If you are going to charge a decent sum of money for access to an online character creator, then you damn well better make it easier and at least AS FUNCTIONAL as the free non-legal alternatives. It's basic business sense in the age of the internet.
You do realise Curse does not charge anything for the use of the character builder itself, don't you? You need to pay only if you want to have more than 6 character slots, subscription cost which is indeed at least largely kept by Curse, or if you want to use the character creator with official D&D published products, the price of which is most probably largely going to WotC. So, Curse itself, the developer of the tools, is not charging you to use the tools, but indeed WotC , as part of the agreement they have with Curse, is placing the already integrated and coded official content behind a paywall.
And whenever some of us actually point out HOW IT IS INFERIOR, at best we get met with 'It's getting improved "sometime"'. More often it's 'You don't UNDERSTAND!!!!! It's tough to make a product as functional as those already made sheets! Don't be ungrateful! Don't be entitled! Also, I don't even like those sheets!'
That is a reply you get mostly from users of the website, I do not think I have ever seen BadEye or any other official member of the DDB staff give that reply to anyone.
It sends a message that the video streaming company WOTC hired to build something completely unrelated doesn't actually know what their product is, doesn't know what the competition, legal or otherwise, has put out, doesn't really have a solid plan for improvement, and just wants to grab as much money in the beginning because they know that eventually most people, aside from the worst apologists, will catch on that it will ALWAYS be an inferior product.
Curse is not a video streaming company, Twitch, who owns Curse, is. Curse was born as a completely independent and fan-driven videogame mod company, for games such as World of Warcraft, Star Wars: The Old Republic and a bunch of other MMOs. They provided both aggregation and self-produced mods for several games, so I'd say they should have some coding and design experience. Also, you are making A LOT of assumptions here, that is never a good way of making your point be heard. Have you seen the actual internal Curse documents on the roadmap they have on the improvements to be done on the site and tools? Have you been following any of the livestreams BadEye has been doing in the past few months giving information on where they are at and where they want to go? Have you seen the improvements made and the additional Homebrew capabilities added to the websites since launch? That does not really sound to me as a company without a plan or not actually making improvements to their product.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
With the caveat that everyone is different and has different accessibility needs and all that, I've gotta say I'm frankly surprised that there's so many people who feel the character builder is clunky or hard to use. For my money, it's the most intuitive character builder I've used, and this includes OrcPub (which I've always found overrated, sorry), MPMB (which was great, but imo not as intuitive or helpful as DDB), and several other online tools. (I have not used Hero Lab or the 4E character builder.) I'm also currently running a campaign with a mix of experienced and new players, and they've all responded favorably to the character builder's ease of use and integration of content. I guess if someone could help me understand what exactly it is about DDB's toolset that's "clunky" or hard to use, I'd be interested in hearing it. What do the other tools do that DDB can't? After I started using DDB, I didn't really see any use to keep using MPMB's sheet, which is what I had been using before, and I never cared for OrcPub, either the first version or the newer one (which is remarkably similar to DDB from what I've seen).
What am I missing?
(Edit: and yeah, I agree the PDF export functionality is currently pretty bad, but I have faith in the next iteration.)
From what I've gathered by most complaints I see about Beyond, its that these other tools offer unlicensed content from the books for free. People have a hard time grasping how licensing between WotC and other companies work, and how the people who run Beyond (or Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds even) need to put food on their plates and can't just give content away to people who might have paid a different company money for a different product that happens to be based around the same content.
I guess if someone could help me understand what exactly it is about DDB's toolset that's "clunky" or hard to use, I'd be interested in hearing it. What do the other tools do that DDB can't?
I agree with you about what others are saying in comparison to other tools: the DDB character is really quite good if you only need to play with the D&D ruleset. The homebrew additions are adequate and still has a lot to be desired.
However, the problem my group has with it is that we always tweak the rules. One caster plays with spell points, another is using a custom subclass, etc. The flexibility just isn't there (yet - really hoping the character revamp addresses a lot of this). My group also plays online, so integration with Discord bots is a must have for us too. Because of this, I simply cannot use DDB's character sheet creator because it doesn't offer what we need to play D&D. We use dicecloud.com - the UI is clunky, but it allows us to have a fully digital character sheet with all of our custom rules.
Why do people choose to pay for Netflix and Hulu over pirating? Not because pirating is illegal, but because it's EASIER than pirating.
I think you've made two assumptions that are incorrect: that the ratio of people pirating tv/movies instead of subscribing to a streaming service is lower than the ratio of people pirating D&D material via unlicensed character building tools instead of paying for legitimate ones; and that the reason most people that don't break the law choose not to break the law has anything to do with difficulty instead of it being the simple "it's illegal, so I don't want to do it, and have never even figured out how easy it is or isn't to do." reason.
With the caveat that everyone is different and has different accessibility needs and all that, I've gotta say I'm frankly surprised that there's so many people who feel the character builder is clunky or hard to use. For my money, it's the most intuitive character builder I've used, and this includes OrcPub (which I've always found overrated, sorry), MPMB (which was great, but imo not as intuitive or helpful as DDB), and several other online tools. (I have not used Hero Lab or the 4E character builder.) I'm also currently running a campaign with a mix of experienced and new players, and they've all responded favorably to the character builder's ease of use and integration of content. I guess if someone could help me understand what exactly it is about DDB's toolset that's "clunky" or hard to use, I'd be interested in hearing it. What do the other tools do that DDB can't? After I started using DDB, I didn't really see any use to keep using MPMB's sheet, which is what I had been using before, and I never cared for OrcPub, either the first version or the newer one (which is remarkably similar to DDB from what I've seen).
What am I missing?
(Edit: and yeah, I agree the PDF export functionality is currently pretty bad, but I have faith in the next iteration.)
Hi! I am a die-hard MPMB fan, so I guess I'll list my gripes (which aren't many, but for me are deal breaking):
1) I don't want an online (or on my phone or on my tablet) character sheet. I want to print my character sheet out and scribble on it (although, for spell casting I find having an app is handy... but I am only using it like a dictionary, not a character sheet). Right now, DNDB's pdf export is hot garbage. I understand that they are working on this, which is great! I may (finally) use the character creator if/when it gets an update. 2) It is unclear in the character builder which things I need to buy in order to unlock content. Excuse me, which things I need to buy again. Because, you know, I already purchased the books before DNDB was even a thing. So, if I wanted to create something basic, say, a Human variant battle master... I can't unless I pay! The advantage with MPMB's sheet was that I could read through the books, figure out what I wanted to create, then generate it quickly and easily. Sure, it would be difficult and unintuitive if I didn't have the book, but that isn't the case (and I'm sure that isn't the case for the vast majority of people who were using it). 3) MPMB's sheet is easier to modify. Flat-out, no questions, no protests. If I want to add some crazy weapon that I've created, I don't need to go to a Homebrew menu, click through to create it and it's properties, then go to my character and add it. And I love the Homebrew aspect! It's gotten way better! And more useful and robust! 4) My main thing though is the cost. If I want full access to the character builder, then I would need to spend a significant amount of money. Why would I do that? Why would I buy the PHB again? Why would I buy the SCAG again? The DMG? The MM? Volo's? Sure, Curse and WotC need to put food on the table, but so do I and I have already purchased this content.
So I guess I just need to create more homebrew classes and races? Only they wouldn't be homebrew... they would be official and copy-pasted right outta the books. Or, a better idea: I don't waste my time with DNDB's creator and continue to use my copy of MPMB's sheet, which was only taken down because of the launch of DNDB (the "taken down for using licensed content" is hilarious to me considering how long the sheet was available on DMsguild without any issues at all).
But hey, maybe when I win the lotto I'll re-buy all this and have a grand ol' time. DNDB is a cool concept, and has some great stuff... but I just can't justify it right now, especially when the pdf exporting function is such hot garbage. I'll come back in a year and see.
One comparison to reply to your complains about having to buy content you own on physical form here in DDB:
You buy a book. Years later, this nice little thing they call eBook reader comes out. You like the idea and would like to give it a go. Lo and behold, they do not give you free access to the same book you have in your library, bought from your local bookstore. Not only that, you would technically need to buy a specific device in order to use this new technology at 100%. And on top of that, you are able to find the same digitalised book "for free" looking around the web. Outrageous right?
One more comparison, similar, but different, and possibly slightly less on-point, but still:
You buy a movie in DVD. Years later, a new way of watching movies comes about, the Blu-ray. Now again, you cannot have the Blu-ray of the movie you own on DVD for free. How's that possible?
Now, I understand that thinking you are entitled to something and finding out things are not as you thought is frustrating, but the truth of the matter is that you have several example of companies/publishers/service providers doing exactly the same, and I bet you haven't bat an eye so far. Why the outrage now?
Also, it seems pretty clear you mainly want something from DDB that was not even in the initial plans (the PDF export) and was added almost on a rush due to popular demand. You're most probably going to get something way better come the overhaul.
With the caveat that everyone is different and has different accessibility needs and all that, I've gotta say I'm frankly surprised that there's so many people who feel the character builder is clunky or hard to use. For my money, it's the most intuitive character builder I've used, and this includes OrcPub (which I've always found overrated, sorry), MPMB (which was great, but imo not as intuitive or helpful as DDB), and several other online tools. (I have not used Hero Lab or the 4E character builder.) I'm also currently running a campaign with a mix of experienced and new players, and they've all responded favorably to the character builder's ease of use and integration of content. I guess if someone could help me understand what exactly it is about DDB's toolset that's "clunky" or hard to use, I'd be interested in hearing it. What do the other tools do that DDB can't? After I started using DDB, I didn't really see any use to keep using MPMB's sheet, which is what I had been using before, and I never cared for OrcPub, either the first version or the newer one (which is remarkably similar to DDB from what I've seen).
What am I missing?
(Edit: and yeah, I agree the PDF export functionality is currently pretty bad, but I have faith in the next iteration.)
Hi! I am a die-hard MPMB fan, so I guess I'll list my gripes (which aren't many, but for me are deal breaking):
1) I don't want an online (or on my phone or on my tablet) character sheet. I want to print my character sheet out and scribble on it (although, for spell casting I find having an app is handy... but I am only using it like a dictionary, not a character sheet). Right now, DNDB's pdf export is hot garbage. I understand that they are working on this, which is great! I may (finally) use the character creator if/when it gets an update. 2) It is unclear in the character builder which things I need to buy in order to unlock content. Excuse me, which things I need to buy again. Because, you know, I already purchased the books before DNDB was even a thing. So, if I wanted to create something basic, say, a Human variant battle master... I can't unless I pay! The advantage with MPMB's sheet was that I could read through the books, figure out what I wanted to create, then generate it quickly and easily. Sure, it would be difficult and unintuitive if I didn't have the book, but that isn't the case (and I'm sure that isn't the case for the vast majority of people who were using it). 3) MPMB's sheet is easier to modify. Flat-out, no questions, no protests. If I want to add some crazy weapon that I've created, I don't need to go to a Homebrew menu, click through to create it and it's properties, then go to my character and add it. And I love the Homebrew aspect! It's gotten way better! And more useful and robust! 4) My main thing though is the cost. If I want full access to the character builder, then I would need to spend a significant amount of money. Why would I do that? Why would I buy the PHB again? Why would I buy the SCAG again? The DMG? The MM? Volo's? Sure, Curse and WotC need to put food on the table, but so do I and I have already purchased this content.
So I guess I just need to create more homebrew classes and races? Only they wouldn't be homebrew... they would be official and copy-pasted right outta the books. Or, a better idea: I don't waste my time with DNDB's creator and continue to use my copy of MPMB's sheet, which was only taken down because of the launch of DNDB (the "taken down for using licensed content" is hilarious to me considering how long the sheet was available on DMsguild without any issues at all).
But hey, maybe when I win the lotto I'll re-buy all this and have a grand ol' time. DNDB is a cool concept, and has some great stuff... but I just can't justify it right now, especially when the pdf exporting function is such hot garbage. I'll come back in a year and see.
1) Valid complaint. DDB advertised itself from the start as a digital toolset. If you are not interested in playing D&D with digital tools, then DDB is not the product for you. However, since you started off your post by saying you were a fan of another digital resource, I'm not so sure where you actually stand on that issue. That is up to you to decide.
2) I'm confused about this. You say that it is unclear which products you need to buy to use the character builder, but then say that with MPMB's sheet, you still had to look through your books. So I think you solved your own problem there. I would address your complaint about buying content "again", but LeK just covered that. Yes, it is the same content, but it's for a different medium, which again, if you are not wanting to transfer your game to that medium, then the old fashioned way of just using your books is still a completely valid way to play. No one should fault you for that if that's your preference.
3) MPMB's sheet is easier to modify for sure, as it's ultimately a fancy form-fillable PDF. However, since you said your prefer a paper sheet, it is important to note that the current PDF is also form-fillable. I know the current sheet lacks a lot of detail, but once the update comes and those details get filled in, extra customization will be as simple as changing a few lines of text (which is really what you have to normally do if you were implementing homebrew content outside of a digital resource anyway). I could say that more particular customization options are coming to DDB, but honestly I don't know any specifics, so again, it may not ultimately be a product that enhances your game.
4) This issue always kind of strikes me as odd. Even as a DM, I don't ever really find myself needing FULL access to a character creator. It's a neat toy to play with, but right now, I have 1 active character I play with in a weekly game, and like 3 characters I use for AL at cons and random game store nights. I wouldn't have to buy ALL of the books to build those characters. In fact, with the current pricing structure and ability to purchase features piecemeal, I wouldn't have to buy any complete books. I haven't mathed it out, but by my estimation, to have all of the features I actually need, I would maybe have to spend $20 or $25 once. Or if you joined a game I was playing in, you'd have access to everything for free because I turn content sharing on because I'm a super nice guy. If your issue is having to pay anything at all, well I can't really help you there. We would all like free stuff, but most times in life I find that stuff isn't usually free. When I bought my hardcover PHB, I did so understanding that the book was the complete product and that there wouldn't be new features coming later included with my purchase. It's unfortunate if anyone else is under a different impression.
You are correct in saying that entering data from the book wouldn't be "homebrew" per se, but it really wouldn't make sense to have two identical data entry systems under different names. The assumption is that most people will use it for homebrew, but I think it's cool that WotC doesn't mind letting you enter hardcover information yourself if you so choose. They could be a lot greedier about that and truly FORCE you to buy everything twice, but they at least allowed Curse to give you options to avoid that and still be able to use the product.
As far as MPMB goes, it was a nice resource to have. I used it before DDB came out. But I wasn't completely thrilled. It certainly made life a bit easier, but you ultimately still had to know what you were doing, as it would let you skip things like proficiencies if you weren't paying attention. I also was not a fan at all of the spell sheet, as it took a long time to populate, and the spell abbreviations weren't super clear. DDB blows MPMB out of the water in those 2 areas IMO. There's a lot of stuff that I really did like though, like the rules summary page. I still keep a couple of those printed out as a quick reference for my players.
But regarding it being taken down due to DDB, I don't think it was merely "for using licensed content" as you put it, but rather because they began charging for that content. The WotC staff actually seems pretty enthusiastic most times about fans creating content and resources for their own use. But MPMB launched a Patreon, which is asking for money in exchange for licensed content that they didn't have a license to sell. WotC didn't make MPMB completely stop circulating their sheet, but made it so that it could only contain SRD content, and even allowed them to include a feature where users could enter additional content on their own (just like DDB's free option).
I'm not typing this out to be condescending, so I apologize if that's how I'm coming across. I'm honestly just trying to help by adding perspective. Like I said from the start, you have some valid concerns, and ultimately it may not be a product that benefits your table. The thing about a highly-customizeable game like D&D is that there will likely never be a product that caters to every possible playstyle and preference.
Don't worry, I'm a socialist so I believe in a welfare state. I will purchase all the content here so that the devs can keep a roof over their heads as they slave away to make the site perfect enough for the multitudes of people who believe that it isn't worth spending money on.
I'm a new player and D&D Beyond has helped a TON! I've already purchased the legendary bundle and have no regrets. I also understand that this product is about 7 months old and I am looking forward to a great 2018! One could say perhaps they shouldn't have gone live with a limited feature set, sure...but... as long as progress is being made in a timely manner it will all work out in the end!
teak
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A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men... - Willy Wonka
Now, I understand that thinking you are entitled to something and finding out things are not as you thought is frustrating, but the truth of the matter is that you have several example of companies/publishers/service providers doing exactly the same, and I bet you haven't bat an eye so far. Why the outrage now?
For the most part, I agree with your post. Especially the parts about getting the digital copy of the rules just because you bought a physical book. Let me try to frame the part of the discussion that isn't about entitlement though:
DDB was presented and is still somewhat presented, especially by the community (right or wrong), as something you didn't need to purchase anything to use. This isn't completely true though: at the very least, you have to purchase the classes you want to play because those aren't homebrew-able, and even more importantly, because the character sheet is completely dependent on the class code to work. Yes, the SRD gets you a long way, but doesn't address the core point.
I paid for the legendary bundle as I wanted all of the digital assets in a searchable and shareable fashion.
There are essentially two products here:
The digital D&D content
The character sheet system
The frustration from the community is really about the character sheet requiring a purchase (or re-purchase) of content even when they don't want the digital goods - they just want to create their character using the source book on their desk. Don't misunderstand - this isn't about entitlement, it's about wanting to use the content already owned to create the character. That means the player entering in the data themselves from the book for their character.
I'm super hopeful that the updated character sheet system addresses this problem. I personally like having the hard-cover books as I strongly dislike digital stuff at the table. However, I love having the digital stuff for my online games and for prepping my at-table sessions, so I'll purchase most content twice (physical and digital).
A more flexible character sheet system also helps with UA content and custom classes - so here's hoping! :)
DDB was presented and is still somewhat presented, especially by the community (right or wrong), as something you didn't need to purchase anything to use. This isn't completely true though: at the very least, you have to purchase the classes you want to play because those aren't homebrew-able, and even more importantly, because the character sheet is completely dependent on the class code to work. Yes, the SRD gets you a long way, but doesn't address the core point...
... A more flexible character sheet system also helps with UA content and custom classes - so here's hoping! :)
I sincerely hope with all my heart that with the last paragraph of your post we are going to stop seeing the first part quoted as a reason why DDB is crap.
In my opinion it is not crap now either, as to be able create your character you can even simply pay for what you really need (that being a whooping 2 dollars per subclass, and that's it, since one can Homebrew for private use any spell and feat and background they might need now already). This is so far away from "absolutely needing to pay 300+$ to use this thing" that I don't even know where to start. That, to me, is entitlement, plain and simple.
Come the Homebrew subclasses even the need to pending those 2 dollars for the official ones will disappear, as one will be able to create privately all of them.
It's seriously becoming harder and harder to not get annoyed with this kind of critiques to DDB, when there are already things in the works, announced and everything that will solve what they cry as foul. And you have seen my replies, I always try to put things into perspective, but it seems people do not care in the least and will just keep on crying foul for the sake of it.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I sincerely hope with all my heart that with the last paragraph of your post we are going to stop seeing the first part quoted as a reason why DDB is crap.
Heh, I wouldn't hold my breath. ;)
In my opinion it is not crap now either, as to be able create your character you can even simply pay for what you really need (that being a whooping 2 dollars per subclass, and that's it, since one can Homebrew for private use any spell and feat and background they might need now already). This is so far away from "absolutely needing to pay 300+$ to use this thing" that I don't even know where to start. That, to me, is entitlement, plain and simple.
I agree that it's definitely not crap, and if you use it for only stuff that's by the book - it's fairly good. There is a lot of over dramatizing of how much it actually costs you. Some of that is DDB's fault as it's not all that clear, but the vast majority of it is just lazy complaining.
Come the Homebrew subclasses even the need to pending those 2 dollars for the official ones will disappear, as one will be able to create privately all of them.
It's seriously becoming harder and harder to not get annoyed with this kind of critiques to DDB, when there are already things in the works, announced and everything that will solve what they cry as foul. And you have seen my replies, I always try to put things into perspective, but it seems people do not care in the least and will just keep on crying foul for the sake of it.
Sadly it happens on both sides. People complaining about double-purchasing when they are just really looking for free handouts. The flip-side is that valid criticism is often met with, "it's in-progress", or "slated to happen", or worse, simply calling people entitled.
As a newcomer (the last time I played D&D was about 20 years ago), I have to say that, while initially a little confusing, I didn’t have any, serious, problems with DNDBeyond. Honestly, I like it. It’s not perfect, but no product is. I’m a die-hard GURPS gamer, so I’m used to levels of crunch that most people find terrifying. But, my group had been asking for something simpler. My sister recommended D&D 5e and I looked into it. (Choice two is the new Doctor Who game, not the old FASA one.)
I bought all the stuff digitally, because I really like digital books. When the bombs fall, I’m not expecting to live, so it’s not that big a deal.
I will admit that I have a problem with the idea of “homebrews.” I come from a system where that’s just not needed. The system is robust enough to handle it all, and when someone “homebrews” something, it’s a warning that they don’t understand something, and they’re going to need to go back to the drawing board. So, while it may be possible to “fix” some of my issues with “homebrews” that shouldn’t be the answer. The answer should be in the core tools.
Existing problems:
GM Override: the character I made, an Elf Bard, has never seen another Elf, so shouldn’t have the Elvish language. But, neither myself, nor the GM, can go into my sheet and make those changes on-line. We have to put them in notes, and try not to forget them. It seems that if you’re trying to deviate from the norm, the toolset isn’t willing to help you.
Re-arrangement: on the character sheet, I’d like to have the “add custom attack” listed below my existing attack, so I don’t have to scroll to them. Also, I’d like to re-arrange my attacks, so my Rapier is listed before my Dagger, please.
Spell Attacks inconsistent: So, my bard has Vicious Mockery, and that’s visible in my spell attacks, but the Racial Trait Cantrip is under a dropdown, in a second section of attacks. I have to expand it three times to get all the information that I can get just by looking at Vicious Mockery. Mrnh? Should that cantrip just be listed, visibly, under the Spell Attacks? Like Vicious Mockery?
Re-arrangement, part two: Speaking of re-arranging, I’d love to be able to move the boxes on the digital sheet around, so I can choose where things are. I’d like my equipment and spells to be above my description and notes.
Suggestions:
On the on-line character sheet, if the character’s header (name, prof bonus, AC, etc, the bar with HP) could only go to the top of the screen, then stay there, it would make the game a little easier. Additionally, if there was a “back to top” on the “mobile” version of the sheet (I use two monitors, and usually have the sheets attached to the right-side of my 2nd monitor) it would help to get back to them.
On the “mobile” version, please leave a path so we can easily go up a level when going through compendium content. It really is a nuisance having to scroll to the top of the page, go back into content, reselect what I was reading, and then go to the next chapter.
PDF/off-line versions of the books, please. I’m not using this on a phone or small tablet. I’m not using an IOS or Android device. All my stuff is Win10. I play, on-line through TableTop Simulator, so most of the time, it’s not an issue. But, the times when I don’t have ready access to the internet (happens a fair bit), I’m completely without content, and can’t continue reading the books. I can, however, easily read all of my GURPSand Doctor Who books, since they’re PDFs.
(Mercy, this set of fora really doesn't like the way I write my posts).
This discussion has actually been really useful to me, because it honestly has been a little hard for me to understand some of the criticisms which, to be completely honest, sometimes feel more like people repeating talking points than actually engaging with how DDB actually works. So I want to thank those folks who've taken the time to go a little more in-depth about what it is about the character builder that they don't like.
There seem to be two primary complaints that I think are legitimate, even if I don't agree with them: 1.) the character builder isn't flexible enough, particularly without the ability to homebrew classes, and 2.) there are people who wanted a different form of digital content (PDFs, mostly) which they can't get here and probably won't ever be getting (at least until 6e is out and all the 5e stuff goes up on DMsGuild haha). I think 2.) just kind of is what it is, and not really a discussion worth having because it doesn't actually have anything to do with DDB but rather WotC's market strategies, etc. Of course there's also a third complaint, which is strictly based around not paying for things you already own, which is usually more about principle than the reality of what DDB is/how it works/what it will do in the future. While I sympathize with this to a limited degree (I've long been a proponent for there being some kind of increased brand synergy between DDB and WotC which helps out people who own the books) I think this argument also is what it is, and is probably best ignored, because it never ever seems to get anywhere. No one's minds are changed and the argument just repeats every couple weeks it seems like.
I see how 1.) can come off as entitlement, but this discussion has helped me see that this isn't really the case. I mean, I'm sure it is sometimes, but I do think it's a fair criticism to say "this was sold to me as x, but really it's y." I do think that there's some truth to that, and I do think that as a community of early adopters and fans of DDB we could probably do a better job of understanding where folks are coming from with that. I think that part of the divide comes from folks who only/want need that one part vs. folks who've really embraced the whole new ecosystem aspect of DDB. I'm definitely in the latter camp, so for me it's hard to see why someone would want only the character builder without all the other cool stuff DDB does. But I get that just because I feel that way doesn't mean everyone is going to.
I would be curious, once the ability to homebrew classes/subclasses is there (since we know it's coming), will that change how people in that first camp feel about DDB at all? It seems like that plus better PDF export options (which we know is also coming) addresses the most common complaints in this thread. I mean, I could see people who still feel like having to program in a whole class vs. using something like MPMB's sheet or OrcPub (if they get licensing rights [although then I would guess OrcPub would cost about the same as DDB, without the added benefits]) is more work than it's worth, and that's fair, tho that probably goes back to the same response I would give to complaints 2.) and 3.), that DDB probably just isn't for you, and that's okay.
Where I'm coming from is I'm just getting really burned out of seeing this arguments happening over and over again, and I want to see what we as a community can do to maybe approach things differently or message better or whatever. This is one of the least toxic D&D communities on the internet, and I'd personally love to keep it that way.
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DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder) Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
Yeah, I agree with LeK. I'm actively trying to be more diplomatic, but I get a sense that a lot of people are being willingly obtuse. They're taking the most extreme example and acting like it's the only option. When we try to explain that there is actually a wide range of payment options, it turns into a big circular argument where it feels like they are now fishing for any and every reason to be upset.
And I don't know where the impression that it would be free came from. Even during the early advertisements, I always figured it would be a service that we would have to pay for. I'm really not trying to be rude, but I don't think it was ever presented as free as much as they didn't discuss pricing (as few non-food advertisements do), and people got their hopes up on their own.
DDB was presented and is still somewhat presented, especially by the community (right or wrong), as something you didn't need to purchase anything to use. This isn't completely true though...
It IS completely true though. Like with Roll20, you don't have to purchase anything at all to use the service just because you have the option ofpurchasing additional content for it (how greedy for WotC to give away 357 spells for free when there might be 45 more locked behind their books, or to offer 360+ free monster statblocks for a DM to use when the Monster Manual might contain 62 more). It's not like SRD-based services become unusable just because you don't get free flumphs. The problem is people don't want the free rules and SRD content that WotC so generously lets services like this give away. They want even more content, content that Curse/Twitch doesn't even have the rights to freely distribute because the content ultimately belongs to WotC instead.
The frustration some people have is that they paid a different company (a book store) money for a different product (a physical book). Then when another company comes along and puts in all the extra work in to make a fancy digital service like this (along with going through all the work and costs associated with obtaining proper licensing agreements for this additional content), those users see the new shiny product and want it for free even though it is not what they originally paid for and its not who they even originally paid.
And lets be real here, that is entitlement. You speak of people who want to ignore the digital goods and just create their character using the books. They can do that already. They have rules in front of them in the format they purchased, and WotC already provides people the free means to create endless characters and print them off (even Beyond provides this). D&D Beyond is a supplemental tool you can use to help run your games more efficiently, it isn't a requirement. I may not own the PHB content for Beyond, but there is nothing stopping me from using Beyond to create a Necromancer Wizard or War Domain Cleric just because I can't automatically select those options in a drop down. I'd just plop the archetype features into the other notes section or use the pdf exporter and put them there.
People just don't want to spend a few minutes typing out their characters' features if they think they can get someone else to do it for them for free.
DDB was presented and is still somewhat presented, especially by the community (right or wrong), as something you didn't need to purchase anything to use. This isn't completely true though...
It IS completely true though. Like with Roll20, you don't have to purchase anything at all to use the service just because you have the option ofpurchasing additional content for it (how greedy for WotC to give away 357 spells for free when there might be 45 more locked behind their books, or to offer 360+ free monster statblocks for a DM to use when the Monster Manual might contain 62 more). It's not like SRD-based services become unusable just because you don't get free flumphs. The problem is people don't want the free rules and SRD content that WotC so generously lets services like this give away. They want even more content, content that Curse/Twitch doesn't even have the rights to freely distribute because the content ultimately belongs to WotC instead.
The frustration some people have is that they paid a different company (a book store) money for a different product (a physical book). Then when another company comes along and puts in all the extra work in to make a fancy digital service like this (along with going through all the work and costs associated with obtaining proper licensing agreements for this additional content), those users see the new shiny product and want it for free even though it is not what they originally paid for and its not who they even originally paid.
And lets be real here, that is entitlement. You speak of people who want to ignore the digital goods and just create their character using the books. They can do that already. They have rules in front of them in the format they purchased, and WotC already provides people the free means to create endless characters and print them off (even Beyond provides this). D&D Beyond is a supplemental tool you can use to help run your games more efficiently, it isn't a requirement. I may not own the PHB content for Beyond, but there is nothing stopping me from using Beyond to create a Necromancer Wizard or War Domain Cleric just because I can't automatically select those options in a drop down. I'd just plop the archetype features into the other notes section or use the pdf exporter and put them there.
People just don't want to spend a few minutes typing out their characters' features if they think they can get someone else to do it for them for free.
This is the heart of the matter. People feel ripped off for something they were never promised. Or they want a product that DDB never promised to offer (PDFs).
The question is not "Is this a bad deal?" because as it has been illustrated over and over again, it is very plainly not. The question people should be asking is "Is the difference this will make at my table worth the cost?" That is a legitimate question, and one that some people are going to honestly say no to. And that's fine. Every table is different and has different needs.
DDB was presented and is still somewhat presented, especially by the community (right or wrong), as something you didn't need to purchase anything to use. This isn't completely true though...
It IS completely true though. Like with Roll20, you don't have to purchase anything at all to use the service just because you have the option ofpurchasing additional content for it (how greedy for WotC to give away 357 spells for free when there might be 45 more locked behind their books, or to offer 360+ free monster statblocks for a DM to use when the Monster Manual might contain 62 more). It's not like SRD-based services become unusable just because you don't get free flumphs. The problem is people don't want the free rules and SRD content that WotC so generously lets services like this give away. They want even more content, content that Curse/Twitch doesn't even have the rights to freely distribute because the content ultimately belongs to WotC instead.
These are the types of responses that are so frustrating. You've ignored everything that was written and fallback into "I want Curse to give me stuff for free."
I own the legacy bundle, I have the master-tier subscription, and the character building tools are mostly useless to me. I've explained why that's so, over and over again. It comes down to the fundamental issue that the current design of the tool is dependent of the purchase of the content here. If that's how Curse wants to have it setup, that's fine and is up to them. They are currently in the process of doing a re-design, which they've said will allow for a lot more flexibility, so hopefully that actually makes it useable for me. If not, I'll keep using what I'm using.
You compare it with Roll20... the character sheet here is not like the one Roll20; I cannot actually do the work myself to enter in class calculations on DDB, where as I can do that for Roll20.
The frustration some people have is that they paid a different company (a book store) money for a different product (a physical book). Then when another company comes along and puts in all the extra work in to make a fancy digital service like this (along with going through all the work and costs associated with obtaining proper licensing agreements for this additional content), those users see the new shiny product and want it for free even though it is not what they originally paid for and its not who they even originally paid.
I've already said that I don't agree with those types of comments. That is the frustration I see from a lot of posts, but there are also those, like myself, that are simply not happy with the actual offering of the character sheet design.
And lets be real here, that is entitlement. You speak of people who want to ignore the digital goods and just create their character using the books. They can do that already. They have rules in front of them in the format they purchased, and WotC already provides people the free means to create endless characters and print them off (even Beyond provides this). D&D Beyond is a supplemental tool you can use to help run your games more efficiently, it isn't a requirement. I may not own the PHB content for Beyond, but there is nothing stopping me from using Beyond to create a Necromancer Wizard or War Domain Cleric just because I can't automatically select those options in a drop down. I'd just plop the archetype features into the other notes section or use the pdf exporter and put them there.
People just don't want to spend a few minutes typing out their characters' features if they think they can get someone else to do it for them for free.
I use dicecloud.com for all my characters. It contains only the SRD content. I type in all of my features (or copy them from DDB) all of the time. Again, you are conflating two different arguments into a single one.
How are you tracking your class feature abilities with the character sheet? You aren't because you cannot do it (putting it in the notes is another hack to workaround the limitations of the tool). You can't add limited use abilities as class features, you can't add proficiencies to your character from the sheet, you can't grant skill proficiencies, etc... some of this is hackable via homebrew items, but only to some extent. This is the other side is arguing about with the character sheet. It's simply not sufficient for building a character with the PHB that you own, even if you type everything in.
So yeah, people that started out paying for the subscription fee found that it offered them no additional abilities. If you want to have your class features for abilities like Portent to show up, you have to pay for the class because there is no ability for you manually add those class features yourself to your character sheet.
It's posts like yours that are part of the problem - you want to argue that you can do everything without purchasing, but people are just too lazy to do it. But the fact is, you simply cannot because there's a lot of stuff you just can't do manually. Again, I really hope the character sheet re-design fixes these issues. Homebrew subclasses might help with it too. Otherwise, I'm simply paying a subscription fee so I can share my digital books with my gaming group.
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You need to pay only if you want to have more than 6 character slots, subscription cost which is indeed at least largely kept by Curse, or if you want to use the character creator with official D&D published products, the price of which is most probably largely going to WotC. So, Curse itself, the developer of the tools, is not charging you to use the tools, but indeed WotC , as part of the agreement they have with Curse, is placing the already integrated and coded official content behind a paywall.
Also, you are making A LOT of assumptions here, that is never a good way of making your point be heard. Have you seen the actual internal Curse documents on the roadmap they have on the improvements to be done on the site and tools? Have you been following any of the livestreams BadEye has been doing in the past few months giving information on where they are at and where they want to go? Have you seen the improvements made and the additional Homebrew capabilities added to the websites since launch?
That does not really sound to me as a company without a plan or not actually making improvements to their product.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
With the caveat that everyone is different and has different accessibility needs and all that, I've gotta say I'm frankly surprised that there's so many people who feel the character builder is clunky or hard to use. For my money, it's the most intuitive character builder I've used, and this includes OrcPub (which I've always found overrated, sorry), MPMB (which was great, but imo not as intuitive or helpful as DDB), and several other online tools. (I have not used Hero Lab or the 4E character builder.) I'm also currently running a campaign with a mix of experienced and new players, and they've all responded favorably to the character builder's ease of use and integration of content. I guess if someone could help me understand what exactly it is about DDB's toolset that's "clunky" or hard to use, I'd be interested in hearing it. What do the other tools do that DDB can't? After I started using DDB, I didn't really see any use to keep using MPMB's sheet, which is what I had been using before, and I never cared for OrcPub, either the first version or the newer one (which is remarkably similar to DDB from what I've seen).
What am I missing?
(Edit: and yeah, I agree the PDF export functionality is currently pretty bad, but I have faith in the next iteration.)
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
From what I've gathered by most complaints I see about Beyond, its that these other tools offer unlicensed content from the books for free. People have a hard time grasping how licensing between WotC and other companies work, and how the people who run Beyond (or Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds even) need to put food on their plates and can't just give content away to people who might have paid a different company money for a different product that happens to be based around the same content.
Thanks, that was helpful.
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
I think you've made two assumptions that are incorrect: that the ratio of people pirating tv/movies instead of subscribing to a streaming service is lower than the ratio of people pirating D&D material via unlicensed character building tools instead of paying for legitimate ones; and that the reason most people that don't break the law choose not to break the law has anything to do with difficulty instead of it being the simple "it's illegal, so I don't want to do it, and have never even figured out how easy it is or isn't to do." reason.
2) It is unclear in the character builder which things I need to buy in order to unlock content. Excuse me, which things I need to buy again. Because, you know, I already purchased the books before DNDB was even a thing. So, if I wanted to create something basic, say, a Human variant battle master... I can't unless I pay! The advantage with MPMB's sheet was that I could read through the books, figure out what I wanted to create, then generate it quickly and easily. Sure, it would be difficult and unintuitive if I didn't have the book, but that isn't the case (and I'm sure that isn't the case for the vast majority of people who were using it).
3) MPMB's sheet is easier to modify. Flat-out, no questions, no protests. If I want to add some crazy weapon that I've created, I don't need to go to a Homebrew menu, click through to create it and it's properties, then go to my character and add it. And I love the Homebrew aspect! It's gotten way better! And more useful and robust!
4) My main thing though is the cost. If I want full access to the character builder, then I would need to spend a significant amount of money. Why would I do that? Why would I buy the PHB again? Why would I buy the SCAG again? The DMG? The MM? Volo's? Sure, Curse and WotC need to put food on the table, but so do I and I have already purchased this content.
One comparison to reply to your complains about having to buy content you own on physical form here in DDB:
You buy a book. Years later, this nice little thing they call eBook reader comes out. You like the idea and would like to give it a go. Lo and behold, they do not give you free access to the same book you have in your library, bought from your local bookstore. Not only that, you would technically need to buy a specific device in order to use this new technology at 100%. And on top of that, you are able to find the same digitalised book "for free" looking around the web. Outrageous right?
One more comparison, similar, but different, and possibly slightly less on-point, but still:
You buy a movie in DVD. Years later, a new way of watching movies comes about, the Blu-ray. Now again, you cannot have the Blu-ray of the movie you own on DVD for free. How's that possible?
Now, I understand that thinking you are entitled to something and finding out things are not as you thought is frustrating, but the truth of the matter is that you have several example of companies/publishers/service providers doing exactly the same, and I bet you haven't bat an eye so far. Why the outrage now?
Also, it seems pretty clear you mainly want something from DDB that was not even in the initial plans (the PDF export) and was added almost on a rush due to popular demand. You're most probably going to get something way better come the overhaul.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
1) Valid complaint. DDB advertised itself from the start as a digital toolset. If you are not interested in playing D&D with digital tools, then DDB is not the product for you. However, since you started off your post by saying you were a fan of another digital resource, I'm not so sure where you actually stand on that issue. That is up to you to decide.
2) I'm confused about this. You say that it is unclear which products you need to buy to use the character builder, but then say that with MPMB's sheet, you still had to look through your books. So I think you solved your own problem there. I would address your complaint about buying content "again", but LeK just covered that. Yes, it is the same content, but it's for a different medium, which again, if you are not wanting to transfer your game to that medium, then the old fashioned way of just using your books is still a completely valid way to play. No one should fault you for that if that's your preference.
3) MPMB's sheet is easier to modify for sure, as it's ultimately a fancy form-fillable PDF. However, since you said your prefer a paper sheet, it is important to note that the current PDF is also form-fillable. I know the current sheet lacks a lot of detail, but once the update comes and those details get filled in, extra customization will be as simple as changing a few lines of text (which is really what you have to normally do if you were implementing homebrew content outside of a digital resource anyway). I could say that more particular customization options are coming to DDB, but honestly I don't know any specifics, so again, it may not ultimately be a product that enhances your game.
4) This issue always kind of strikes me as odd. Even as a DM, I don't ever really find myself needing FULL access to a character creator. It's a neat toy to play with, but right now, I have 1 active character I play with in a weekly game, and like 3 characters I use for AL at cons and random game store nights. I wouldn't have to buy ALL of the books to build those characters. In fact, with the current pricing structure and ability to purchase features piecemeal, I wouldn't have to buy any complete books. I haven't mathed it out, but by my estimation, to have all of the features I actually need, I would maybe have to spend $20 or $25 once. Or if you joined a game I was playing in, you'd have access to everything for free because I turn content sharing on because I'm a super nice guy. If your issue is having to pay anything at all, well I can't really help you there. We would all like free stuff, but most times in life I find that stuff isn't usually free. When I bought my hardcover PHB, I did so understanding that the book was the complete product and that there wouldn't be new features coming later included with my purchase. It's unfortunate if anyone else is under a different impression.
You are correct in saying that entering data from the book wouldn't be "homebrew" per se, but it really wouldn't make sense to have two identical data entry systems under different names. The assumption is that most people will use it for homebrew, but I think it's cool that WotC doesn't mind letting you enter hardcover information yourself if you so choose. They could be a lot greedier about that and truly FORCE you to buy everything twice, but they at least allowed Curse to give you options to avoid that and still be able to use the product.
As far as MPMB goes, it was a nice resource to have. I used it before DDB came out. But I wasn't completely thrilled. It certainly made life a bit easier, but you ultimately still had to know what you were doing, as it would let you skip things like proficiencies if you weren't paying attention. I also was not a fan at all of the spell sheet, as it took a long time to populate, and the spell abbreviations weren't super clear. DDB blows MPMB out of the water in those 2 areas IMO. There's a lot of stuff that I really did like though, like the rules summary page. I still keep a couple of those printed out as a quick reference for my players.
But regarding it being taken down due to DDB, I don't think it was merely "for using licensed content" as you put it, but rather because they began charging for that content. The WotC staff actually seems pretty enthusiastic most times about fans creating content and resources for their own use. But MPMB launched a Patreon, which is asking for money in exchange for licensed content that they didn't have a license to sell. WotC didn't make MPMB completely stop circulating their sheet, but made it so that it could only contain SRD content, and even allowed them to include a feature where users could enter additional content on their own (just like DDB's free option).
I'm not typing this out to be condescending, so I apologize if that's how I'm coming across. I'm honestly just trying to help by adding perspective. Like I said from the start, you have some valid concerns, and ultimately it may not be a product that benefits your table. The thing about a highly-customizeable game like D&D is that there will likely never be a product that caters to every possible playstyle and preference.
Don't worry, I'm a socialist so I believe in a welfare state. I will purchase all the content here so that the devs can keep a roof over their heads as they slave away to make the site perfect enough for the multitudes of people who believe that it isn't worth spending money on.
My generosity and benevolence are endless.
I'm a new player and D&D Beyond has helped a TON! I've already purchased the legendary bundle and have no regrets. I also understand that this product is about 7 months old and I am looking forward to a great 2018! One could say perhaps they shouldn't have gone live with a limited feature set, sure...but... as long as progress is being made in a timely manner it will all work out in the end!
teak
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men...
- Willy Wonka
For the most part, I agree with your post. Especially the parts about getting the digital copy of the rules just because you bought a physical book. Let me try to frame the part of the discussion that isn't about entitlement though:
DDB was presented and is still somewhat presented, especially by the community (right or wrong), as something you didn't need to purchase anything to use. This isn't completely true though: at the very least, you have to purchase the classes you want to play because those aren't homebrew-able, and even more importantly, because the character sheet is completely dependent on the class code to work. Yes, the SRD gets you a long way, but doesn't address the core point.
I paid for the legendary bundle as I wanted all of the digital assets in a searchable and shareable fashion.
There are essentially two products here:
The frustration from the community is really about the character sheet requiring a purchase (or re-purchase) of content even when they don't want the digital goods - they just want to create their character using the source book on their desk. Don't misunderstand - this isn't about entitlement, it's about wanting to use the content already owned to create the character. That means the player entering in the data themselves from the book for their character.
I'm super hopeful that the updated character sheet system addresses this problem. I personally like having the hard-cover books as I strongly dislike digital stuff at the table. However, I love having the digital stuff for my online games and for prepping my at-table sessions, so I'll purchase most content twice (physical and digital).
A more flexible character sheet system also helps with UA content and custom classes - so here's hoping! :)
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
As a newcomer (the last time I played D&D was about 20 years ago), I have to say that, while initially a little confusing, I didn’t have any, serious, problems with DNDBeyond. Honestly, I like it. It’s not perfect, but no product is. I’m a die-hard GURPS gamer, so I’m used to levels of crunch that most people find terrifying. But, my group had been asking for something simpler. My sister recommended D&D 5e and I looked into it. (Choice two is the new Doctor Who game, not the old FASA one.)
I bought all the stuff digitally, because I really like digital books. When the bombs fall, I’m not expecting to live, so it’s not that big a deal.
I will admit that I have a problem with the idea of “homebrews.” I come from a system where that’s just not needed. The system is robust enough to handle it all, and when someone “homebrews” something, it’s a warning that they don’t understand something, and they’re going to need to go back to the drawing board. So, while it may be possible to “fix” some of my issues with “homebrews” that shouldn’t be the answer. The answer should be in the core tools.
Existing problems:
GM Override: the character I made, an Elf Bard, has never seen another Elf, so shouldn’t have the Elvish language. But, neither myself, nor the GM, can go into my sheet and make those changes on-line. We have to put them in notes, and try not to forget them. It seems that if you’re trying to deviate from the norm, the toolset isn’t willing to help you.
Re-arrangement: on the character sheet, I’d like to have the “add custom attack” listed below my existing attack, so I don’t have to scroll to them. Also, I’d like to re-arrange my attacks, so my Rapier is listed before my Dagger, please.
Spell Attacks inconsistent: So, my bard has Vicious Mockery, and that’s visible in my spell attacks, but the Racial Trait Cantrip is under a dropdown, in a second section of attacks. I have to expand it three times to get all the information that I can get just by looking at Vicious Mockery. Mrnh? Should that cantrip just be listed, visibly, under the Spell Attacks? Like Vicious Mockery?
Re-arrangement, part two: Speaking of re-arranging, I’d love to be able to move the boxes on the digital sheet around, so I can choose where things are. I’d like my equipment and spells to be above my description and notes.
Suggestions:
On the on-line character sheet, if the character’s header (name, prof bonus, AC, etc, the bar with HP) could only go to the top of the screen, then stay there, it would make the game a little easier. Additionally, if there was a “back to top” on the “mobile” version of the sheet (I use two monitors, and usually have the sheets attached to the right-side of my 2nd monitor) it would help to get back to them.
On the “mobile” version, please leave a path so we can easily go up a level when going through compendium content. It really is a nuisance having to scroll to the top of the page, go back into content, reselect what I was reading, and then go to the next chapter.
PDF/off-line versions of the books, please. I’m not using this on a phone or small tablet. I’m not using an IOS or Android device. All my stuff is Win10. I play, on-line through TableTop Simulator, so most of the time, it’s not an issue. But, the times when I don’t have ready access to the internet (happens a fair bit), I’m completely without content, and can’t continue reading the books. I can, however, easily read all of my GURPS and Doctor Who books, since they’re PDFs.
(Mercy, this set of fora really doesn't like the way I write my posts).
This discussion has actually been really useful to me, because it honestly has been a little hard for me to understand some of the criticisms which, to be completely honest, sometimes feel more like people repeating talking points than actually engaging with how DDB actually works. So I want to thank those folks who've taken the time to go a little more in-depth about what it is about the character builder that they don't like.
There seem to be two primary complaints that I think are legitimate, even if I don't agree with them: 1.) the character builder isn't flexible enough, particularly without the ability to homebrew classes, and 2.) there are people who wanted a different form of digital content (PDFs, mostly) which they can't get here and probably won't ever be getting (at least until 6e is out and all the 5e stuff goes up on DMsGuild haha). I think 2.) just kind of is what it is, and not really a discussion worth having because it doesn't actually have anything to do with DDB but rather WotC's market strategies, etc. Of course there's also a third complaint, which is strictly based around not paying for things you already own, which is usually more about principle than the reality of what DDB is/how it works/what it will do in the future. While I sympathize with this to a limited degree (I've long been a proponent for there being some kind of increased brand synergy between DDB and WotC which helps out people who own the books) I think this argument also is what it is, and is probably best ignored, because it never ever seems to get anywhere. No one's minds are changed and the argument just repeats every couple weeks it seems like.
I see how 1.) can come off as entitlement, but this discussion has helped me see that this isn't really the case. I mean, I'm sure it is sometimes, but I do think it's a fair criticism to say "this was sold to me as x, but really it's y." I do think that there's some truth to that, and I do think that as a community of early adopters and fans of DDB we could probably do a better job of understanding where folks are coming from with that. I think that part of the divide comes from folks who only/want need that one part vs. folks who've really embraced the whole new ecosystem aspect of DDB. I'm definitely in the latter camp, so for me it's hard to see why someone would want only the character builder without all the other cool stuff DDB does. But I get that just because I feel that way doesn't mean everyone is going to.
I would be curious, once the ability to homebrew classes/subclasses is there (since we know it's coming), will that change how people in that first camp feel about DDB at all? It seems like that plus better PDF export options (which we know is also coming) addresses the most common complaints in this thread. I mean, I could see people who still feel like having to program in a whole class vs. using something like MPMB's sheet or OrcPub (if they get licensing rights [although then I would guess OrcPub would cost about the same as DDB, without the added benefits]) is more work than it's worth, and that's fair, tho that probably goes back to the same response I would give to complaints 2.) and 3.), that DDB probably just isn't for you, and that's okay.
Where I'm coming from is I'm just getting really burned out of seeing this arguments happening over and over again, and I want to see what we as a community can do to maybe approach things differently or message better or whatever. This is one of the least toxic D&D communities on the internet, and I'd personally love to keep it that way.
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
Yeah, I agree with LeK. I'm actively trying to be more diplomatic, but I get a sense that a lot of people are being willingly obtuse. They're taking the most extreme example and acting like it's the only option. When we try to explain that there is actually a wide range of payment options, it turns into a big circular argument where it feels like they are now fishing for any and every reason to be upset.
And I don't know where the impression that it would be free came from. Even during the early advertisements, I always figured it would be a service that we would have to pay for. I'm really not trying to be rude, but I don't think it was ever presented as free as much as they didn't discuss pricing (as few non-food advertisements do), and people got their hopes up on their own.
The frustration some people have is that they paid a different company (a book store) money for a different product (a physical book). Then when another company comes along and puts in all the extra work in to make a fancy digital service like this (along with going through all the work and costs associated with obtaining proper licensing agreements for this additional content), those users see the new shiny product and want it for free even though it is not what they originally paid for and its not who they even originally paid.
And lets be real here, that is entitlement. You speak of people who want to ignore the digital goods and just create their character using the books. They can do that already. They have rules in front of them in the format they purchased, and WotC already provides people the free means to create endless characters and print them off (even Beyond provides this). D&D Beyond is a supplemental tool you can use to help run your games more efficiently, it isn't a requirement. I may not own the PHB content for Beyond, but there is nothing stopping me from using Beyond to create a Necromancer Wizard or War Domain Cleric just because I can't automatically select those options in a drop down. I'd just plop the archetype features into the other notes section or use the pdf exporter and put them there.
People just don't want to spend a few minutes typing out their characters' features if they think they can get someone else to do it for them for free.
This is the heart of the matter. People feel ripped off for something they were never promised. Or they want a product that DDB never promised to offer (PDFs).
The question is not "Is this a bad deal?" because as it has been illustrated over and over again, it is very plainly not. The question people should be asking is "Is the difference this will make at my table worth the cost?" That is a legitimate question, and one that some people are going to honestly say no to. And that's fine. Every table is different and has different needs.