And they can just order the skeletons to move back or forward as needed. And they're considered allies so you can move through their spaces - it just counts as difficult terrain, but dashing is a thing and as you move one way the skellies move the other, so all works out fine. And the more sensible option could be have some skellies in front to trigger traps or as a buffer in case of enemies, and have some behind so you have protection at the rear too.
Reading your posts you seem to be doing the whole "I don't like this, so I'm going to invent scenarios to prove my point". And, not even doing a very good job at that either.
A horde of undead is the biggest reason why many choose to play Necromancer. The biggest potential drawback is the time spent rolling for your minions -- but there are a myriad of ways to mitigate that. From the actual Mob rules in DMG to homebrew quicker rules (like roll attack and damage once, they all do that - etc) or using digital play for making macros to roll it all for you. And more besides these. I played conjuror before, high level, with 8 minions : my basic turns for moving and attacking with everything took 30 seconds - and most of that was "movement" - the rolls were automated in a macro and that was more complicated than a bunch of skellies since they all had diff stats.
You haven't actually presented any solid reason why any DM would ban Necromancers having their minions. It's not like the DM can't just use Forbiddance or have the enemy include a Cleric. Skellies and zombies are a very low level threat - easily countered by any DM. A wizard with all their spell slots is far more of a threat than a wizard that has used up most of their slots maintaining weak little skellies. The necro is deliberately nerfing their magic for the thematics and niche numbers-advantage of an undead horde. It's very sub-optimal play, for the fun.
If a DM cannot handle the party with their skellies, they be a shitty DM.
You are welcome to your opinion. I find it selfish. I mean, you want to take game time to move all your skelies one way and the PCs another? There comes a point when you just cannot play any more skeletons without taking more time and more grief than any other PC at the table.
The game doesn't center on you. You are not the most important thing at the table. The group of players is.
As for having your skeletons, you can have six or so. That might not be too much of an issue if you are a really good player. But, a 20th level Necromancer can, by RAW, have a lot more than that. Long before you hit that max, you'll start taking up an undue amount of time. There is plenty that you can do to feel like a Necromancer besides Animate Dead. Soul Cage, Magic Jar, Sickening Radiance, Clone, all give you that feel.
"The biggest potential drawback is the time spent rolling for your minions -- but there are a myriad of ways to mitigate that. From the actual Mob rules in DMG to homebrew quicker rules (like roll attack and damage once, they all do that - etc) or using digital play for making macros to roll it all for you. And more besides these. I played conjuror before, high level, with 8 minions : my basic turns for moving and attacking with everything took 30 seconds - and most of that was "movement" - the rolls were automated in a macro and that was more complicated than a bunch of skellies since they all had diff stats. "
Lets highlight a bit more.
"The biggest potential drawback is the time spent rolling for your minions -- but there are a myriad of ways to mitigate that. From the actual Mob rules in DMG to homebrew quicker rules (like roll attack and damage once, they all do that - etc) or using digital play for making macros to roll it all for you. And more besides these. I played conjuror before, high level, with 8 minions : my basic turns for moving and attacking with everything took 30 seconds - and most of that was "movement" - the rolls were automated in a macro and that was more complicated than a bunch of skellies since they all had diff stats. "
And in case it still eluded you...
The biggest potential drawback is the time spent rolling for your minions -- but there are a myriad of ways to mitigate that. From the actual Mob rules in DMG to homebrew quicker rules (like roll attack and damage once, they all do that - etc) or using digital play for making macros to roll it all for you. And more besides these. I played conjuror before, high level, with 8 minions : my basic turns for moving and attacking with everything took 30 seconds - and most of that was "movement" - the rolls were automated in a macro and that was more complicated than a bunch of skellies since they all had diff stats.
And they can just order the skeletons to move back or forward as needed. And they're considered allies so you can move through their spaces - it just counts as difficult terrain, but dashing is a thing and as you move one way the skellies move the other, so all works out fine. And the more sensible option could be have some skellies in front to trigger traps or as a buffer in case of enemies, and have some behind so you have protection at the rear too.
Reading your posts you seem to be doing the whole "I don't like this, so I'm going to invent scenarios to prove my point". And, not even doing a very good job at that either.
A horde of undead is the biggest reason why many choose to play Necromancer. The biggest potential drawback is the time spent rolling for your minions -- but there are a myriad of ways to mitigate that. From the actual Mob rules in DMG to homebrew quicker rules (like roll attack and damage once, they all do that - etc) or using digital play for making macros to roll it all for you. And more besides these. I played conjuror before, high level, with 8 minions : my basic turns for moving and attacking with everything took 30 seconds - and most of that was "movement" - the rolls were automated in a macro and that was more complicated than a bunch of skellies since they all had diff stats.
You haven't actually presented any solid reason why any DM would ban Necromancers having their minions. It's not like the DM can't just use Forbiddance or have the enemy include a Cleric. Skellies and zombies are a very low level threat - easily countered by any DM. A wizard with all their spell slots is far more of a threat than a wizard that has used up most of their slots maintaining weak little skellies. The necro is deliberately nerfing their magic for the thematics and niche numbers-advantage of an undead horde. It's very sub-optimal play, for the fun.
If a DM cannot handle the party with their skellies, they be a shitty DM.
You are welcome to your opinion. I find it selfish. I mean, you want to take game time to move all your skelies one way and the PCs another? There comes a point when you just cannot play any more skeletons without taking more time and more grief than any other PC at the table.
The game doesn't center on you. You are not the most important thing at the table. The group of players is.
As for having your skeletons, you can have six or so. That might not be too much of an issue if you are a really good player. But, a 20th level Necromancer can, by RAW, have a lot more than that. Long before you hit that max, you'll start taking up an undue amount of time. There is plenty that you can do to feel like a Necromancer besides Animate Dead. Soul Cage, Magic Jar, Sickening Radiance, Clone, all give you that feel.
Let me quote yourself at this:
"I don't know what happens at your table and can't speak for it, (just as I'd appreciate it if you don't speak for what happens at the tables I've played at)"
No idea what happens at your table that you're this dismissive over a non-issue, but it's not something I've ever encountered at mine. None of my friends have a problem with me moving some zombies in my turn.
I don't know what happens at your table and can't speak for it, (just as I'd appreciate it if you don't speak for what happens at the tables I've played at), but the only PCs that have everr been at a 5e game alongside my PC have been of a PHB race, with one exception - a goliath in an Iceland Dale campaign.
Even limited to PHB races you've got dragonborn who are literal dragon humanoids, tieflings who are half devils, drow who are typically hostile to all surface dwellers and so-on, and even if you're playing the most vanilla party possible with only humans, regular elves, dwarfs, halflings and the like, they're still a party of adventurers; so they're going to be bristling with weapons of various forms, if they've just come from another encounter then they're probably soaked in gore, and either way they definitely look capable of hitting a town like an out of control freight train. For my recently completed Frostmaiden campaign we had a party of an aarakocra, a minotaur, a tiefling, a human (who spent most of his time in a half-bear hybrid transformation) and a half-elf assassin who alternated at random between attempting to seduce or threaten anyone she interacted with (often within the same conversation).
You've also already established that the figure is running away from the party no matter what, so any plan that doesn't involve surrounding the building is likely to fail to catch it, you've established that there's something wrong about the shape, so any plan that doesn't take precautions is likely to end badly if they're not friendly (which the signs you gave heavily hint the party should consider as a possibility) and even if you surround the building only with fully alive player characters, there's no guarantee the figure will run into the one that's best at calming someone down. If anything, if it were me I'd be less scared of a load of skeletons loosely surrounding the building, because I figure I'd stand a chance at getting past your average skeleton, but I'd be less confident about getting past your average potential murder hobo.
But this is all such a weird hypothetical because you only asked what someone would do with the skeletons; so I proposed surround the building to prevent escape, and send one in to sweep the front room in case of an ambush, traps etc. But if you want to look at how a D&D scenario is actually played, there'd be an entire party with their own ideas or tasks to perform in any plan. For example, if Lorne Hope (the selfless skelly sweeper) doesn't find anything I'd expect at least one party member to follow it in, if there's a Bard or other face in the party they might try calling out to the figure to see if it can be convinced we only want to know what happened to the town. Depending upon what spells I have prepared I might setup some other means of capture like web or snare, or stand ready with hypnotic pattern or whatever, or at the very least will be monitoring my undead to react to changes in the situation and to try and capture the figure, and so-on.
In terms of how games are actually run the DM should concern themselves foremost with the party's stated goals (prevent the strange figure from escaping the building, sweep the interior cautiously), the specifics only really matter in so far as they are plausible to that goal and determine what rolls you need to make (if any), and tell the story of how you achieved your goals (or failed spectacularly). In this case if the goal is keep the figure in the building, then surrounding it should be reasonable, while searching the front room with a sacrificial skelly should likewise be reasonable.
And they can just order the skeletons to move back or forward as needed. And they're considered allies so you can move through their spaces - it just counts as difficult terrain, but dashing is a thing and as you move one way the skellies move the other, so all works out fine. And the more sensible option could be have some skellies in front to trigger traps or as a buffer in case of enemies, and have some behind so you have protection at the rear too.
Reading your posts you seem to be doing the whole "I don't like this, so I'm going to invent scenarios to prove my point". And, not even doing a very good job at that either.
A horde of undead is the biggest reason why many choose to play Necromancer. The biggest potential drawback is the time spent rolling for your minions -- but there are a myriad of ways to mitigate that. From the actual Mob rules in DMG to homebrew quicker rules (like roll attack and damage once, they all do that - etc) or using digital play for making macros to roll it all for you. And more besides these. I played conjuror before, high level, with 8 minions : my basic turns for moving and attacking with everything took 30 seconds - and most of that was "movement" - the rolls were automated in a macro and that was more complicated than a bunch of skellies since they all had diff stats.
You haven't actually presented any solid reason why any DM would ban Necromancers having their minions. It's not like the DM can't just use Forbiddance or have the enemy include a Cleric. Skellies and zombies are a very low level threat - easily countered by any DM. A wizard with all their spell slots is far more of a threat than a wizard that has used up most of their slots maintaining weak little skellies. The necro is deliberately nerfing their magic for the thematics and niche numbers-advantage of an undead horde. It's very sub-optimal play, for the fun.
If a DM cannot handle the party with their skellies, they be a shitty DM.
You are welcome to your opinion. I find it selfish. I mean, you want to take game time to move all your skelies one way and the PCs another? There comes a point when you just cannot play any more skeletons without taking more time and more grief than any other PC at the table.
The game doesn't center on you. You are not the most important thing at the table. The group of players is.
As for having your skeletons, you can have six or so. That might not be too much of an issue if you are a really good player. But, a 20th level Necromancer can, by RAW, have a lot more than that. Long before you hit that max, you'll start taking up an undue amount of time. There is plenty that you can do to feel like a Necromancer besides Animate Dead. Soul Cage, Magic Jar, Sickening Radiance, Clone, all give you that feel.
Let me quote yourself at this:
"I don't know what happens at your table and can't speak for it, (just as I'd appreciate it if you don't speak for what happens at the tables I've played at)"
No idea what happens at your table that you're this dismissive over a non-issue, but it's not something I've ever encountered at mine. None of my friends have a problem with me moving some zombies in my turn.
I never told you how you must play. I said Most tables are simply not going to allow a Necromancer to dungeon crawl with 16 skeletons. In a tight hallway, those skeletons will get in everybody's way.
Obviously, if you are some DnD wunderdkind, your game isn't going to represent most.
I never told you how you must play. I said Most tables are simply not going to allow a Necromancer to dungeon crawl with 16 skeletons. In a tight hallway, those skeletons will get in everybody's way.
Can you provide a citation for this statement? Where's the evidence for "most tables" not allowing this?
Because I'd wager most groups want to have fun together, and they're not looking for an excuse to get rid of a player; most campaigns also don't start at such a high level that the necromancer jumps straight to being able to raise and maintain sixteen minions (necromancers actually can't raise any at level 1, they have to wait until 5th-level, which is why I made my lower level dead raising spell so a player in a campaign could get started sooner).
With this in mind the way that the group handles one or more players having minions is going to evolve over time; just because you might be waiting for the chance to raise them as corpses, doesn't mean you need to ignore your group's wishes when it comes to deciding on your party's marching order, and over time the group will likely settle on their preferred default plan (e.g- four skeletons in front as a shield/to trigger traps, with twelve behind as backup/spares) and so that's what you'll do. If the dungeon has particularly tight corridors (5-feet wide rather than 10-feet) then you can adjust strategies; there isn't a single answer to every question, which is why the group decides collaboratively.
Also, skeletons being "in everybody's way" also means skeletons being in the enemy's way, it means them taking fire instead of your teammates, which is one of the benefits of having them (the skeletons, not the teammates); you seem determined to frame the necromancer as nothing but an impediment to everybody else's good time, but if your game has reached the point where they have sixteen minions then everybody should be well used to having one in the party. There are plenty of ways to speed up handling multiple minions; I've rarely experienced dice rolling or movement as a major delay in a game, far more often it's indecision or misunderstanding, which is nothing unique to a necromancer.
And they can just order the skeletons to move back or forward as needed. And they're considered allies so you can move through their spaces - it just counts as difficult terrain, but dashing is a thing and as you move one way the skellies move the other, so all works out fine. And the more sensible option could be have some skellies in front to trigger traps or as a buffer in case of enemies, and have some behind so you have protection at the rear too.
Reading your posts you seem to be doing the whole "I don't like this, so I'm going to invent scenarios to prove my point". And, not even doing a very good job at that either.
A horde of undead is the biggest reason why many choose to play Necromancer. The biggest potential drawback is the time spent rolling for your minions -- but there are a myriad of ways to mitigate that. From the actual Mob rules in DMG to homebrew quicker rules (like roll attack and damage once, they all do that - etc) or using digital play for making macros to roll it all for you. And more besides these. I played conjuror before, high level, with 8 minions : my basic turns for moving and attacking with everything took 30 seconds - and most of that was "movement" - the rolls were automated in a macro and that was more complicated than a bunch of skellies since they all had diff stats.
You haven't actually presented any solid reason why any DM would ban Necromancers having their minions. It's not like the DM can't just use Forbiddance or have the enemy include a Cleric. Skellies and zombies are a very low level threat - easily countered by any DM. A wizard with all their spell slots is far more of a threat than a wizard that has used up most of their slots maintaining weak little skellies. The necro is deliberately nerfing their magic for the thematics and niche numbers-advantage of an undead horde. It's very sub-optimal play, for the fun.
If a DM cannot handle the party with their skellies, they be a shitty DM.
You are welcome to your opinion. I find it selfish. I mean, you want to take game time to move all your skelies one way and the PCs another? There comes a point when you just cannot play any more skeletons without taking more time and more grief than any other PC at the table.
The game doesn't center on you. You are not the most important thing at the table. The group of players is.
As for having your skeletons, you can have six or so. That might not be too much of an issue if you are a really good player. But, a 20th level Necromancer can, by RAW, have a lot more than that. Long before you hit that max, you'll start taking up an undue amount of time. There is plenty that you can do to feel like a Necromancer besides Animate Dead. Soul Cage, Magic Jar, Sickening Radiance, Clone, all give you that feel.
Let me quote yourself at this:
"I don't know what happens at your table and can't speak for it, (just as I'd appreciate it if you don't speak for what happens at the tables I've played at)"
No idea what happens at your table that you're this dismissive over a non-issue, but it's not something I've ever encountered at mine. None of my friends have a problem with me moving some zombies in my turn.
I never told you how you must play. I said Most tables are simply not going to allow a Necromancer to dungeon crawl with 16 skeletons. In a tight hallway, those skeletons will get in everybody's way.
Obviously, if you are some DnD wunderdkind, your game isn't going to represent most.
Ah sure, so only your way of playing suits "most tables" but people who disagree with you, mind you multiples in just this thread already, aren't "most table" for some reason. Sorry to break it to you but you're being extremely hypocritical here right now.
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I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
And they can just order the skeletons to move back or forward as needed. And they're considered allies so you can move through their spaces - it just counts as difficult terrain, but dashing is a thing and as you move one way the skellies move the other, so all works out fine. And the more sensible option could be have some skellies in front to trigger traps or as a buffer in case of enemies, and have some behind so you have protection at the rear too.
Reading your posts you seem to be doing the whole "I don't like this, so I'm going to invent scenarios to prove my point". And, not even doing a very good job at that either.
A horde of undead is the biggest reason why many choose to play Necromancer. The biggest potential drawback is the time spent rolling for your minions -- but there are a myriad of ways to mitigate that. From the actual Mob rules in DMG to homebrew quicker rules (like roll attack and damage once, they all do that - etc) or using digital play for making macros to roll it all for you. And more besides these. I played conjuror before, high level, with 8 minions : my basic turns for moving and attacking with everything took 30 seconds - and most of that was "movement" - the rolls were automated in a macro and that was more complicated than a bunch of skellies since they all had diff stats.
You haven't actually presented any solid reason why any DM would ban Necromancers having their minions. It's not like the DM can't just use Forbiddance or have the enemy include a Cleric. Skellies and zombies are a very low level threat - easily countered by any DM. A wizard with all their spell slots is far more of a threat than a wizard that has used up most of their slots maintaining weak little skellies. The necro is deliberately nerfing their magic for the thematics and niche numbers-advantage of an undead horde. It's very sub-optimal play, for the fun.
If a DM cannot handle the party with their skellies, they be a shitty DM.
You are welcome to your opinion. I find it selfish. I mean, you want to take game time to move all your skelies one way and the PCs another? There comes a point when you just cannot play any more skeletons without taking more time and more grief than any other PC at the table.
The game doesn't center on you. You are not the most important thing at the table. The group of players is.
As for having your skeletons, you can have six or so. That might not be too much of an issue if you are a really good player. But, a 20th level Necromancer can, by RAW, have a lot more than that. Long before you hit that max, you'll start taking up an undue amount of time. There is plenty that you can do to feel like a Necromancer besides Animate Dead. Soul Cage, Magic Jar, Sickening Radiance, Clone, all give you that feel.
Let me quote yourself at this:
"I don't know what happens at your table and can't speak for it, (just as I'd appreciate it if you don't speak for what happens at the tables I've played at)"
No idea what happens at your table that you're this dismissive over a non-issue, but it's not something I've ever encountered at mine. None of my friends have a problem with me moving some zombies in my turn.
I never told you how you must play. I said Most tables are simply not going to allow a Necromancer to dungeon crawl with 16 skeletons. In a tight hallway, those skeletons will get in everybody's way.
Obviously, if you are some DnD wunderdkind, your game isn't going to represent most.
Ah sure, so only your way of playing suits "most tables" but people who disagree with you, mind you multiples in just this thread already, aren't "most table" for some reason. Sorry to break it to you but you're being extremely hypocritical here right now.
I have been playing DND since the early 1980s. Obviously, in that time, I have seen a lot of tables and talked to a lot of players, both recently and in the past.
My experience tells me that players, with rare exception, will increasingly lose attention and are more likely to get annoyed as the time between their PCs’ actions increases.
.Simple ergonomics says that as the number of your minions increases, the amount of time required to complete your turn increases, given the attention to maintaining each minion is a constant.
If it takes a second to move a lead fig to it’s particularly place, then it certainly won’t take 7 seconds to move 10 lead figs each from its old location to it’s new and there’s only so much that a virtual tabletop can help.
My experience tells me that players, with rare exception, will increasingly lose attention and are more likely to get annoyed as the time between their PCs’ actions increases.
Simple ergonomics says that as the number of your minions increases, the amount of time required to complete your turn increases, given the attention to maintaining each minion is a constant.
Quantity of rolling is rarely a cause for a long delay in my experience; far more time is often wasted on off-topic nonsense, interruptions, a player being indecisive about what they want to do with their turn, someone misunderstanding the situation and needing it recapped to them etc. etc.
Actual rolling is rarely what takes the time, and quantity of minions shouldn't meaningfully affect it if done correctly, as the minions are usually acting in groups and you can roll in batches.
If it takes a second to move a lead fig to it’s particularly place, then it certainly won’t take 7 seconds to move 10 lead figs each from its old location to it’s new and there’s only so much that a virtual tabletop can help.
There's a lot to unpack on this sentence! Firstly, 5th edition isn't built around the use of figures anymore, the default method of play is "theatre of the mind", where the DM might use a battle map if they feel the need to, or to let players describe where they are going/aiming more accurately, but it doesn't need super accurate placement most of the time, and some people play entirely on descriptions alone (no maps at all unless the DM secretly uses one).
Second, where are you getting lead figurines from? Most miniatures companies I use stopped using lead decades ago, replaced it with various white metals, and stopped using those years ago now too as it became too expensive. Hero Forge does really expensive brass or not very good steel models, but I wouldn't buy either; these days it's basically plastic or resin for miniatures unless you're really keen to spend money on a very high end 3d "print" shop that can do high grade metal "prints".
Third, you don't need to move them all individually; until they start peeling off for individual actions you just need a placeholder for the group, often just one for the front of the group and one for the back will suffice if you can't be bothered moving them all. If the minions are a regular fixture and you really want them all visible then you can also group them up with movement aids (trays or joiners, so you have two joined as a pair, or four in a square etc. to make it easier to move some as blocks), if they do get split up then usually their ultimate goal is to rejoin the group and their short term goals aren't that distinct, so there's usually no reason they should be complicated to resolve.
If your main problem is that other players might get bored waiting for your minions to be resolved, then there's a dead simple fix for that; let them play some of the skeletons. You issue the command on your turn, then during the skeleton turn everybody gets to follow that command using the 3/4/whatever skeletons you assigned to them, keep track of the HP for those etc. Everybody's involved, everybody's playing and rolling; if the DM doesn't mind giving up AC scores they can tell everyone what they're looking to beat, otherwise you just need to know the order to resolve the batch rolls in (I usually just roll the dice and go left to right) so the DM can assign the rolls to targets quickly.
My experience tells me that players, with rare exception, will increasingly lose attention and are more likely to get annoyed as the time between their PCs’ actions increases.
Simple ergonomics says that as the number of your minions increases, the amount of time required to complete your turn increases, given the attention to maintaining each minion is a constant.
Quantity of rolling is rarely a cause for a long delay in my experience; far more time is often wasted on off-topic nonsense, interruptions, a player being indecisive about what they want to do with their turn, someone misunderstanding the situation and needing it recapped to them etc. etc.
Actual rolling is rarely what takes the time, and quantity of minions shouldn't meaningfully affect it if done correctly, as the minions are usually acting in groups and you can roll in batches.
If it takes a second to move a lead fig to it’s particularly place, then it certainly won’t take 7 seconds to move 10 lead figs each from its old location to it’s new and there’s only so much that a virtual tabletop can help.
There's a lot to unpack on this sentence! Firstly, 5th edition isn't built around the use of figures anymore, the default method of play is "theatre of the mind", where the DM might use a battle map if they feel the need to, or to let players describe where they are going/aiming more accurately, but it doesn't need super accurate placement most of the time, and some people play entirely on descriptions alone (no maps at all unless the DM secretly uses one).
Second, where are you getting lead figurines from? Most miniatures companies I use stopped using lead decades ago, replaced it with various white metals, and stopped using those years ago now too as it became too expensive. Hero Forge does really expensive brass or not very good steel models, but I wouldn't buy either; these days it's basically plastic or resin for miniatures unless you're really keen to spend money on a very high end 3d "print" shop that can do high grade metal "prints".
Third, you don't need to move them all individually; until they start peeling off for individual actions you just need a placeholder for the group, often just one for the front of the group and one for the back will suffice if you can't be bothered moving them all. If the minions are a regular fixture and you really want them all visible then you can also group them up with movement aids (trays or joiners, so you have two joined as a pair, or four in a square etc. to make it easier to move some as blocks), if they do get split up then usually their ultimate goal is to rejoin the group and their short term goals aren't that distinct, so there's usually no reason they should be complicated to resolve.
If your main problem is that other players might get bored waiting for your minions to be resolved, then there's a dead simple fix for that; let them play some of the skeletons. You issue the command on your turn, then during the skeleton turn they follow that command using the 3/4/whatever skeletons you assigned to them, keep track of the HP for those etc. Everybody's involved, everybody's playing and rolling; if the DM doesn't mind giving up AC scores they can tell them what they're looking to beat, otherwise you just need to know the order to resolve the batch rolls in (I usually just roll the dice and go left to right).
You have given me ideas to think about. Can you recommend a YouTube clip where I can listen to more?
Unless the player is role-playing each minion like a sociopath or the DM is neurotically monitoring each one, you should be good. Like others have said there are already rules in place that make this more manageable and if you're clever you can even make it painless. Take both the macro and the micro into perspective and it'll work out. Maybe play some StarCraft ;p
I will say this, though. Any player wanting to play a Necromancer at my table will be told that he is doing so on a trial basis. If a player at my table ends up taking longer to complete his action because he is managing a horde of undead, then he will be told that he will either have to reduce the number of undead he has or he can change his character without penalty..
Give you party members bone buddies to work with rather than taking 10 extra turns and with a high level necromancer you can make infinite magen and a homunculus with infinite health because your max hp doesn't go down. Add in an evil lair with guards and wards made with stone spells and it'll be too late when your party realizes they need to team up with the bbeg to kill you. The hordes await.
I will say this, though. Any player wanting to play a Necromancer at my table will be told that he is doing so on a trial basis. If a player at my table ends up taking longer to complete his action because he is managing a horde of undead, then he will be told that he will either have to reduce the number of undead he has or he can change his character without penalty..
A few other things you can try:
He controls one, you control the rest.
Default to Dodge and/or Help if actions take too long.
Allow each player to control one of the minions on their turn.
I'm a big fan of the idea of divvying out contol to the other players. It will usually help build table unity and hide the time consumed in management.
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You are welcome to your opinion. I find it selfish. I mean, you want to take game time to move all your skelies one way and the PCs another? There comes a point when you just cannot play any more skeletons without taking more time and more grief than any other PC at the table.
The game doesn't center on you. You are not the most important thing at the table. The group of players is.
As for having your skeletons, you can have six or so. That might not be too much of an issue if you are a really good player. But, a 20th level Necromancer can, by RAW, have a lot more than that. Long before you hit that max, you'll start taking up an undue amount of time. There is plenty that you can do to feel like a Necromancer besides Animate Dead. Soul Cage, Magic Jar, Sickening Radiance, Clone, all give you that feel.
Let me highlight what you missed.
"The biggest potential drawback is the time spent rolling for your minions -- but there are a myriad of ways to mitigate that. From the actual Mob rules in DMG to homebrew quicker rules (like roll attack and damage once, they all do that - etc) or using digital play for making macros to roll it all for you. And more besides these. I played conjuror before, high level, with 8 minions : my basic turns for moving and attacking with everything took 30 seconds - and most of that was "movement" - the rolls were automated in a macro and that was more complicated than a bunch of skellies since they all had diff stats. "
Lets highlight a bit more.
"The biggest potential drawback is the time spent rolling for your minions -- but there are a myriad of ways to mitigate that. From the actual Mob rules in DMG to homebrew quicker rules (like roll attack and damage once, they all do that - etc) or using digital play for making macros to roll it all for you. And more besides these. I played conjuror before, high level, with 8 minions : my basic turns for moving and attacking with everything took 30 seconds - and most of that was "movement" - the rolls were automated in a macro and that was more complicated than a bunch of skellies since they all had diff stats. "
And in case it still eluded you...
The biggest potential drawback is the time spent rolling for your minions -- but there are a myriad of ways to mitigate that. From the actual Mob rules in DMG to homebrew quicker rules (like roll attack and damage once, they all do that - etc) or using digital play for making macros to roll it all for you. And more besides these. I played conjuror before, high level, with 8 minions : my basic turns for moving and attacking with everything took 30 seconds - and most of that was "movement" - the rolls were automated in a macro and that was more complicated than a bunch of skellies since they all had diff stats.
--
Tip for you: read what you reply to.
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Let me quote yourself at this:
No idea what happens at your table that you're this dismissive over a non-issue, but it's not something I've ever encountered at mine. None of my friends have a problem with me moving some zombies in my turn.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Even limited to PHB races you've got dragonborn who are literal dragon humanoids, tieflings who are half devils, drow who are typically hostile to all surface dwellers and so-on, and even if you're playing the most vanilla party possible with only humans, regular elves, dwarfs, halflings and the like, they're still a party of adventurers; so they're going to be bristling with weapons of various forms, if they've just come from another encounter then they're probably soaked in gore, and either way they definitely look capable of hitting a town like an out of control freight train. For my recently completed Frostmaiden campaign we had a party of an aarakocra, a minotaur, a tiefling, a human (who spent most of his time in a half-bear hybrid transformation) and a half-elf assassin who alternated at random between attempting to seduce or threaten anyone she interacted with (often within the same conversation).
You've also already established that the figure is running away from the party no matter what, so any plan that doesn't involve surrounding the building is likely to fail to catch it, you've established that there's something wrong about the shape, so any plan that doesn't take precautions is likely to end badly if they're not friendly (which the signs you gave heavily hint the party should consider as a possibility) and even if you surround the building only with fully alive player characters, there's no guarantee the figure will run into the one that's best at calming someone down. If anything, if it were me I'd be less scared of a load of skeletons loosely surrounding the building, because I figure I'd stand a chance at getting past your average skeleton, but I'd be less confident about getting past your average potential murder hobo.
But this is all such a weird hypothetical because you only asked what someone would do with the skeletons; so I proposed surround the building to prevent escape, and send one in to sweep the front room in case of an ambush, traps etc. But if you want to look at how a D&D scenario is actually played, there'd be an entire party with their own ideas or tasks to perform in any plan. For example, if Lorne Hope (the selfless skelly sweeper) doesn't find anything I'd expect at least one party member to follow it in, if there's a Bard or other face in the party they might try calling out to the figure to see if it can be convinced we only want to know what happened to the town. Depending upon what spells I have prepared I might setup some other means of capture like web or snare, or stand ready with hypnotic pattern or whatever, or at the very least will be monitoring my undead to react to changes in the situation and to try and capture the figure, and so-on.
In terms of how games are actually run the DM should concern themselves foremost with the party's stated goals (prevent the strange figure from escaping the building, sweep the interior cautiously), the specifics only really matter in so far as they are plausible to that goal and determine what rolls you need to make (if any), and tell the story of how you achieved your goals (or failed spectacularly). In this case if the goal is keep the figure in the building, then surrounding it should be reasonable, while searching the front room with a sacrificial skelly should likewise be reasonable.
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I never told you how you must play. I said Most tables are simply not going to allow a Necromancer to dungeon crawl with 16 skeletons. In a tight hallway, those skeletons will get in everybody's way.
Obviously, if you are some DnD wunderdkind, your game isn't going to represent most.
Can you provide a citation for this statement? Where's the evidence for "most tables" not allowing this?
Because I'd wager most groups want to have fun together, and they're not looking for an excuse to get rid of a player; most campaigns also don't start at such a high level that the necromancer jumps straight to being able to raise and maintain sixteen minions (necromancers actually can't raise any at level 1, they have to wait until 5th-level, which is why I made my lower level dead raising spell so a player in a campaign could get started sooner).
With this in mind the way that the group handles one or more players having minions is going to evolve over time; just because you might be waiting for the chance to raise them as corpses, doesn't mean you need to ignore your group's wishes when it comes to deciding on your party's marching order, and over time the group will likely settle on their preferred default plan (e.g- four skeletons in front as a shield/to trigger traps, with twelve behind as backup/spares) and so that's what you'll do. If the dungeon has particularly tight corridors (5-feet wide rather than 10-feet) then you can adjust strategies; there isn't a single answer to every question, which is why the group decides collaboratively.
Also, skeletons being "in everybody's way" also means skeletons being in the enemy's way, it means them taking fire instead of your teammates, which is one of the benefits of having them (the skeletons, not the teammates); you seem determined to frame the necromancer as nothing but an impediment to everybody else's good time, but if your game has reached the point where they have sixteen minions then everybody should be well used to having one in the party. There are plenty of ways to speed up handling multiple minions; I've rarely experienced dice rolling or movement as a major delay in a game, far more often it's indecision or misunderstanding, which is nothing unique to a necromancer.
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Ah sure, so only your way of playing suits "most tables" but people who disagree with you, mind you multiples in just this thread already, aren't "most table" for some reason. Sorry to break it to you but you're being extremely hypocritical here right now.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
I have been playing DND since the early 1980s. Obviously, in that time, I have seen a lot of tables and talked to a lot of players, both recently and in the past.
My experience tells me that players, with rare exception, will increasingly lose attention and are more likely to get annoyed as the time between their PCs’ actions increases.
.Simple ergonomics says that as the number of your minions increases, the amount of time required to complete your turn increases, given the attention to maintaining each minion is a constant.
If it takes a second to move a lead fig to it’s particularly place, then it certainly won’t take 7 seconds to move 10 lead figs each from its old location to it’s new and there’s only so much that a virtual tabletop can help.
Quantity of rolling is rarely a cause for a long delay in my experience; far more time is often wasted on off-topic nonsense, interruptions, a player being indecisive about what they want to do with their turn, someone misunderstanding the situation and needing it recapped to them etc. etc.
Actual rolling is rarely what takes the time, and quantity of minions shouldn't meaningfully affect it if done correctly, as the minions are usually acting in groups and you can roll in batches.
There's a lot to unpack on this sentence! Firstly, 5th edition isn't built around the use of figures anymore, the default method of play is "theatre of the mind", where the DM might use a battle map if they feel the need to, or to let players describe where they are going/aiming more accurately, but it doesn't need super accurate placement most of the time, and some people play entirely on descriptions alone (no maps at all unless the DM secretly uses one).
Second, where are you getting lead figurines from? Most miniatures companies I use stopped using lead decades ago, replaced it with various white metals, and stopped using those years ago now too as it became too expensive. Hero Forge does really expensive brass or not very good steel models, but I wouldn't buy either; these days it's basically plastic or resin for miniatures unless you're really keen to spend money on a very high end 3d "print" shop that can do high grade metal "prints".
Third, you don't need to move them all individually; until they start peeling off for individual actions you just need a placeholder for the group, often just one for the front of the group and one for the back will suffice if you can't be bothered moving them all. If the minions are a regular fixture and you really want them all visible then you can also group them up with movement aids (trays or joiners, so you have two joined as a pair, or four in a square etc. to make it easier to move some as blocks), if they do get split up then usually their ultimate goal is to rejoin the group and their short term goals aren't that distinct, so there's usually no reason they should be complicated to resolve.
If your main problem is that other players might get bored waiting for your minions to be resolved, then there's a dead simple fix for that; let them play some of the skeletons. You issue the command on your turn, then during the skeleton turn everybody gets to follow that command using the 3/4/whatever skeletons you assigned to them, keep track of the HP for those etc. Everybody's involved, everybody's playing and rolling; if the DM doesn't mind giving up AC scores they can tell everyone what they're looking to beat, otherwise you just need to know the order to resolve the batch rolls in (I usually just roll the dice and go left to right) so the DM can assign the rolls to targets quickly.
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You have given me ideas to think about. Can you recommend a YouTube clip where I can listen to more?
Unless the player is role-playing each minion like a sociopath or the DM is neurotically monitoring each one, you should be good. Like others have said there are already rules in place that make this more manageable and if you're clever you can even make it painless. Take both the macro and the micro into perspective and it'll work out. Maybe play some StarCraft ;p
I will say this, though. Any player wanting to play a Necromancer at my table will be told that he is doing so on a trial basis. If a player at my table ends up taking longer to complete his action because he is managing a horde of undead, then he will be told that he will either have to reduce the number of undead he has or he can change his character without penalty..
Well yeah you can do on your table whatever you want obviously. You don't need our permission or approval anything lol
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Give you party members bone buddies to work with rather than taking 10 extra turns and with a high level necromancer you can make infinite magen and a homunculus with infinite health because your max hp doesn't go down. Add in an evil lair with guards and wards made with stone spells and it'll be too late when your party realizes they need to team up with the bbeg to kill you. The hordes await.
[roll]7d6[/roll]
Every post these dice roll increasing my chances of winning the yahtzee thread (I wish (wait not the twist the wish threa-!))
Drummer Generated Title
After having been invited to include both here, I now combine the "PM me CHEESE 🧀 and tomato into PM me "PIZZA🍕"
A few other things you can try:
I'm a big fan of the idea of divvying out contol to the other players. It will usually help build table unity and hide the time consumed in management.