for 5.5, it’s pretty much stuck with being a full caster. For 6e i would prefer to see a half-caster, and use a chassis similar to what we have now as a psion.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
One thing that I personally would love to see is the ability of the Sorcerer to deliberately shed their blood (ie. cut themselves) to get sorcery points. They should also be Con casters.
I don't know what game you were playing, but the Sorcerer was a core classs in 3e. That was the first edition to have them. Psions were in an expansion book (ie. not core)
Psions and psionics were always sort of expansions but they were the first to have known spells and a point system for casting as well as for something like metamagic. Psionics was introduced back in 2e and then a 3 e version was released later. Your right 3e had the sorceror and it was, I suspect, part of the reason the psion never really caught on big time. That, and the fact that psionics for some strange reason was supposed to happen 10x faster than spells which everyone I played with just dumped back to working at the same speed.as for which game I was playing at one time or another I played all the versions so they sort of roll together over time, especially since I don’t have all the books any more.
Psionics existed in 1e. Psionacists were introduced in 2e. The 10x faster thing was in 1e, not in 2e. Psionics have never caught on because they’ve never been core.
I think I've been changing my mind a little about this. While I still don't necessarily want a half-caster instead of a full-caster by default, I think a subclass that is half-caster and makes those trades for martial improvement would be a great idea. This way you can have a varient sorceror that would fit nicely into a low magic campaign that does have a greater martial emphasis. -dito for bards.
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Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Psionics existed in 1e. Psionacists were introduced in 2e. The 10x faster thing was in 1e, not in 2e. Psionics have never caught on because they’ve never been core.
Yeah it sort of did “exist” but the first book I’m aware of is the 2e psionics book. Agreed they were never really core but they were the first “known caster” core or not I believe, when I get time now that I have the 1e PHB I’ll look up the bard to make sure.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
You really have to have a good reason to totally reinvent the Vancian magic system for one class. And I don't think psionics has ever really had one.
Some of the 5e designs reinvent it slightly. Mystic Arcanum and Fey Touched are examples of features that let you cast a specific spell outside of the normal rules. Rune Carver, Wild Shape, and Ki are examples of powers with their own resource pools that don't directly mimic spells. Font of Magic is a feature that sort of transforms the resource economy of spell slots. All of these features are a lot smaller in scope than spellcasting. Spellcasting is, and always will be, the largest and most complicated thing in the game, because it's used in some way by every single class. And with every subsequent source book it gets bigger. When you make psionic powers into their own system, it's necessarily smaller in scope than spellcasting, which makes diehard psionics fans angry. But there's just no way it could possibly catch up at this point. If it did, it would be horrible. It would be like an entire two books just about psionic powers. This is why they've been retrofitting psionics into existing molds such as the Psi Knight or the Aberrant Mind.
The Vancian Magic system sucks eggs and Psionics ≠ Spellcasting, those are good enough reasons as any. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand, Sorcerers.
for 5.5, it’s pretty much stuck with being a full caster. For 6e i would prefer to see a half-caster, and use a chassis similar to what we have now as a psion.
I'd also like to see the bard as a half caster. It's meant to be the 'jack of all trades' class.
I didn't think very deeply about it and also didn't read the whole thread yet so it might already gotten mentioned but I thought it could be nice to give Sorcerers a bigger hit dice than Wizards to drive home that they didn't just sit in a study all day practicing magic theory. That would also help builds that want to use GFB and such a bit without needing to multiclass.
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I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
for 5.5, it’s pretty much stuck with being a full caster. For 6e i would prefer to see a half-caster, and use a chassis similar to what we have now as a psion.
I'd also like to see the bard as a half caster. It's meant to be the 'jack of all trades' class.
But in 5e it's just a wizard with a guitar.
Perhaps also as a specific college or two where your subclass abilities involve trading away some caster power for increases in other areas of potential; but not necessarily as a base class change: unless full caster is a college option where you trade other things away for more access to spell power.
My main character is always a bard. I've been playing them since 3e. My next is going to be a college of Lore one, and I must say, I am looking forward to having the Wish spell ;-)s
The Vancian Magic system sucks eggs and Psionics ≠ Spellcasting, those are good enough reasons as any. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand, Sorcerers.
Not quite, my points were never that psionics were great or that the they should be brought back as a class. My points were: 1: the 5e sorceror is a known caster with a points based metamagic system. 2. the first class to have known spells and a points based system was the psion. 3. Maybe, by looking back at it to see what was good (and bad) we can find things that can be used to improve the sorceror and perhaps things that could be avoided because we’ve seen they don’t work.
The sorceror clearly needs “something”. For 5.5 it has to be backward compatible so it can’t change too much. Before we go reinventing the wheel maybe we should take a look at earlier versions for some guidance On what did and didn’t work. Psionics showed up in 1e, and disappeared with the end of 3.5 - that means it survived for about 20 years so clunky as it sometimes was it must have had something working or it would have died an early death. How can we use that to guide improvements to the sorceror. one thing I can think of is to convert the sorceror to a verbal only or verbal and somatic only caster. As a known caster the spells are either an expression of an innate talent or a strong will, in either case why should they need physical objects as focus centers for a spell effect? May be one of the changes is a class ability from L1 to ignore the material component requirements for any of their spells.
The Vancian Magic system sucks eggs and Psionics ≠ Spellcasting, those are good enough reasons as any. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand, Sorcerers.
Not quite, my points were never that psionics were great or that the they should be brought back as a class. My points were: 1: the 5e sorceror is a known caster with a points based metamagic system. 2. the first class to have known spells and a points based system was the psion. 3. Maybe, by looking back at it to see what was good (and bad) we can find things that can be used to improve the sorceror and perhaps things that could be avoided because we’ve seen they don’t work.
The sorceror clearly needs “something”. For 5.5 it has to be backward compatible so it can’t change too much. Before we go reinventing the wheel maybe we should take a look at earlier versions for some guidance On what did and didn’t work. Psionics showed up in 1e, and disappeared with the end of 3.5 - that means it survived for about 20 years so clunky as it sometimes was it must have had something working or it would have died an early death. How can we use that to guide improvements to the sorceror. one thing I can think of is to convert the sorceror to a verbal only or verbal and somatic only caster. As a known caster the spells are either an expression of an innate talent or a strong will, in either case why should they need physical objects as focus centers for a spell effect? May be one of the changes is a class ability from L1 to ignore the material component requirements for any of their spells.
The Psion never knew spells, Psionics ≠ Spellcasting.
The fact that we’re stuck with Spellcasting as a 🐂💩 stand-in for Psionics this edition is a travesty.
Hi OP here, quick question I don't know if I can edit the poll at this point, but if I can I'm considering adding, 4: something like Psionics were, and 5: entirely subclass dependent.
Do ya'll think this is a good idea, or should I just let those be covered by by 3: Something completely different.
Hi OP here, quick question I don't know if I can edit the poll at this point, but if I can I'm considering adding, 4: something like Psionics were, and 5: entirely subclass dependent.
Do ya'll think this is a good idea, or should I just let those be covered by by 3: Something completely different.
Now that your poll is out there, editing it midstream is guaranteed to get you unreliable results.
for 5.5, it’s pretty much stuck with being a full caster. For 6e i would prefer to see a half-caster, and use a chassis similar to what we have now as a psion.
I'd also like to see the bard as a half caster. It's meant to be the 'jack of all trades' class.
But in 5e it's just a wizard with a guitar.
The problem with Bard as half caster is that half casters only really feel good when they are mainly martials and use the casting half to support that. Bards really aren't a martial class at all though. They'd need something like Warlocks so they can sling cantrips around to pull their weight but that wouldn't exactly help with moving away from feeling like a caster (just worse then).
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I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
As far as the poll just let it be. I may be the only one that sees some potential to reviewing psionics for ideas on improving the sorceror.
As far as the Bard goes I have to agree that it needs to stay a full caster. It’s basically an enchanter via song and story. It’s forte shouldn’t be melee even if it has some melee capability. While the bard should definitely have more melee capability than the sorceror neither should be melee centered or melee dominant. The bard should be like a rogue without the backstab and the more martial build(s) might even have a second attack and access to cantrips like GFB and BB. The sorceror should have access to light armor and simple weapons but not GFB/BB.
In 3.5 they had the idea that there was a secret third character archetype: the skill monkey. Rogues and Bards were skill monkeys. Rogues were the martial one, Bards were the arcane one. You're kinda bad in combat, but you have a lot of skills. Yay!
It wasn't a huge hit. I guess some people probably enjoyed it. But honestly, skills can basically be overcome with spells in every circumstance.
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for 5.5, it’s pretty much stuck with being a full caster. For 6e i would prefer to see a half-caster, and use a chassis similar to what we have now as a psion.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
One thing that I personally would love to see is the ability of the Sorcerer to deliberately shed their blood (ie. cut themselves) to get sorcery points. They should also be Con casters.
I don't know what game you were playing, but the Sorcerer was a core classs in 3e. That was the first edition to have them. Psions were in an expansion book (ie. not core)
Psions and psionics were always sort of expansions but they were the first to have known spells and a point system for casting as well as for something like metamagic. Psionics was introduced back in 2e and then a 3 e version was released later. Your right 3e had the sorceror and it was, I suspect, part of the reason the psion never really caught on big time. That, and the fact that psionics for some strange reason was supposed to happen 10x faster than spells which everyone I played with just dumped back to working at the same speed.as for which game I was playing at one time or another I played all the versions so they sort of roll together over time, especially since I don’t have all the books any more.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Psionics existed in 1e. Psionacists were introduced in 2e. The 10x faster thing was in 1e, not in 2e. Psionics have never caught on because they’ve never been core.
I think I've been changing my mind a little about this. While I still don't necessarily want a half-caster instead of a full-caster by default, I think a subclass that is half-caster and makes those trades for martial improvement would be a great idea. This way you can have a varient sorceror that would fit nicely into a low magic campaign that does have a greater martial emphasis. -dito for bards.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Yeah it sort of did “exist” but the first book I’m aware of is the 2e psionics book. Agreed they were never really core but they were the first “known caster” core or not I believe, when I get time now that I have the 1e PHB I’ll look up the bard to make sure.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
It's always been clunky and half-baked as well.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
You really have to have a good reason to totally reinvent the Vancian magic system for one class. And I don't think psionics has ever really had one.
Some of the 5e designs reinvent it slightly. Mystic Arcanum and Fey Touched are examples of features that let you cast a specific spell outside of the normal rules. Rune Carver, Wild Shape, and Ki are examples of powers with their own resource pools that don't directly mimic spells. Font of Magic is a feature that sort of transforms the resource economy of spell slots. All of these features are a lot smaller in scope than spellcasting. Spellcasting is, and always will be, the largest and most complicated thing in the game, because it's used in some way by every single class. And with every subsequent source book it gets bigger. When you make psionic powers into their own system, it's necessarily smaller in scope than spellcasting, which makes diehard psionics fans angry. But there's just no way it could possibly catch up at this point. If it did, it would be horrible. It would be like an entire two books just about psionic powers. This is why they've been retrofitting psionics into existing molds such as the Psi Knight or the Aberrant Mind.
Why are we talking about psionics again?
The Vancian Magic system sucks eggs and Psionics ≠ Spellcasting, those are good enough reasons as any. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand, Sorcerers.
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I'd also like to see the bard as a half caster. It's meant to be the 'jack of all trades' class.
But in 5e it's just a wizard with a guitar.
I didn't think very deeply about it and also didn't read the whole thread yet so it might already gotten mentioned but I thought it could be nice to give Sorcerers a bigger hit dice than Wizards to drive home that they didn't just sit in a study all day practicing magic theory. That would also help builds that want to use GFB and such a bit without needing to multiclass.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Perhaps also as a specific college or two where your subclass abilities involve trading away some caster power for increases in other areas of potential; but not necessarily as a base class change: unless full caster is a college option where you trade other things away for more access to spell power.
My main character is always a bard. I've been playing them since 3e. My next is going to be a college of Lore one, and I must say, I am looking forward to having the Wish spell ;-)s
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Not quite, my points were never that psionics were great or that the they should be brought back as a class. My points were:
1: the 5e sorceror is a known caster with a points based metamagic system.
2. the first class to have known spells and a points based system was the psion.
3. Maybe, by looking back at it to see what was good (and bad) we can find things that can be used to improve the sorceror and perhaps things that could be avoided because we’ve seen they don’t work.
The sorceror clearly needs “something”. For 5.5 it has to be backward compatible so it can’t change too much. Before we go reinventing the wheel maybe we should take a look at earlier versions for some guidance On what did and didn’t work. Psionics showed up in 1e, and disappeared with the end of 3.5 - that means it survived for about 20 years so clunky as it sometimes was it must have had something working or it would have died an early death. How can we use that to guide improvements to the sorceror.
one thing I can think of is to convert the sorceror to a verbal only or verbal and somatic only caster. As a known caster the spells are either an expression of an innate talent or a strong will, in either case why should they need physical objects as focus centers for a spell effect? May be one of the changes is a class ability from L1 to ignore the material component requirements for any of their spells.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The Psion never knew spells, Psionics ≠ Spellcasting.
The fact that we’re stuck with Spellcasting as a 🐂💩 stand-in for Psionics this edition is a travesty.
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Epic Boons on DDB
Hi OP here, quick question I don't know if I can edit the poll at this point, but if I can I'm considering adding, 4: something like Psionics were, and 5: entirely subclass dependent.
Do ya'll think this is a good idea, or should I just let those be covered by by 3: Something completely different.
Now that your poll is out there, editing it midstream is guaranteed to get you unreliable results.
The problem with Bard as half caster is that half casters only really feel good when they are mainly martials and use the casting half to support that. Bards really aren't a martial class at all though. They'd need something like Warlocks so they can sling cantrips around to pull their weight but that wouldn't exactly help with moving away from feeling like a caster (just worse then).
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
As far as the poll just let it be. I may be the only one that sees some potential to reviewing psionics for ideas on improving the sorceror.
As far as the Bard goes I have to agree that it needs to stay a full caster. It’s basically an enchanter via song and story. It’s forte shouldn’t be melee even if it has some melee capability. While the bard should definitely have more melee capability than the sorceror neither should be melee centered or melee dominant. The bard should be like a rogue without the backstab and the more martial build(s) might even have a second attack and access to cantrips like GFB and BB. The sorceror should have access to light armor and simple weapons but not GFB/BB.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
In 3.5 they had the idea that there was a secret third character archetype: the skill monkey. Rogues and Bards were skill monkeys. Rogues were the martial one, Bards were the arcane one. You're kinda bad in combat, but you have a lot of skills. Yay!
It wasn't a huge hit. I guess some people probably enjoyed it. But honestly, skills can basically be overcome with spells in every circumstance.