Clerics get their magic from their god; divine magic, therefore healing.
Druids use nature based magic to heal.
A paladin can use divine magic to heal.
Bards dabble in arcane, divine, and natural magic. Thus, they can heal.
A divine soul sorcerer has a direct link to divine magic; hence the name. And the divine magic and healing that comes with it
A warlock gets their magic from a patron. If they happened to make a pact with a celestial, then that patron would give them divine magic by default. So, healing.
A wizard studies, and can learn arcane magic.
Under the (I think fair) assumption that divine magic *must* be coming from a divine being, and that natural magic *must* come about from a strong connection to nature; neither divine or nature-based magic can be studied.
Therefore, a wizard by definition, one who learns through study, shouldn't be able to learn healing magic. I don't necessarily think they're op in any respect, but I understand where you're coming from. But that's my interpretation of the matter, and it might've been said already but there it is.
Bard magic is arcane, so it's perfectly possible to heal without divine magic. Also, druid/ranger magic is divine, not a separate category. Warlock magic is arcane regardless of patron.
I always interpreted it pretty close to VanZoeren's way. Bards use bardic magic, clerics and paladins use divine magic, druids and rangers use druidic magic, sorcerers and wizards use arcane magic, and warlocks use someone else's magic. Some clerics use a mix of divine and druidic magic (Nature Domain) and some sorcerers use a mix of divine and arcane magic (Divine Soul).
I guess it's just open to an unusually wide range of interpretations.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
I always interpreted it pretty close to VanZoeren's way. Bards use bardic magic, clerics and paladins use divine magic, druids and rangers use druidic magic, sorcerers and wizards use arcane magic, and warlocks use someone else's magic. Some clerics use a mix of divine and druidic magic (Nature Domain) and some sorcerers use a mix of divine and arcane magic (Divine Soul).
I guess it's just open to an unusually wide range of interpretations.
The Player's Handbook talks about this in Chapter 10 ("Spellcasting").
All magic depends on the Weave, though different kinds of magic access it in a variety of ways. The spells of wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, and bards are commonly called arcane magic. These spells rely on an understanding—learned or intuitive—of the workings of the Weave. The caster plucks directly at the strands of the Weave to create the desired effect. Eldritch knights and arcane tricksters also use arcane magic. The spells of clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers are called divine magic. These spellcasters’ access to the Weave is mediated by divine power—gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin’s oath.
The difference basically comes down to whether you're manipulating the Weave yourself or a "divine power" is doing it for you.
My interpretation of that is that spells are just spells and producing one is just a matter of manipulating the Weave the right way. But the way a bard plucks at the Weave isn't necessarily the way wizards do it, so there's differences in what spells they've each figured out how to produce. Manipulating the Weave in the patterns that produce spells exclusive to divine casters either isn't common knowledge, hasn't been figured out, or isn't possible using the techniques bards and wizards use.
Therefore, a wizard by definition, one who learns through study, shouldn't be able to learn healing magic. I don't necessarily think they're op in any respect, but I understand where you're coming from. But that's my interpretation of the matter, and it might've been said already but there it is.
Since magic is made up in the first place, there is no greater reason for "you can't study healing magic" to be true than for "you can study healing magic" to be true.
You are basically just explaining how things currently are, and are claiming it as a reason why they should be as they are.
I wish threads could be renamed, so that this thread can be called "Magic: The Circular Reasoning Behind It"
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
Of course, this is up to interpretation, but as a lover of systems of magic, I had to throw my two cents in.
D&D 5th edition established facets of magic, basically what VanZoeren laid out. In the PHB these were pretty cut and dry. In XGtE, the staff is acknowledging that these lines between arcane and divine are not exact, they are simply categories we mere mortals use to make sense of the world. I, for one, would not be surprised to see a revised theurgist in UA next year The theurgist may have needed a bit more time than Divine Soul and The Celestial.
(I would also like to see a revised version of The Seeker, perhaps with a more astralogical bent.)
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
Of course, this is up to interpretation, but as a lover of systems of magic, I had to throw my two cents in.
D&D 5th edition established facets of magic, basically what VanZoeren laid out. In the PHB these were pretty cut and dry. In XGtE, the staff is acknowledging that these lines between arcane and divine are not exact, they are simply categories we mere mortals use to make sense of the world. I, for one, would not be surprised to see a revised theurgist in UA next year The theurgist may have needed a bit more time than Divine Soul and The Celestial.
(I would also like to see a revised version of The Seeker, perhaps with a more astralogical bent.)
The only UA wizard subclass that had a high enough satisfaction rating among players was the War Magic tradition, and even that one was just barely above the threshold. I'd be very surprised if the Theurgist or Lore Master turned up any time soon. Especially when the Phoenix, Sea and Stone sorcerous origins all had high enough ratings to get into a book, and the only reason they got passed over was that they needed to give each class a fair slice of Xanathar's Guide.
Jeremy talked about that on Dragon Talk two days ago on Twitch.
The game gives a clear-cut division: arcane magic and divine magic. So everything you're talking about is a personal, homebrewed fluff.
However, even if we allow that your definitions are universal, wizards of Transmutation school can heal and resurrect people by using theie transmuter stone - a purely arcane device. Therefore, wizards *do* have a way of learning how to heal. So, logically, there *can* be a subclass or a school dedicated to healing and giving a wizard access to more consistent options, not just "use this feature once a day to heal and then lose access to other benefits of this feature".
My interpretation of that is that spells are just spells and producing one is just a matter of manipulating the Weave the right way. But the way a bard plucks at the Weave isn't necessarily the way wizards do it, so there's differences in what spells they've each figured out how to produce. Manipulating the Weave in the patterns that produce spells exclusive to divine casters either isn't common knowledge, hasn't been figured out, or isn't possible using the techniques bards and wizards use.
As we established earlier, wizards are supposed to be the "pinnacle of arcane magic", or somesuch. The fiction of the game explicitly tells us so. Therefore, a wizard should be able to figure out how to cast a healing spell if a bard was able to figure it out. After all, bards are said to *dabble* in magic (hence, their limited spell list, "Magical Secrets" feature and access to wider range of weapons and armor proficiencies). Wizards, on the other hand, live and breathe magic. So they should be able to figure out a way of using the Weave in a way allowing to heal. Heck, Transmutation school already made the first step.
I know that subclass options for wizards are not as popular as the same for sorcerers and warlocks. At this point, I'm arguing purely for the sake of logic. There are two kinds of magic (arcane and divine) => arcane magic can heal, because bards, warlocks and sorcerers (arcane casters all) can heal => wizards are masters of arcane magic, according to the official books => wizards should be able to heal.
As we established earlier, wizards are supposed to be the "pinnacle of arcane magic", or somesuch. The fiction of the game explicitly tells us so. Therefore, a wizard should be able to figure out how to cast a healing spell if a bard was able to figure it out. After all, bards are said to *dabble* in magic (hence, their limited spell list, "Magical Secrets" feature and access to wider range of weapons and armor proficiencies). Wizards, on the other hand, live and breathe magic. So they should be able to figure out a way of using the Weave in a way allowing to heal. Heck, Transmutation school already made the first step.
Not sure how many times I have to say this but bard magic is clearly different. Bards use the Words of Creation, wizards don't. Bards use charisma because "Your magic comes from the heart and soul you pour into the performance of your music or oration." Wizard spellcasting has nothing to do with that. The idea that wizards should be able to figure out anything a bard's been able to figure out is nonsense, and the Player's Handbook doesn't make any claims about wizards being inherently better at magic than other arcane casters.
And we have circled back around again. It's well established that the warlock and sorcerer subclasses that are capable of traditional healing drawn much of their power from a divine source and bards, well, they're bards: a jack of all trades, dabbling as they choose. There is not yet a wizard subclass dealing with divine magic, and as we have pointed out, we'll all darned if wizards don't get that subclass in 5th edition.
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
You guys are probably right; I was giving my interpretation of the matter to see if it would resonate with anyone here as a valid enough reason for wizards not to know healing magic
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Unless you play Adventurer's League, why wouldn't you just homebrew your own subclass or spells? Seems to me that is the solution. It shouldn't matter whether everyone agrees with your interpretation. Your DM and party should be able to weigh in, because it would affect their game. But it needn't be part of official RAW.
Personally, I agree with the idea that wizards should be able to affect the bodies of cretures in certain ways. Why not? Conjure up a missing limb? Sure! Transmute some leather into sutures? You bet! Enchant microorganisms to not attack the body? Ok, probly starting to stretch a bit now. But until I work out specifically how- via homebrew with my DM- I will stick with potions and party members for healing.
The entire idea of D&D is to sit around with friends, make stuff up, and have a good time. The books merely give a sort of structure upon which to base that fun. If your brand of fun isn't found in the books: sit around with friends, make stuff up, and have a good time. :)
As a counter point. Victor Frankenstein could easily be a high level wizard. He is trying to use science arcane power to create life... and all it can create is mockeries of life. You can boost the life energy of the living, but at what expense?
If someone is dying do you just run "life energy" or will that burn them up like a too much power through a circuit board?
Just because you're the master of something arcane doesn't mean every little details is thought out. There have been times architects designed libraries and forgot to about for the weight of books, so the building had to be repurposed. CRISPR is super cool, but what happens when it edits the wrong DNA?
As a counter point. Victor Frankenstein could easily be a high level wizard. He is trying to use science arcane power to create life... and all it can create is mockeries of life. You can boost the life energy of the living, but at what expense?
If someone is dying do you just run "life energy" or will that burn them up like a too much power through a circuit board?
Just because you're the master of something arcane doesn't mean every little details is thought out. There have been times architects designed libraries and forgot to about for the weight of books, so the building had to be repurposed. CRISPR is super cool, but what happens when it edits the wrong DNA?
I read the thread, read it again and all I keep coming back to is why are you so dead set on a healing wizard. Why is this something you feel must be integral to the DnD universe as a whole. Why don't you just play something else and focus them in a very scholarly/erudite manner strict learning structures or some such.
It comes across as a whole something like "Man I LOVE chocolate, but why can't i have meat flavored chocolate, because i can have milk/white/dark/orange/lime/rose flavors."
People have said it earlier but if you want it that much everything in the books is a guideline, brew it in you have a lot of source material to work with.
Notes: Post edited to delete offensive language and meme.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Don't get me wrong, I totally understand where this is coming from. Its hard to imagine that there are no academics out there who wouldn't turn their talents to the medical field, after all. I get that, given that I'm still waiting on a Gish Sorcerer that's never probably going to happen.
Who knows? Maybe there's something with Arcane magic that just doesn't jive with the idea of life force. Bards pull from something completely different, Rangers and Druids depend on the forces of nature to do their thing, and everyone else has some kind of connection to a divine entity to use their powers. Closest thing I see to happening as a "Wizard who manipulates lifeforce" is some kind of blood magic wizard, but that probably isn't sending the kind of vibes he wants. I still think calling wizards the red headed stepchild is a pretty big exaggeration.
Yes, the title of this thread is deliberately worded to sound controversial. Sorry about that.
I can't agree with you on bards, though. Despite the fluff, bards are doing arcane magic. There is not "special bardic magic" in the game. There are only two: divine and arcane. Different casters have different ways of accessing the power source, but the power source stys the same. It's in the books. It's canon. It's integrated into every official D&D campaign out there. It's not just my opinion, it's in the goddamn books. Read the sidebar on page 205 of the Player's Handbook, please.
Not sure how many times I have to say this but bard magic is clearly different. Bards use the Words of Creation, wizards don't. Bards use charisma because "Your magic comes from the heart and soul you pour into the performance of your music or oration." Wizard spellcasting has nothing to do with that. The idea that wizards should be able to figure out anything a bard's been able to figure out is nonsense, and the Player's Handbook doesn't make any claims about wizards being inherently better at magic than other arcane casters.
And I'm not sure how many times I have to say that the game does not support this idea. PHB, page 205, sidebar: "All magic depends on the Weave, though different kinds of magic access it in a variety of ways. The spells of wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, and BARDS are commonly called ARCANE magic. These spells rely on an understanding - Iearned or intuitive - of the workings of the Weave." As for the wizards being called "better at magic": PHB, page 112, introduction to the wizard class: "Wizards are supreme magic-users"; Xanathar's Guide, page 58, also introduction to the wizard class: Only a select few people in the world are wielders of magic. Ofall those, wizards stand at the pinnacle of the craft".
Just play an Arcana Cleric, bash the Wizard down to 1 hp, mock him for being unable to heal himself. Then, as the Wizard tries to cast a save-or-die spell on your to relish in his power, counterspell it while mocking him that even you have learned the power of his ways.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
The difference basically comes down to whether you're manipulating the Weave yourself or a "divine power" is doing it for you.
My interpretation of that is that spells are just spells and producing one is just a matter of manipulating the Weave the right way. But the way a bard plucks at the Weave isn't necessarily the way wizards do it, so there's differences in what spells they've each figured out how to produce. Manipulating the Weave in the patterns that produce spells exclusive to divine casters either isn't common knowledge, hasn't been figured out, or isn't possible using the techniques bards and wizards use.
Tooltips | Snippet Code | How to Homebrew on D&D Beyond | Subclass Guide | Feature Roadmap
Astromancer's Homebrew Assembly
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
Tooltips | Snippet Code | How to Homebrew on D&D Beyond | Subclass Guide | Feature Roadmap
Astromancer's Homebrew Assembly
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
The game gives a clear-cut division: arcane magic and divine magic. So everything you're talking about is a personal, homebrewed fluff.
However, even if we allow that your definitions are universal, wizards of Transmutation school can heal and resurrect people by using theie transmuter stone - a purely arcane device. Therefore, wizards *do* have a way of learning how to heal. So, logically, there *can* be a subclass or a school dedicated to healing and giving a wizard access to more consistent options, not just "use this feature once a day to heal and then lose access to other benefits of this feature".
And we have circled back around again. It's well established that the warlock and sorcerer subclasses that are capable of traditional healing drawn much of their power from a divine source and bards, well, they're bards: a jack of all trades, dabbling as they choose. There is not yet a wizard subclass dealing with divine magic, and as we have pointed out, we'll all darned if wizards don't get that subclass in 5th edition.
Tooltips | Snippet Code | How to Homebrew on D&D Beyond | Subclass Guide | Feature Roadmap
Astromancer's Homebrew Assembly
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
You guys are probably right; I was giving my interpretation of the matter to see if it would resonate with anyone here as a valid enough reason for wizards not to know healing magic
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Unless you play Adventurer's League, why wouldn't you just homebrew your own subclass or spells? Seems to me that is the solution. It shouldn't matter whether everyone agrees with your interpretation. Your DM and party should be able to weigh in, because it would affect their game. But it needn't be part of official RAW.
Personally, I agree with the idea that wizards should be able to affect the bodies of cretures in certain ways. Why not? Conjure up a missing limb? Sure! Transmute some leather into sutures? You bet! Enchant microorganisms to not attack the body? Ok, probly starting to stretch a bit now. But until I work out specifically how- via homebrew with my DM- I will stick with potions and party members for healing.
The entire idea of D&D is to sit around with friends, make stuff up, and have a good time. The books merely give a sort of structure upon which to base that fun. If your brand of fun isn't found in the books: sit around with friends, make stuff up, and have a good time. :)
As a counter point. Victor Frankenstein could easily be a high level wizard.
He is trying to use
sciencearcane power to create life... and all it can create is mockeries of life.You can boost the life energy of the living, but at what expense?
If someone is dying do you just run "life energy" or will that burn them up like a too much power through a circuit board?
Just because you're the master of something arcane doesn't mean every little details is thought out. There have been times architects designed libraries and forgot to about for the weight of books, so the building had to be repurposed.
CRISPR is super cool, but what happens when it edits the wrong DNA?
I read the thread, read it again and all I keep coming back to is why are you so dead set on a healing wizard. Why is this something you feel must be integral to the DnD universe as a whole. Why don't you just play something else and focus them in a very scholarly/erudite manner strict learning structures or some such.
It comes across as a whole something like "Man I LOVE chocolate, but why can't i have meat flavored chocolate, because i can have milk/white/dark/orange/lime/rose flavors."
People have said it earlier but if you want it that much everything in the books is a guideline, brew it in you have a lot of source material to work with.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Don't get me wrong, I totally understand where this is coming from. Its hard to imagine that there are no academics out there who wouldn't turn their talents to the medical field, after all. I get that, given that I'm still waiting on a Gish Sorcerer that's never probably going to happen.
Who knows? Maybe there's something with Arcane magic that just doesn't jive with the idea of life force. Bards pull from something completely different, Rangers and Druids depend on the forces of nature to do their thing, and everyone else has some kind of connection to a divine entity to use their powers. Closest thing I see to happening as a "Wizard who manipulates lifeforce" is some kind of blood magic wizard, but that probably isn't sending the kind of vibes he wants. I still think calling wizards the red headed stepchild is a pretty big exaggeration.
Thank you. Finally, someone gets it.
Yes, the title of this thread is deliberately worded to sound controversial. Sorry about that.
I can't agree with you on bards, though. Despite the fluff, bards are doing arcane magic. There is not "special bardic magic" in the game. There are only two: divine and arcane. Different casters have different ways of accessing the power source, but the power source stys the same. It's in the books. It's canon. It's integrated into every official D&D campaign out there. It's not just my opinion, it's in the goddamn books. Read the sidebar on page 205 of the Player's Handbook, please.
Just play an Arcana Cleric, bash the Wizard down to 1 hp, mock him for being unable to heal himself. Then, as the Wizard tries to cast a save-or-die spell on your to relish in his power, counterspell it while mocking him that even you have learned the power of his ways.
;)
oops... mixing Theurgy, can’t learn counterspell. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Can't we just all agree to disagree? I don't think anyone's going to be convinced by the arguments here one way or another.
Yes, it seems to be the wisest course of action.