Most tables are simply not going to allow a Necromancer to dungeon crawl with 16 skeletons. In a tight hallway, those skeletons will get in everybody's way.
Most tables are simply not going to allow a Necromancer to dungeon crawl with 16 skeletons. In a tight hallway, those skeletons will get in everybody's way.
Ya could just have the party go first, then. The skellies would come through after as backup.
Don't really see the issue here. Maintaining the easily beatable bunch of skeletons requires a considerable amount of resources being used up. A wizard with a bunch of skeletons is much less a threat than a wizard with a bunch of spells.
Most tables are simply not going to allow a Necromancer to dungeon crawl with 16 skeletons. In a tight hallway, those skeletons will get in everybody's way.
Ya could just have the party go first, then. The skellies would come through after as backup.
Don't really see the issue here. Maintaining the easily beatable bunch of skeletons requires a considerable amount of resources being used up. A wizard with a bunch of skeletons is much less a threat than a wizard with a bunch of spells.
You just need to be a reasonable player paired with a reasonable DM. Make sure you're being punctual with control and not complicating the game. Additionally your DM can negotiate with you and trade some minions out for swarms or more powerful undead to reduce numbers.
Rarely. If you find yourself moving backwards regularly then just change things up. Send in the zombies first. The party will appreciate them triggering traps and being nice targets for AoE spells too. Your initiative is much higher than the zombie's? Well ... I'm sure you can wait a turn since the enemy can't reach you anyway and then rush in once everyone is busy with the zombies lol
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I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Rarely. If you find yourself moving backwards regularly then just change things up. Send in the zombies first. The party will appreciate them triggering traps and being nice targets for AoE spells too. Your initiative is much higher than the zombie's? Well ... I'm sure you can wait a turn since the enemy can't reach you anyway and then rush in once everyone is busy with the zombies lol
Well, if you find yourself regularly backing up, you should turn around. The word I used was "sometimes," not "rarely" and not "regularly."
Yeah and "sometimes" is not really a good argument for anything. "Sometimes" it's too crowded for AoE spells or the enemies are too far apart as well so does that mean Fireball and Hypnotic Pattern are bad spells? Obviously not.
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I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Yeah and "sometimes" is not really a good argument for anything. "Sometimes" it's too crowded for AoE spells or the enemies are too far apart as well so does that mean Fireball and Hypnotic Pattern are bad spells? Obviously not.
Area of Effects are a bad comparison. A Wizard can choose not to cast Area of Effects when they will be a problem. Sixteen undead can't just disappear mid-dungeon when they aren't appropriate.
Honestly, that's just tells me you're either uncreative or unexperienced when it comes to these kinds of things. You don't have to move them around in one big crowd and especially not necessarily together with the party. You can send them ahead, you can leave them behind to secure your backs and you can even practically always position them in a way that you can still move through them as well unless it's a single 5ft wide path you have to squeeze through. The few times your zombies proof to be that kind of problem it's either because you screwed up or are so rare that they are definitely comparable with the few times AoE serves as decent comparison.
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I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
The real question for me is, if you've got sixteen zombies and a party of four player characters; why aren't you each being carried around by four zombies? 😂
The real question for me is, if you've got sixteen zombies and a party of four player characters; why aren't you each being carried around by four zombies? 😂
Asking the real questions. What's the point of having slaves that can't act against your will if you don't use them to be lazy. :D
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I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
You have come across a town that lies in ruins. Something attacked this town, something evil. The smell of rot lies over the streets like a thick blankeEt and the bodies you've found, indiscriminate in age or sex, lies still, a look of utter horror frozen on their faces. Their skin is mottled. Every once in a while, you hear the patter of feat and, if you are lucky, the flick of a shadow running into an alleyway. The shadow isn't really the profile of a humanoid, it's body is constructed strangely and you've not yet been able to figure it out. You are approaching the end of your adventuring day and the sun will soon set as you approach a storefront for an alchemist. You see a flicker running into the shop and this is the first time, all day, that you've seen the shadow close enough that you might be able to close with it.
The dimensions of the font room are 10 hexes by 15. hexes. Shadows hang heavily in this room as the sun is setting. You see no one in the front room, but there is a thick, repugnant goo making a squilching sound as your boots walk over it. The place smells of rotted cabbage.
How do you proceed? How do you place your skeletons? Do they enter first?
How do you proceed? How do you place your skeletons? Do they enter first?
All around the building with torches lighting it on fire while we lock the door and move to a safe distance? 😉
If I'm understanding you right the idea is that you've got a straight shot from the front door to the door into the next room, but there could be anything hidden behind the counter (well, anything that will fit). Well the whole point of undead minions is usually that they're expendable fodder, so the obvious thing to do is send a lone one in with a torch while someone observes from the door (or through a window) as it heads behind the counter to flush out any threats. Worst case you lose a skelly, but it sounds like there are plenty of bodies around from which to raise replacements.
While the skelly (Lorne Hope) is checking out the counter, could always send some skellies or other players round back to cover any other exits, that way if playing it safe is giving the enemy a chance to sneak out you should still have some warning.
Of course if I'm playing with my usual group the answer is "try to suggest this plan but then end up paralyzing the barbarian for trying to smash my skeletons to pieces using other skeletons as weapons, and shake my head in disgust as someone attempts to fashion a disguise out of a half-melted horror corpse of what was probably once several children".
How do you proceed? How do you place your skeletons? Do they enter first?
All around the building with torches lighting it on fire while we lock the door and move to a safe distance? 😉
If I'm understanding you right the idea is that you've got a straight shot from the front door to the door into the next room, but there could be anything hidden behind the counter (well, anything that will fit). Well the whole point of undead minions is usually that they're expendable fodder, so the obvious thing to do is send a lone one in with a torch while someone observes from the door (or through a window) as it heads behind the counter to flush out any threads. Worst case you lose a skelly, but it sounds like there are plenty of bodies around from which to raise replacements.
While the Lorne Hope is checking out the counter, could always send some skellies or other players round back to cover any other exits, that way if playing it safe is giving the enemy a chance to sneak out you should still have some warning.
Of course if I'm playing with my usual group the answer is "try to suggest this plan but then end up paralyzing the barbarian for trying to smash my skeletons to pieces using other skeletons as weapons, and shake my head in disgust as someone attempts to fashion a disguise out of a half-melted horror corpse of what was probably once several children".
Or, the shadow could be a survivor who could tell you what had happened. Your plan seems to have gotten the NPC killed.
Or, the shadow could be a survivor who could tell you what had happened. Your plan seems to have gotten the NPC killed.
Which plan? I presented three. 😝
Burn it to the ground wasn't really a serious one, the middle option is the one I'd employ without more information, though I'm the kind of player that usually fishes for more; for example, you say the shadow is "constructed strangely" which is a bit non-specific for what is actually quite a specific piece of information, i.e- what's so strange about that it's obviously not humanoid (too many limbs, too few etc.)?
However ultimately a dead NPC isn't usually a big concern for a necromancer, though I suppose if it's genuinely not humanoid it wasn't a eligible to become a future fragrant friend.
Or, the shadow could be a survivor who could tell you what had happened. Your plan seems to have gotten the NPC killed.
Which plan? I presented three. 😝
Burn it to the ground wasn't really a serious one, the middle option is the one I'd employ without more information, though I'm the kind of player that usually fishes for more; for example, you say the shadow is "constructed strangely" which is a bit non-specific for what is actually quite a specific piece of information, i.e- what's so strange about that it's obviously not humanoid (too many limbs, too few etc.)?
However ultimately a dead NPC isn't usually a big concern for a necromancer, though I suppose if it's genuinely not humanoid it wasn't a eligible to become a future fragrant friend.
Kee,ping in mind that most NPCs have never seen a zombie, let alone, faced one down in a tight space, it'd be difficult to predict what would happen as a result of their panic.
Kee,ping in mind that most NPCs have never seen a zombie, let alone, faced one down in a tight space, it'd be difficult to predict what would happen as a result of their panic.
Most likely they'd avoid leaving the building and find somewhere to hide inside it, so you've successfully contained them for the others to find. If you're suggesting that the NPC is so scared that they'd get themselves killed somehow, then they're just as likely to do-so when confronted with most player characters with or without a necromancer, considering half of them are kobolds, minotaurs, orcs, tieflings etc., and the other half are usually dripping with gore from their most recent encounter(s) so it won't matter if they're a high elf life cleric or whatever.
You seem to be suggesting that this scenario is only solvable using a mild-mannerred human Bard, despite zero attempt to set that up (in fact you do the opposite by specifically describing it as "[not] humanoid" and "constructed strangely"), and that's of precisely zero use if you don't have a Bard or whatever, or if the NPC gets out another exit before they can approach it, etc. etc.
Or you have the Bard, and the NPC turns out to be the killer that slaughtered the town and does the same to said Bard before the rest of the party can stop them because you didn't take the sensible cautious approach. Or the NPC could be a fellow necromancer for whom an experiment got out of hand, and they'll be reassured by the presence of a fellow practitioner who might be able to help stop whatever was unleashed.
I'm not sure what the point of the exercise here is unless your goal is purely to only to say:
DM: "How would you be a necromancer in scenario A." Player: "I do X." DM: "Haha idiot! The correct answer is don't be a necromancer. GTFO and feel bad for agreeing to play in my campaign."
If so, then that's an excellent example of a terrible DM who wants to lose their players by punishing one for choosing a particular sub-class, but in that case the sub-class and player are blameless so I fail to see the point?
I don't know what happens at your table and can't speak for it, (just as I'd appreciate it if you don't speak for what happens at the tables I've played at), but the only PCs that have everr been at a 5e game alongside my PC have been of a PHB race, with one exception - a goliath in an Iceland Dale campaign.
And they can just order the skeletons to move back or forward as needed. And they're considered allies so you can move through their spaces - it just counts as difficult terrain, but dashing is a thing and as you move one way the skellies move the other, so all works out fine. And the more sensible option could be have some skellies in front to trigger traps or as a buffer in case of enemies, and have some behind so you have protection at the rear too.
Reading your posts you seem to be doing the whole "I don't like this, so I'm going to invent scenarios to prove my point". And, not even doing a very good job at that either.
A horde of undead is the biggest reason why many choose to play Necromancer. The biggest potential drawback is the time spent rolling for your minions -- but there are a myriad of ways to mitigate that. From the actual Mob rules in DMG to homebrew quicker rules (like roll attack and damage once, they all do that - etc) or using digital play for making macros to roll it all for you. And more besides these. I played conjuror before, high level, with 8 minions : my basic turns for moving and attacking with everything took 30 seconds - and most of that was "movement" - the rolls were automated in a macro and that was more complicated than a bunch of skellies since they all had diff stats.
You haven't actually presented any solid reason why any DM would ban Necromancers having their minions. It's not like the DM can't just use Forbiddance or have the enemy include a Cleric. Skellies and zombies are a very low level threat - easily countered by any DM. A wizard with all their spell slots is far more of a threat than a wizard that has used up most of their slots maintaining weak little skellies. The necro is deliberately nerfing their magic for the thematics and niche numbers-advantage of an undead horde. It's very sub-optimal play, for the fun.
If a DM cannot handle the party with their skellies, they be a shitty DM.
Most tables are simply not going to allow a Necromancer to dungeon crawl with 16 skeletons. In a tight hallway, those skeletons will get in everybody's way.
Ya could just have the party go first, then. The skellies would come through after as backup.
Don't really see the issue here. Maintaining the easily beatable bunch of skeletons requires a considerable amount of resources being used up. A wizard with a bunch of skeletons is much less a threat than a wizard with a bunch of spells.
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You just need to be a reasonable player paired with a reasonable DM. Make sure you're being punctual with control and not complicating the game. Additionally your DM can negotiate with you and trade some minions out for swarms or more powerful undead to reduce numbers.
Sometimes the party has to move backwards.
Rarely. If you find yourself moving backwards regularly then just change things up. Send in the zombies first. The party will appreciate them triggering traps and being nice targets for AoE spells too. Your initiative is much higher than the zombie's? Well ... I'm sure you can wait a turn since the enemy can't reach you anyway and then rush in once everyone is busy with the zombies lol
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Well, if you find yourself regularly backing up, you should turn around. The word I used was "sometimes," not "rarely" and not "regularly."
Yeah and "sometimes" is not really a good argument for anything. "Sometimes" it's too crowded for AoE spells or the enemies are too far apart as well so does that mean Fireball and Hypnotic Pattern are bad spells? Obviously not.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Area of Effects are a bad comparison. A Wizard can choose not to cast Area of Effects when they will be a problem. Sixteen undead can't just disappear mid-dungeon when they aren't appropriate.
Honestly, that's just tells me you're either uncreative or unexperienced when it comes to these kinds of things. You don't have to move them around in one big crowd and especially not necessarily together with the party. You can send them ahead, you can leave them behind to secure your backs and you can even practically always position them in a way that you can still move through them as well unless it's a single 5ft wide path you have to squeeze through. The few times your zombies proof to be that kind of problem it's either because you screwed up or are so rare that they are definitely comparable with the few times AoE serves as decent comparison.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
The real question for me is, if you've got sixteen zombies and a party of four player characters; why aren't you each being carried around by four zombies? 😂
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Asking the real questions. What's the point of having slaves that can't act against your will if you don't use them to be lazy. :D
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
You have come across a town that lies in ruins. Something attacked this town, something evil. The smell of rot lies over the streets like a thick blankeEt and the bodies you've found, indiscriminate in age or sex, lies still, a look of utter horror frozen on their faces. Their skin is mottled. Every once in a while, you hear the patter of feat and, if you are lucky, the flick of a shadow running into an alleyway. The shadow isn't really the profile of a humanoid, it's body is constructed strangely and you've not yet been able to figure it out. You are approaching the end of your adventuring day and the sun will soon set as you approach a storefront for an alchemist. You see a flicker running into the shop and this is the first time, all day, that you've seen the shadow close enough that you might be able to close with it.
If I did this correctly, you should be able to see a (poorly drawn) sketch of a store. https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1oydv6xas8j49bctU8ppDQYWssyvpGmpLtdL2Kdqca9k/edit?usp=sharing The front door (at top) is one hex. The store counter is high enough for people to hide behind or get cover behind. The door to the backroom is 5ft wide and closed.
The dimensions of the font room are 10 hexes by 15. hexes. Shadows hang heavily in this room as the sun is setting. You see no one in the front room, but there is a thick, repugnant goo making a squilching sound as your boots walk over it. The place smells of rotted cabbage.
How do you proceed? How do you place your skeletons? Do they enter first?
All around the building with torches lighting it on fire while we lock the door and move to a safe distance? 😉
If I'm understanding you right the idea is that you've got a straight shot from the front door to the door into the next room, but there could be anything hidden behind the counter (well, anything that will fit). Well the whole point of undead minions is usually that they're expendable fodder, so the obvious thing to do is send a lone one in with a torch while someone observes from the door (or through a window) as it heads behind the counter to flush out any threats. Worst case you lose a skelly, but it sounds like there are plenty of bodies around from which to raise replacements.
While the skelly (Lorne Hope) is checking out the counter, could always send some skellies or other players round back to cover any other exits, that way if playing it safe is giving the enemy a chance to sneak out you should still have some warning.
Of course if I'm playing with my usual group the answer is "try to suggest this plan but then end up paralyzing the barbarian for trying to smash my skeletons to pieces using other skeletons as weapons, and shake my head in disgust as someone attempts to fashion a disguise out of a half-melted horror corpse of what was probably once several children".
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Or, the shadow could be a survivor who could tell you what had happened. Your plan seems to have gotten the NPC killed.
Which plan? I presented three. 😝
Burn it to the ground wasn't really a serious one, the middle option is the one I'd employ without more information, though I'm the kind of player that usually fishes for more; for example, you say the shadow is "constructed strangely" which is a bit non-specific for what is actually quite a specific piece of information, i.e- what's so strange about that it's obviously not humanoid (too many limbs, too few etc.)?
However ultimately a dead NPC isn't usually a big concern for a necromancer, though I suppose if it's genuinely not humanoid it wasn't a eligible to become a future fragrant friend.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Kee,ping in mind that most NPCs have never seen a zombie, let alone, faced one down in a tight space, it'd be difficult to predict what would happen as a result of their panic.
I mean you can say the same about any PC playing a more monstrous race. I don't see the problem here. Things like that make the game interesting imo.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Most likely they'd avoid leaving the building and find somewhere to hide inside it, so you've successfully contained them for the others to find. If you're suggesting that the NPC is so scared that they'd get themselves killed somehow, then they're just as likely to do-so when confronted with most player characters with or without a necromancer, considering half of them are kobolds, minotaurs, orcs, tieflings etc., and the other half are usually dripping with gore from their most recent encounter(s) so it won't matter if they're a high elf life cleric or whatever.
You seem to be suggesting that this scenario is only solvable using a mild-mannerred human Bard, despite zero attempt to set that up (in fact you do the opposite by specifically describing it as "[not] humanoid" and "constructed strangely"), and that's of precisely zero use if you don't have a Bard or whatever, or if the NPC gets out another exit before they can approach it, etc. etc.
Or you have the Bard, and the NPC turns out to be the killer that slaughtered the town and does the same to said Bard before the rest of the party can stop them because you didn't take the sensible cautious approach. Or the NPC could be a fellow necromancer for whom an experiment got out of hand, and they'll be reassured by the presence of a fellow practitioner who might be able to help stop whatever was unleashed.
I'm not sure what the point of the exercise here is unless your goal is purely to only to say:
DM: "How would you be a necromancer in scenario A."
Player: "I do X."
DM: "Haha idiot! The correct answer is don't be a necromancer. GTFO and feel bad for agreeing to play in my campaign."
If so, then that's an excellent example of a terrible DM who wants to lose their players by punishing one for choosing a particular sub-class, but in that case the sub-class and player are blameless so I fail to see the point?
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
I don't know what happens at your table and can't speak for it, (just as I'd appreciate it if you don't speak for what happens at the tables I've played at), but the only PCs that have everr been at a 5e game alongside my PC have been of a PHB race, with one exception - a goliath in an Iceland Dale campaign.
And they can just order the skeletons to move back or forward as needed. And they're considered allies so you can move through their spaces - it just counts as difficult terrain, but dashing is a thing and as you move one way the skellies move the other, so all works out fine. And the more sensible option could be have some skellies in front to trigger traps or as a buffer in case of enemies, and have some behind so you have protection at the rear too.
Reading your posts you seem to be doing the whole "I don't like this, so I'm going to invent scenarios to prove my point". And, not even doing a very good job at that either.
A horde of undead is the biggest reason why many choose to play Necromancer. The biggest potential drawback is the time spent rolling for your minions -- but there are a myriad of ways to mitigate that. From the actual Mob rules in DMG to homebrew quicker rules (like roll attack and damage once, they all do that - etc) or using digital play for making macros to roll it all for you. And more besides these. I played conjuror before, high level, with 8 minions : my basic turns for moving and attacking with everything took 30 seconds - and most of that was "movement" - the rolls were automated in a macro and that was more complicated than a bunch of skellies since they all had diff stats.
You haven't actually presented any solid reason why any DM would ban Necromancers having their minions. It's not like the DM can't just use Forbiddance or have the enemy include a Cleric. Skellies and zombies are a very low level threat - easily countered by any DM. A wizard with all their spell slots is far more of a threat than a wizard that has used up most of their slots maintaining weak little skellies. The necro is deliberately nerfing their magic for the thematics and niche numbers-advantage of an undead horde. It's very sub-optimal play, for the fun.
If a DM cannot handle the party with their skellies, they be a shitty DM.
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
See My Youtube Videos for Tips & Tricks using D&D Beyond