I’m with Harvikk - yes sorcerors need an update but it comes down to 3 easy things they need: 1) more and faster access to metamagic. (2 at L3 + 1/3 levels after that, for a total of 8 at L20?) 2) more sorcery points or a way to restore a decent number on a short rest ( maybe recharge PB points on a short rest?) 3) revamped and updated spell lists - especially for the earlier subclasses. My personal feeling is that they could use about 5 more spells known including some subclass specific spells.
Another revamp they need to do is looking at the spells that wizards have but not sorcerers and giving them some of them. To many spells have been kept away from sorcerers not because of balance but because in the developer's eyes they didnt 'feel' like sorcerer spells, for instance summoning magic
They need to take a hard look at how their decisions affect the classes and the game and dial the restrictions back
Another revamp they need to do is looking at the spells that wizards have but not sorcerers and giving them some of them. To many spells have been kept away from sorcerers not because of balance but because in the developer's eyes they didnt 'feel' like sorcerer spells, for instance summoning magic
They need to take a hard look at how their decisions affect the classes and the game and dial the restrictions back
Agreed and this is far from the only area where they do it, the restrictions on sneak attacks like not being able to use unarmed strikes for example. Let the players dial in the flavor.
More spells known - yes for sure. I like what they did with abberant mind and clockwork soul. Extra spells known and then being able to swap out those spells with others is a great fix. Every sorcerer subclass should have that.
More sorcerer specific spells - sure, but you can always homebrew. But i do see your point. Druids get conjure animals. Wizards get fireball. Warlocks eldritch blast. Clerics get spirit guardians yet sorcerers do not have that one great spell that helps to define the class. What that would be, i have no idea.
More sorcerer points - yes, but not too much more. Maybe as part of font of magic you can also regain sorcery points equal to your charisma modifier once per long rest. I think that should be enough. This would help low level play be a bit less of a struggle.
Greater access to metamagic options - currently starting with two metamagic options and having a max of four (without metamagic adept feat) is too little. Start with two but get another one at 5th, 9th, 13th and 17th level. This would give you a total of 6. Its not a huge increase but the amount of situational versatility this can add i think is very helpful and makes you feel less like a one trick pony. Whats wrong with greater versatility? That's not OP in any way. A player should not have to waste an ASI on the metamagic adept feat to make up for this short coming in the class design.
There are definately spells that should be on the sorcerer list that are not but i think those can be added with dm approval.
Also, i would love to see a sorcery subclass based on summoning demons and an elementalist sublcass. One subclass for each of earth, air, fire and water.
I would love to see a metamagic option called "enlarge/reduce spell" that lets you increase or decrease the area of effect of a spell up to 10 feet by spending 1 sorcery point.
There should probably be some sort of improvement on metamagic at the high levels of sorcerer (somewhat as an answer to the wizard's signature spell and spell mastery features) Maybe a reduction of the sorcerer points on one metamagic known and maybe remove the restrictions on stacking multiple meta magics.
That might be a bit too far in the opposite direction. As fun as being able to twin-cast Firebolt then quicken-twincast a second firebolt would be, I kinda get the feeling that might be a biiiiiit too far. But it seems the thread is largely in agreement that the class needs more meta-magic quicker.
That might be a bit too far in the opposite direction. As fun as being able to twin-cast Firebolt then quicken-twincast a second firebolt would be, I kinda get the feeling that might be a biiiiiit too far. But it seems the thread is largely in agreement that the class needs more meta-magic quicker.
I think a bit too far is what capstones are in theory about (unless you are a sorcerer, ranger, monk, or bard, though there are probably some more I missed). But if those two are an issue then maybe make those two not allowed together, but that would allow a subtle heightened mind sliver followed by a quickened heightened save spell
Eh. You know some people aren't going to see it that way. Admittedly I didn't think it through cause 4 sorc points is just far more valuable barring some very specific situations (and you could just fireball it for AoE), but I'm just imagining someone doing that, then another player at their table getting outraged because 'you just cast 4 cantrips in 1 turn! That's against the rules!'.
I'd like to see the eldritch blast invocations opened up to work on more cantrips, and for maybe a few more "multi-shot" cantrips to be added that would scale the same with Agonizing Blast
That would be very interesting.
The issue with Sorcerers is the same with Monks. The one resource (Sorcerery points and Ki, respectively) which makes them powerful and different from other similar classes is in short supply. Adding to that resource would be great, but if it's inflated then the class is overpowered and the other classes have to use power creep to keep up.
That being said, I think that for those two classes, the resource IS low for both, so it should be increased. By how much, honestly, I'm not sure.
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I’m with Harvikk - yes sorcerors need an update but it comes down to 3 easy things they need:
1) more and faster access to metamagic. (2 at L3 + 1/3 levels after that, for a total of 8 at L20?)
2) more sorcery points or a way to restore a decent number on a short rest ( maybe recharge PB points on a short rest?)
3) revamped and updated spell lists - especially for the earlier subclasses. My personal feeling is that they could use about 5 more spells known including some subclass specific spells.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Another revamp they need to do is looking at the spells that wizards have but not sorcerers and giving them some of them. To many spells have been kept away from sorcerers not because of balance but because in the developer's eyes they didnt 'feel' like sorcerer spells, for instance summoning magic
They need to take a hard look at how their decisions affect the classes and the game and dial the restrictions back
I think that ( summoning) might be better handled with a summoning subclass.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Agreed and this is far from the only area where they do it, the restrictions on sneak attacks like not being able to use unarmed strikes for example. Let the players dial in the flavor.
More spells known - yes for sure. I like what they did with abberant mind and clockwork soul. Extra spells known and then being able to swap out those spells with others is a great fix. Every sorcerer subclass should have that.
More sorcerer specific spells - sure, but you can always homebrew. But i do see your point. Druids get conjure animals. Wizards get fireball. Warlocks eldritch blast. Clerics get spirit guardians yet sorcerers do not have that one great spell that helps to define the class. What that would be, i have no idea.
More sorcerer points - yes, but not too much more. Maybe as part of font of magic you can also regain sorcery points equal to your charisma modifier once per long rest. I think that should be enough. This would help low level play be a bit less of a struggle.
Greater access to metamagic options - currently starting with two metamagic options and having a max of four (without metamagic adept feat) is too little. Start with two but get another one at 5th, 9th, 13th and 17th level. This would give you a total of 6. Its not a huge increase but the amount of situational versatility this can add i think is very helpful and makes you feel less like a one trick pony. Whats wrong with greater versatility? That's not OP in any way. A player should not have to waste an ASI on the metamagic adept feat to make up for this short coming in the class design.
There are definately spells that should be on the sorcerer list that are not but i think those can be added with dm approval.
Also, i would love to see a sorcery subclass based on summoning demons and an elementalist sublcass. One subclass for each of earth, air, fire and water.
I would love to see a metamagic option called "enlarge/reduce spell" that lets you increase or decrease the area of effect of a spell up to 10 feet by spending 1 sorcery point.
Designers are you reading this? 😀
I vote for radical change of the highest order, bring back dndnext playtest sorcerer it was so much cooler.
Edit: this thread was ended a lot longer then I thought.
There should probably be some sort of improvement on metamagic at the high levels of sorcerer (somewhat as an answer to the wizard's signature spell and spell mastery features) Maybe a reduction of the sorcerer points on one metamagic known and maybe remove the restrictions on stacking multiple meta magics.
That might be a bit too far in the opposite direction. As fun as being able to twin-cast Firebolt then quicken-twincast a second firebolt would be, I kinda get the feeling that might be a biiiiiit too far. But it seems the thread is largely in agreement that the class needs more meta-magic quicker.
I think a bit too far is what capstones are in theory about (unless you are a sorcerer, ranger, monk, or bard, though there are probably some more I missed). But if those two are an issue then maybe make those two not allowed together, but that would allow a subtle heightened mind sliver followed by a quickened heightened save spell
Four firebolts at the cost of 4 sorcery points, at 20th level? I don't think it's that broken.
On the whole though I think I'd rather see stronger subclass capstones for sorcerer than a big buff to the class capstone.
Eh. You know some people aren't going to see it that way. Admittedly I didn't think it through cause 4 sorc points is just far more valuable barring some very specific situations (and you could just fireball it for AoE), but I'm just imagining someone doing that, then another player at their table getting outraged because 'you just cast 4 cantrips in 1 turn! That's against the rules!'.
That would be very interesting.
The issue with Sorcerers is the same with Monks. The one resource (Sorcerery points and Ki, respectively) which makes them powerful and different from other similar classes is in short supply. Adding to that resource would be great, but if it's inflated then the class is overpowered and the other classes have to use power creep to keep up.
That being said, I think that for those two classes, the resource IS low for both, so it should be increased. By how much, honestly, I'm not sure.