Personally it makes more sense to me that Warlocks who make deals with other worldly beings, use charisma. I think Sorcerers probably should be intelligence based as even latent blood born magic surely needs a keen mind to not destroy yourself with. In general I get the frustration that you are sort of locked into certain stats with whatever class you play unless you are willing to be hobbled throughout the game and Intelligence seems severely underused in 5e.
As I said, you are free to disagree all you like (although these arguments are getting repetitive now). However, the Charisma-Based Warlock doesn't really allow me to play the type of character I want from it, and that is a shame.
First off, if you know what type of character you want to play then spend the time to figure out how to make that work. I'd recommend investing at least as much time as you've spent trying to convince everyone that your idea of a Warlock is better than the idea the creators of the game went with. The same creaters who, oddly enough, encourage players to play the game in whatever way is fun for their table and homebrew away.
Secondly, you are just wrong. Any idiot (read low Int) with enough cahones (read high Cha) can make a deal with the devil. However, not just any scholar can learn to wield the elements and bend reality.
The pact a Warlock makes is just that, a trade of whatever the powerful entity is willing to accept in return for power the Warlock is unable gather through their own means, which is why they are willing to make a deal to begin with. An average Joe as you mention is not a trial lawyer, definitely not one smart enough to out bargain the devil. I have to argue that it is just more plausible to to say that someone with the intellect to be that good of a lawyer and a lust for arcane power would hit the books and just learn magic the Wizardly way. They would likely be smart enough to deduce that they are capable on their own and as such there is nothing the devil can offer in trade they cannot get for themselves without having to accept the steep terms such a gift would demand in return.
The average Joe with less than a grand in his bank account may well sell his soul for a million bucks, but how many millionaires are going to make that deal?
Also, there is no tricking the patron, you accept their terms and take the deal they offer or you don't get the power. They dont have to do business with you, you arent the only person desperate enough to head to the crossroads at midnight. Moreover, it just doesn't make sense that a level 1 character is skillful enough AT ANYTHING to stand a chance of getting one over on a being of such unimaginable power that it is able to bargain away enough of it's power that it amounts to a potentially level 20 force to reckoned with while and being willing to do so because in reality it is giving away only a fraction of it's own power to accomplish that.
Unless, of course, the type of character you want to play is just all kinds of OP and has his own Wizard level arcane ability with a pact for more magic above and beyond that while also being Sherlock Holmes. If that's the case and your DM is a glutton for punishment, then yeah, an Intlock seems legit.
I just figured that those that had enough personal willpower survived to make to lvl1. The poor souls that where very nearly warlocks either died mysteriously or where locked up by a church or by some other institution
Secondly, you are just wrong. Any idiot (read low Int) with enough cahones (read high Cha) can make a deal with the devil. However, not just any scholar can learn to wield the elements and bend reality.
Respectfully disagree. This is a common mistake I am seeing with Warlock RP that people make and the OP is correct to a degree that Intelligence likely makes more sense for Warlock or at least deserves to be an official alternate spellcasting stat for Warlock. With the exception of the level 20 ability where the Patron is directly recharging your magical reserves, Patron's do not provide Warlocks their power. They TEACH Warlocks arcane secrets but the power is the Warlock's alone and once that Eldritch Secret is shared, it cannot be taken back. This is not a Cleric/Deity relationship where the Warlock must continually stay in the good graces of their patron or all of a sudden loose all of their powers. This is a common mistake but a mistake nonetheless. From the opening descriptions of the Warlock class with emphasis added:
"Warlocks are seekers of the knowledge that lies hidden in the fabric of the multiverse"
"Drawing on the ancient knowledge of beings"
"warlocks piece together arcane secrets to bolster their own power"
Seeking knowledge, drawing on ancient knowledge and piecing together arcane secrets like a puzzle doesn't exactly strike me as the behavior of an idiot with cahones who convinced a powerful being to grant them magic pew pew powers. This is not unlike the difference between someone who learns a trade strictly in a classroom (Wizard) vs someone who learns by being more of an apprentice (Warlock). The Warlock is still going to spend time studying books but they learn best through observation of an expert rather than simply reading theory like a Wizard. Again the character description reinforces this:
"the arrangement is similar to that between a master and an apprentice"
Just my 2 cents. Long story short. Patrons do not gift warlocks their powers. They teach them arcane secrets which the warlock can then use at their whim. Based on this, an intelligence based Warlock would be entirely rational.
Arguments both ways, and apparently this was play-tested during D&D Next. I humbly suggest that there are many benefits to playing a high intelligence warlock, as the class stands. Charisma powers your offensive magic, yes, but the case to optimize for Cha (or any class' primary ability score) is often overstated.
Outside of combat, high Int helps if you take any of the five class skills that are intelligence-based. It can open up the Ritual Caster and other interesting feats, assist general intelligence checks, and support character concept (best of all, right?). Any character that emphasizes a secondary ability score will be a much more well-rounded and flexible character. Warlocks especially should welcome this, since the class encourages a diverse role in adventuring.
What if when you chose pact of the tome, you could choose to switch your spellcasting ability to intelligence instead of charisma? You wouldn't be forced to, but just as a choice. It would give that 'seeker of knowledge' type warlock feel, and make more sense for the ritual casting invocation.
Hosted a battle between the Cult of Sedge and the Forum Countershere(Done now). I_Love_Tarrasques has won the fight, scoring a victory for the fiendish Moderators.
What if when you chose pact of the tome, you could choose to switch your spellcasting ability to intelligence instead of charisma? You wouldn't be forced to, but just as a choice. It would give that 'seeker of knowledge' type warlock feel, and make more sense for the ritual casting invocation.
Actually, that's a really good solution right there.
It would make sense wouldn't it? Although, there would be a mild issue with having to wait a level till you could make Intelligence your primary score.
But then, what would the problem be with having decent Charisma as well as Intelligence? If you have a good score in both, then you will be just as good for the first two levels as for the third and up.
Hosted a battle between the Cult of Sedge and the Forum Countershere(Done now). I_Love_Tarrasques has won the fight, scoring a victory for the fiendish Moderators.
But then, what would the problem be with having decent Charisma as well as Intelligence? If you have a good score in both, then you will be just as good for the first two levels as for the third and up.
Because I don't want to have to prioritise a characteristic that is not an essential part of that character. If I want to play a Warlock who is driven by Intelligence, to decipher old tomes and learn ancient rituals and the like, that character won't necessarily be Charismatic at all.
But then, what would the problem be with having decent Charisma as well as Intelligence? If you have a good score in both, then you will be just as good for the first two levels as for the third and up.
Because I don't want to have to prioritise a characteristic that is not an essential part of that character. If I want to play a Warlock who is driven by Intelligence, to decipher old tomes and learn ancient rituals and the like, that character won't necessarily be Charismatic at all.
So there is nothing wrong with having INT close to or equal to CHA in a character. The Mechanics don't make it essential only in respect to spell casting, and nothing else (for attack bonuses and Save DCs). A "regular" Warlock who wanted to have a Sage background, and be good in History, Arcana, etc would still need INT. So by that definition of character design it is essential, and achievable.
I get your idea of an INT based warlock mechanically. But I am curious, If you are trying to min max your character in a way so that INT is the only stat you care about; what would be your other stats be? What's competing for keeping two stats (CHA & INT) high?
Because it is only your spellcasting ability, not an ability for any invocations that state "Your Charisma modifier". Also, Charisma is a plenty good stat even if it's not your spell stat, so it would still make sense for you to keep your Charisma at least decent if you chose to make your spellcasting ability Intelligence. Honestly having Intelligence or Charisma as Warlock for the spellcasting ability would make sense, in my opinion. I usually keep both high even though Intelligence, mechanically, is not as useful.
Hosted a battle between the Cult of Sedge and the Forum Countershere(Done now). I_Love_Tarrasques has won the fight, scoring a victory for the fiendish Moderators.
Also just as a general homerule for everyone here, since it's unearthed arcana, consider allowing Seeker Warlocks to use Intelligence for spellcasting if they so wish.
Hosted a battle between the Cult of Sedge and the Forum Countershere(Done now). I_Love_Tarrasques has won the fight, scoring a victory for the fiendish Moderators.
My thought is that if you were an INT-based Warlock, and wanted to use that for spellcasting, as well as (maybe) crafting some Invocations to be more INT based, instead of CHA, that maybe you'd want to have your DEX fairly high for decent AC, and CON also for Concentration spells, and having an OK HP. You'd be more of a true caster, and less focused on running in with a sword.
If you've got high INT / DEX / CON, then you'd want to "dump" CHA, STR & WIS. Getting awful close to a Wizard, but, with distinctively different flavor. Maybe you'd have to suffer for a couple of levels, with your higher INT, until the Invocations and your Pact kick in, and then you'd really be able to go with the flow.
I get your idea of an INT based warlock mechanically. But I am curious, If you are trying to min max your character in a way so that INT is the only stat you care about; what would be your other stats be? What's competing for keeping two stats (CHA & INT) high?
Because for the character I have in mind, he DOESN'T have a good Charisma. He's weak socially, and in terms of interpersonal confidence. He strikes a deal with a devil to overcome this. He is smart (INT) and sneaky (DEX).
I get your idea of an INT based warlock mechanically. But I am curious, If you are trying to min max your character in a way so that INT is the only stat you care about; what would be your other stats be? What's competing for keeping two stats (CHA & INT) high?
Because for the character I have in mind, he DOESN'T have a good Charisma. He's weak socially, and in terms of interpersonal confidence. He strikes a deal with a devil to overcome this. He is smart (INT) and sneaky (DEX).
I see what you are going for. Although you say "Strikes a deal with a devil to overcome this" I take you don't mean as a side effect of the pact, you now have charisma as part of the bargain. Because that is totally playable, but I get it if you aren't going for it.
I personally don't see a Warlock as an int driven class, but that doesn't matter here. I am a big fan of trying to tell the story you want, but this one is hitting the mechanic wall hard. :(
I just figured that it was because fey and Fiend monsters base their Spellcasting on charisma. They don’t study magic so much as breathe it, or move the weave as though it’s natural they should do so. Having a power like this naturally attracts fear and fame, which effects your ability to influence those around you whether or not it’s intentional or if you are attractive.
And the idea is that you are learning, but you don’t have to study force calculations, or the intricacies of the weave, or gain insight into the will of your god; you simply gather power as a powerful being shows you how. If the DM treats your warlock’s patron as being night school, with no real ramifications for how your character is treated by others, that’s lame.
Charisma isn’t just force of personality, or talent for social encounters, it’s about how others perceive you regardless of the reality. Gathering power affects how others perceive you, thus: charisma.
If you want a warlock who attains this by looking for occult books and studies in a more traditional sense to gain greater understanding of the weave of magic, well... take the proficiency and increase your intelligence. If you don’t like how it limits your character’s spell DC or spell Attack rolls, then use your intelligent warlock’s brain to take advantage of the many clever abilities they have to make up the difference. Darkness and devil’s Sight, familiars, lure bad guys into traps where your spells will be harder to avoid, etc. But there’s no getting around the fact that a warlock’s power comes from a change to their very being, not by comprehensive understanding, although they may have that.
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Personally it makes more sense to me that Warlocks who make deals with other worldly beings, use charisma. I think Sorcerers probably should be intelligence based as even latent blood born magic surely needs a keen mind to not destroy yourself with. In general I get the frustration that you are sort of locked into certain stats with whatever class you play unless you are willing to be hobbled throughout the game and Intelligence seems severely underused in 5e.
First off, if you know what type of character you want to play then spend the time to figure out how to make that work. I'd recommend investing at least as much time as you've spent trying to convince everyone that your idea of a Warlock is better than the idea the creators of the game went with. The same creaters who, oddly enough, encourage players to play the game in whatever way is fun for their table and homebrew away.
Secondly, you are just wrong. Any idiot (read low Int) with enough cahones (read high Cha) can make a deal with the devil. However, not just any scholar can learn to wield the elements and bend reality.
The pact a Warlock makes is just that, a trade of whatever the powerful entity is willing to accept in return for power the Warlock is unable gather through their own means, which is why they are willing to make a deal to begin with. An average Joe as you mention is not a trial lawyer, definitely not one smart enough to out bargain the devil. I have to argue that it is just more plausible to to say that someone with the intellect to be that good of a lawyer and a lust for arcane power would hit the books and just learn magic the Wizardly way. They would likely be smart enough to deduce that they are capable on their own and as such there is nothing the devil can offer in trade they cannot get for themselves without having to accept the steep terms such a gift would demand in return.
The average Joe with less than a grand in his bank account may well sell his soul for a million bucks, but how many millionaires are going to make that deal?
Also, there is no tricking the patron, you accept their terms and take the deal they offer or you don't get the power. They dont have to do business with you, you arent the only person desperate enough to head to the crossroads at midnight. Moreover, it just doesn't make sense that a level 1 character is skillful enough AT ANYTHING to stand a chance of getting one over on a being of such unimaginable power that it is able to bargain away enough of it's power that it amounts to a potentially level 20 force to reckoned with while and being willing to do so because in reality it is giving away only a fraction of it's own power to accomplish that.
Unless, of course, the type of character you want to play is just all kinds of OP and has his own Wizard level arcane ability with a pact for more magic above and beyond that while also being Sherlock Holmes. If that's the case and your DM is a glutton for punishment, then yeah, an Intlock seems legit.
I just figured that those that had enough personal willpower survived to make to lvl1. The poor souls that where very nearly warlocks either died mysteriously or where locked up by a church or by some other institution
Respectfully disagree. This is a common mistake I am seeing with Warlock RP that people make and the OP is correct to a degree that Intelligence likely makes more sense for Warlock or at least deserves to be an official alternate spellcasting stat for Warlock. With the exception of the level 20 ability where the Patron is directly recharging your magical reserves, Patron's do not provide Warlocks their power. They TEACH Warlocks arcane secrets but the power is the Warlock's alone and once that Eldritch Secret is shared, it cannot be taken back. This is not a Cleric/Deity relationship where the Warlock must continually stay in the good graces of their patron or all of a sudden loose all of their powers. This is a common mistake but a mistake nonetheless. From the opening descriptions of the Warlock class with emphasis added:
"Warlocks are seekers of the knowledge that lies hidden in the fabric of the multiverse"
"Drawing on the ancient knowledge of beings"
"warlocks piece together arcane secrets to bolster their own power"
Seeking knowledge, drawing on ancient knowledge and piecing together arcane secrets like a puzzle doesn't exactly strike me as the behavior of an idiot with cahones who convinced a powerful being to grant them magic pew pew powers. This is not unlike the difference between someone who learns a trade strictly in a classroom (Wizard) vs someone who learns by being more of an apprentice (Warlock). The Warlock is still going to spend time studying books but they learn best through observation of an expert rather than simply reading theory like a Wizard. Again the character description reinforces this:
"the arrangement is similar to that between a master and an apprentice"
Just my 2 cents. Long story short. Patrons do not gift warlocks their powers. They teach them arcane secrets which the warlock can then use at their whim. Based on this, an intelligence based Warlock would be entirely rational.
Arguments both ways, and apparently this was play-tested during D&D Next. I humbly suggest that there are many benefits to playing a high intelligence warlock, as the class stands. Charisma powers your offensive magic, yes, but the case to optimize for Cha (or any class' primary ability score) is often overstated.
Outside of combat, high Int helps if you take any of the five class skills that are intelligence-based. It can open up the Ritual Caster and other interesting feats, assist general intelligence checks, and support character concept (best of all, right?). Any character that emphasizes a secondary ability score will be a much more well-rounded and flexible character. Warlocks especially should welcome this, since the class encourages a diverse role in adventuring.
What if when you chose pact of the tome, you could choose to switch your spellcasting ability to intelligence instead of charisma? You wouldn't be forced to, but just as a choice. It would give that 'seeker of knowledge' type warlock feel, and make more sense for the ritual casting invocation.
Subclass Evaluations So Far:
Sorcerer
Warlock
My statblock. Fear me!
Hosted a battle between the Cult of Sedge and the Forum Counters here(Done now). I_Love_Tarrasques has won the fight, scoring a victory for the fiendish Moderators.
Actually, that's a really good solution right there.
Yeah, maybe a Tomelock goes INT, then DEX or CHA.
Bladelock would go CHA, then CON and DEX.
It would make sense wouldn't it? Although, there would be a mild issue with having to wait a level till you could make Intelligence your primary score.
But then, what would the problem be with having decent Charisma as well as Intelligence? If you have a good score in both, then you will be just as good for the first two levels as for the third and up.
Subclass Evaluations So Far:
Sorcerer
Warlock
My statblock. Fear me!
Hosted a battle between the Cult of Sedge and the Forum Counters here(Done now). I_Love_Tarrasques has won the fight, scoring a victory for the fiendish Moderators.
Sounds like a perfect use of a custom Invocation for Tome Pacts.
Because I don't want to have to prioritise a characteristic that is not an essential part of that character. If I want to play a Warlock who is driven by Intelligence, to decipher old tomes and learn ancient rituals and the like, that character won't necessarily be Charismatic at all.
So there is nothing wrong with having INT close to or equal to CHA in a character. The Mechanics don't make it essential only in respect to spell casting, and nothing else (for attack bonuses and Save DCs). A "regular" Warlock who wanted to have a Sage background, and be good in History, Arcana, etc would still need INT. So by that definition of character design it is essential, and achievable.
I get your idea of an INT based warlock mechanically. But I am curious, If you are trying to min max your character in a way so that INT is the only stat you care about; what would be your other stats be? What's competing for keeping two stats (CHA & INT) high?
Because it is only your spellcasting ability, not an ability for any invocations that state "Your Charisma modifier". Also, Charisma is a plenty good stat even if it's not your spell stat, so it would still make sense for you to keep your Charisma at least decent if you chose to make your spellcasting ability Intelligence. Honestly having Intelligence or Charisma as Warlock for the spellcasting ability would make sense, in my opinion. I usually keep both high even though Intelligence, mechanically, is not as useful.
Subclass Evaluations So Far:
Sorcerer
Warlock
My statblock. Fear me!
Hosted a battle between the Cult of Sedge and the Forum Counters here(Done now). I_Love_Tarrasques has won the fight, scoring a victory for the fiendish Moderators.
I agree with you yharim, as i don't see an issue. I intended the question for trippy as was interested in his reply.
:)
Ah, gotcha!
Also just as a general homerule for everyone here, since it's unearthed arcana, consider allowing Seeker Warlocks to use Intelligence for spellcasting if they so wish.
Subclass Evaluations So Far:
Sorcerer
Warlock
My statblock. Fear me!
Hosted a battle between the Cult of Sedge and the Forum Counters here(Done now). I_Love_Tarrasques has won the fight, scoring a victory for the fiendish Moderators.
My thought is that if you were an INT-based Warlock, and wanted to use that for spellcasting, as well as (maybe) crafting some Invocations to be more INT based, instead of CHA, that maybe you'd want to have your DEX fairly high for decent AC, and CON also for Concentration spells, and having an OK HP. You'd be more of a true caster, and less focused on running in with a sword.
If you've got high INT / DEX / CON, then you'd want to "dump" CHA, STR & WIS. Getting awful close to a Wizard, but, with distinctively different flavor. Maybe you'd have to suffer for a couple of levels, with your higher INT, until the Invocations and your Pact kick in, and then you'd really be able to go with the flow.
I see what you are going for. Although you say "Strikes a deal with a devil to overcome this" I take you don't mean as a side effect of the pact, you now have charisma as part of the bargain. Because that is totally playable, but I get it if you aren't going for it.
I personally don't see a Warlock as an int driven class, but that doesn't matter here. I am a big fan of trying to tell the story you want, but this one is hitting the mechanic wall hard. :(
I just figured that it was because fey and Fiend monsters base their Spellcasting on charisma. They don’t study magic so much as breathe it, or move the weave as though it’s natural they should do so. Having a power like this naturally attracts fear and fame, which effects your ability to influence those around you whether or not it’s intentional or if you are attractive.
And the idea is that you are learning, but you don’t have to study force calculations, or the intricacies of the weave, or gain insight into the will of your god; you simply gather power as a powerful being shows you how. If the DM treats your warlock’s patron as being night school, with no real ramifications for how your character is treated by others, that’s lame.
Charisma isn’t just force of personality, or talent for social encounters, it’s about how others perceive you regardless of the reality. Gathering power affects how others perceive you, thus: charisma.
If you want a warlock who attains this by looking for occult books and studies in a more traditional sense to gain greater understanding of the weave of magic, well... take the proficiency and increase your intelligence. If you don’t like how it limits your character’s spell DC or spell Attack rolls, then use your intelligent warlock’s brain to take advantage of the many clever abilities they have to make up the difference. Darkness and devil’s Sight, familiars, lure bad guys into traps where your spells will be harder to avoid, etc. But there’s no getting around the fact that a warlock’s power comes from a change to their very being, not by comprehensive understanding, although they may have that.
Paladin - warforged - orange