I'm a fan of the metamagics, but I've recently encountered some questions that I as a new DM do not know how to respond to.
Questions like "can you cast a spell while quickening another?" I looked up the ruling online and it was basically that you can quicken a spell and cast it as a bonus action, but then only cast a cantrip. Or, for example, if you quickened Haste on yourself, does that mean you can only cast a cantrip even if you now have not one but two actions yet to use? I know Haste specifies that the additional action is a weapon attack/dash/hide/disengage, but that still leaves a whole action after that. I guess what I'm having trouble justifying in my mind is what's the difference between a cantrip being cast as an action, and a first level spell being cast as an action if their casting time is only one action?
Also, if you cast a level 3 spell with a casting time of one action, I can't find anything that specifies that the Quickened Spell then cannot be used after that to cast another spell as a bonus action. For example, casting back-to-back Magic Missiles?
I get that the spellcasting rules are there so things don't break, and mechanically I fully understand that a mage wouldn't really have time to get the S/V components ready 2x in 6 seconds, but like some of the other threads have covered Sorcerers are kind of there to break (small) things about magic with Metamagic. I think one person called it a "small boon" for sorcerers getting no love from extra archtype spells and limited known spells.
What do you guys think? Have you had to make a ruling on something like this in the past? Would allowing this interpretation break things too much?
Quickening a spell allows us mighty sorcerer to cast two cantrips in one turn or a "real" spell and a cantrip. Two firebolts with 2d10 can be quite nice.
For sorcerer its "only" possible to get one spell and a cantrip out per turn even when you are hasted. After playing and Dm-ing "Hoard of the Dragon-Queen", i must say two fireballs in one turn would have been absolutly ridicules. The "one spell per turn mechanic" shouldnt be broken.
And since there are other "metamagics" too, you can increase the output in other ways. A twinned firebolt and another quickend one can do good damage for one turn. For me, quickening feels just like squeezing that little bit extra in.
By the rules, you handle "haste" and casting right.
If you use quicken spell, then you can cast only a cantrip with your action. If you are hasten, then the additional action ,as the spell says, is only for Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object.
If you cast a normal spell first with your action, then you cannot quicken another spell unless it is a cantrip. goes against the rule of bonus action spell.
But for fun though, let me put the incident into context and let me know what you think of the ruling that was made at the table.
The sorcerer in question was facing off against one of the leaders of a group responsible for basically destroying his life and everyone in it. He's a draconic (fire) bloodline and so he kinda went berserk and went toe to toe with the guy who was not a mage, but more of an Edlritch Knight-type. The sorcerer wanted to quicken True Strike, then cast Chromatic Orb at 3rd level. Now that brings in the whole "true strike only grants advantage to the next TURN's action", on top of my original question about the quicken sell + level spell.
In the end because this sorcerer was just overwhelmed with rage, and the player RP'd really well into that roll, it was ruled at the table that it would be allowed this once. Anyway it ended up not mattering because both dice rolled high enough to hit, so if anything the sorcerer wasted a quicken spell. Also, as of the end of the session, the sorcerer was unconscious and the much tankier enemy was fighting the other group members ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So in the context of the situation, is it alright to allow PC's certain one-time exceptions to abilities (not just metamagic) if the DM feels like the situation & how they are role-playing warrants it? I see it as a possible alternative to inspiration dice, but I want to know what you more experienced DMs think.
The sorcerer wanted to quicken True Strike, then cast Chromatic Orb at 3rd level. Now that brings in the whole "true strike only grants advantage to the next TURN's action", on top of my original question about the quicken sell + level spell.
I get the impression you're unaware that True Strike is actually cantrip - it was fine to use it then quicken a normal spell. You are correct however in saying that True Strike should only work on your next turn.
Quickened Spell works whatever the spell's level might be, but you are always restricted to the limit of one spell per round.
So in the context of the situation, is it alright to allow PC's certain one-time exceptions to abilities (not just metamagic) if the DM feels like the situation & how they are role-playing warrants it? I see it as a possible alternative to inspiration dice, but I want to know what you more experienced DMs think.
Whilst I can be a stickler for the rules, people generally play D&D to have fun. If you think it makes sense, if you think they've earned it, go for it. Just do it sparingly, and make sure people are aware that they're not going to be regular occurrences (or else there's a chance they'll all be wanting an exception made for them - then arguing for it, slowing down the game, etc.)
A lot of the well known DMs make allowances, or homebrew their own rules in entirely. If everyone's enjoying it, if it's still a challenge, then why not? Mercer and Perkins are two of the most well known and they're no strangers to doing it.
I have had similar issues with metamagic, one problem that really stands out in my memory is how to deal with Twinspelling Magic Missile as with a 5th level spell slot, the average of which is roughly 50 force damage. Seeing as how the Sorcerer gives up metamagic points and a 5th level spell slot to do this it seemed balanced, but we, as a group, were not sure if he could only Twinspell the original 3 missiles. I do not remember the exact argument, but there were other problems with the attack as well, this however was the main problem I remember.
Any thoughts?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind. -H. P. Lovecraft
I have had similar issues with metamagic, one problem that really stands out in my memory is how to deal with Twinspelling Magic Missile as with a 5th level spell slot, the average of which is roughly 50 force damage. Seeing as how the Sorcerer gives up metamagic points and a 5th level spell slot to do this it seemed balanced, but we, as a group, were not sure if he could only Twinspell the original 3 missiles. I do not remember the exact argument, but there were other problems with the attack as well, this however was the main problem I remember.
Any thoughts?
Magic Missile can't be twined as it can target more than one target.
The most common abuse for Quickened Spell is to double up on actions for upper-level spells that let you use your Action on each turn for something. Telekinesis, Sunbeam, the Investiture spells, and Eyebite can all be Quickened to cast with Bonus Action and then use your Action to re-activate the spell on the same turn. This doesn't count as casting two spells, so it's legit. Unfortunately these don't really inhabit the lower spell levels that most players spend their time at.
Generally, Quicken and Twinned Spell let you subvert the game's action economy, which is an pretty uncommon ability in this edition. Twinned Spell in particular lets you concentrate on two copies of the same spell at the same time - e.g., Enhance Ability, Haste, Greater Invisibility.
It is unfortunate that the Sorcerer is so limited in both metamagic and spell selection because you can really paint yourself into a corner trying to balance game-useful spells with spells that utilize your metamagic well.
More experienced hands have weighed in, but for what it's worth I like to think of D&D as a story enabled by rules. I think you probably made the right call in that situation.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm a fan of the metamagics, but I've recently encountered some questions that I as a new DM do not know how to respond to.
Questions like "can you cast a spell while quickening another?" I looked up the ruling online and it was basically that you can quicken a spell and cast it as a bonus action, but then only cast a cantrip. Or, for example, if you quickened Haste on yourself, does that mean you can only cast a cantrip even if you now have not one but two actions yet to use? I know Haste specifies that the additional action is a weapon attack/dash/hide/disengage, but that still leaves a whole action after that. I guess what I'm having trouble justifying in my mind is what's the difference between a cantrip being cast as an action, and a first level spell being cast as an action if their casting time is only one action?
Also, if you cast a level 3 spell with a casting time of one action, I can't find anything that specifies that the Quickened Spell then cannot be used after that to cast another spell as a bonus action. For example, casting back-to-back Magic Missiles?
I get that the spellcasting rules are there so things don't break, and mechanically I fully understand that a mage wouldn't really have time to get the S/V components ready 2x in 6 seconds, but like some of the other threads have covered Sorcerers are kind of there to break (small) things about magic with Metamagic. I think one person called it a "small boon" for sorcerers getting no love from extra archtype spells and limited known spells.
What do you guys think? Have you had to make a ruling on something like this in the past? Would allowing this interpretation break things too much?
Quickening a spell allows us mighty sorcerer to cast two cantrips in one turn or a "real" spell and a cantrip. Two firebolts with 2d10 can be quite nice.
For sorcerer its "only" possible to get one spell and a cantrip out per turn even when you are hasted. After playing and Dm-ing "Hoard of the Dragon-Queen", i must say two fireballs in one turn would have been absolutly ridicules. The "one spell per turn mechanic" shouldnt be broken.
And since there are other "metamagics" too, you can increase the output in other ways. A twinned firebolt and another quickend one can do good damage for one turn. For me, quickening feels just like squeezing that little bit extra in.
By the rules, you handle "haste" and casting right.
here the sage advice:
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/11/16/quickened-spell/
If you use quicken spell, then you can cast only a cantrip with your action. If you are hasten, then the additional action ,as the spell says, is only for Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object.
If you cast a normal spell first with your action, then you cannot quicken another spell unless it is a cantrip. goes against the rule of bonus action spell.
Makes sense, I'll pass the ruling along.
But for fun though, let me put the incident into context and let me know what you think of the ruling that was made at the table.
The sorcerer in question was facing off against one of the leaders of a group responsible for basically destroying his life and everyone in it. He's a draconic (fire) bloodline and so he kinda went berserk and went toe to toe with the guy who was not a mage, but more of an Edlritch Knight-type. The sorcerer wanted to quicken True Strike, then cast Chromatic Orb at 3rd level. Now that brings in the whole "true strike only grants advantage to the next TURN's action", on top of my original question about the quicken sell + level spell.
In the end because this sorcerer was just overwhelmed with rage, and the player RP'd really well into that roll, it was ruled at the table that it would be allowed this once. Anyway it ended up not mattering because both dice rolled high enough to hit, so if anything the sorcerer wasted a quicken spell. Also, as of the end of the session, the sorcerer was unconscious and the much tankier enemy was fighting the other group members ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So in the context of the situation, is it alright to allow PC's certain one-time exceptions to abilities (not just metamagic) if the DM feels like the situation & how they are role-playing warrants it? I see it as a possible alternative to inspiration dice, but I want to know what you more experienced DMs think.
Let's say that as DM I would allow to spend the character's inspiration to break that rule.
I get the impression you're unaware that True Strike is actually cantrip - it was fine to use it then quicken a normal spell. You are correct however in saying that True Strike should only work on your next turn.
Quickened Spell works whatever the spell's level might be, but you are always restricted to the limit of one spell per round.
The combinations are:
Cantrip - Quickened Cantrip
Cantrip - Quickened Spell
Attack/Dodge/Disengage* - Quickened Spell
*Anything that is an regular action but not a form of spellcasting
A lot of the well known DMs make allowances, or homebrew their own rules in entirely. If everyone's enjoying it, if it's still a challenge, then why not? Mercer and Perkins are two of the most well known and they're no strangers to doing it.
Hope this helps!
Site Rules & Guidelines - Please feel free to message a moderator if you have any concerns.
My homebrew: [Subclasses] [Races] [Feats] [Discussion Thread]
I have had similar issues with metamagic, one problem that really stands out in my memory is how to deal with Twinspelling Magic Missile as with a 5th level spell slot, the average of which is roughly 50 force damage. Seeing as how the Sorcerer gives up metamagic points and a 5th level spell slot to do this it seemed balanced, but we, as a group, were not sure if he could only Twinspell the original 3 missiles. I do not remember the exact argument, but there were other problems with the attack as well, this however was the main problem I remember.
Any thoughts?
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind. -H. P. Lovecraft
Site Rules & Guidelines || How to Tooltip || Contact Support || Changelog || Pricing FAQ || Homebrew FAQ
If you have questions/concerns, please Private Message me or another moderator.
Wary the wizard who focuses on homebrew, for he can create nightmares that you wouldn't even dream of
The most common abuse for Quickened Spell is to double up on actions for upper-level spells that let you use your Action on each turn for something. Telekinesis, Sunbeam, the Investiture spells, and Eyebite can all be Quickened to cast with Bonus Action and then use your Action to re-activate the spell on the same turn. This doesn't count as casting two spells, so it's legit. Unfortunately these don't really inhabit the lower spell levels that most players spend their time at.
Generally, Quicken and Twinned Spell let you subvert the game's action economy, which is an pretty uncommon ability in this edition. Twinned Spell in particular lets you concentrate on two copies of the same spell at the same time - e.g., Enhance Ability, Haste, Greater Invisibility.
It is unfortunate that the Sorcerer is so limited in both metamagic and spell selection because you can really paint yourself into a corner trying to balance game-useful spells with spells that utilize your metamagic well.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
What if you cast it to only target one creature? I realize my mistake; disregard this reply.
The world is indeed comic, but the joke is on mankind. -H. P. Lovecraft
More experienced hands have weighed in, but for what it's worth I like to think of D&D as a story enabled by rules. I think you probably made the right call in that situation.