People are trying to say "HUR DUR IMA JUST GRAB THE MCGUFFIN LAWL!, or "IMA GRAB YOUR WEAPON AND RUN!" first of all, unless you dash which you CANT because you used your action for that spell, and a 2nd level spellslot. literally all the BBEG has to do is hit you with literally anything that makes your consave 15+ which if you're facing the BBEG and have no way to properly avoid a hit or even if your DM is ruthless and has the BBEG use a lair action to violently shake the dimention or whatever you now wasted a 2nd level slot, you now are in MELEE range as an arcane trickster or mage.
Even in the top tier scenerio, If you're an arcane trickster rouge, with ritual casting, and willing to use a 2nd level spellslot, facing the BBEG outside of a lair or the final area. You still need to go 1 hour, in a chase scene with the BBEG chasing you down to break con. Assuming he doesn't go "oh my mcguffin is gone, hey army obliterate them since without them my plans are moot I'm perfectly fine with throwing every last unit at the players all in one encounter.
So now your party is in a possibly ARMY vs 4-8 scenerio. That's a TPK. "but my DM wouldn't do that" then your DM literally LET it be op, he made no consequence for an abusive action, congrats.
even if you steal stuff that way from shops or whatever, eventually with enough inventory shop keepers will be like "whenever this particular patron is around my inventroy is less, i have NO CLUE what he's doing, but he's banned. now you're locked out of shopping, sure you COULD stealth back in, but the more risks you start to take the more of a danger you are to the party.
and even the ticking bomb, "so he placed a bomb that weighs 2 tons, and will level the town", even with enlarge/reduce+graviturgy spells (which is already burning different level spellslots and MULTIPLE of them. you can't argue the issue is wristpocket, what's to stop you from just using magic circle and yeeting it away, you'd still burn bare minumum 2 slots, even if higher level you're literally saying "if a spell can be combo'd and reduce your resources, the lowest level is the problem."
I'm not saying it SHOULD be a cantrip, but getting stuck on the "cantrips don't have that utility and blah blah blah" is kinda dumb.
A much better argument would be this.
It shouldn't be a cantrip because it's too generalized. Other cantrips and even ones with a lot of creative uses, come with a lot of caveats, an example is with Minor illusion. it can only be a sound or an image, the image can only be a 5 sq foot by 5 sq foot image it cannot be moved unless a specific class of wizard is taken. mostly any class or even random dumb mob can figure out it's an illusion, it must be cast in range within (30 feet) and as soon as it's decerned to be an illusion that information can be spread quickly and for free.
Meanwhile with the current limitations of wrist pocket. It can be used in multiple abusive ways. It can be used to be a quick release trap by dropping 5 pounds of loose ball berings or caltrops into the space, It can also be used as a quick way to grab a non mcguffin object with zero party interaction, assume a lady needs a dragons eggshell to use in a medicine for her sick child. Sure it's not the BBEG and can't fully derail the campagin. Yet by using wristpocket+stealth you've removed any need for the party thus making it a 1 person session. This directly effects player agency.
Using my OWN argument of "just have the dragon hit him or use a lair action" the removal of other player agency still applies in other situations. Assuming a player has an annoying habit to you, that the party isn't the least bit bothered by, you could bully that player by just putting it in the space, flying on a mount above a ravine, and dropping concentration. best case scenerio the DM calls you on your abuse and removes the spell from your list, or ejects you from the game.
It's not problematic due to the extra dimentional space, but because of how un-restricted the spell is.
All you need to do to make it a viable cantrip is this.
cantrip level conjuration (ritual) (dunamancy)
Casting Time: 1 action Range: Self Components: S, V, A rose bud, and a gem valued at x gold. Duration: 24 hours.
You flick your wrist, causing one object you've held longer than 10 minutes. The object, which only you can be holding and can weigh no more than 5 pounds, is transported to an extradimensional space, where it remains for the duration.
Until the spell ends, you can use your action to summon the object to your free hand, and you can use your action to return the object to the extradimensional space. An object still in the pocket plane when the spell ends is lost in that plane forever.
This doesn't ruin the utility of the spell. You can still actually do stuff like talk with a shop owner while discussing other objects, and looking at their wares, while also going over other things you may be interested in, and if you can drag that conversation for an hour of in game time you can go ahead and steal it if you can manage to either pass a stealth or slight of hand check. but 10 minutes in a fight is far too long for you to be able to hold onto an opponents weapon and make it vanish. playing hide-n-seek from a dragon for 10 minutes is a pretty tough challenge.
and it stops the abuse of other players by giving them 10 minutes to get their object back or apply party/dm pressure to make sure that you can't abuse them.
the space isn't the problem, the problem is lack of restrictions.
This doesn't ruin the utility of the spell. You can still actually do stuff like talk with a shop owner while discussing other objects, and looking at their wares, while also going over other things you may be interested in, and if you can drag that conversation for an hour of in game time you can go ahead and steal it if you can manage to either pass a stealth or slight of hand check. but 10 minutes in a fight is far too long for you to be able to hold onto an opponents weapon and make it vanish. playing hide-n-seek from a dragon for 10 minutes is a pretty tough challenge.
and it stops the abuse of other players by giving them 10 minutes to get their object back or apply party/dm pressure to make sure that you can't abuse them.
the space isn't the problem, the problem is lack of restrictions.
I like your idea of making it a cantrip but what you’ve got is still too powerful. Make the duration 10 minute and keep it concentration. It basically becomes a bad substitute for sleight of hand and doesn’t overshadow the skill. Would still allow smuggling small items.
If you’ve already got slight of hand and your DM allows you to use a skill roll instead of a class ability (subtle spell), why bother with wrist pocket? You’ve already got slight of hand.
The whole using a skill to replace a class ability is something that creates a really slippery slope. Two big issues.
First Action economy: allowing a character to use a skill (action) and cast a spell (action) breaks the action economy of the game. They just performed two full actions in one round.
This could be overcome in a couple of ways.
If the character had 2 levels of fighter and was using action surge.
If there were two characters working together with one casting and the other acting as a distraction, basically the help action.
Second, lets ignore the action economy issue for a moment. It devalues an entire classes ability (subtle spell). If a character can skill check in place of subtle spell, then why can’t they do so in the midst of combat? Since there would already be a president. Whichever way the caster would want to go: ‘Hey you can’t counter spell me, I’m talking: CHA skill check (intimidation, persuasion, deception) OR waving my arms about (DEX check: sleight of hand) – skill would vary by spell and/or character.
1. "Get rid of a bomb ..." What? Where did you get a 5 # or less bomb in a fantasy world? And who actually picks up a bomb and wrist flicks it instead of running away? Low tech bombs are generally heavy (stuff like mortar shells and barrels of gunpowder) if they're powerful. 2. "Transport a block of ice." Exactly why doesn't it melt? Either time moves on in the space and the block melts OR the bomb cannot be disposed of cause it comes out ticking at the same second it was on when it went in. 3. "Combine with a few other abilities to secretly move a body, ..." What, you're killing 5 poundsor less light weight folks or do you have a spare wizard who can cast and concentrate on a Reduce spell for the full time AND do so across dimensional barriers? It just isn't useful for heavy stuff cause you cannot keep the heavy stuff light (Reduce is also Concentration). 4. How do you hold an immovable rod and then "flick your wrist"? The bloody rod won't move while you hold it so wrist flicking seems sort of out for any immovable object that you hold. 5. Yay! This one actually works! 6. Alas, no. You just are NOT going to have enough 2nd level spells to be "the best...ever".
As to perfect thievery, it isn't undetectable. Detect magic will show your wrist as magical and if this spell exists, then others have used it, the guards know about it, and they lock your naked self up for an hour until the loot returns. Assuming they're nice and don't just punch you in the nose until your concentration breakes.
I'm not trying to say the spell is worthless, but it sure as Hades isn't a rope trick equivalent, extra-dimensional space creating or not.
It makes sense that it is a level 2 spell, because most level 2 spells aren't super powerful, most are just useful utility spells.
Dude , Invisibility is a second level spell. Invisibility .
If there is a primary limiting factor in wrist pocket it should be size, length, magical items, etc ... not concentration which is a very limiting factor. Perhaps exclude powerful magic items (anything beyond uncommon etc ... ) Also wristpocket is still subject to dispel magic and counterspell. It isn't overpowered without the concentration requirement but it is functionally useful again. Currently it is not going to make for surprises from the PCs which further the plot.
1. "Get rid of a bomb ..." What? Where did you get a 5 # or less bomb in a fantasy world? And who actually picks up a bomb and wrist flicks it instead of running away? Low tech bombs are generally heavy (stuff like mortar shells and barrels of gunpowder) if they're powerful. 2. "Transport a block of ice." Exactly why doesn't it melt? 3. "Combine with a few other abilities to secretly move a body, ..." What, you're killing 5 poundsor less light weight folks or do you have a spare wizard who can cast and concentrate on a Reduce spell for the full time AND do so across dimensional barriers? It just isn't useful for heavy stuff cause you cannot keep the heavy stuff light (Reduce is also Concentration).
2. ice melts from heat flow not time progression alone. It is in an isolated pocket dimension, where would the heat come from?
3. A six foot tall average person occupies 11.25 feet cubed ( 6x1.5x1.25 ). A Handy Haversack holds a total of 12 cubic feet and weighs 5 lbs. Work out the details in your own sick imagination.
1. "Get rid of a bomb ..." What? Where did you get a 5 # or less bomb in a fantasy world? And who actually picks up a bomb and wrist flicks it instead of running away? Low tech bombs are generally heavy (stuff like mortar shells and barrels of gunpowder) if they're powerful. 2. "Transport a block of ice." Exactly why doesn't it melt? 3. "Combine with a few other abilities to secretly move a body, ..." What, you're killing 5 poundsor less light weight folks or do you have a spare wizard who can cast and concentrate on a Reduce spell for the full time AND do so across dimensional barriers? It just isn't useful for heavy stuff cause you cannot keep the heavy stuff light (Reduce is also Concentration).
2. ice melts from heat flow not time progression alone. It is in an isolated pocket dimension, where would the heat come from?
3. A six foot tall average person occupies 11.25 feet cubed ( 6x1.5x1.25 ). A Handy Haversack holds a total of 12 cubic feet and weighs 5 lbs. Work out the details in your own sick imagination.
2. the extradimensional aspect of the spell is so undefined that you can assume it's the ambient temperature as the surrounding, very hot or very cold. Now time stopping, based on other spells and effects, isn't called out and the assumption would be that time continues as normal.
3. If you've already got a Handy Haversack and the time to fold/press/mutilate a body in. They why do you need wristpocket? Wrist pocket being an extradimensional space used on a Handy Haversack would rip a whole to the Astral Plane. If that's what you're going for sure. But seems like a complete waste of both the spell and the item.
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People are trying to say "HUR DUR IMA JUST GRAB THE MCGUFFIN LAWL!, or "IMA GRAB YOUR WEAPON AND RUN!" first of all, unless you dash which you CANT because you used your action for that spell, and a 2nd level spellslot. literally all the BBEG has to do is hit you with literally anything that makes your consave 15+ which if you're facing the BBEG and have no way to properly avoid a hit or even if your DM is ruthless and has the BBEG use a lair action to violently shake the dimention or whatever you now wasted a 2nd level slot, you now are in MELEE range as an arcane trickster or mage.
Even in the top tier scenerio, If you're an arcane trickster rouge, with ritual casting, and willing to use a 2nd level spellslot, facing the BBEG outside of a lair or the final area. You still need to go 1 hour, in a chase scene with the BBEG chasing you down to break con. Assuming he doesn't go "oh my mcguffin is gone, hey army obliterate them since without them my plans are moot I'm perfectly fine with throwing every last unit at the players all in one encounter.
So now your party is in a possibly ARMY vs 4-8 scenerio. That's a TPK. "but my DM wouldn't do that" then your DM literally LET it be op, he made no consequence for an abusive action, congrats.
even if you steal stuff that way from shops or whatever, eventually with enough inventory shop keepers will be like "whenever this particular patron is around my inventroy is less, i have NO CLUE what he's doing, but he's banned. now you're locked out of shopping, sure you COULD stealth back in, but the more risks you start to take the more of a danger you are to the party.
and even the ticking bomb, "so he placed a bomb that weighs 2 tons, and will level the town", even with enlarge/reduce+graviturgy spells (which is already burning different level spellslots and MULTIPLE of them. you can't argue the issue is wristpocket, what's to stop you from just using magic circle and yeeting it away, you'd still burn bare minumum 2 slots, even if higher level you're literally saying "if a spell can be combo'd and reduce your resources, the lowest level is the problem."
I'm not saying it SHOULD be a cantrip, but getting stuck on the "cantrips don't have that utility and blah blah blah" is kinda dumb.
A much better argument would be this.
It shouldn't be a cantrip because it's too generalized. Other cantrips and even ones with a lot of creative uses, come with a lot of caveats, an example is with Minor illusion. it can only be a sound or an image, the image can only be a 5 sq foot by 5 sq foot image it cannot be moved unless a specific class of wizard is taken. mostly any class or even random dumb mob can figure out it's an illusion, it must be cast in range within (30 feet) and as soon as it's decerned to be an illusion that information can be spread quickly and for free.
Meanwhile with the current limitations of wrist pocket. It can be used in multiple abusive ways. It can be used to be a quick release trap by dropping 5 pounds of loose ball berings or caltrops into the space, It can also be used as a quick way to grab a non mcguffin object with zero party interaction, assume a lady needs a dragons eggshell to use in a medicine for her sick child. Sure it's not the BBEG and can't fully derail the campagin. Yet by using wristpocket+stealth you've removed any need for the party thus making it a 1 person session. This directly effects player agency.
Using my OWN argument of "just have the dragon hit him or use a lair action" the removal of other player agency still applies in other situations. Assuming a player has an annoying habit to you, that the party isn't the least bit bothered by, you could bully that player by just putting it in the space, flying on a mount above a ravine, and dropping concentration. best case scenerio the DM calls you on your abuse and removes the spell from your list, or ejects you from the game.
It's not problematic due to the extra dimentional space, but because of how un-restricted the spell is.
All you need to do to make it a viable cantrip is this.
cantrip level conjuration (ritual) (dunamancy)
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: S, V, A rose bud, and a gem valued at x gold.
Duration: 24 hours.
You flick your wrist, causing one object you've held longer than 10 minutes. The object, which only you can be holding and can weigh no more than 5 pounds, is transported to an extradimensional space, where it remains for the duration.
Until the spell ends, you can use your action to summon the object to your free hand, and you can use your action to return the object to the extradimensional space. An object still in the pocket plane when the spell ends is lost in that plane forever.
This doesn't ruin the utility of the spell. You can still actually do stuff like talk with a shop owner while discussing other objects, and looking at their wares, while also going over other things you may be interested in, and if you can drag that conversation for an hour of in game time you can go ahead and steal it if you can manage to either pass a stealth or slight of hand check. but 10 minutes in a fight is far too long for you to be able to hold onto an opponents weapon and make it vanish. playing hide-n-seek from a dragon for 10 minutes is a pretty tough challenge.
and it stops the abuse of other players by giving them 10 minutes to get their object back or apply party/dm pressure to make sure that you can't abuse them.
the space isn't the problem, the problem is lack of restrictions.
I like your idea of making it a cantrip but what you’ve got is still too powerful. Make the duration 10 minute and keep it concentration. It basically becomes a bad substitute for sleight of hand and doesn’t overshadow the skill. Would still allow smuggling small items.
If you’ve already got slight of hand and your DM allows you to use a skill roll instead of a class ability (subtle spell), why bother with wrist pocket? You’ve already got slight of hand.
The whole using a skill to replace a class ability is something that creates a really slippery slope. Two big issues.
First Action economy: allowing a character to use a skill (action) and cast a spell (action) breaks the action economy of the game. They just performed two full actions in one round.
This could be overcome in a couple of ways.
If the character had 2 levels of fighter and was using action surge.
If there were two characters working together with one casting and the other acting as a distraction, basically the help action.
Second, lets ignore the action economy issue for a moment. It devalues an entire classes ability (subtle spell). If a character can skill check in place of subtle spell, then why can’t they do so in the midst of combat? Since there would already be a president. Whichever way the caster would want to go: ‘Hey you can’t counter spell me, I’m talking: CHA skill check (intimidation, persuasion, deception) OR waving my arms about (DEX check: sleight of hand) – skill would vary by spell and/or character.
Okay, so it's occassionally useful, however -
1. "Get rid of a bomb ..." What? Where did you get a 5 # or less bomb in a fantasy world? And who actually picks up a bomb and wrist flicks it instead of running away? Low tech bombs are generally heavy (stuff like mortar shells and barrels of gunpowder) if they're powerful.
2. "Transport a block of ice." Exactly why doesn't it melt? Either time moves on in the space and the block melts OR the bomb cannot be disposed of cause it comes out ticking at the same second it was on when it went in.
3. "Combine with a few other abilities to secretly move a body, ..." What, you're killing 5 poundsor less light weight folks or do you have a spare wizard who can cast and concentrate on a Reduce spell for the full time AND do so across dimensional barriers? It just isn't useful for heavy stuff cause you cannot keep the heavy stuff light (Reduce is also Concentration).
4. How do you hold an immovable rod and then "flick your wrist"? The bloody rod won't move while you hold it so wrist flicking seems sort of out for any immovable object that you hold.
5. Yay! This one actually works!
6. Alas, no. You just are NOT going to have enough 2nd level spells to be "the best...ever".
As to perfect thievery, it isn't undetectable. Detect magic will show your wrist as magical and if this spell exists, then others have used it, the guards know about it, and they lock your naked self up for an hour until the loot returns. Assuming they're nice and don't just punch you in the nose until your concentration breakes.
I'm not trying to say the spell is worthless, but it sure as Hades isn't a rope trick equivalent, extra-dimensional space creating or not.
Dude , Invisibility is a second level spell. Invisibility .
If there is a primary limiting factor in wrist pocket it should be size, length, magical items, etc ... not concentration which is a very limiting factor. Perhaps exclude powerful magic items (anything beyond uncommon etc ... ) Also wristpocket is still subject to dispel magic and counterspell. It isn't overpowered without the concentration requirement but it is functionally useful again. Currently it is not going to make for surprises from the PCs which further the plot.
2. ice melts from heat flow not time progression alone. It is in an isolated pocket dimension, where would the heat come from?
3. A six foot tall average person occupies 11.25 feet cubed ( 6x1.5x1.25 ). A Handy Haversack holds a total of 12 cubic feet and weighs 5 lbs. Work out the details in your own sick imagination.
2. the extradimensional aspect of the spell is so undefined that you can assume it's the ambient temperature as the surrounding, very hot or very cold. Now time stopping, based on other spells and effects, isn't called out and the assumption would be that time continues as normal.
3. If you've already got a Handy Haversack and the time to fold/press/mutilate a body in. They why do you need wristpocket? Wrist pocket being an extradimensional space used on a Handy Haversack would rip a whole to the Astral Plane. If that's what you're going for sure. But seems like a complete waste of both the spell and the item.