Hi so bit of a weird time to ask this, but better late then never and all that, my question should be pretty clear with the title and such.
So would you rather stick with the current sorcerer, a full on caster with next to no melee capabilities and low utility but a whole lot of fire power. (Though in my opinion WOTC will never fully free it from the wizards shadow in this form)
The dndnext variant, a half caster and something of an endurance class, that's play style shifted the longer combat drew on. (To be clear I am not suggesting they perfectly port the dndnext version of the sorcerer just the core of it as a marathon runner of a class that shifted from caster to martial as combat went on, also to be honest this is my personal pick, I like the flavour and feel it holds a fascinating niche that the PHB sorcerer really lacks)
Something completely different, maybe a class with very basic abilities, rather then spells, which relies heavily on metamagic, or some other thing this is a lot harder for me to define.
So yeah, feel free to reply with your opinion on certain options and what they would like within 5e, or to just call me a dumbass if that's what you feel like doing today.
Problem: all currently existing sorcerer subclasses have to continue to work with the sorcerer base class in whatever they do in 2024. The Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul, from Tasha's Cauldron, grant an Expanded Spell List feature that requires the sorcerer to be a full-progression spellcaster.
Sorcerers cannot be anything but full-progression casters, which means that with the sole, single exception of the Aberrant Mind, they will always be worse wizards. Which is awful because I quite enjoy sorcerers from a thematic standpoint, but they offer essentially nothing a wizard cannot do while having five times the spell list.
Buff metamagic? Although I personally never like metamagic being somehow the sorcerer's domain, metamagic to me always seemed something that could be unlocked through the academic interrogation of magic, so would land with something Wizards would have access to.
I like the idea of Wizards being able to tap into magic through intensive intellectual inquiry and study ... and Sorcerers having a much more raw or intimate relationship with the weave. The execution of a Wizard who basically has almost "all the magic", and the Sorcerer being basically a reduced spell list CHR Wizard is disappointing, but I don't see this being "fixed" in Projekt D&D 2024 Red other than spreading the expanded spell list to the pre-Tasha's subclasses, which isn't a big fix and more a "gimme".
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Keep them full casters but lean in on their unique features. Their metamagic. Give them spells known lists and add some more sorcery points early, or a way to recover them. And make more interesting metamagics. hell I am not against giving them some real powerful metamagics for very high costs. 5 sorc points to max a damage roll. Have an option that gives attack roll spells an aoe that turn. there are so many things that could be fun ways to twist spells. And that’s what they are supposed to do. Bend the laws of magic. So let them do it in fun ways.
Not sure how this would affect backwards compatibility but keep them similar to how they are but make them CON casters (it’s literally in their blood) and add core class features based off of that. I can’t remember if it was city of villains or city of heroes MMO where there was a “class” that did more damage the lower their health got. Not saying they should do this but just an idea of what could be done. Like if they take damage equal to <insert formula here> they recover or gain a temporary sorcery point that lasts until the end of their next turn so they can use it or lose it. Something like that
Edit: and add sorcerer specific spells to their list.
Sorcerers cannot be anything but full-progression casters, which means that with the sole, single exception of the Aberrant Mind, they will always be worse wizards. Which is awful because I quite enjoy sorcerers from a thematic standpoint, but they offer essentially nothing a wizard cannot do while having five times the spell list.
To keep it very simple, WotC could double their sorcery points and give them twice as many metamagics (or even all of them, and right away, for that matter).
Buff metamagic? Although I personally never like metamagic being somehow the sorcerer's domain, metamagic to me always seemed something that could be unlocked through the academic interrogation of magic, so would land with something Wizards would have access to. I like the idea of Wizards being able to tap into magic through intensive intellectual inquiry and study ... and Sorcerers having a much more raw or intimate relationship with the weave.
Tie wizardly metamagic to spell slot level and sorcerly metamagic to sorcery points, and give wizards fewer of them, possibly from a restricted list.
I don't think it's true that 5e subclasses must work with whatever they come up with for classes in 5.5. When they say 5.5 will be backward-compatible, they mean you'll be able to play your 5e character in 5.5 content. They can't possibly mean 5 and 5.5 will mesh seamlessly. There would be no point to a new edition in that case.
Your 5e Battle Master will be playable in 5.5, but it might no longer be a legal build. It'll probably be under/overtuned for 5.5, but it'll work.
I don't think it's true that 5e subclasses must work with whatever they come up with for classes in 5.5. When they say 5.5 will be backward-compatible, they mean you'll be able to play your 5e character in 5.5 content. They can't possibly mean 5 and 5.5 will mesh seamlessly. There would be no point to a new edition in that case.
Your 5e Battle Master will be playable in 5.5, but it might no longer be a legal build. It'll probably be under/overtuned for 5.5, but it'll work.
Do you mean viable or balanced? By definition, if 5.5e is backwards compatible, a legal 5e build has to be legal in 5.5e too.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I mean viable as in it will function, but not necessarily balanced. "Backward compatible" can mean different things. 3e is not backward-compatible with 2e, because the fundamental mechanics behind the game are so different that you can't just run your 3e PC in 2e. You need to rebuild the PC using 2e rules, and get as close as you can.
Meanwhile, 3.5e is backward-compatible with 3e. You can run a RAW 3e PC in a 3.5e game, because the fundamental rules are the same. The 3e PC might violate some 3.5e rules, but that doesn't mean it won't work. It'll just be unbalanced.
They could easily make the 5.5 sorcerer a half-caster. It wouldn't prevent you from running the full-caster 5e sorcerer in a 5.5e game, but it wouldn't be "legal" (I mean like from an AL perspective). There would no longer be a full-caster sorcerer option in official D&D, but you can still use your old 5e sorc and the game will play fine. It might not be balanced, but it's compatible.
Of course, but that doesn't change the point. The whatever-it-is-update-edition-thing can certainly give us a new version of a class that is unlike the existing 5e version, and still claim to be backward-compatible, so long as the previous version of the class can function within the mechanics.
If I make a homebrew subclass here on DnDBeyond, it's (likely) compatible with RAW 5e without being legal.
What the whatever-it-is-update-edition-thing can't do is claim to be an update-edition-thing without making some changes. If it makes any change to a class, it means the RAW 5e version of that class is no longer the official version of the class. It might still work within the new update-edition-thing ruleset (since as I understand it that stuff isn't changing at a fundamental level), but WotC will (likely) no longer claim that RAW 5e version is balanced with regard to the new update-edition-thing's mindset. It'll effectively become homebrew.
I don't see the class as needing a huge amount of fixing, myself. My biggest gripe about the class is the very few spells known and the limitation on changing them. For a fun twist, to address this directly:
Spells known. Once every few days, (6 days -Proficiency Bonus) you can change a number of spells, equal to your Proficiency Bonus out for a different spell on the Sorcerer list. It would mean that at lower levels, you could swap spells every 4 days or so and change 2 at that time. As you leveled, you could change spells more often and more spells, scaling it, so it remained relevant. It addresses the short list of known spells at any given time, allowing the Sorcerer to remain useful, as your situations, encounters and group needs shift.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I'm in the camp that retroactively applying expanded spell lists to the pre-Tasha's subclasses would go a long way towards updating the sorcerer.
I also think more metamagic options available, more metamagic options in general, and more access to sorcery points would help too. Sorcerers' whole deal is flexibility, leveraging their natural abilities to do more with less, and I think the way to do that is either to make more metamagic options available earlier (all? Maybe! As stated before, you're still constrained by the amount of sorcery points available), or release new metamagic options and make lower level characters able to access 4-5 metamagics rather than a measly two. Honestly it would be really cool to have metamagics like "Change Shape" that alters the shape of an AOE spell allowing you to, say, shoot Web in a line instead of a circle. Essentially more ways to mess around with the building blocks of spells for more versatility despite a short spell list.
Speaking of things giving sorcerers greater versatility, I think it would be cool if sorcerers had the option of choosing between CHA, CON, or WIS for their casting stat, since I've never been satisfied with the "raw, natural ability=CHA" equation, and feel like the fiction people are often going for with sorcerers could fall under either of those stats equally. Not only that, but it would give you greater variation from one sorc to the next, which yes no other class really gets this, but I'd say that's the point. It would also turn the sorcerer into a multiclassing BEAST, but it kind of already is so might as well lean into the niche. I'd be willing to ax WIS sorcerers if people thought it'd be too OP, but it's not like there's only one WIS caster anyways. But I could be fine with just letting people choose between CHA and CON. Gives people a little more to do with CON anyways.
Another thing, and this is way more nit-picky, maybe instead of only getting 1 sorcery point per level, maybe you get something akin to a monk's unarmed defense, where your sorcery point pool equals your Proficiency bonus + CHA mod+ WIS mod, or maybe sorcery points equal your (Spell Save DC + your WIS/CON mod) ÷2 or something. Something that'll bump up the sorcery points without overdoing it.
Those are my thoughts.
*edit* one thing I'll mention from a game I'm running right now, is that in the past I've given the sorcerer in my party a bonus 2 sorcery points and allowed him to choose two new metamagics as a quest reward instead of treasure. Now he's able to use metamagic more often and has a lot more fun with it, and I haven't noticed it having an adverse effect on game balance.
My current Aberrant Mind sorcerer has the origin spells, the metamagic adept feat, a blood well vial and the DM lets me change one spell of the same level every long rest. None of those things have made my sorcerer overpowered (we are level 9). It has made it more fun and less work to play. It also helps define my character as a sorcerer, someone who can bend the laws of magic without having studied it like a wizard.
I would love to see any or all of those things become standard features, i.e. origin spells to give more flavor to your subclass, four metamagics to start with plus 2 more maybe when you hit level 8 instead of 10, an expanded spell list, a few extra sorcery points, some points can be gotten back after a short rest, and a limited ability to change out spells. so far none of these things have stepped on the wizard's toes.
I am a fan of giving sorcerers all the metamagics right away and then giving them real class features at the level they currently get new metamagics.
You are still very hard limited by sorcery points, but this way you might get to see more than just Quickened, Twinned, and Heightened in a game.
I also like the idea of introducing the capstone ability much earlier but in a weaker form and letting it build as you level.
This is pretty much what I'd like to see. Having 8 different options is all well and good until you realize you have 3-10 sorcery points without blowing spell slots to create more(since most campaigns don't go past level 10).
Either that or give unique metamagic options as subclass features while in addition giving expanded spell lists to all current subclassses as well as new ones.
I can't see them changing the sorcerer that much in 5.5, as ultimately it has to be compatible with 5e still. Sure I'd have loved the playtest sorcerer over what we got, but it's too late now.
Also still extremely bitter how the sorcerer was meant to be the arcane half caster paladin/ranger equivalent, and when it got reverted to its current state that gap never got filled. Leaving this edition missing that niche.
I honestly don't know what sorcerer is meant to be anymore. I preferred metamagic as a feat which is its entire mechanical identity. Meanwhile its entire theme is also shared with warlock. Its subclasses all have identical themes.
Hi so bit of a weird time to ask this, but better late then never and all that, my question should be pretty clear with the title and such.
So yeah, feel free to reply with your opinion on certain options and what they would like within 5e, or to just call me a dumbass if that's what you feel like doing today.
Problem: all currently existing sorcerer subclasses have to continue to work with the sorcerer base class in whatever they do in 2024. The Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul, from Tasha's Cauldron, grant an Expanded Spell List feature that requires the sorcerer to be a full-progression spellcaster.
Sorcerers cannot be anything but full-progression casters, which means that with the sole, single exception of the Aberrant Mind, they will always be worse wizards. Which is awful because I quite enjoy sorcerers from a thematic standpoint, but they offer essentially nothing a wizard cannot do while having five times the spell list.
Please do not contact or message me.
Right forgot about the backwards compatibility, shit.
Well out of curiosity what would you actually like to see, rather then what we will see.
Multiple people have suggested adding expanded spell lists to existing subclasses. If you search the Sorcerer thread, you'll find a few ideas.
Oh I've fully thought out subclass spells, though no DM I play with does much or any homebrew.
Besides in my opinion the issue with sorcerer isn't power it's identity.
Buff metamagic? Although I personally never like metamagic being somehow the sorcerer's domain, metamagic to me always seemed something that could be unlocked through the academic interrogation of magic, so would land with something Wizards would have access to.
I like the idea of Wizards being able to tap into magic through intensive intellectual inquiry and study ... and Sorcerers having a much more raw or intimate relationship with the weave. The execution of a Wizard who basically has almost "all the magic", and the Sorcerer being basically a reduced spell list CHR Wizard is disappointing, but I don't see this being "fixed" in Projekt D&D 2024 Red other than spreading the expanded spell list to the pre-Tasha's subclasses, which isn't a big fix and more a "gimme".
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Keep them full casters but lean in on their unique features. Their metamagic. Give them spells known lists and add some more sorcery points early, or a way to recover them. And make more interesting metamagics.
hell I am not against giving them some real powerful metamagics for very high costs. 5 sorc points to max a damage roll. Have an option that gives attack roll spells an aoe that turn. there are so many things that could be fun ways to twist spells. And that’s what they are supposed to do. Bend the laws of magic. So let them do it in fun ways.
Not sure how this would affect backwards compatibility but keep them similar to how they are but make them CON casters (it’s literally in their blood) and add core class features based off of that. I can’t remember if it was city of villains or city of heroes MMO where there was a “class” that did more damage the lower their health got. Not saying they should do this but just an idea of what could be done. Like if they take damage equal to <insert formula here> they recover or gain a temporary sorcery point that lasts until the end of their next turn so they can use it or lose it. Something like that
Edit: and add sorcerer specific spells to their list.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
To keep it very simple, WotC could double their sorcery points and give them twice as many metamagics (or even all of them, and right away, for that matter).
Tie wizardly metamagic to spell slot level and sorcerly metamagic to sorcery points, and give wizards fewer of them, possibly from a restricted list.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I don't think it's true that 5e subclasses must work with whatever they come up with for classes in 5.5. When they say 5.5 will be backward-compatible, they mean you'll be able to play your 5e character in 5.5 content. They can't possibly mean 5 and 5.5 will mesh seamlessly. There would be no point to a new edition in that case.
Your 5e Battle Master will be playable in 5.5, but it might no longer be a legal build. It'll probably be under/overtuned for 5.5, but it'll work.
Do you mean viable or balanced? By definition, if 5.5e is backwards compatible, a legal 5e build has to be legal in 5.5e too.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I mean viable as in it will function, but not necessarily balanced. "Backward compatible" can mean different things. 3e is not backward-compatible with 2e, because the fundamental mechanics behind the game are so different that you can't just run your 3e PC in 2e. You need to rebuild the PC using 2e rules, and get as close as you can.
Meanwhile, 3.5e is backward-compatible with 3e. You can run a RAW 3e PC in a 3.5e game, because the fundamental rules are the same. The 3e PC might violate some 3.5e rules, but that doesn't mean it won't work. It'll just be unbalanced.
They could easily make the 5.5 sorcerer a half-caster. It wouldn't prevent you from running the full-caster 5e sorcerer in a 5.5e game, but it wouldn't be "legal" (I mean like from an AL perspective). There would no longer be a full-caster sorcerer option in official D&D, but you can still use your old 5e sorc and the game will play fine. It might not be balanced, but it's compatible.
It's not true that compatibility == legality.
5.5 wouldn't be a new edition, it'd be an updated fifth edition. And it's still rather unclear what the actual plans are.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Of course, but that doesn't change the point. The whatever-it-is-update-edition-thing can certainly give us a new version of a class that is unlike the existing 5e version, and still claim to be backward-compatible, so long as the previous version of the class can function within the mechanics.
If I make a homebrew subclass here on DnDBeyond, it's (likely) compatible with RAW 5e without being legal.
What the whatever-it-is-update-edition-thing can't do is claim to be an update-edition-thing without making some changes. If it makes any change to a class, it means the RAW 5e version of that class is no longer the official version of the class. It might still work within the new update-edition-thing ruleset (since as I understand it that stuff isn't changing at a fundamental level), but WotC will (likely) no longer claim that RAW 5e version is balanced with regard to the new update-edition-thing's mindset. It'll effectively become homebrew.
I am a fan of giving sorcerers all the metamagics right away and then giving them real class features at the level they currently get new metamagics.
You are still very hard limited by sorcery points, but this way you might get to see more than just Quickened, Twinned, and Heightened in a game.
I also like the idea of introducing the capstone ability much earlier but in a weaker form and letting it build as you level.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I don't see the class as needing a huge amount of fixing, myself. My biggest gripe about the class is the very few spells known and the limitation on changing them. For a fun twist, to address this directly:
Spells known. Once every few days, (6 days -Proficiency Bonus) you can change a number of spells, equal to your Proficiency Bonus out for a different spell on the Sorcerer list. It would mean that at lower levels, you could swap spells every 4 days or so and change 2 at that time. As you leveled, you could change spells more often and more spells, scaling it, so it remained relevant. It addresses the short list of known spells at any given time, allowing the Sorcerer to remain useful, as your situations, encounters and group needs shift.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I'm in the camp that retroactively applying expanded spell lists to the pre-Tasha's subclasses would go a long way towards updating the sorcerer.
I also think more metamagic options available, more metamagic options in general, and more access to sorcery points would help too. Sorcerers' whole deal is flexibility, leveraging their natural abilities to do more with less, and I think the way to do that is either to make more metamagic options available earlier (all? Maybe! As stated before, you're still constrained by the amount of sorcery points available), or release new metamagic options and make lower level characters able to access 4-5 metamagics rather than a measly two. Honestly it would be really cool to have metamagics like "Change Shape" that alters the shape of an AOE spell allowing you to, say, shoot Web in a line instead of a circle. Essentially more ways to mess around with the building blocks of spells for more versatility despite a short spell list.
Speaking of things giving sorcerers greater versatility, I think it would be cool if sorcerers had the option of choosing between CHA, CON, or WIS for their casting stat, since I've never been satisfied with the "raw, natural ability=CHA" equation, and feel like the fiction people are often going for with sorcerers could fall under either of those stats equally. Not only that, but it would give you greater variation from one sorc to the next, which yes no other class really gets this, but I'd say that's the point. It would also turn the sorcerer into a multiclassing BEAST, but it kind of already is so might as well lean into the niche. I'd be willing to ax WIS sorcerers if people thought it'd be too OP, but it's not like there's only one WIS caster anyways. But I could be fine with just letting people choose between CHA and CON. Gives people a little more to do with CON anyways.
Another thing, and this is way more nit-picky, maybe instead of only getting 1 sorcery point per level, maybe you get something akin to a monk's unarmed defense, where your sorcery point pool equals your Proficiency bonus + CHA mod+ WIS mod, or maybe sorcery points equal your (Spell Save DC + your WIS/CON mod) ÷2 or something. Something that'll bump up the sorcery points without overdoing it.
Those are my thoughts.
*edit* one thing I'll mention from a game I'm running right now, is that in the past I've given the sorcerer in my party a bonus 2 sorcery points and allowed him to choose two new metamagics as a quest reward instead of treasure. Now he's able to use metamagic more often and has a lot more fun with it, and I haven't noticed it having an adverse effect on game balance.
My current Aberrant Mind sorcerer has the origin spells, the metamagic adept feat, a blood well vial and the DM lets me change one spell of the same level every long rest. None of those things have made my sorcerer overpowered (we are level 9). It has made it more fun and less work to play. It also helps define my character as a sorcerer, someone who can bend the laws of magic without having studied it like a wizard.
I would love to see any or all of those things become standard features, i.e. origin spells to give more flavor to your subclass, four metamagics to start with plus 2 more maybe when you hit level 8 instead of 10, an expanded spell list, a few extra sorcery points, some points can be gotten back after a short rest, and a limited ability to change out spells. so far none of these things have stepped on the wizard's toes.
This is pretty much what I'd like to see. Having 8 different options is all well and good until you realize you have 3-10 sorcery points without blowing spell slots to create more(since most campaigns don't go past level 10).
Either that or give unique metamagic options as subclass features while in addition giving expanded spell lists to all current subclassses as well as new ones.
I can't see them changing the sorcerer that much in 5.5, as ultimately it has to be compatible with 5e still. Sure I'd have loved the playtest sorcerer over what we got, but it's too late now.
Also still extremely bitter how the sorcerer was meant to be the arcane half caster paladin/ranger equivalent, and when it got reverted to its current state that gap never got filled. Leaving this edition missing that niche.
I honestly don't know what sorcerer is meant to be anymore. I preferred metamagic as a feat which is its entire mechanical identity. Meanwhile its entire theme is also shared with warlock. Its subclasses all have identical themes.