I think the new revised version looks great. Especially bottled respite and sanctuary vessel look amazing. You could have the party rogue or your familiar carry your vessel to sneak with them as backup on scouting missions. And at later levels you can do it with the whole party at later levels. Also helps if your dm isn't following the 2 short rests per day guideline. Also doubles as a bag of holding if you find too much treasure.
Early access to flying at level 6 is also great for a caster. Limited wish and wish as mystic Arcanum are also really good.
I'm thinking of a genasi warlock. Accident of a genie father, he was abandoned in the material plane, living in the streets of a large city. Later his father saw use for him and sold him to servitude of a genie noble, who made him his warlock. Now he is tasked with collecting interesting creatures and treasures for his masters amusement. He is slowly learning about his heritage during his adventures. (also possibly multiclassing into storm sorcerer at some point).
I am torn between Dao and Dinji. Dao gives resistance to bludgeoning damage (take that angry mob with large sticks!), but dinji gives greater invisibility (Add elfish accuracy for death from lasers).
Also, just one rules clarification, would the extra bludgeoning damage from Genie's wrath be magic bludgeoning or just normal bludgeoning? Assuming I chose Dao.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM: So, you doomed the world by betting on dinosauer races instead of doing a quest.
Players: But we got money! Now we can do whatever we want.
I love the varying types of patrons / their type of relationship with their warlock.
Djinn & Marids could conceivably be helpful and even kind...but Dao are notoriously greedy and Efreeti ruthless & cruel...and so a warlock might be forced into servitude or have to match their masters cruelty & avarice.
It's nice to have those options.
The powers are a joy...all of them scream "genie" and provide the elemental flavor the previous version lacked.
I like how my warlock can be a pseudo-genie...it gives them a taste of cosmic power, and something to strive for...just like all warlocks should want.
The "Lesser Wish" is potent, fun, and balanced...beseeching an all-powerful entity to give you the "right" spell is really no big deal for a mighty being like them...and having to wait a number of long rests before doing it again makes sense, as your patron might be annoyed / impatient with your requests, or want to teach you self-sufficiency.
My head is spinning about what Pact Boon to pick with this subclass...someone mentioned that "Bottled Respite" paired with "Pact of the Chain" really well; have your imp familiar carry your vessel with you inside it, completely invisible.
"Pact of the Blade" has some credibility, too...being able to fly is pretty good for a skirmisher. Add "Hellish Rebuke" and "Armor of Agathys" and you have an elemental warrior with "Eldritch Smites" and some elemental damage.
"Pact of the Tome" amps up the flexibility of the warlock...unrestricted Ritual Casting, combined with "Lesser Wish", suddenly makes the warlock a VERY versitile spellcaster. "Find Familiar" flavored as an elemental animal..."Phantom Steed"..."Unseen Servant"..."Forbiddance"...to name a few.
I am incredibly satisfied with this warlock subclass....it's a warlock I can see leveling all the way to 20.
I'm pretty happy with what I see from the Genie. Nothing about it screams OP to me and the features look meaningful and fun.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I would probably go with the pact of chain with genie for two reasons: invisible familiar with flying speed carrying your vessel from level 3 and chains of Carceri is great for planar adventures, with which this class fits nicely thematically.
Tome is good with everything, but I don't immediately notice any particular synergy with this patron. Pact of the blade is the only one that I don't see working that great with this patron. Even talisman might be good for some teleportation shenanigans.
It's a major improvement in every way over the previous iteration. I'm really hoping that this one makes it into print (along with Lurker in the Deep).
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I love this UA but it does outshine pretty much all of the other subclasses. Granting this class the ability to get Wish as a mystic arcanum for your 9th level spell feels like a huge bonus over any of the other subclasses. Granted this only applies at high level play but it feels very bad from a balance standpoint. It comes very close if not outright violates WOTC stated goal of never making a choice so obviously overpowered as to be the only right choice. This subclass already is granting arguably the best 14th level ability (You can argue it maybe ties with Fiend or Celestial) but certainly it is vastly better than Archfey, Hexblade, GOO or Undying level 14 abilities. Then add on this one subclass as being the only one warlock subclass able to get the most powerful spell in the game and it just seems like Genie becomes the obvious Warlock subclass. I haven't even touched the more bread and butter abilities at lower levels which are also very good. At least as powerful as the low level abilities of the upper tier warlock subclasses like Fiend, Hexblade and Celestial.
Having said all that- I am not advocating necessarily for the UA to be nerfed. I think it all fits very thematically with the concept of learning from and accessing similar powers to a genie. My point is more to highlight that in nearly all cases, subsequent subclasses that have been released in UA and new books tend to outshine the base PHB subclasses. I would very much be in favor of their power levels being adjusted upwards rather than Hexblade, Celestial, Lurker and Genie be adjusted downwards. Fiend already is pretty solid but I think the idea of each subclass having a 9th level arcanum option tied to subclass is a good one and it really is silly that a Fiend can't cast Meteor Swarm.
Should Fiendlocks get Meteor Swarm or would Gate be more appropriate if we decide to add a new 9th level spell to ever Warlock's list based on their patron?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I would add gate for fiendlock. Then again, the class feature variants UA already adds that to warlock spell list... I feel like Gate and Shapechange should have been on the warlock spell list to begin with, but Wish fits specifically Genie patron.
Fiend - Gate
Great Old One - Psychic scream? Already on the list
Archfey - Timestop?
Genie - Wish
Hexblade - Foresight? Already on the list, not sure what would be thematically fitting.
Celestial - True resurrection? Mass Heal? Prismatic wall?
Undying one - Power word kill. Already on the list.
Should Fiendlocks get Meteor Swarm or would Gate be more appropriate if we decide to add a new 9th level spell to ever Warlock's list based on their patron?
I would argue Meteor Swarm fits their expanded spells motif more than Gate when you consider Fiend primarily gets fire based expanded spells rather than summoning based expanded spells. My recommendations would be as follows for 9th level spells:
All Warlocks= Ravenous Void should be added to the Warlock Spell List. This seems very fitting along with Hunger of Hadar and Maddening Darkness.
Fiend= Meteor Swarm. Fits with the overall motif of Fiend enhancing the warlocks ability to be a blaster
Archfey= Prismatic Wall or Time Stop. Fits with Fey theme of light and time manipulation.
Celestial= Mass Heal. Fits with the Healing/Avenger style theme of the subclass.
Great Old One= Invulnerability or Weird. Fits with Elder Gods typically being invulnerable or causing madness/fear.
Hexblade= Time Ravage. Fits with Curse power theme of the class.
Undying= True Resurrection. Fits with the power over death theme of the class.
Great Old One= Invulnerability or Weird. Fits with Elder Gods typically being invulnerable or causing madness/fear.
One one hand weird fits, but
- It is not a very good spell
- as an illusion it might fit Archfey better than Great Old One.
Yeah I agree it's not really 9th level worthy. But it definitely feels thematic for GOO in my opinion since it is specifically creating a nightmare that causes psychic damage. With Fey I feel like they are more likely to Charm you but that's just me.
I made a few test characters. I had thought that the genies wrath might help with a bladelock too (with eldritch armor), but when you don't get to use your charisma, it just gets too MAD. Works if you roll really hight stats, but with point buy you just run out of ASI when you would want high charisma, strength and constitution and you would also need some feats too (resilient, warcaster, gwm or pwm. And elemental adept if you are using a lot of fire spells). It is a bit frustrating that you almost need to choose hexblade in order to be a bladelock. I had an mental image of a burning efreeti warlock hurting though the air towards his foes brandishing a flaming great sword, but it doesn't work very well in practice.
On the other hand, Tome and Chain produce really nice normal warlocks with genie.
I love this UA but it does outshine pretty much all of the other subclasses. Granting this class the ability to get Wish as a mystic arcanum for your 9th level spell feels like a huge bonus over any of the other subclasses. Granted this only applies at high level play but it feels very bad from a balance standpoint. It comes very close if not outright violates WOTC stated goal of never making a choice so obviously overpowered as to be the only right choice. This subclass already is granting arguably the best 14th level ability (You can argue it maybe ties with Fiend or Celestial) but certainly it is vastly better than Archfey, Hexblade, GOO or Undying level 14 abilities. Then add on this one subclass as being the only one warlock subclass able to get the most powerful spell in the game and it just seems like Genie becomes the obvious Warlock subclass. I haven't even touched the more bread and butter abilities at lower levels which are also very good. At least as powerful as the low level abilities of the upper tier warlock subclasses like Fiend, Hexblade and Celestial.
Having said all that- I am not advocating necessarily for the UA to be nerfed. I think it all fits very thematically with the concept of learning from and accessing similar powers to a genie. My point is more to highlight that in nearly all cases, subsequent subclasses that have been released in UA and new books tend to outshine the base PHB subclasses. I would very much be in favor of their power levels being adjusted upwards rather than Hexblade, Celestial, Lurker and Genie be adjusted downwards. Fiend already is pretty solid but I think the idea of each subclass having a 9th level arcanum option tied to subclass is a good one and it really is silly that a Fiend can't cast Meteor Swarm.
I feel that the WOTC policy of rebalancing classes with new subclasses is a bit flawed. Bladelock wasn't really viable so they made hexblade with abilities that pact of the blade should have had to begin with. I think that Genie is an attempt at accounting for the fact that many tables don't follow the default adventuring day, which leaves warlocks with significantly fewer spell slots per encounter than other casters. Bottled respite helps a little bit with that by letting you have at least one short rest in a day. It is a cool and flavorful way of doing it, and I think it works better than Hexblade, because it doesn't invalidate other patrons for a certain pact. Genie is very good, but Fiend, Archfey and Great Old One are still good too.
I think it would have been good to have expanded spell list for all 9 levels for all patrons. Genie is a prototype that showed it works well on 9th level. So I'm hoping that the next book would come out with class ability variants with new subclasses, and it would include the genie along with expanded mystic arcanums for other patrons too.
I think the subclass features are great. Useful and thematic without being overpowered. I'm really wanting to try out a Genie Warlock just to get access to Limited Wish at 14th level. (Might even make me try out a full 17 or 19 levels of Warlock... of course, no need to bother with their 20th level.)
Would have been nice if it meshed better with Pact of the Blade, although I suppose that could be said of any subclass except Hexblade.
An important caveat regarding Wish is that, unlike any other caster that gets access to that spell, the genielock has to be a lot more wary of using one of its non-spell-replication effects. Unlike your wizard/sorcerer/bard/arcana cleric, your genielock doesn't actually have a 9th level spell slot, they only have their mystic arcanum. This means that, if they lose the ability to cast Wish, they can't upcast another spell at 9th level. Given that mystic arcanum can't be retrained, then, a genielock who loses the ability to Wish can never cast a 9th level spell again.
Is it a strong feature to give a warlock subclass? Absolutely. Does it make the genie an unbalanced patron? Hardly. Should WotC add 9th level spell options to the other subclasses? I wouldn't be too upset if they did, but I think it would be a mistake. Giving Wish to the genielock creates a risk/reward balancing act that no other class or subclass has, and which none of the (good) suggestions above could emulate. Giving Meteor Swarm to the Fiend is all benefit, no risk, but warlocks are all about taking risks to get great power. I'd say let the genielocks have this one.
An important caveat regarding Wish is that, unlike any other caster that gets access to that spell, the genielock has to be a lot more wary of using one of its non-spell-replication effects. Unlike your wizard/sorcerer/bard/arcana cleric, your genielock doesn't actually have a 9th level spell slot, they only have their mystic arcanum. This means that, if they lose the ability to cast Wish, they can't upcast another spell at 9th level. Given that mystic arcanum can't be retrained, then, a genielock who loses the ability to Wish can never cast a 9th level spell again.
Is it a strong feature to give a warlock subclass? Absolutely. Does it make the genie an unbalanced patron? Hardly. Should WotC add 9th level spell options to the other subclasses? I wouldn't be too upset if they did, but I think it would be a mistake. Giving Wish to the genielock creates a risk/reward balancing act that no other class or subclass has, and which none of the (good) suggestions above could emulate. Giving Meteor Swarm to the Fiend is all benefit, no risk, but warlocks are all about taking risks to get great power. I'd say let the genielocks have this one.
That chance of loosing Wish only occurs when you use it to do something other than duplicating any 8th level or lower spell in the game. Being able to cast any spell of 8th or lower with NO MATERIAL COMPONENT COST still makes this ridiculously more powerful and flexible than any other level 9 choice the Warlock has.
What does everyone think?
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I think the new revised version looks great. Especially bottled respite and sanctuary vessel look amazing. You could have the party rogue or your familiar carry your vessel to sneak with them as backup on scouting missions. And at later levels you can do it with the whole party at later levels. Also helps if your dm isn't following the 2 short rests per day guideline. Also doubles as a bag of holding if you find too much treasure.
Early access to flying at level 6 is also great for a caster. Limited wish and wish as mystic Arcanum are also really good.
I'm thinking of a genasi warlock. Accident of a genie father, he was abandoned in the material plane, living in the streets of a large city. Later his father saw use for him and sold him to servitude of a genie noble, who made him his warlock. Now he is tasked with collecting interesting creatures and treasures for his masters amusement. He is slowly learning about his heritage during his adventures. (also possibly multiclassing into storm sorcerer at some point).
I am torn between Dao and Dinji. Dao gives resistance to bludgeoning damage (take that angry mob with large sticks!), but dinji gives greater invisibility (Add elfish accuracy for death from lasers).
Also, just one rules clarification, would the extra bludgeoning damage from Genie's wrath be magic bludgeoning or just normal bludgeoning? Assuming I chose Dao.
DM: So, you doomed the world by betting on dinosauer races instead of doing a quest.
Players: But we got money! Now we can do whatever we want.
DM: You are all dead, you can't spend your money!
Players: Oh.
I love the varying types of patrons / their type of relationship with their warlock.
Djinn & Marids could conceivably be helpful and even kind...but Dao are notoriously greedy and Efreeti ruthless & cruel...and so a warlock might be forced into servitude or have to match their masters cruelty & avarice.
It's nice to have those options.
The powers are a joy...all of them scream "genie" and provide the elemental flavor the previous version lacked.
I like how my warlock can be a pseudo-genie...it gives them a taste of cosmic power, and something to strive for...just like all warlocks should want.
The "Lesser Wish" is potent, fun, and balanced...beseeching an all-powerful entity to give you the "right" spell is really no big deal for a mighty being like them...and having to wait a number of long rests before doing it again makes sense, as your patron might be annoyed / impatient with your requests, or want to teach you self-sufficiency.
My head is spinning about what Pact Boon to pick with this subclass...someone mentioned that "Bottled Respite" paired with "Pact of the Chain" really well; have your imp familiar carry your vessel with you inside it, completely invisible.
"Pact of the Blade" has some credibility, too...being able to fly is pretty good for a skirmisher. Add "Hellish Rebuke" and "Armor of Agathys" and you have an elemental warrior with "Eldritch Smites" and some elemental damage.
"Pact of the Tome" amps up the flexibility of the warlock...unrestricted Ritual Casting, combined with "Lesser Wish", suddenly makes the warlock a VERY versitile spellcaster. "Find Familiar" flavored as an elemental animal..."Phantom Steed"..."Unseen Servant"..."Forbiddance"...to name a few.
I am incredibly satisfied with this warlock subclass....it's a warlock I can see leveling all the way to 20.
I'm pretty happy with what I see from the Genie. Nothing about it screams OP to me and the features look meaningful and fun.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I would probably go with the pact of chain with genie for two reasons: invisible familiar with flying speed carrying your vessel from level 3 and chains of Carceri is great for planar adventures, with which this class fits nicely thematically.
Tome is good with everything, but I don't immediately notice any particular synergy with this patron. Pact of the blade is the only one that I don't see working that great with this patron. Even talisman might be good for some teleportation shenanigans.
It's a major improvement in every way over the previous iteration. I'm really hoping that this one makes it into print (along with Lurker in the Deep).
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
This an the UA Pact boon option, pact of the totem/trinket, whatever. trusting someone to hold your lamp makes them better at things.
I love this UA but it does outshine pretty much all of the other subclasses. Granting this class the ability to get Wish as a mystic arcanum for your 9th level spell feels like a huge bonus over any of the other subclasses. Granted this only applies at high level play but it feels very bad from a balance standpoint. It comes very close if not outright violates WOTC stated goal of never making a choice so obviously overpowered as to be the only right choice. This subclass already is granting arguably the best 14th level ability (You can argue it maybe ties with Fiend or Celestial) but certainly it is vastly better than Archfey, Hexblade, GOO or Undying level 14 abilities. Then add on this one subclass as being the only one warlock subclass able to get the most powerful spell in the game and it just seems like Genie becomes the obvious Warlock subclass. I haven't even touched the more bread and butter abilities at lower levels which are also very good. At least as powerful as the low level abilities of the upper tier warlock subclasses like Fiend, Hexblade and Celestial.
Having said all that- I am not advocating necessarily for the UA to be nerfed. I think it all fits very thematically with the concept of learning from and accessing similar powers to a genie. My point is more to highlight that in nearly all cases, subsequent subclasses that have been released in UA and new books tend to outshine the base PHB subclasses. I would very much be in favor of their power levels being adjusted upwards rather than Hexblade, Celestial, Lurker and Genie be adjusted downwards. Fiend already is pretty solid but I think the idea of each subclass having a 9th level arcanum option tied to subclass is a good one and it really is silly that a Fiend can't cast Meteor Swarm.
Should Fiendlocks get Meteor Swarm or would Gate be more appropriate if we decide to add a new 9th level spell to ever Warlock's list based on their patron?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I would add gate for fiendlock. Then again, the class feature variants UA already adds that to warlock spell list... I feel like Gate and Shapechange should have been on the warlock spell list to begin with, but Wish fits specifically Genie patron.
Fiend - Gate
Great Old One - Psychic scream? Already on the list
Archfey - Timestop?
Genie - Wish
Hexblade - Foresight? Already on the list, not sure what would be thematically fitting.
Celestial - True resurrection? Mass Heal? Prismatic wall?
Undying one - Power word kill. Already on the list.
I would argue Meteor Swarm fits their expanded spells motif more than Gate when you consider Fiend primarily gets fire based expanded spells rather than summoning based expanded spells. My recommendations would be as follows for 9th level spells:
All Warlocks= Ravenous Void should be added to the Warlock Spell List. This seems very fitting along with Hunger of Hadar and Maddening Darkness.
Fiend= Meteor Swarm. Fits with the overall motif of Fiend enhancing the warlocks ability to be a blaster
Archfey= Prismatic Wall or Time Stop. Fits with Fey theme of light and time manipulation.
Celestial= Mass Heal. Fits with the Healing/Avenger style theme of the subclass.
Great Old One= Invulnerability or Weird. Fits with Elder Gods typically being invulnerable or causing madness/fear.
Hexblade= Time Ravage. Fits with Curse power theme of the class.
Undying= True Resurrection. Fits with the power over death theme of the class.
One one hand weird fits, but
- It is not a very good spell
- as an illusion it might fit Archfey better than Great Old One.
Yeah I agree it's not really 9th level worthy. But it definitely feels thematic for GOO in my opinion since it is specifically creating a nightmare that causes psychic damage. With Fey I feel like they are more likely to Charm you but that's just me.
I made a few test characters. I had thought that the genies wrath might help with a bladelock too (with eldritch armor), but when you don't get to use your charisma, it just gets too MAD. Works if you roll really hight stats, but with point buy you just run out of ASI when you would want high charisma, strength and constitution and you would also need some feats too (resilient, warcaster, gwm or pwm. And elemental adept if you are using a lot of fire spells). It is a bit frustrating that you almost need to choose hexblade in order to be a bladelock. I had an mental image of a burning efreeti warlock hurting though the air towards his foes brandishing a flaming great sword, but it doesn't work very well in practice.
On the other hand, Tome and Chain produce really nice normal warlocks with genie.
I feel that the WOTC policy of rebalancing classes with new subclasses is a bit flawed. Bladelock wasn't really viable so they made hexblade with abilities that pact of the blade should have had to begin with. I think that Genie is an attempt at accounting for the fact that many tables don't follow the default adventuring day, which leaves warlocks with significantly fewer spell slots per encounter than other casters. Bottled respite helps a little bit with that by letting you have at least one short rest in a day. It is a cool and flavorful way of doing it, and I think it works better than Hexblade, because it doesn't invalidate other patrons for a certain pact. Genie is very good, but Fiend, Archfey and Great Old One are still good too.
I think it would have been good to have expanded spell list for all 9 levels for all patrons. Genie is a prototype that showed it works well on 9th level. So I'm hoping that the next book would come out with class ability variants with new subclasses, and it would include the genie along with expanded mystic arcanums for other patrons too.
I think the subclass features are great. Useful and thematic without being overpowered. I'm really wanting to try out a Genie Warlock just to get access to Limited Wish at 14th level. (Might even make me try out a full 17 or 19 levels of Warlock... of course, no need to bother with their 20th level.)
Would have been nice if it meshed better with Pact of the Blade, although I suppose that could be said of any subclass except Hexblade.
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>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
Anyone notice that Wish is missing from the list of level 9 spells for this subclass in the character builder?
An important caveat regarding Wish is that, unlike any other caster that gets access to that spell, the genielock has to be a lot more wary of using one of its non-spell-replication effects. Unlike your wizard/sorcerer/bard/arcana cleric, your genielock doesn't actually have a 9th level spell slot, they only have their mystic arcanum. This means that, if they lose the ability to cast Wish, they can't upcast another spell at 9th level. Given that mystic arcanum can't be retrained, then, a genielock who loses the ability to Wish can never cast a 9th level spell again.
Is it a strong feature to give a warlock subclass? Absolutely. Does it make the genie an unbalanced patron? Hardly. Should WotC add 9th level spell options to the other subclasses? I wouldn't be too upset if they did, but I think it would be a mistake. Giving Wish to the genielock creates a risk/reward balancing act that no other class or subclass has, and which none of the (good) suggestions above could emulate. Giving Meteor Swarm to the Fiend is all benefit, no risk, but warlocks are all about taking risks to get great power. I'd say let the genielocks have this one.
That chance of loosing Wish only occurs when you use it to do something other than duplicating any 8th level or lower spell in the game. Being able to cast any spell of 8th or lower with NO MATERIAL COMPONENT COST still makes this ridiculously more powerful and flexible than any other level 9 choice the Warlock has.
Wish at ninth level makes me wish there were more patron specific mystic Arcanum. For example
Efreeti: firestorm, incendiary cloud
Djinn: Chain lightning, Whirlwind
Dao: Move earth/Bones of the Earth, earthquake,
Marid: Maelstrom, tsunami