That will do the opposite. People will still use what spells are left to optimize their non-spell centric class aspects.
What you maybe wnat to do is tigten the origins spell affiliations so that instead of a standard sorceror spell list, and certain origons potentially adding some spells to it; the origin replaces/exchanges certain spells to bring the overall list closer into alignment with the point of having that origin; so a fey bloodline would add more charm spells in but also remove some blaster spells, and a red draconic origin would add more fire-type spells in, but remove all the acid and poison and cold ones out; etc. so that what you are left with is a tighter spell selection around the flavor of your origin type.
Gonna hard disagree here. They just need more spells known, whether mandated or chosen. Wizards just need to really lean into the whole customise their spells thing. What we have is a good start but they need a larger selection of metamagic to pick from, and more slots to fill with them. A boost to sorcery points or a means to recover some on a short rest would be welcome too. Slap on a "regain proficiency bonus sorcery points on a short rest" and that will make people much more willing to lean into the fantasy of a sorcerer.
They just need to turn the thing that makes a sorcerer different up to 11.
Sorcerers need a tight concept. They are like magical mutants. So, we’re talking about Ice Man, the Human Torch, Nightcrawler, etc. The class earns a spot in core only when this tight concept is maintained. However, rather than select spells around a tight concept, most players choose spells to optmize. I’m not sure how rules can be rewritten to change that.
I always got the impression that this was the idea, yeah. But the 5e Warlock can get way closer, with invocations like x-ray vision or spider climbing. Their list of superpowers and weird mutations is way more diverse than what Sorcerers can get. At least the new Sorcerous Origins are getting flavor tables, but I mean that's bare minimum, right?
Sorcerers need a tight concept. They are like magical mutants. So, we’re talking about Ice Man, the Human Torch, Nightcrawler, etc. The class earns a spot in core only when this tight concept is maintained. However, rather than select spells around a tight concept, most players choose spells to optmize. I’m not sure how rules can be rewritten to change that.
I always got the impression that this was the idea, yeah. But the 5e Warlock can get way closer, with invocations like x-ray vision or spider climbing. Their list of superpowers and weird mutations is way more diverse than what Sorcerers can get. At least the new Sorcerous Origins are getting flavor tables, but I mean that's bare minimum, right?
I don’t think Warlocks are as flexible as you do. It seems to me that they either attack with Eldritch Blast or are Hexblades.
Sorcerers need a tight concept. They are like magical mutants. So, we’re talking about Ice Man, the Human Torch, Nightcrawler, etc. The class earns a spot in core only when this tight concept is maintained. However, rather than select spells around a tight concept, most players choose spells to optmize. I’m not sure how rules can be rewritten to change that.
I always got the impression that this was the idea, yeah. But the 5e Warlock can get way closer, with invocations like x-ray vision or spider climbing. Their list of superpowers and weird mutations is way more diverse than what Sorcerers can get. At least the new Sorcerous Origins are getting flavor tables, but I mean that's bare minimum, right?
Post-Tasha's you can do a pretty viable psychic sorcerer, and elemental blaster has always worked. Harder to find a good concept that includes Polymorph and that extends properly over 20 levels in terms of spell selection though, and Polymorph is just crazy useful.
edit: I've been thinking about a witchcraft flavour sorcerer and Polymorph would certainly fit. The irony is that theme-wise witchcraft would be a typical warlock concept and warlocks do get a good number of relevant spells, but they don't get Polymorph (have to wait for True Polymorph) and sorcerers still have a wider selection of spells I feel are appropriate (especially Divine Souls, who are a really good thematic fit too).
I think the biggest problem is the low limit on the number of spells known. The sorceror max’s out at 15 which is the same as the Paladin can prepare. The Eldritch knight and arcane trickster can each learn 13 spells and only the ranger is significantly lower at 11 max. That is ridiculous. The other known spell full caster is the Bard who gets 22. I would move the sorceror (and the bard) up to 1 new spell learned each level for 20 spells + 1 spell known/learned/invented for each bonus point of charisma so a max of 25 spells known. I would also give them a additional sorcery point for each charisma bonus point for a max of 25 sorcery points. Then add in some of the Wizard school abilities like the sculpt spells ability of the evoker as additional metamagic options they could take.
In addition to an expanded spell list, like Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul sorcerers, with the ability to swap those spells out, I really think certain metamagic options should actually be class features. Maybe Empowered Spell and Heightened Spell could be class features gained at certain levels and usable CHA or Proficiency Bonus times per long rest with the option to use sorcery points to use it more.
In addition to an expanded spell list, like Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul sorcerers, with the ability to swap those spells out, I really think certain metamagic options should actually be class features. Maybe Empowered Spell and Heightened Spell could be class features gained at certain levels and usable CHA or Proficiency Bonus times per long rest with the option to use sorcery points to use it more.
And there needs to be more metamagic options.
I'd quite like to see each subclass having its own unique metamagic option. Something you gain automatically at level 3 on top of the two you pick from the standard list.
In addition to an expanded spell list, like Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul sorcerers, with the ability to swap those spells out, I really think certain metamagic options should actually be class features. Maybe Empowered Spell and Heightened Spell could be class features gained at certain levels and usable CHA or Proficiency Bonus times per long rest with the option to use sorcery points to use it more.
And there needs to be more metamagic options.
I'd quite like to see each subclass having its own unique metamagic option. Something you gain automatically at level 3 on top of the two you pick from the standard list.
This. 100% this. Make the classes features match the subclass. Have the draconic sorcerer get metamagic that lets them boost the spells that match their element. Perhaps spend sorcery points to add dice to a roll. Or make their spells of that element harder to resist.
You could have wild magic have an option to force a wild magic surge. Or have a random metamagic with a table of 6-8 potential effects it could give the spell.
storm could have a metamagics to arc lightning or thunder spells to hit other targets or sculpt the shape of the spells.
shadow feels like it it should have the ability to afflict status effects with sorcery points on spells. Have spells that turn light out in their targets space on hit. Or apply debuffs.
there could be a LOT of fun to be had that would keep them a full caster with their identity as someone who has coloured their magic with their origin.
Giving subclasses special ways to use metamagic would make a lot of sense, but I think I'd rather see more focus on using the sorcery points to lean into the nature of their bloodline/heritage/whatever. Metamagic would tie it too much to their spell casting instead imo. There's only so much you can do by modifying spells but there's a lot other cool things you could do otherwise.
Now they already did something along those lines by giving each subclass a special way to use sorcery points, but they could lean even more into it. Giving Draconic Sorcerers resistance when they dealt the according damage is a bit tame and feels like an afterthought. Why not let them transform even further for a short time? Give them claws that deal elemental damage, even more improved AC (higher base value or scale with DEX+CON), increase their size, the according resistance and ignoring enemy resistance. Really lean into becoming part dragon. The permanent things they already get are great but lets turn it to 11 temporarily and at some resource cost. Of course they probably shouldn't get all those things right away. Progression is key. Let this feature grow stronger as the character levels up. Maybe just the claws at first, then the resistance gets added and the AC gets boosted, next they get to ignore the enemy's resistance according to their bloodline and finally they also grow as if enlarge got casted on them as well.
Suddenly you aren't just any caster with a thing for fire spells (or whatever you picked), with optional wings and scales that barely matter at level 20 anymore (a bit of exaggeration here obviously). You're a huge humanoid dragon with terrible claws, thick scales and fire that can even burn demons (or whatever you picked). Concerned about not keeping up with the Wizard? Well he might still have all those fancy spells with virtually infinite utility, but he'd have to cast half a page of buffing spells and potentially invest in feats (elemental adept) to become a hulking, flying, tanking, in melee shredding monster that can still cast high level spells.
The same goes for the other bloodlines obviously. Most of their special sorcery point use is rather tame and barely worth mentioning. One could do so much more to drive home they aren't just any other spell casting human or whatever other race you fancy.
I always kind of felt like Sorcs were solid already but needed just a few buffs.
Like, let them pick up 1-2 more cantrips as they level (especially since they have a very strict number of spells known), another meta-magic, maybe a sorc point or two, and make it 1 spell known per level instead of a max of 15. Maybe then throw in the option to have each subclass get access to some way to enhance that spell list (like Dragonblood getting to add Dragon's Breath as an 'always equipped' spell) and give them some better bonuses and you're good.
Like, for Wild Magic, your baseline ability is a free advantage once per LR, which is nice, but from then on... It only kicks in when the DM REMEMBERS/CARES to make you roll. Even if you want to complain about having bad stuff the fact is that you're just a sorc with nothing special going on so long as the DM either forgets or intentionally avoids it. No flavor, no fun, nothing. If the player could trigger it off at-will or it auto-triggered when you rolled a nat 1 it would be SO much more... well... Existent. And to top it off your level 14 upgrade is focused on this and ONLY this. So if it isn't triggering through forgetfulness/GM choice it's literally worthless. Even if they just made it so that you could choose when to trigger it off (instead of having it be random) or made it so you could reroll any roll it would make it much more viable and actually doing something.
It feels like WotC thought that the flexibility was SUCH a good boon that sorcs had to suck everywhere else, but overlooked how good twinned metamagic was. Can we get that as just, like, a baseline ability for sorcs? Cause basically everybody picks it because it's just so good in general. No point in having it if everybody picks it.
Bringing back the earlier but scaling capstone idea and the hurting yourself for more power idea, a couple concepts.
Sorcerous Restoration: when you short rest regain proficiency sorcery points, up to your maximum.
(Pretty functional as is, but obviously means a new capstone is needed)
Channel vitality: As a minor action expend a hit die to regain sorcery points (equal to the roll? CON modifier? PB?)
(Probably more thematic if sorc is moved to CON caster)
*had a thought on an alternate take on channel vitality as I was wrapping up the post: when casting a spell you have applied metamagic to you may spend a hit die instead of paying the SP
Bringing back the earlier but scaling capstone idea and the hurting yourself for more power idea, a couple concepts.
Sorcerous Restoration: when you short rest regain proficiency sorcery points, up to your maximum.
(Pretty functional as is, but obviously means a new capstone is needed)
Channel vitality: As a minor action expend a hit die to regain sorcery points (equal to the roll? CON modifier? PB?)
(Probably more thematic if sorc is moved to CON caster)
*had a thought on an alternate take on channel vitality as I was wrapping up the post: when casting a spell you have applied metamagic to you may spend a hit die instead of paying the SP
I like the idea of spending a hit die instead of SP for metamagic. But wonder if that’s too powerful (like giving you double the SP)
To my mind the problem is obvious. While more metamagic and sorcery points would certainly help the real problem is a severely limited selection - tied with the Paladin’s prepared spells, clearly better than the ranger’s measly 11 known and slightly superior to the the third casters 13 known and 3/4 cantrips. Raise the sorceror’s known spells to between 20-25 and they become a completely different character.
3E Psion: 36 powers known, 5 psionics feats, upto 393 psionic strength points, metamagic and powers both use PSPs hence the large number.
before the sorceror existed as a separate subclass the psion, optional as it was, was the only points based known caster. They basically killed it and replaced it with the sorceror then nerfed the sorceror by super limiting it’s known spells so about all it can do is metablast a very limited selection of spells. The sorceror should be on a par with the Wizard, cleric and bard not some souped up half caster.
Wizard School of Evocation stole Overchannel right out from under Sorcerer.
This. Also how on earth is Sculpt Spell not available to sorcerers? That right there to me is one thing that needs to be fixed. Sculpt Spell is the most metamagic thing ever, but it's a *wizard* ability. I mean, come on.
In terms of fixes to sorcerers, one of the things that might work is giving them "wildcard" spell slots. These might work a bit like Shadow Evocation from 3.5e, where you can cast a spell that is able to replicate other sorcerer spells from the same school. This should cost sorcery points of course, but it plays into the theme that sorcerers can just break the usual rules when it comes to magic.
The other thing is doing more origins like the Divine Soul origin - giving the sorcerer access to spells from non-Arcane class lists is a good way to make them different to the Wizard.
To my mind the problem is obvious. While more metamagic and sorcery points would certainly help the real problem is a severely limited selection - tied with the Paladin’s prepared spells, clearly better than the ranger’s measly 11 known and slightly superior to the the third casters 13 known and 3/4 cantrips. Raise the sorceror’s known spells to between 20-25 and they become a completely different character.
3E Psion: 36 powers known, 5 psionics feats, upto 393 psionic strength points, metamagic and powers both use PSPs hence the large number.
before the sorceror existed as a separate subclass the psion, optional as it was, was the only points based known caster. They basically killed it and replaced it with the sorceror then nerfed the sorceror by super limiting it’s known spells so about all it can do is metablast a very limited selection of spells. The sorceror should be on a par with the Wizard, cleric and bard not some souped up half caster.
And Tasha’s Sorcerers, like clockwork Soul went a long way in fixing that as they add an additional 10 spells known. So there is hope that 5.5E will do the same or more.
That would be sweet if the older subclasses got updated that way. Even 5 more spells known to get them up to 20 would be huge. 25 known would be more than enough.
To be honest, I'd be happy with a list of subclass spells like Clerics which are known automatically and a way to regain Sorcery Points on a short rest *without* sacrificing spell slots
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That will do the opposite. People will still use what spells are left to optimize their non-spell centric class aspects.
What you maybe wnat to do is tigten the origins spell affiliations so that instead of a standard sorceror spell list, and certain origons potentially adding some spells to it; the origin replaces/exchanges certain spells to bring the overall list closer into alignment with the point of having that origin; so a fey bloodline would add more charm spells in but also remove some blaster spells, and a red draconic origin would add more fire-type spells in, but remove all the acid and poison and cold ones out; etc. so that what you are left with is a tighter spell selection around the flavor of your origin type.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Gonna hard disagree here. They just need more spells known, whether mandated or chosen. Wizards just need to really lean into the whole customise their spells thing. What we have is a good start but they need a larger selection of metamagic to pick from, and more slots to fill with them. A boost to sorcery points or a means to recover some on a short rest would be welcome too. Slap on a "regain proficiency bonus sorcery points on a short rest" and that will make people much more willing to lean into the fantasy of a sorcerer.
They just need to turn the thing that makes a sorcerer different up to 11.
I always got the impression that this was the idea, yeah. But the 5e Warlock can get way closer, with invocations like x-ray vision or spider climbing. Their list of superpowers and weird mutations is way more diverse than what Sorcerers can get. At least the new Sorcerous Origins are getting flavor tables, but I mean that's bare minimum, right?
I don’t think Warlocks are as flexible as you do. It seems to me that they either attack with Eldritch Blast or are Hexblades.
Post-Tasha's you can do a pretty viable psychic sorcerer, and elemental blaster has always worked. Harder to find a good concept that includes Polymorph and that extends properly over 20 levels in terms of spell selection though, and Polymorph is just crazy useful.
edit: I've been thinking about a witchcraft flavour sorcerer and Polymorph would certainly fit. The irony is that theme-wise witchcraft would be a typical warlock concept and warlocks do get a good number of relevant spells, but they don't get Polymorph (have to wait for True Polymorph) and sorcerers still have a wider selection of spells I feel are appropriate (especially Divine Souls, who are a really good thematic fit too).
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I think the biggest problem is the low limit on the number of spells known. The sorceror max’s out at 15 which is the same as the Paladin can prepare. The Eldritch knight and arcane trickster can each learn 13 spells and only the ranger is significantly lower at 11 max. That is ridiculous. The other known spell full caster is the Bard who gets 22. I would move the sorceror (and the bard) up to 1 new spell learned each level for 20 spells + 1 spell known/learned/invented for each bonus point of charisma so a max of 25 spells known. I would also give them a additional sorcery point for each charisma bonus point for a max of 25 sorcery points. Then add in some of the Wizard school abilities like the sculpt spells ability of the evoker as additional metamagic options they could take.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
In addition to an expanded spell list, like Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul sorcerers, with the ability to swap those spells out, I really think certain metamagic options should actually be class features. Maybe Empowered Spell and Heightened Spell could be class features gained at certain levels and usable CHA or Proficiency Bonus times per long rest with the option to use sorcery points to use it more.
And there needs to be more metamagic options.
I'd quite like to see each subclass having its own unique metamagic option. Something you gain automatically at level 3 on top of the two you pick from the standard list.
This. 100% this. Make the classes features match the subclass. Have the draconic sorcerer get metamagic that lets them boost the spells that match their element. Perhaps spend sorcery points to add dice to a roll. Or make their spells of that element harder to resist.
You could have wild magic have an option to force a wild magic surge. Or have a random metamagic with a table of 6-8 potential effects it could give the spell.
storm could have a metamagics to arc lightning or thunder spells to hit other targets or sculpt the shape of the spells.
shadow feels like it it should have the ability to afflict status effects with sorcery points on spells. Have spells that turn light out in their targets space on hit. Or apply debuffs.
there could be a LOT of fun to be had that would keep them a full caster with their identity as someone who has coloured their magic with their origin.
Giving subclasses special ways to use metamagic would make a lot of sense, but I think I'd rather see more focus on using the sorcery points to lean into the nature of their bloodline/heritage/whatever. Metamagic would tie it too much to their spell casting instead imo. There's only so much you can do by modifying spells but there's a lot other cool things you could do otherwise.
Now they already did something along those lines by giving each subclass a special way to use sorcery points, but they could lean even more into it. Giving Draconic Sorcerers resistance when they dealt the according damage is a bit tame and feels like an afterthought. Why not let them transform even further for a short time? Give them claws that deal elemental damage, even more improved AC (higher base value or scale with DEX+CON), increase their size, the according resistance and ignoring enemy resistance. Really lean into becoming part dragon. The permanent things they already get are great but lets turn it to 11 temporarily and at some resource cost. Of course they probably shouldn't get all those things right away. Progression is key. Let this feature grow stronger as the character levels up. Maybe just the claws at first, then the resistance gets added and the AC gets boosted, next they get to ignore the enemy's resistance according to their bloodline and finally they also grow as if enlarge got casted on them as well.
Suddenly you aren't just any caster with a thing for fire spells (or whatever you picked), with optional wings and scales that barely matter at level 20 anymore (a bit of exaggeration here obviously). You're a huge humanoid dragon with terrible claws, thick scales and fire that can even burn demons (or whatever you picked). Concerned about not keeping up with the Wizard? Well he might still have all those fancy spells with virtually infinite utility, but he'd have to cast half a page of buffing spells and potentially invest in feats (elemental adept) to become a hulking, flying, tanking, in melee shredding monster that can still cast high level spells.
The same goes for the other bloodlines obviously. Most of their special sorcery point use is rather tame and barely worth mentioning. One could do so much more to drive home they aren't just any other spell casting human or whatever other race you fancy.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
I always kind of felt like Sorcs were solid already but needed just a few buffs.
Like, let them pick up 1-2 more cantrips as they level (especially since they have a very strict number of spells known), another meta-magic, maybe a sorc point or two, and make it 1 spell known per level instead of a max of 15. Maybe then throw in the option to have each subclass get access to some way to enhance that spell list (like Dragonblood getting to add Dragon's Breath as an 'always equipped' spell) and give them some better bonuses and you're good.
Like, for Wild Magic, your baseline ability is a free advantage once per LR, which is nice, but from then on... It only kicks in when the DM REMEMBERS/CARES to make you roll. Even if you want to complain about having bad stuff the fact is that you're just a sorc with nothing special going on so long as the DM either forgets or intentionally avoids it. No flavor, no fun, nothing. If the player could trigger it off at-will or it auto-triggered when you rolled a nat 1 it would be SO much more... well... Existent. And to top it off your level 14 upgrade is focused on this and ONLY this. So if it isn't triggering through forgetfulness/GM choice it's literally worthless. Even if they just made it so that you could choose when to trigger it off (instead of having it be random) or made it so you could reroll any roll it would make it much more viable and actually doing something.
It feels like WotC thought that the flexibility was SUCH a good boon that sorcs had to suck everywhere else, but overlooked how good twinned metamagic was. Can we get that as just, like, a baseline ability for sorcs? Cause basically everybody picks it because it's just so good in general. No point in having it if everybody picks it.
Bringing back the earlier but scaling capstone idea and the hurting yourself for more power idea, a couple concepts.
Sorcerous Restoration: when you short rest regain proficiency sorcery points, up to your maximum.
(Pretty functional as is, but obviously means a new capstone is needed)
Channel vitality: As a minor action expend a hit die to regain sorcery points (equal to the roll? CON modifier? PB?)
(Probably more thematic if sorc is moved to CON caster)
*had a thought on an alternate take on channel vitality as I was wrapping up the post: when casting a spell you have applied metamagic to you may spend a hit die instead of paying the SP
Wizard School of Evocation stole Overchannel right out from under Sorcerer.
I like the idea of spending a hit die instead of SP for metamagic. But wonder if that’s too powerful (like giving you double the SP)
Wizard (L20) : 46+ known spells + 5+ cantrips (with a cantrip book), 25 prepped spells, 22 slots
Bard (L20): 22 known spells + 4 cantrips, 22 slots, light armor and some martial ability
Sorceror (L20): 15 known spells + 6 cantrips, 22 slots, 4 types of metamagic, sorcery points
Cleric/Druid (L20): 50+ known spells, 4/5 cantrips, bonus spells, 25 prepared spells, 22 slots
To my mind the problem is obvious. While more metamagic and sorcery points would certainly help the real problem is a severely limited selection - tied with the Paladin’s prepared spells, clearly better than the ranger’s measly 11 known and slightly superior to the the third casters 13 known and 3/4 cantrips. Raise the sorceror’s known spells to between 20-25 and they become a completely different character.
for comparison:
2e Psion: all 6 Disciplines (areas) 10 sciences ( higher level equivalents) 25 Devotions (lower level equivalents) 5 defenses (cantrip equivalents?)
3E Psion: 36 powers known, 5 psionics feats, upto 393 psionic strength points, metamagic and powers both use PSPs hence the large number.
before the sorceror existed as a separate subclass the psion, optional as it was, was the only points based known caster. They basically killed it and replaced it with the sorceror then nerfed the sorceror by super limiting it’s known spells so about all it can do is metablast a very limited selection of spells. The sorceror should be on a par with the Wizard, cleric and bard not some souped up half caster.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
This. Also how on earth is Sculpt Spell not available to sorcerers? That right there to me is one thing that needs to be fixed. Sculpt Spell is the most metamagic thing ever, but it's a *wizard* ability. I mean, come on.
In terms of fixes to sorcerers, one of the things that might work is giving them "wildcard" spell slots. These might work a bit like Shadow Evocation from 3.5e, where you can cast a spell that is able to replicate other sorcerer spells from the same school. This should cost sorcery points of course, but it plays into the theme that sorcerers can just break the usual rules when it comes to magic.
The other thing is doing more origins like the Divine Soul origin - giving the sorcerer access to spells from non-Arcane class lists is a good way to make them different to the Wizard.
And Tasha’s Sorcerers, like clockwork Soul went a long way in fixing that as they add an additional 10 spells known. So there is hope that 5.5E will do the same or more.
That would be sweet if the older subclasses got updated that way. Even 5 more spells known to get them up to 20 would be huge. 25 known would be more than enough.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
To be honest, I'd be happy with a list of subclass spells like Clerics which are known automatically and a way to regain Sorcery Points on a short rest *without* sacrificing spell slots