Yes, when spells can duplicate or surpass the hard won skills then spells will always trump skills - until the spells run out. Because of the way we typically play spells never run out in 5e so skills take a distant second place. The sorceror was never intended to be a skill monkey but, to my mind, it’s never really been clear what the sorceror’s intended role was and is. In order to fix the sorceror I suspect this first issue of what it’s official role is has to be decided and made clear. Any discussion of the bard probably should be moved to the bard forum, I brought up the psion only because, to my mind, they had the role of points based known “spell” caster first and therefore it’s successes and failures might help the discussion
But also a simple second level spell will make you invisible, or give you advantage on a bunch of skills (and I think advantage math's out to like a + 3).
I'd actually argue that sorcerer has a better claim on martial capabilities, it's only identity currently is "Innate Combat Mage", at least in my experience.
The sorceror was never intended to be a skill monkey but, to my mind, it’s never really been clear what the sorceror’s intended role was and is. In order to fix the sorceror I suspect this first issue of what it’s official role is has to be decided and made clear. Any discussion of the bard probably should be moved to the bard forum, I brought up the psion only because, to my mind, they had the role of points based known “spell” caster first and therefore it’s successes and failures might help the discussion
Quite right. I've always heard that the Sorcerer is the blaster, but I don't know about all that. They barely get any features to suggest such a role. They're like slightly tougher Wizards, but not tough enough to really be tough.
I'd actually argue that sorcerer has a better claim on martial capabilities, it's only identity currently is "Innate Combat Mage", at least in my experience.
Yeah, I’ve heard that along with the bit about being the blaster but it’s not really any better in combat than the Wizard. Yes the sorceror has metamagic to do things like twin spells or enlarge them etc but given it’s limited spell selection that doesn’t make it better just not quite evens it out.
The sorceror was never intended to be a skill monkey but, to my mind, it’s never really been clear what the sorceror’s intended role was and is. In order to fix the sorceror I suspect this first issue of what it’s official role is has to be decided and made clear. Any discussion of the bard probably should be moved to the bard forum, I brought up the psion only because, to my mind, they had the role of points based known “spell” caster first and therefore it’s successes and failures might help the discussion
Quite right. I've always heard that the Sorcerer is the blaster, but I don't know about all that. They barely get any features to suggest such a role. They're like slightly tougher Wizards, but not tough enough to really be tough.
My point is that a simple second level spell can cancel invisibility, but not stealth.
The sorceror was never intended to be a skill monkey but, to my mind, it’s never really been clear what the sorceror’s intended role was and is. In order to fix the sorceror I suspect this first issue of what it’s official role is has to be decided and made clear. Any discussion of the bard probably should be moved to the bard forum, I brought up the psion only because, to my mind, they had the role of points based known “spell” caster first and therefore it’s successes and failures might help the discussion
Quite right. I've always heard that the Sorcerer is the blaster, but I don't know about all that. They barely get any features to suggest such a role. They're like slightly tougher Wizards, but not tough enough to really be tough.
My point is that a simple second level spell can cancel invisibility, but not stealth.
Oh! I see.
But Pass Without Trace will basically make you a professional sneak with no skill investment. So if, as was the case in 3.5, your class's whole gimmick was "I can max out, like, 12 skills," you have to question why you'd max out Stealth (which was two skills back then). And the same could be said for every skill, basically. Why max out Perception when you can just summon beasties with special senses and huge bonuses? I mean, I'm not gonna list every single skill here, there were a million. But they eventually introduced Skill Tricks to try to provide any incentive for someone to play a skill monkey, because it just wasn't worth giving up good martial or spell progression normally.
All of which is to say: in the sort of binary "weapons or spells" framework we have, it can be shown that a third option -- "weapons or spells or skills" -- isn't worthwhile. If we're looking for a niche for the Sorcerer, then, we can assume that "skill monkey" isn't good, but I don't think anyone wanted that for Sorcerer anyway.
I think this talk of finding a niche for the Sorcerer is quite literally a solution in search of a problem. We don't need it. There's no reason to turn our house upside-down looking for things we can duct tape just because we have this shiny red duct tape that we inherited from the house's previous owner. Just put the duct tape away. The house is fine.
The sorceror was never intended to be a skill monkey but, to my mind, it’s never really been clear what the sorceror’s intended role was and is. In order to fix the sorceror I suspect this first issue of what it’s official role is has to be decided and made clear. Any discussion of the bard probably should be moved to the bard forum, I brought up the psion only because, to my mind, they had the role of points based known “spell” caster first and therefore it’s successes and failures might help the discussion
Quite right. I've always heard that the Sorcerer is the blaster, but I don't know about all that. They barely get any features to suggest such a role. They're like slightly tougher Wizards, but not tough enough to really be tough.
My point is that a simple second level spell can cancel invisibility, but not stealth.
I mean if someone just uses invisibility without trying to be stealthy you still know where they are. You just get disadvantage on attacking them and can't do stuff that requires you to see them like opportunity attacks and a bunch of spells.
On the other hand you can't stealth where people can see you no matter how high you roll. No spell required to cancel that, just open your eyes.
It's not an "or" question. You gotta use both in combination to get the full effect. Stealth benefits greatly from invisibility and invisibility does a lot more if you actually try to be stealthy with it.
That being said, as the user above mentioned the spell Pass Without a Trace exists which is basically super stealth for your whole party. Also Silence can be pretty useful if you try to be stealthy in some circumstances.
All of which is to say: in the sort of binary "weapons or spells" framework we have, it can be shown that a third option -- "weapons or spells or skills" -- isn't worthwhile. If we're looking for a niche for the Sorcerer, then, we can assume that "skill monkey" isn't good, but I don't think anyone wanted that for Sorcerer anyway.
I think this talk of finding a niche for the Sorcerer is quite literally a solution in search of a problem. We don't need it. There's no reason to turn our house upside-down looking for things we can duct tape just because we have this shiny red duct tape that we inherited from the house's previous owner. Just put the duct tape away. The house is fine.
I completely agree with this I think. We don't need to find a niche for the Sorcerer, we just need improve what's there. If the Wizard gets to have all the spells and ritual casting and whatnot, then let the Sorcerer be the one who casts the spells better (aka a major buff to metamagic) and really leans into a specific kind of spells. Be it blaster, ghish (kinda big fan of the Pathfinder Magus tbh), buffer (something we actually need more of tbh) or social spells like charms and whatnot. The Wizards can be the swiss army knife with spells that seem to break every encounter but the Sorcerer can be the one who takes the more simple spells and does things with it the Wizard can only dream of.
For that to work though we'd need a bit of a revised spell list though. It would need to be created with the above idea in mind instead of just a seemingly random collection of spells that may or may not fit someone who didn't spend years studying arcane theory. Spells that actually work well with all the metamagic options we have.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Let me ask this of everyone- What do you see the sorceror’s role being and why?
for me he is the multiclass specialist. He doesn’t have the spell selection to match well with the bard or Wizard, he doesn’t have the combat abilities/proficiencies to match well against the martial bards, warlocks or bladesinger, but he makes a great addition to any class that wants/needs to boost limited spellcasting abilities and most of those multiclasses drastically improve their combat abilities/survivability. If matched to a half caster it effectively makes them a much stronger spellcaster as well (example: a S6/R14 has spells that max at L3/4L but slots that max at L7 and knowing a total of 5 cantrips and 13 spells between the 2 classes allowing for a lot of upcasting and improved spell use/selection).
Let me ask this of everyone- What do you see the sorceror’s role being and why?
for me he is the multiclass specialist. He doesn’t have the spell selection to match well with the bard or Wizard, he doesn’t have the combat abilities/proficiencies to match well against the martial bards, warlocks or bladesinger, but he makes a great addition to any class that wants/needs to boost limited spellcasting abilities and most of those multiclasses drastically improve their combat abilities/survivability. If matched to a half caster it effectively makes them a much stronger spellcaster as well (example: a S6/R14 has spells that max at L3/4L but slots that max at L7 and knowing a total of 5 cantrips and 13 spells between the 2 classes allowing for a lot of upcasting and improved spell use/selection).
There's no such thing as a multiclass specialist as "role" in my opinion. A class being good for multiclassing is merely a side effect of the system. Being a good addon would be a terrible role since its usefulness only exists on paper and isn't something you "do" as actual Sorcerer. I'd also say that Fighter beats Sorcerer there but that's beside the point.
Wizards and Sorcerers are both casters with nothing else going on than their spell casting. All they do revolves around it unlike with Druids, Clerics and Bards who have other nice core mechanics to play around with. That's a fact. Their actual role in a party however highly depends on the spells you select. You can be a blaster if you want to build a blaster but you can also be a social caster thanks to subtle, twinned, heightened etc. if you want to. Their role is not something decided by the class you pick. It's what you make it by selecting the right spells. Some subclasses support a specific kind of role more than others but that's that. The only thing that's decided by the class is what you won't be and that's being a frontliner due to not having proper AC and hit dice.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Let me ask this of everyone- What do you see the sorceror’s role being and why?
The Sorcerer is the Charisma based full caster. Wizard is Intelligence, Cleric is Wisdom. They each get to be good at a few skills associated with their ability score. Since religion and nature feel different enough we also get Druid.
But wait! Bard is the Charisma caster now. And it feels better because it actually gets features and lore relating to being charismatic. Warlock gets most of the scary side of that and Bard gets the friendly side. Warlock also gets the magical body mod stuff.
There is no niche for Sorcerers. They exist to fill out a spreadsheet, and the spreadsheet is already full.
I feel they fill a great role as support, especially Divine. Metamagic to twin Haste, Shield of Faith or perhaps Fairy Fire, maybe? Distant spell a Cure Wounds or Spare the Dying? Extend your Polymorph on the bad guy, so he stays a turtle while you flee for not one hour, but 2. hey get very few spells, but the metamagic options lets them do the work of 2 many times with Twinned spells and such, making them able to get the most out of the few spells they get.
My only wish for change with the class falls under getting more spells ready somehow. Otherwise, the mechanics, to anyone who is able to think creatively, are not so bad. I see a lot of hate towards the class and I will say, I think a lot of it is unwarranted.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I honestly don't see them having a valid role anymore. Their role was spontaneous caster, but that's all casters in 5e. Metamagic should have stayed a feat like it always has been.
Thematically they could easily be merged with warlock. The subclass themes are identical, and both function as 'magic blasters'. Draconic sorcerers can already be made via pacts which is the definition of a warlock. Simply switch the lore to 'your powers were gained through a pact or bloodline'.
There are definitely other classes which deserve a spot far more than the sorcerer, like warlord or swordmage.
Sorcerers need a tight concept. They are like magical mutants. So, we’re talking about Ice Man, the Human Torch, Nightcrawler, etc. The class earns a spot in core only when this tight concept is maintained. However, rather than select spells around a tight concept, most players choose spells to optmize. I’m not sure how rules can be rewritten to change that.
Yes, when spells can duplicate or surpass the hard won skills then spells will always trump skills - until the spells run out. Because of the way we typically play spells never run out in 5e so skills take a distant second place. The sorceror was never intended to be a skill monkey but, to my mind, it’s never really been clear what the sorceror’s intended role was and is. In order to fix the sorceror I suspect this first issue of what it’s official role is has to be decided and made clear.
Any discussion of the bard probably should be moved to the bard forum, I brought up the psion only because, to my mind, they had the role of points based known “spell” caster first and therefore it’s successes and failures might help the discussion
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
There are a few edge cases where skills are superior to spells. A simple second level spell will see invisibility.
But also a simple second level spell will make you invisible, or give you advantage on a bunch of skills (and I think advantage math's out to like a + 3).
I'd actually argue that sorcerer has a better claim on martial capabilities, it's only identity currently is "Innate Combat Mage", at least in my experience.
I don't understand your point here. No skill lets you see invisible things.
Quite right. I've always heard that the Sorcerer is the blaster, but I don't know about all that. They barely get any features to suggest such a role. They're like slightly tougher Wizards, but not tough enough to really be tough.
The Rogue 14th level feature comes pretty close.
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But it isn’t really a skill per se even if the blind sense ability functions more like a skill than a spell.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yeah, I’ve heard that along with the bit about being the blaster but it’s not really any better in combat than the Wizard. Yes the sorceror has metamagic to do things like twin spells or enlarge them etc but given it’s limited spell selection that doesn’t make it better just not quite evens it out.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
A sorcerer is resigned to be the blaster, mainly because they can't even think of approaching the other caters in terms of utility.
My point is that a simple second level spell can cancel invisibility, but not stealth.
Oh! I see.
But Pass Without Trace will basically make you a professional sneak with no skill investment. So if, as was the case in 3.5, your class's whole gimmick was "I can max out, like, 12 skills," you have to question why you'd max out Stealth (which was two skills back then). And the same could be said for every skill, basically. Why max out Perception when you can just summon beasties with special senses and huge bonuses? I mean, I'm not gonna list every single skill here, there were a million. But they eventually introduced Skill Tricks to try to provide any incentive for someone to play a skill monkey, because it just wasn't worth giving up good martial or spell progression normally.
All of which is to say: in the sort of binary "weapons or spells" framework we have, it can be shown that a third option -- "weapons or spells or skills" -- isn't worthwhile. If we're looking for a niche for the Sorcerer, then, we can assume that "skill monkey" isn't good, but I don't think anyone wanted that for Sorcerer anyway.
I think this talk of finding a niche for the Sorcerer is quite literally a solution in search of a problem. We don't need it. There's no reason to turn our house upside-down looking for things we can duct tape just because we have this shiny red duct tape that we inherited from the house's previous owner. Just put the duct tape away. The house is fine.
I mean if someone just uses invisibility without trying to be stealthy you still know where they are. You just get disadvantage on attacking them and can't do stuff that requires you to see them like opportunity attacks and a bunch of spells.
On the other hand you can't stealth where people can see you no matter how high you roll. No spell required to cancel that, just open your eyes.
It's not an "or" question. You gotta use both in combination to get the full effect. Stealth benefits greatly from invisibility and invisibility does a lot more if you actually try to be stealthy with it.
That being said, as the user above mentioned the spell Pass Without a Trace exists which is basically super stealth for your whole party. Also Silence can be pretty useful if you try to be stealthy in some circumstances.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
I completely agree with this I think. We don't need to find a niche for the Sorcerer, we just need improve what's there. If the Wizard gets to have all the spells and ritual casting and whatnot, then let the Sorcerer be the one who casts the spells better (aka a major buff to metamagic) and really leans into a specific kind of spells. Be it blaster, ghish (kinda big fan of the Pathfinder Magus tbh), buffer (something we actually need more of tbh) or social spells like charms and whatnot. The Wizards can be the swiss army knife with spells that seem to break every encounter but the Sorcerer can be the one who takes the more simple spells and does things with it the Wizard can only dream of.
For that to work though we'd need a bit of a revised spell list though. It would need to be created with the above idea in mind instead of just a seemingly random collection of spells that may or may not fit someone who didn't spend years studying arcane theory. Spells that actually work well with all the metamagic options we have.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Let me ask this of everyone- What do you see the sorceror’s role being and why?
for me he is the multiclass specialist. He doesn’t have the spell selection to match well with the bard or Wizard, he doesn’t have the combat abilities/proficiencies to match well against the martial bards, warlocks or bladesinger, but he makes a great addition to any class that wants/needs to boost limited spellcasting abilities and most of those multiclasses drastically improve their combat abilities/survivability. If matched to a half caster it effectively makes them a much stronger spellcaster as well (example: a S6/R14 has spells that max at L3/4L but slots that max at L7 and knowing a total of 5 cantrips and 13 spells between the 2 classes allowing for a lot of upcasting and improved spell use/selection).
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
There's no such thing as a multiclass specialist as "role" in my opinion. A class being good for multiclassing is merely a side effect of the system. Being a good addon would be a terrible role since its usefulness only exists on paper and isn't something you "do" as actual Sorcerer. I'd also say that Fighter beats Sorcerer there but that's beside the point.
Wizards and Sorcerers are both casters with nothing else going on than their spell casting. All they do revolves around it unlike with Druids, Clerics and Bards who have other nice core mechanics to play around with. That's a fact. Their actual role in a party however highly depends on the spells you select. You can be a blaster if you want to build a blaster but you can also be a social caster thanks to subtle, twinned, heightened etc. if you want to. Their role is not something decided by the class you pick. It's what you make it by selecting the right spells. Some subclasses support a specific kind of role more than others but that's that. The only thing that's decided by the class is what you won't be and that's being a frontliner due to not having proper AC and hit dice.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
The Sorcerer is the Charisma based full caster. Wizard is Intelligence, Cleric is Wisdom. They each get to be good at a few skills associated with their ability score. Since religion and nature feel different enough we also get Druid.
But wait! Bard is the Charisma caster now. And it feels better because it actually gets features and lore relating to being charismatic. Warlock gets most of the scary side of that and Bard gets the friendly side. Warlock also gets the magical body mod stuff.
There is no niche for Sorcerers. They exist to fill out a spreadsheet, and the spreadsheet is already full.
I feel they fill a great role as support, especially Divine. Metamagic to twin Haste, Shield of Faith or perhaps Fairy Fire, maybe? Distant spell a Cure Wounds or Spare the Dying? Extend your Polymorph on the bad guy, so he stays a turtle while you flee for not one hour, but 2. hey get very few spells, but the metamagic options lets them do the work of 2 many times with Twinned spells and such, making them able to get the most out of the few spells they get.
My only wish for change with the class falls under getting more spells ready somehow. Otherwise, the mechanics, to anyone who is able to think creatively, are not so bad. I see a lot of hate towards the class and I will say, I think a lot of it is unwarranted.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I honestly don't see them having a valid role anymore. Their role was spontaneous caster, but that's all casters in 5e. Metamagic should have stayed a feat like it always has been.
Thematically they could easily be merged with warlock. The subclass themes are identical, and both function as 'magic blasters'. Draconic sorcerers can already be made via pacts which is the definition of a warlock. Simply switch the lore to 'your powers were gained through a pact or bloodline'.
There are definitely other classes which deserve a spot far more than the sorcerer, like warlord or swordmage.
Sorcerers need a tight concept. They are like magical mutants. So, we’re talking about Ice Man, the Human Torch, Nightcrawler, etc. The class earns a spot in core only when this tight concept is maintained.
However, rather than select spells around a tight concept, most players choose spells to optmize. I’m not sure how rules can be rewritten to change that.
Making them less spell centric.