcana is everything that I wish the WotFE Monk was (with the exception of the Mastery of Wood and Earth). It truly is everything you'd want your Avatar-like character to be.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
So, I'm gonna buck the trend a bit. At low levels, I'll agree 4e monks are way underpowered. But, after lvl 6 I think it starts evening out. At lvl 11, 4e monk is pretty good. Not better than other monks, but pretty good.
They are the Warlock of the Monk subclasses. Yes, you can only use their special abilities a few times before needing a recharge, but that recharge is on a short rest. Do you have to be more strategic with your Ki use? Yes. But in exchange you get all 4 elemental controls in one ability that's free (Elemental Attunement), 1/3rd spellcaster progression, Nova abilities (Water Whip and Fist of Unbroken Air have no Ki caps), and at lvl 11 the greatest Monk spell in Fly.
Honestly, if nothing else 4e prevents Stun spamming and forces creative playstyles. Getting everything back on a short rest evens it out to me once you have 6 Ki points as long as you aren't trying to blow them all in every fight. 4e more than the others is extremely unforgiving for poor Ki use planning.
I've so far have been enjoying my four elements monk. Yeah, I end up running out of Ki points in some of our fights, but we always manage a short rest. Fist of Unbroken Air has been great for fights on the airship we've been traveling on as well as keeping enemies in the area of effect spells of our wizard.
I've been playing with the idea that Wot4E monks can get Wis mod additional Ki, which could net them anywhere from 4-8 ki at 3rd level, but only 25 ki at 20. So far its been going well, but I don't have anyone to abuse it which makes knowing the full impact a bit more difficult.
See, I think THAT'S the problem with this subclass: the lack of options. For what it's SUPPOSED to be you get so few disciplines that it's relatively "meh".
Like, as a budding "master" of the four elements, you basically have one main ability (probably Water Whip or Fist of Unbroken Air ) and the remainder is the same amount of mastery as a level 1 spellcaster (you get the elemental version of prestidigitation).
You get a new one 3 levels later, then 5, then 6. So your mastery consists of a maximum of 5 abilities, which aren't really that varied (and certainly aren't better than anything a level 9 spellcaster couldn't perform).
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Let's remind that a monk is first and foremost a fighter-like class. It is quite normal to have a very limited access to spells (or spell-like abilities).
Open Hand Technique allows you to knock a target prone, push it up to 15 feet, or make it so it can't take a reaction when you use your Flurry of Blows, all without expending more ki points. Wholeness of Body lets you heal yourself, again without expending ki points. Tranquility gives you the sanctuary spell, without spending ki points. Quivering Palm is the only feature of an Open Hand monk that requires you to spend ki points (3), but it does it when you use a melee attack and either kills the target or deals 55 (10d10) damage. For reference: Breath of Winter (the highest damage dealing ability) requires double the ki points (6) and only deals 20 (8d8) on a failed save and 10 (4d8) on a successful one, granted that's AoE damage, but it requires twice as many ki points and doesn't have a save-or-die mechanic.
Shadow Arts gives you the ability to cast darkness, darkvision, pass without trace, and silence for 2 ki points, which are/can be far more beneficial than the ONE ability you get from Four Elements. Shadow Step allows you to travel 60 feet and gives you advantage on your melee attack all without expending ki points. Cloak of Shadows gives you free casts of invisibility so long as you aren't in bright light. And Opportunist lets you get free hits against an enemy.
Both of these traditions help you make better melee attacks and give you benefits that don't require you to use your ki points. All of the Way of the Four Elements abilities require you to spend your ki points, and again only one of these abilities supplements your ability to deal melee damage in the form of a 10 foot reach; which can be a hindrance since opportunity attacks only happen when they move out of your reach in 5e, not when they move out of a space you threaten. Situationally Water Whip and Fist of Unbroken Air can be good for controlling the battlefield, but So can Open Hand Technique or Shadow Step and neither of those abilities require you to spend more ki points (though Open Hand Technique is a part of Flurry of Blows, which DOES require Ki points).
And for those who are defending the tradition based on getting Elemental Attunement: it's just prestidigitation. Let's not act like it doesn't get replaced immediately at 6th level with literally ANYTHING else available.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.