….why is it's primary Ability score Charisma and not Intelligence?
We have two other casters (Sorcerer and Bard) that are based on Charisma already, with better rationales for why they would be, yet only Wizards as an Intelligence specialising Class. There is a lack of distinct, Intelligence-based characters in D&D, but an overflow of Charisma-based characters.
Warlocks main theme is how they would make pacts, often secretly, with otherworldly patreons. While this could be seen as something that could be achieved with Charisma, the concept of pouring through secret rituals on documents and devising a contract that works in your favour against the patreon is much more to do with Intelligence. You could argue that having a magical pact gives the character an arcane aura of sorts, which would be a signifier of Charisma, but you could argue the same sort of thing with Wizards if that was the case. Charisma could be a factor in characters that are essentially charlatans, but does every Warlock need to be this? Moreover, having sneaky, ammoral and unlikable characters - with a low Charisma - is still a worthy Warlock concept in my view. Why can't we play intelligent occultist characters, like Faust or Elric, as part of this Class? Why can't you play something like an ugly witch?
Well the good news is... You can. Work with your DM and roll with it, the sky is the limit to how you play your own game. Obviously not useful if you play adventure league or something similar to that but for the average group it shouldn't be too hard to convince a DM to allow something simple like that.
I personally always imagined the charisma for warlocks being them conjuring a connection with their patron through sheer force of will. Almost 'convincing' the magic to do as they will it to.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
But Charisma is about force of personality. Not necessarily likeable. Not necessarily attractive. Not necessarily an extrovert. So you can play a hag, a person who gets thing done at any cost and sells the necessity, or the very reluctant quiet one in the back who when they speak, people listen.
But an intellectual deal maker i get. You could certain do it and home rule a swap at character generation. It wouldnt break the game.
Intelligence makes sense too, but I've always thought of charisma and warlocks being the strength of will not to be overrun by, or simply acting as a puppet of, your patron. Actually, it seems to me like its exactly the same as a sorcerer, the power of will to control the magic.
Yeah I mean there is nothing that says the patron even has knowledge of their warlock, Great Old Ones being a good example. So the idead of using their force of personality to shape magic from a conduit with their patron makes a lot of sense.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Charisma may be force of personality, but it also influences all the Charisma-based skills which are all social in use - like persuasion or performance.
I don't see the Warlock as an inherently social class, while I do see them having an aptitide for investigation, arcana and history and so on.
A great thing with DDB is that if you copy a Warlock subclass you own from purchased content (or from the SRD) you can change the casting ability to Intelligence! So if your DM approves of this change, you can definitely do it. I personally allow in my games for Warlocks to choose to either gain access to ancient secrets from their patron (INT caster) or create an unbreakable bond with their patron for power (CHA caster).
A great thing with DDB is that if you copy a Warlock subclass you own from purchased content (or from the SRD) you can change the casting ability to Intelligence! So if your DM approves of this change, you can definitely do it. I personally allow in my games for Warlocks to choose to either gain access to ancient secrets from their patron (INT caster) or create an unbreakable bond with their patron for power (CHA caster).
If a Warlock was able to obtain power through study or other means, I doubt they would have made a deal with another entity that may have been rather costly. What is given could be taken away if the patron is displeased, assuming they notice. Wizards are untimely skilled individuals who are able to use their mind and own abilities to shape the world around them in ways they choose. Sorcerers are typically by birth or by accident, able to do the same, but it may not always make sense under the rules of magic physics to wizards. Warlocks having neither of these options opt for a different approach.
Who is to say that once a Warlock makes a pact deal with the entity in question, the entity does not make a few adjustments to allow better channeling of their power into the material plane? Think of a warlock pact as a shortcut, more power now for less work or talent, that comes with a price. If the Warlock lacked a fundamental sense of self and strong will she/he may end up becoming nothing more than an extension of their patron, possibly even a meat puppet. You don't have to be smart or wise to make a deal, just arrogant enough to think it is work it.
One thing I appreciated in 4e was that Warlocks could be either Constitution or Charisma based - I like the idea of Constitution being like, you're drawing on your own lifeforce as your casting ability. It'd work well as a concept for things like the Fiend pact, the Great Old One pact, etc.
If a Warlock was able to obtain power through study or other means, I doubt they would have made a deal with another entity that may have been rather costly. What is given could be taken away if the patron is displeased, assuming they notice. Wizards are untimely skilled individuals who are able to use their mind and own abilities to shape the world around them in ways they choose. Sorcerers are typically by birth or by accident, able to do the same, but it may not always make sense under the rules of magic physics to wizards. Warlocks having neither of these options opt for a different approach.
Who is to say that once a Warlock makes a pact deal with the entity in question, the entity does not make a few adjustments to allow better channeling of their power into the material plane? Think of a warlock pact as a shortcut, more power now for less work or talent, that comes with a price. If the Warlock lacked a fundamental sense of self and strong will she/he may end up becoming nothing more than an extension of their patron, possibly even a meat puppet. You don't have to be smart or wise to make a deal, just arrogant enough to think it is work it.
This. While Faust is a great example of a warlock and he was clearly intelligent, he also required an almost unshakable sense of conviction to believe that he could outsmart the devil in a deal. Yes, Charisma effects every social skill, but if you take a moment to reflect you might agree that a sales-person that speaks with conviction is more likely to make the sale. Its not about sweet talking, or good looks. Its about knowing what to say at the right time, and with the correct tone, in order to get what you want.
Going back to Faust being used as an example, I would actually argue that he would be a multi-classed Wizard/Warlock.
As for Intelligence replacing Charisma as the primary attribute, I would counter argue that a high intelligent character is likely to be more cautious and thus less likely to make a pact. After all, the Devil always has a loophole that places any pact in his favor.
If a Warlock was able to obtain power through study or other means, I doubt they would have made a deal with another entity that may have been rather costly. What is given could be taken away if the patron is displeased, assuming they notice. Wizards are untimely skilled individuals who are able to use their mind and own abilities to shape the world around them in ways they choose. Sorcerers are typically by birth or by accident, able to do the same, but it may not always make sense under the rules of magic physics to wizards. Warlocks having neither of these options opt for a different approach.
Who is to say that once a Warlock makes a pact deal with the entity in question, the entity does not make a few adjustments to allow better channeling of their power into the material plane? Think of a warlock pact as a shortcut, more power now for less work or talent, that comes with a price. If the Warlock lacked a fundamental sense of self and strong will she/he may end up becoming nothing more than an extension of their patron, possibly even a meat puppet. You don't have to be smart or wise to make a deal, just arrogant enough to think it is work it.
This. While Faust is a great example of a warlock and he was clearly intelligent, he also required an almost unshakable sense of conviction to believe that he could outsmart the devil in a deal. Yes, Charisma effects every social skill, but if you take a moment to reflect you might agree that a sales-person that speaks with conviction is more likely to make the sale. Its not about sweet talking, or good looks. Its about knowing what to say at the right time, and with the correct tone, in order to get what you want.
Going back to Faust being used as an example, I would actually argue that he would be a multi-classed Wizard/Warlock.
As for Intelligence replacing Charisma as the primary attribute, I would counter argue that a high intelligent character is likely to be more cautious and thus less likely to make a pact. After all, the Devil always has a loophole that places any pact in his favor.
I don't really agree with that analysis at all, to be honest. Charisma is not just a measure of conviction, it's a social stat, and Intelligence does not denote a lack of arrogance either. If you want to play an alienated, anti-social occultist character, studying otherworldly forces in order to make a pact for the purposes of advancing personal power and fortune…...then unfortunately that character isn't really catered for by a Charisma-based Warlock.
Trippy. I would suggest that a deeply dangerous vicious murderous criminal can also be charismatic with a personality that draws you in despite knowing you shouldnt fall for it. For safety lets take Hannibal Lector /manhunter-red dragon- silence of the lambs, for an example. A person who is antisocial, holds themselves aloof and above 'mere mortals' yet when they talk? you find yourself listening. That can easily be a transplanted to a warlock. And those who would make pacts with them - after all most of these 'things' are.... antisocial, alienated, alien and alienating. It aptly describes the patrons of pacts as well as their possible servants.
Charisma is about personality - without your own sense of self you could be consumed by your patron, hollowed out into a vessel blindly moving to the puppet masters whims. If you cant hold onto that self image - even in the face of sanity and logic such as 'your a murder, a demonologist damned to the pit' you wouldnt be a warlock - also high wisdom or intelligence could be a disadvantage - the tortured soul isnt tortured by decisions if they arent clever enough to see what they have done to themselves clearly.. or at all. Ignorance is bliss, or at least allows you to commit what others would consider atrocities and sleep at night sure in your own 'right' to do so.
Charisma as the primary stat makes sense to me, in part because the other two options make less sense.
A high Intelligence character would be well-read or knowledgeable about what happens to those who rely on boons from dark forces instead of truly mastering the arcane arts, which they would be capable of doing (like a wizard). A high Wisdom character would realize that a pact is not freely given and the cost could be higher than it seems at first, and would be better rewarded by turning to paths which strengthen a faithful spirit (like a druid or cleric). A high Charisma character would be able to convince a powerful outsider to share their power with a lowly mortal, and could even make demands which sound reasonable to the patron but will ultimately benefit the warlock the most (like all of the warlock features do).
High Charisma Warlocks make no sense when what you are wanting to play is a character who are based on investigation and knowledge, rather than their charm and performance skills. For me, making pacts with patreons isn't actually about convincing them they should back you - that is more in the remit of Paladins or even Clerics. Patreons make pacts with mortals because they want to exploit them, or they are being exploited by the mortals. Knowing the 'rules of engagement' is how an Intelligent Warlock makes their pact, and this would come from intense research.
And no, I don't want to play a charming psychopath either. I want to play an ordinary joe, who may be bored or depressed with his ordinary life, who heavily studies up on occult lore and makes a pact with a devil. Not Hannibal Lector, but Faust. A charismatic, successful character wouldn't feel compelled to make a pact in the first place - they make the deal because of their lack of Charisma.
As I said, you are free to disagree all you like (although these arguments are getting repetitive now). However, the Charisma-Based Warlock doesn't really allow me to play the type of character I want from it, and that is a shame.
Sorry Trippy, I laid out how charisma warlocks made sense earlier and how a high charisma character could operate. The arc trickster was because you seemed to want to play an int caster and it fit your investigative comments. You seem to hate that idea, so if your Dm is fine with you using INT thats good but that is a stop gap because then your playing a character you will be prevented from playing with others later. You made this post to address a personal bug with why warlocks were cha based characters, the reasons they are has been addressed. Alternative game 'legal' solutions have been offered and none seem to tickle your pickle. You appear to be stuck, but I hope you can enjoy the character and all those you play.
Yeah I mean there is nothing that says the patron even has knowledge of their warlock, Great Old Ones being a good example. So the idead of using their force of personality to shape magic from a conduit with their patron makes a lot of sense.
I actually like them as Wisdom based for this reason. That magic is not a matter of finessing power that you are given with charisma but of will, using wisdom as the mental resistance state to force power from your patron to act on your behalf. But I get it most people like the deceptive warlock so Charisma is well liked as opposed to the "studied witch" unlocking hided secrets and contacting dark powers, or the warlock who syphons power of a being and forces it to serve them in an act of pure willpower.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Charisma isnt just deception though. A reality tv star may have massive amounts of 'charisma' and be just smart enough to consider making a pact with a patron. In exchange for that pact they have the power to boost the number of their twitter followers. Self importance and self image surviving in the face of logic, reality and common sense allow them to continue functioning in some way rather than becoming a puppet of their master, sure they can make stupid choices but they never forget who they are because who they are is everything to them, self deception maybe but the rest is all about charm, the non magical kind.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
….why is it's primary Ability score Charisma and not Intelligence?
We have two other casters (Sorcerer and Bard) that are based on Charisma already, with better rationales for why they would be, yet only Wizards as an Intelligence specialising Class. There is a lack of distinct, Intelligence-based characters in D&D, but an overflow of Charisma-based characters.
Warlocks main theme is how they would make pacts, often secretly, with otherworldly patreons. While this could be seen as something that could be achieved with Charisma, the concept of pouring through secret rituals on documents and devising a contract that works in your favour against the patreon is much more to do with Intelligence. You could argue that having a magical pact gives the character an arcane aura of sorts, which would be a signifier of Charisma, but you could argue the same sort of thing with Wizards if that was the case. Charisma could be a factor in characters that are essentially charlatans, but does every Warlock need to be this? Moreover, having sneaky, ammoral and unlikable characters - with a low Charisma - is still a worthy Warlock concept in my view. Why can't we play intelligent occultist characters, like Faust or Elric, as part of this Class? Why can't you play something like an ugly witch?
Well the good news is... You can. Work with your DM and roll with it, the sky is the limit to how you play your own game. Obviously not useful if you play adventure league or something similar to that but for the average group it shouldn't be too hard to convince a DM to allow something simple like that.
I personally always imagined the charisma for warlocks being them conjuring a connection with their patron through sheer force of will. Almost 'convincing' the magic to do as they will it to.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
This came up in a different topic. It appears that it WAS going be int based. So, click below
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/warlock/23721-why-do-people-still-think-that-your-patron-is-the?comment=18
But Charisma is about force of personality. Not necessarily likeable. Not necessarily attractive. Not necessarily an extrovert. So you can play a hag, a person who gets thing done at any cost and sells the necessity, or the very reluctant quiet one in the back who when they speak, people listen.
But an intellectual deal maker i get. You could certain do it and home rule a swap at character generation. It wouldnt break the game.
Intelligence makes sense too, but I've always thought of charisma and warlocks being the strength of will not to be overrun by, or simply acting as a puppet of, your patron. Actually, it seems to me like its exactly the same as a sorcerer, the power of will to control the magic.
Yeah I mean there is nothing that says the patron even has knowledge of their warlock, Great Old Ones being a good example. So the idead of using their force of personality to shape magic from a conduit with their patron makes a lot of sense.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Charisma may be force of personality, but it also influences all the Charisma-based skills which are all social in use - like persuasion or performance.
I don't see the Warlock as an inherently social class, while I do see them having an aptitide for investigation, arcana and history and so on.
A great thing with DDB is that if you copy a Warlock subclass you own from purchased content (or from the SRD) you can change the casting ability to Intelligence! So if your DM approves of this change, you can definitely do it. I personally allow in my games for Warlocks to choose to either gain access to ancient secrets from their patron (INT caster) or create an unbreakable bond with their patron for power (CHA caster).
Good advice, thank you!
How do you do that exactly?
If a Warlock was able to obtain power through study or other means, I doubt they would have made a deal with another entity that may have been rather costly. What is given could be taken away if the patron is displeased, assuming they notice. Wizards are untimely skilled individuals who are able to use their mind and own abilities to shape the world around them in ways they choose. Sorcerers are typically by birth or by accident, able to do the same, but it may not always make sense under the rules of magic physics to wizards. Warlocks having neither of these options opt for a different approach.
Who is to say that once a Warlock makes a pact deal with the entity in question, the entity does not make a few adjustments to allow better channeling of their power into the material plane? Think of a warlock pact as a shortcut, more power now for less work or talent, that comes with a price. If the Warlock lacked a fundamental sense of self and strong will she/he may end up becoming nothing more than an extension of their patron, possibly even a meat puppet. You don't have to be smart or wise to make a deal, just arrogant enough to think it is work it.
One thing I appreciated in 4e was that Warlocks could be either Constitution or Charisma based - I like the idea of Constitution being like, you're drawing on your own lifeforce as your casting ability. It'd work well as a concept for things like the Fiend pact, the Great Old One pact, etc.
This. While Faust is a great example of a warlock and he was clearly intelligent, he also required an almost unshakable sense of conviction to believe that he could outsmart the devil in a deal. Yes, Charisma effects every social skill, but if you take a moment to reflect you might agree that a sales-person that speaks with conviction is more likely to make the sale. Its not about sweet talking, or good looks. Its about knowing what to say at the right time, and with the correct tone, in order to get what you want.
Going back to Faust being used as an example, I would actually argue that he would be a multi-classed Wizard/Warlock.
As for Intelligence replacing Charisma as the primary attribute, I would counter argue that a high intelligent character is likely to be more cautious and thus less likely to make a pact. After all, the Devil always has a loophole that places any pact in his favor.
Fierna is the best Duchess of Hell
I don't really agree with that analysis at all, to be honest. Charisma is not just a measure of conviction, it's a social stat, and Intelligence does not denote a lack of arrogance either. If you want to play an alienated, anti-social occultist character, studying otherworldly forces in order to make a pact for the purposes of advancing personal power and fortune…...then unfortunately that character isn't really catered for by a Charisma-based Warlock.
You can agree to disagree if you like.
Trippy. I would suggest that a deeply dangerous vicious murderous criminal can also be charismatic with a personality that draws you in despite knowing you shouldnt fall for it. For safety lets take Hannibal Lector /manhunter-red dragon- silence of the lambs, for an example. A person who is antisocial, holds themselves aloof and above 'mere mortals' yet when they talk? you find yourself listening. That can easily be a transplanted to a warlock. And those who would make pacts with them - after all most of these 'things' are.... antisocial, alienated, alien and alienating. It aptly describes the patrons of pacts as well as their possible servants.
Charisma is about personality - without your own sense of self you could be consumed by your patron, hollowed out into a vessel blindly moving to the puppet masters whims. If you cant hold onto that self image - even in the face of sanity and logic such as 'your a murder, a demonologist damned to the pit' you wouldnt be a warlock - also high wisdom or intelligence could be a disadvantage - the tortured soul isnt tortured by decisions if they arent clever enough to see what they have done to themselves clearly.. or at all. Ignorance is bliss, or at least allows you to commit what others would consider atrocities and sleep at night sure in your own 'right' to do so.
Charisma as the primary stat makes sense to me, in part because the other two options make less sense.
A high Intelligence character would be well-read or knowledgeable about what happens to those who rely on boons from dark forces instead of truly mastering the arcane arts, which they would be capable of doing (like a wizard).
A high Wisdom character would realize that a pact is not freely given and the cost could be higher than it seems at first, and would be better rewarded by turning to paths which strengthen a faithful spirit (like a druid or cleric).
A high Charisma character would be able to convince a powerful outsider to share their power with a lowly mortal, and could even make demands which sound reasonable to the patron but will ultimately benefit the warlock the most (like all of the warlock features do).
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
High Charisma Warlocks make no sense when what you are wanting to play is a character who are based on investigation and knowledge, rather than their charm and performance skills. For me, making pacts with patreons isn't actually about convincing them they should back you - that is more in the remit of Paladins or even Clerics. Patreons make pacts with mortals because they want to exploit them, or they are being exploited by the mortals. Knowing the 'rules of engagement' is how an Intelligent Warlock makes their pact, and this would come from intense research.
And no, I don't want to play a charming psychopath either. I want to play an ordinary joe, who may be bored or depressed with his ordinary life, who heavily studies up on occult lore and makes a pact with a devil. Not Hannibal Lector, but Faust. A charismatic, successful character wouldn't feel compelled to make a pact in the first place - they make the deal because of their lack of Charisma.
As I said, you are free to disagree all you like (although these arguments are getting repetitive now). However, the Charisma-Based Warlock doesn't really allow me to play the type of character I want from it, and that is a shame.
Perhaps a rogue with ritual caster or magic initiate or both might suit you then? Go arcane trickster and you have your ideal type there.
Or perhaps just convert Warlock to being Int based rather than Cha based? Playing an arcane trickster is nothing like what I was suggesting at all.
I'm over this.
Sorry Trippy, I laid out how charisma warlocks made sense earlier and how a high charisma character could operate. The arc trickster was because you seemed to want to play an int caster and it fit your investigative comments. You seem to hate that idea, so if your Dm is fine with you using INT thats good but that is a stop gap because then your playing a character you will be prevented from playing with others later. You made this post to address a personal bug with why warlocks were cha based characters, the reasons they are has been addressed. Alternative game 'legal' solutions have been offered and none seem to tickle your pickle. You appear to be stuck, but I hope you can enjoy the character and all those you play.
I actually like them as Wisdom based for this reason. That magic is not a matter of finessing power that you are given with charisma but of will, using wisdom as the mental resistance state to force power from your patron to act on your behalf. But I get it most people like the deceptive warlock so Charisma is well liked as opposed to the "studied witch" unlocking hided secrets and contacting dark powers, or the warlock who syphons power of a being and forces it to serve them in an act of pure willpower.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Charisma isnt just deception though. A reality tv star may have massive amounts of 'charisma' and be just smart enough to consider making a pact with a patron. In exchange for that pact they have the power to boost the number of their twitter followers. Self importance and self image surviving in the face of logic, reality and common sense allow them to continue functioning in some way rather than becoming a puppet of their master, sure they can make stupid choices but they never forget who they are because who they are is everything to them, self deception maybe but the rest is all about charm, the non magical kind.